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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Two Questions

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  • Christopher Orr
    I usually make the sign of the cross over the food and say, Lord Jesus Christ, bless the food and drink of Thy servant, now and ever and unto the ages and
    Message 1 of 29 , Nov 6, 2007
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      I usually make the sign of the cross over the food and say, "Lord Jesus
      Christ, bless the food and drink of Thy servant, now and ever and unto the
      ages and ages. Amen."

      Of course, I am bad at praying before meals, generally, so this is a little
      haphazard on my part.

      The standard Prayer Book prayer I usually hear used is:

      We thank Thee, O Christ our God, that Thou hast satisfied us with Thy
      earthly gifts; deprive us not of Thy heavenly kingdom, but as Thou earnest
      among Thy disciples, O Saviour, and gavest them peace, come to us and save
      us.

      There is not a hard a fast rule, though, I also hear people praying the
      Lord's Prayer, "O Heavenly King..." or "It is truly meet..."

      The Greek priest in my PA church advises the kids to simply "put on their
      cross" (make the sign of the cross) before meals.

      Christopher



      On 11/6/07, phos_hilarion@... <phos_hilarion@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > First, a friend asked me why the Orthodox are not as fond of statues (3d)
      > as they are of other two dimensional art. I had found an answer online
      > somewhere but since lost the link. Maybe you have some resources or
      > explanations that would help?
      >
      > Second, I have been wondering what prayers Orthodox say at mealtime. I
      > don't imagine they pray the ol' "Come Lord Jesus". I am not asking for the
      > theoretical side (we could pray any one of these number of prayers -
      > althought that would also be appreciated), but for a practical side (what do
      > *you* pray?).
      >
      > Yours in Christ
      > __________________________________________________________
      > Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!
      > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us<http://www.reallivemoms.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us>
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Rosemarie Lieffring
      phos, Here are a couple of sentences I grabbed from a wiki article on icons about the Orthodox and statues: In the Eastern Orthodox tradition, only flat images
      Message 2 of 29 , Nov 6, 2007
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        phos,

        Here are a couple of sentences I grabbed from a wiki article on icons about
        the Orthodox and statues:

        In the Eastern Orthodox tradition, only flat images or bas relief images are
        used. The Greeks <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks>, having a long, pagan
        tradition of statuary, found the sensual quality of three dimensional
        representations did more to glorify the human aspect of the flesh rather
        than the divine nature of the spirit and so prohibitions were created
        against statuary. The Romans <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire>, on
        the other hand, did not adopt these prohibitions and so we still have
        statuary among the Roman
        Catholics<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church>to this
        day. Because the Greeks rejected statuary, the Byzantine style of
        iconography was developed in which figures were stylized in a manner that
        emphasized their holiness rather than their humanity. Symbolism allowed the
        icon to present highly complex material in a very simple way, making it
        possible to educate even the illiterate in theology.

        I hope someone here can develop this a little more for you. It is truly a
        shame that someone who's spiritual father is actually an iconographer can't
        step up to the plate and do more for you on this subject. Someday I'll have
        to learn to express better what I have been taught!

        Our home suffers from church divorce, my husband is Lutheran and I am a
        convert to Orthodoxy, so when it comes to mealtime prayers, my Lutheran
        husband does some extemporaneous prayer. Sometimes, when there are other
        Lutherans around, he does "Come Lord Jesus." When I am by myself or with my
        Orthodox friends we pray "Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Lord have
        mercy. O Lord, bless the food and drink of these thy servants..." (as does
        Christopher)

        Our bishop however prays something very similar to the Roman Catholic prayer
        we used to pray...."Bless us O Lord and these thy gifts..." but I don't know
        his exact wording. It isn't 100% the same...actually it might be closer to
        Luther's prayer before meals.

        When our family gets together for Christmas we pray "Bless us O Lord" for my
        brother's family, "Come Lord Jesus" for my family and last year we added "O
        Lord bless" for me! But before that my brother adds in his own
        extemporaneous prayers. It's a regular smorgasbord of prayer! :)

        On 11/6/07, phos_hilarion@... <phos_hilarion@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > First, a friend asked me why the Orthodox are not as fond of statues (3d)
        > as they are of other two dimensional art. I had found an answer online
        > somewhere but since lost the link. Maybe you have some resources or
        > explanations that would help?
        >
        > Second, I have been wondering what prayers Orthodox say at mealtime. I
        > don't imagine they pray the ol' "Come Lord Jesus". I am not asking for the
        > theoretical side (we could pray any one of these number of prayers -
        > althought that would also be appreciated), but for a practical side (what do
        > *you* pray?).
        >
        > Yours in Christ
        > __________________________________________________________
        > Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!
        > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us<http://www.reallivemoms.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us>
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Anastasia Theodoridis
        We pray, Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages. Then, before the Amen, we usually pray
        Message 3 of 29 , Nov 6, 2007
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          We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the "Amen," we usually pray some extemporaneous things, always including, "Thank You for Your love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings of that day. "Thank you for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.

          Anastasia




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Christopher Orr
          There are no canons against the use of statuary, and there are isolated examples here and there of their use in Orthodox history. The 2-D form just seemed to
          Message 4 of 29 , Nov 6, 2007
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            There are no canons against the use of statuary, and there are isolated
            examples here and there of their use in Orthodox history. The 2-D form just
            seemed to avail itself better to the 'depths' of Christian theology. The
            arguments back and forth during the Iconoclast Controversy often touched on
            whether the divine and human natures could be expressed in art, and then
            what that meant for religious art. A 2-D form and realistic portature
            styles tend to overemphasize the lesser of the 2 natures in Christ: the
            human nature. Byzantine iconography attempts to show us what is really
            going on behind 'just' the outward, physical forms of Christ and the saints,
            and the events in their lives. this is why perspective is reversed and why
            a stylized form was adopted - sculpture just seems to 'realistic' and
            naturalistic, though it would be interesting to see what would have happened
            had Rodin and modern sculpture been an available tool for religious artists
            to the mainstream of Christian art in the first millenium (which was
            centered in the centers of civilization in the eastern Roman Empire, not in
            the city of Rome and the hinterlands of the Western Empire). It should
            always be remembered that naturalistic portraiture was a skill that the
            ancients had mastered, e.g., the Egyptian funeral portraits, even the Christ
            Pantocrator on Sinai. A more 'primitive' style was purposefully adopted
            because it better matched the theology underlying sacred art and its
            veneration.

            Just like most early icons (except for those in places such as Sinai, e.g.
            the famous Christ Pantocrator in encaustic at St. Catherine's), any statues
            were likely destroyed during the iconoclast controversy - especially since a
            statue is harder to move and hide than a painted board.

            Christopher


            On 11/6/07, Rosemarie Lieffring <rose.lieffring@...> wrote:
            >
            > phos,
            >
            > Here are a couple of sentences I grabbed from a wiki article on icons
            > about
            > the Orthodox and statues:
            >
            > In the Eastern Orthodox tradition, only flat images or bas relief images
            > are
            > used. The Greeks < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks>, having a long,
            > pagan
            > tradition of statuary, found the sensual quality of three dimensional
            > representations did more to glorify the human aspect of the flesh rather
            > than the divine nature of the spirit and so prohibitions were created
            > against statuary. The Romans < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire>,
            > on
            > the other hand, did not adopt these prohibitions and so we still have
            > statuary among the Roman
            > Catholics< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church>to this
            > day. Because the Greeks rejected statuary, the Byzantine style of
            > iconography was developed in which figures were stylized in a manner that
            > emphasized their holiness rather than their humanity. Symbolism allowed
            > the
            > icon to present highly complex material in a very simple way, making it
            > possible to educate even the illiterate in theology.
            >
            > I hope someone here can develop this a little more for you. It is truly a
            > shame that someone who's spiritual father is actually an iconographer
            > can't
            > step up to the plate and do more for you on this subject. Someday I'll
            > have
            > to learn to express better what I have been taught!
            >
            > Our home suffers from church divorce, my husband is Lutheran and I am a
            > convert to Orthodoxy, so when it comes to mealtime prayers, my Lutheran
            > husband does some extemporaneous prayer. Sometimes, when there are other
            > Lutherans around, he does "Come Lord Jesus." When I am by myself or with
            > my
            > Orthodox friends we pray "Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Lord have
            > mercy. O Lord, bless the food and drink of these thy servants..." (as does
            > Christopher)
            >
            > Our bishop however prays something very similar to the Roman Catholic
            > prayer
            > we used to pray...."Bless us O Lord and these thy gifts..." but I don't
            > know
            > his exact wording. It isn't 100% the same...actually it might be closer to
            > Luther's prayer before meals.
            >
            > When our family gets together for Christmas we pray "Bless us O Lord" for
            > my
            > brother's family, "Come Lord Jesus" for my family and last year we added
            > "O
            > Lord bless" for me! But before that my brother adds in his own
            > extemporaneous prayers. It's a regular smorgasbord of prayer! :)
            >
            > On 11/6/07, phos_hilarion@... <phos_hilarion%40hotmail.com> <
            > phos_hilarion@... <phos_hilarion%40hotmail.com>> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > First, a friend asked me why the Orthodox are not as fond of statues
            > (3d)
            > > as they are of other two dimensional art. I had found an answer online
            > > somewhere but since lost the link. Maybe you have some resources or
            > > explanations that would help?
            > >
            > > Second, I have been wondering what prayers Orthodox say at mealtime. I
            > > don't imagine they pray the ol' "Come Lord Jesus". I am not asking for
            > the
            > > theoretical side (we could pray any one of these number of prayers -
            > > althought that would also be appreciated), but for a practical side
            > (what do
            > > *you* pray?).
            > >
            > > Yours in Christ
            > > __________________________________________________________
            > > Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!
            > > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
            > <http://www.reallivemoms.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us><
            > http://www.reallivemoms.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us>
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • sr72000
            I would agree with these explanations of Orthodox use of statuary...and I would point out that crucifixes are not at all uncommon in Orthodox use, which are a
            Message 5 of 29 , Nov 6, 2007
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              I would agree with these explanations of Orthodox use of
              statuary...and I would point out that crucifixes are not at all
              uncommon in Orthodox use, which are a type of statuary.

              One explanation for the preference for icons I heard a while back was
              that they are generally more able than statuary to convey the reality
              that we can't see visibly: the kingdom of heaven. Background colors
              are called to be "heavenly;" rooms are turned inside-out, to portray
              our participation in what is depicted; light radiates FROM Christ and
              the saints, as He shines within them, rather than upon them from outside.

              Randy



              --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Orr"
              <xcjorr@...> wrote:
              >
              > There are no canons against the use of statuary, and there are isolated
              > examples here and there of their use in Orthodox history. The 2-D
              form just
              > seemed to avail itself better to the 'depths' of Christian theology.
              The
              > arguments back and forth during the Iconoclast Controversy often
              touched on
              > whether the divine and human natures could be expressed in art, and then
              > what that meant for religious art. A 2-D form and realistic portature
              > styles tend to overemphasize the lesser of the 2 natures in Christ: the
              > human nature. Byzantine iconography attempts to show us what is really
              > going on behind 'just' the outward, physical forms of Christ and the
              saints,
              > and the events in their lives. this is why perspective is reversed
              and why
              > a stylized form was adopted - sculpture just seems to 'realistic' and
              > naturalistic, though it would be interesting to see what would have
              happened
              > had Rodin and modern sculpture been an available tool for religious
              artists
              > to the mainstream of Christian art in the first millenium (which was
              > centered in the centers of civilization in the eastern Roman Empire,
              not in
              > the city of Rome and the hinterlands of the Western Empire). It should
              > always be remembered that naturalistic portraiture was a skill that the
              > ancients had mastered, e.g., the Egyptian funeral portraits, even
              the Christ
              > Pantocrator on Sinai. A more 'primitive' style was purposefully adopted
              > because it better matched the theology underlying sacred art and its
              > veneration.
              >
              > Just like most early icons (except for those in places such as
              Sinai, e.g.
              > the famous Christ Pantocrator in encaustic at St. Catherine's), any
              statues
              > were likely destroyed during the iconoclast controversy - especially
              since a
              > statue is harder to move and hide than a painted board.
              >
              > Christopher
              >
              >
              > On 11/6/07, Rosemarie Lieffring <rose.lieffring@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > phos,
              > >
              > > Here are a couple of sentences I grabbed from a wiki article on icons
              > > about
              > > the Orthodox and statues:
              > >
              > > In the Eastern Orthodox tradition, only flat images or bas relief
              images
              > > are
              > > used. The Greeks < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks>, having a
              long,
              > > pagan
              > > tradition of statuary, found the sensual quality of three dimensional
              > > representations did more to glorify the human aspect of the flesh
              rather
              > > than the divine nature of the spirit and so prohibitions were created
              > > against statuary. The Romans <
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire>,
              > > on
              > > the other hand, did not adopt these prohibitions and so we still have
              > > statuary among the Roman
              > > Catholics< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church>to this
              > > day. Because the Greeks rejected statuary, the Byzantine style of
              > > iconography was developed in which figures were stylized in a
              manner that
              > > emphasized their holiness rather than their humanity. Symbolism
              allowed
              > > the
              > > icon to present highly complex material in a very simple way,
              making it
              > > possible to educate even the illiterate in theology.
              > >
              > > I hope someone here can develop this a little more for you. It is
              truly a
              > > shame that someone who's spiritual father is actually an iconographer
              > > can't
              > > step up to the plate and do more for you on this subject. Someday I'll
              > > have
              > > to learn to express better what I have been taught!
              > >
              > > Our home suffers from church divorce, my husband is Lutheran and I
              am a
              > > convert to Orthodoxy, so when it comes to mealtime prayers, my
              Lutheran
              > > husband does some extemporaneous prayer. Sometimes, when there are
              other
              > > Lutherans around, he does "Come Lord Jesus." When I am by myself
              or with
              > > my
              > > Orthodox friends we pray "Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Lord have
              > > mercy. O Lord, bless the food and drink of these thy servants..."
              (as does
              > > Christopher)
              > >
              > > Our bishop however prays something very similar to the Roman Catholic
              > > prayer
              > > we used to pray...."Bless us O Lord and these thy gifts..." but I
              don't
              > > know
              > > his exact wording. It isn't 100% the same...actually it might be
              closer to
              > > Luther's prayer before meals.
              > >
              > > When our family gets together for Christmas we pray "Bless us O
              Lord" for
              > > my
              > > brother's family, "Come Lord Jesus" for my family and last year we
              added
              > > "O
              > > Lord bless" for me! But before that my brother adds in his own
              > > extemporaneous prayers. It's a regular smorgasbord of prayer! :)
              > >
              > > On 11/6/07, phos_hilarion@... <phos_hilarion%40hotmail.com> <
              > > phos_hilarion@... <phos_hilarion%40hotmail.com>> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > First, a friend asked me why the Orthodox are not as fond of statues
              > > (3d)
              > > > as they are of other two dimensional art. I had found an answer
              online
              > > > somewhere but since lost the link. Maybe you have some resources or
              > > > explanations that would help?
              > > >
              > > > Second, I have been wondering what prayers Orthodox say at
              mealtime. I
              > > > don't imagine they pray the ol' "Come Lord Jesus". I am not
              asking for
              > > the
              > > > theoretical side (we could pray any one of these number of prayers -
              > > > althought that would also be appreciated), but for a practical side
              > > (what do
              > > > *you* pray?).
              > > >
              > > > Yours in Christ
              > > > __________________________________________________________
              > > > Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!
              > > > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
              > > <http://www.reallivemoms.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us><
              > > http://www.reallivemoms.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us>
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Christopher Orr
              One thing to note is that there are no shadows in icons and the sky is gold - the Kingdom. Christopher ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
              Message 6 of 29 , Nov 7, 2007
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                One thing to note is that there are no shadows in icons and the sky is gold
                - the Kingdom.

                Christopher


                On 11/6/07, sr72000 <stortford@...> wrote:
                >
                > I would agree with these explanations of Orthodox use of
                > statuary...and I would point out that crucifixes are not at all
                > uncommon in Orthodox use, which are a type of statuary.
                >
                > One explanation for the preference for icons I heard a while back was
                > that they are generally more able than statuary to convey the reality
                > that we can't see visibly: the kingdom of heaven. Background colors
                > are called to be "heavenly;" rooms are turned inside-out, to portray
                > our participation in what is depicted; light radiates FROM Christ and
                > the saints, as He shines within them, rather than upon them from outside.
                >
                > Randy
                >
                > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > "Christopher Orr"
                > <xcjorr@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > There are no canons against the use of statuary, and there are isolated
                > > examples here and there of their use in Orthodox history. The 2-D
                > form just
                > > seemed to avail itself better to the 'depths' of Christian theology.
                > The
                > > arguments back and forth during the Iconoclast Controversy often
                > touched on
                > > whether the divine and human natures could be expressed in art, and then
                > > what that meant for religious art. A 2-D form and realistic portature
                > > styles tend to overemphasize the lesser of the 2 natures in Christ: the
                > > human nature. Byzantine iconography attempts to show us what is really
                > > going on behind 'just' the outward, physical forms of Christ and the
                > saints,
                > > and the events in their lives. this is why perspective is reversed
                > and why
                > > a stylized form was adopted - sculpture just seems to 'realistic' and
                > > naturalistic, though it would be interesting to see what would have
                > happened
                > > had Rodin and modern sculpture been an available tool for religious
                > artists
                > > to the mainstream of Christian art in the first millenium (which was
                > > centered in the centers of civilization in the eastern Roman Empire,
                > not in
                > > the city of Rome and the hinterlands of the Western Empire). It should
                > > always be remembered that naturalistic portraiture was a skill that the
                > > ancients had mastered, e.g., the Egyptian funeral portraits, even
                > the Christ
                > > Pantocrator on Sinai. A more 'primitive' style was purposefully adopted
                > > because it better matched the theology underlying sacred art and its
                > > veneration.
                > >
                > > Just like most early icons (except for those in places such as
                > Sinai, e.g.
                > > the famous Christ Pantocrator in encaustic at St. Catherine's), any
                > statues
                > > were likely destroyed during the iconoclast controversy - especially
                > since a
                > > statue is harder to move and hide than a painted board.
                > >
                > > Christopher
                > >
                > >
                > > On 11/6/07, Rosemarie Lieffring <rose.lieffring@...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > phos,
                > > >
                > > > Here are a couple of sentences I grabbed from a wiki article on icons
                > > > about
                > > > the Orthodox and statues:
                > > >
                > > > In the Eastern Orthodox tradition, only flat images or bas relief
                > images
                > > > are
                > > > used. The Greeks < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks>, having a
                > long,
                > > > pagan
                > > > tradition of statuary, found the sensual quality of three dimensional
                > > > representations did more to glorify the human aspect of the flesh
                > rather
                > > > than the divine nature of the spirit and so prohibitions were created
                > > > against statuary. The Romans <
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire>,
                > > > on
                > > > the other hand, did not adopt these prohibitions and so we still have
                > > > statuary among the Roman
                > > > Catholics< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church>to this
                > > > day. Because the Greeks rejected statuary, the Byzantine style of
                > > > iconography was developed in which figures were stylized in a
                > manner that
                > > > emphasized their holiness rather than their humanity. Symbolism
                > allowed
                > > > the
                > > > icon to present highly complex material in a very simple way,
                > making it
                > > > possible to educate even the illiterate in theology.
                > > >
                > > > I hope someone here can develop this a little more for you. It is
                > truly a
                > > > shame that someone who's spiritual father is actually an iconographer
                > > > can't
                > > > step up to the plate and do more for you on this subject. Someday I'll
                > > > have
                > > > to learn to express better what I have been taught!
                > > >
                > > > Our home suffers from church divorce, my husband is Lutheran and I
                > am a
                > > > convert to Orthodoxy, so when it comes to mealtime prayers, my
                > Lutheran
                > > > husband does some extemporaneous prayer. Sometimes, when there are
                > other
                > > > Lutherans around, he does "Come Lord Jesus." When I am by myself
                > or with
                > > > my
                > > > Orthodox friends we pray "Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Lord have
                > > > mercy. O Lord, bless the food and drink of these thy servants..."
                > (as does
                > > > Christopher)
                > > >
                > > > Our bishop however prays something very similar to the Roman Catholic
                > > > prayer
                > > > we used to pray...."Bless us O Lord and these thy gifts..." but I
                > don't
                > > > know
                > > > his exact wording. It isn't 100% the same...actually it might be
                > closer to
                > > > Luther's prayer before meals.
                > > >
                > > > When our family gets together for Christmas we pray "Bless us O
                > Lord" for
                > > > my
                > > > brother's family, "Come Lord Jesus" for my family and last year we
                > added
                > > > "O
                > > > Lord bless" for me! But before that my brother adds in his own
                > > > extemporaneous prayers. It's a regular smorgasbord of prayer! :)
                > > >
                > > > On 11/6/07, phos_hilarion@... <phos_hilarion%40hotmail.com> <
                > > > phos_hilarion@... <phos_hilarion%40hotmail.com>> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > First, a friend asked me why the Orthodox are not as fond of statues
                > > > (3d)
                > > > > as they are of other two dimensional art. I had found an answer
                > online
                > > > > somewhere but since lost the link. Maybe you have some resources or
                > > > > explanations that would help?
                > > > >
                > > > > Second, I have been wondering what prayers Orthodox say at
                > mealtime. I
                > > > > don't imagine they pray the ol' "Come Lord Jesus". I am not
                > asking for
                > > > the
                > > > > theoretical side (we could pray any one of these number of prayers -
                > > > > althought that would also be appreciated), but for a practical side
                > > > (what do
                > > > > *you* pray?).
                > > > >
                > > > > Yours in Christ
                > > > > __________________________________________________________
                > > > > Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!
                > > > > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us<http://www.reallivemoms.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us>
                > > > <http://www.reallivemoms.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us><
                > > > http://www.reallivemoms.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us>
                > > > >
                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • krolechka
                In our family, we usually do this: Our Father , Glory... and Lord, bless! with a sign of cross (onto ourselves and onto the food). ... (3d) as they are of
                Message 7 of 29 , Nov 7, 2007
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                  In our family, we usually do this: "Our Father", "Glory..." and "Lord,
                  bless!" with a sign of cross (onto ourselves and onto the food).

                  --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, <phos_hilarion@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > First, a friend asked me why the Orthodox are not as fond of statues
                  (3d) as they are of other two dimensional art. I had found an answer
                  online somewhere but since lost the link. Maybe you have some
                  resources or explanations that would help?
                • Brian Fink
                  What about Ruba dub dub, thanks for the grub ? ... From: Anastasia Theodoridis To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                  Message 8 of 29 , Nov 8, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    What about "Ruba dub dub, thanks for the grub"?



                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Anastasia Theodoridis <anastasiatheo01@...>
                    To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 4:11:01 PM
                    Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Two Questions

                    We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the "Amen," we usually pray some extemporaneous things, always including, "Thank You for Your love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings of that day. "Thank you for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.

                    Anastasia

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • daved.driscoll
                    Yes. I m not sure of the intended tone--but, seriously--my wayward younger 16-year-old little brother was very much brought back to the fold by such
                    Message 9 of 29 , Nov 8, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Yes. I'm not sure of the intended tone--but, seriously--my "wayward"
                      younger 16-year-old little brother was very much brought "back to the
                      fold" by such informalities. It has its place.
                      --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Brian Fink <brfinkster@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > What about "Ruba dub dub, thanks for the grub"?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message ----
                      > From: Anastasia Theodoridis anastasiatheo01@...
                      > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 4:11:01 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Two Questions
                      >
                      > We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy
                      servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the
                      "Amen," we usually pray some extemporaneous things, always including,
                      "Thank You for Your love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings
                      of that day. "Thank you for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.
                      >
                      > Anastasia
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • JWF
                      In the Western Rite, we commonly say this prayer before meals: Bless us, O Lord, and these thy gifts which we are about to receive from thy bounty, through
                      Message 10 of 29 , Nov 8, 2007
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                        In the Western Rite, we commonly say this prayer before meals:



                        Bless us, O Lord, and these thy gifts which we are about to receive from thy
                        bounty, through Christ our Lord.



                        Apparently Luther used some close variation of this in his Small Catechism.



                        There is also a longer set of prayers, which vary seasonally, from monastic
                        usage.





                        Fr John W Fenton

                        Priest, Holy Incarnation Antiochian Orthodox Christian Church

                        <mailto:frfenton@...> frfenton@...

                        http://HolyIncarnation.org <http://holyincarnation.org/>

                        <mailto:frfenton@...>

                        _____

                        From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                        Theodoridis
                        Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 4:11 PM
                        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Two Questions



                        We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy servants, for
                        You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the "Amen," we usually
                        pray some extemporaneous things, always including, "Thank You for Your
                        love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings of that day. "Thank you
                        for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.

                        Anastasia

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • James
                        ... from thy ... I ve used this prayer for several years now, since I spotted it in the little red prayer book that the Antiochian Archdiocese puts out. It
                        Message 11 of 29 , Nov 8, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "JWF" <frfenton@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > In the Western Rite, we commonly say this prayer before meals:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Bless us, O Lord, and these thy gifts which we are about to receive
                          from thy
                          > bounty, through Christ our Lord.
                          >


                          I've used this prayer for several years now, since I spotted it in the
                          little red prayer book that the Antiochian Archdiocese puts out. It
                          was already familiar.

                          First I say the Lord's Prayer, crossing myself (unless the situation
                          seems that it would appear a spectacle or showy), and then "Bless us,
                          O Lord.." making the sign of the cross over the food.
                        • James
                          I was reminded in an offline note that I probably should not worry so much about what others think and go ahead and cross myself. It seems my Priest said
                          Message 12 of 29 , Nov 9, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I was reminded in an offline note that I probably should not worry
                            so much about what others think and go ahead and cross myself. It
                            seems my Priest said essentially the same thing in a sermon awhile
                            back. May the Lord strengthen my resolve and help me remember to do
                            this.

                            Yeah, I probably still have some of that old Lutheran "don't draw
                            attention to oneself" mentality going, huh?

                            James/JiMi

                            p.s. - Thanks to Peter for reminding me I'm not in Lake Woebegone


                            --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "James" <jimi@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "JWF" <frfenton@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > In the Western Rite, we commonly say this prayer before meals:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Bless us, O Lord, and these thy gifts which we are about to
                            receive
                            > from thy
                            > > bounty, through Christ our Lord.
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            > I've used this prayer for several years now, since I spotted it in
                            the
                            > little red prayer book that the Antiochian Archdiocese puts out.
                            It
                            > was already familiar.
                            >
                            > First I say the Lord's Prayer, crossing myself (unless the
                            situation
                            > seems that it would appear a spectacle or showy), and then "Bless
                            us,
                            > O Lord.." making the sign of the cross over the food.
                            >
                          • Christopher Orr
                            I make the sign of the cross over my food because it is less conspicuous. I have also been struck by a comment made by the late Fr. John Krestiankin in the
                            Message 13 of 29 , Nov 9, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I make the sign of the cross over my food because it is less conspicuous.

                              I have also been struck by a comment made by the late Fr. John Krestiankin
                              in the book of his letters, "May God Give you Wisdom" (St Herman Press), to
                              believing spouses of unbelievers. He said, essentially, don't go on too far
                              ahead. The same can be true of unbelievers around us in everyday life - we
                              can't be see as such odd ducks that we are disregarded. The Letter to
                              Diognetus states clearly that we live as other men in various countries, but
                              are always citizens only of heaven. In the world, but not of the world. I
                              tend to prefer to be as 'normal' as the next guy insofar as I can remain an
                              Orthodox Christian, never hiding, but never affecting differences to make a
                              point. When St. Anthony the Great walked through Alexandria preaching
                              without words, he was simply himself, in his regular, poor clothes, walking;
                              he wasn't prostrating, and crossing, and raising his hands as an orans in
                              prayer, etc. He was simply a Christian, walking.

                              That being said, crossing oneself in prayer at any times should never be
                              dissuaded. I often do so walking down the hallway of my office, on the
                              street, etc., but as a means to bless myself with the cross and not to
                              testify to others - and many take such actions to be a conscious attempt to
                              make unbelievers uncomfortable or as a 'witness'.

                              Christopher


                              On 11/9/07, James <jimi@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I was reminded in an offline note that I probably should not worry
                              > so much about what others think and go ahead and cross myself. It
                              > seems my Priest said essentially the same thing in a sermon awhile
                              > back. May the Lord strengthen my resolve and help me remember to do
                              > this.
                              >
                              > Yeah, I probably still have some of that old Lutheran "don't draw
                              > attention to oneself" mentality going, huh?
                              >
                              > James/JiMi
                              >
                              > p.s. - Thanks to Peter for reminding me I'm not in Lake Woebegone
                              >
                              > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                              > "James" <jimi@...>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                              > "JWF" <frfenton@>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > In the Western Rite, we commonly say this prayer before meals:
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Bless us, O Lord, and these thy gifts which we are about to
                              > receive
                              > > from thy
                              > > > bounty, through Christ our Lord.
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > I've used this prayer for several years now, since I spotted it in
                              > the
                              > > little red prayer book that the Antiochian Archdiocese puts out.
                              > It
                              > > was already familiar.
                              > >
                              > > First I say the Lord's Prayer, crossing myself (unless the
                              > situation
                              > > seems that it would appear a spectacle or showy), and then "Bless
                              > us,
                              > > O Lord.." making the sign of the cross over the food.
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • phos_hilarion@hotmail.com
                              Thank you, everyone, for sharing what you pray! As the Desert Fathers say, I was greatly edified. On being a witness... People are rarely converted because a
                              Message 14 of 29 , Nov 9, 2007
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                                Thank you, everyone, for sharing what you pray! As the Desert Fathers say, I was greatly edified.
                                On being a witness...
                                People are rarely converted because a stranger presses the Gospel in their face (or makes the sign of the cross in public). The more likely reason people convert is because they have a friend or family member that can be a constant witness to them. Quite fitting that they learn about the relationship Christ has with men through the relationship of the Christian to themselves.
                                Thank you for being friends to me.

                                Yours in Christ,
                                phos








                                To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.comFrom: xcjorr@...: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:35:09 -0500Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions





                                I make the sign of the cross over my food because it is less conspicuous.I have also been struck by a comment made by the late Fr. John Krestiankinin the book of his letters, "May God Give you Wisdom" (St Herman Press), tobelieving spouses of unbelievers. He said, essentially, don't go on too farahead. The same can be true of unbelievers around us in everyday life - wecan't be see as such odd ducks that we are disregarded. The Letter toDiognetus states clearly that we live as other men in various countries, butare always citizens only of heaven. In the world, but not of the world. Itend to prefer to be as 'normal' as the next guy insofar as I can remain anOrthodox Christian, never hiding, but never affecting differences to make apoint. When St. Anthony the Great walked through Alexandria preachingwithout words, he was simply himself, in his regular, poor clothes, walking;he wasn't prostrating, and crossing, and raising his hands as an orans inprayer, etc. He was simply a Christian, walking.That being said, crossing oneself in prayer at any times should never bedissuaded. I often do so walking down the hallway of my office, on thestreet, etc., but as a means to bless myself with the cross and not totestify to others - and many take such actions to be a conscious attempt tomake unbelievers uncomfortable or as a 'witness'.ChristopherOn 11/9/07, James <jimi@...> wrote:>> I was reminded in an offline note that I probably should not worry> so much about what others think and go ahead and cross myself. It> seems my Priest said essentially the same thing in a sermon awhile> back. May the Lord strengthen my resolve and help me remember to do> this.>> Yeah, I probably still have some of that old Lutheran "don't draw> attention to oneself" mentality going, huh?>> James/JiMi>> p.s. - Thanks to Peter for reminding me I'm not in Lake Woebegone>> --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,> "James" <jimi@...>> wrote:> >> > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,> "JWF" <frfenton@>> > wrote:> > >> > > In the Western Rite, we commonly say this prayer before meals:> > >> > >> > >> > > Bless us, O Lord, and these thy gifts which we are about to> receive> > from thy> > > bounty, through Christ our Lord.> > >> >> >> > I've used this prayer for several years now, since I spotted it in> the> > little red prayer book that the Antiochian Archdiocese puts out.> It> > was already familiar.> >> > First I say the Lord's Prayer, crossing myself (unless the> situation> > seems that it would appear a spectacle or showy), and then "Bless> us,> > O Lord.." making the sign of the cross over the food.> >>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                _________________________________________________________________
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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Lisa
                                with respect to blessing food/crossing oneself in public (and being deeply in the Lutheran-don t-draw-attention-to-yourself mind) what do you non-clergy do
                                Message 15 of 29 , Nov 9, 2007
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                                  with respect to blessing food/crossing oneself in public (and being
                                  deeply in the Lutheran-don't-draw-attention-to-yourself mind)

                                  what do you non-clergy do when in a situation like going out to lunch
                                  or dinner with co-workers? Pray silently, cross yourself ...? (and I am
                                  making a distinction between coworkers and other friends you might
                                  share meals with)

                                  Lisa
                                • Brian Fink
                                  Dear Dave, Im a sleep deprived father of three... I cant do anything seriously anymore. Brian ... From: daved.driscoll To:
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Nov 10, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Dear Dave,
                                    Im a sleep deprived father of three... I cant do anything seriously anymore.

                                    Brian


                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: daved.driscoll <NorthlandWords@...>
                                    To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2007 1:01:18 PM
                                    Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                                    Yes. I'm not sure of the intended tone--but, seriously--my "wayward"
                                    younger 16-year-old little brother was very much brought "back to the
                                    fold" by such informalities. It has its place.
                                    --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, Brian Fink <brfinkster@ ...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > What about "Ruba dub dub, thanks for the grub"?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message ----
                                    > From: Anastasia Theodoridis anastasiatheo01@ ...
                                    > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                    > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 4:11:01 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Two Questions
                                    >
                                    > We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy
                                    servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the
                                    "Amen," we usually pray some extemporaneous things, always including,
                                    "Thank You for Your love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings
                                    of that day. "Thank you for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.
                                    >
                                    > Anastasia
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Anastasia Theodoridis
                                    Dave, I ve known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry about what he means. ... Anastasia [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Nov 10, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Dave, I've known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry about what he means.

                                      :-)

                                      Anastasia



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Northland Words
                                      Hello Anastasia- Thanks for the note and the concern. I wasn t worried, but concurring. Freedom and familiarity with Him, while insolent, is perhaps no more
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Nov 11, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hello Anastasia-

                                        Thanks for the note and the concern. I wasn't worried, but concurring.
                                        Freedom and familiarity with Him, while insolent, is perhaps no more
                                        insolent than all our other human attempts to honor Him, even when
                                        undertaken with what we feel as earnest solemnity. It is only by His Grace
                                        that He accepts our solemn prayers rather than laughing at them. (But I
                                        probably chose an unfortunate e-mail to chime in.)



                                        Thanks for all your posts-I read them eagerly.

                                        Daved



                                        _____

                                        From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                        [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                                        Theodoridis
                                        Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 7:47 AM
                                        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions



                                        Dave, I've known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry
                                        about what he means.

                                        :-)

                                        Anastasia

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Northland Words
                                        Thanks, Brian- My seven children regularly trundle me off to bed, these days, so I lack that clarity of humor that sleep deprivation so graciously provides.
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Nov 11, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Thanks, Brian-

                                          My seven children regularly trundle me off to bed, these days, so I lack
                                          that clarity of humor that sleep deprivation so graciously provides. Enjoy
                                          it. I was glad to see your rubba dub dub (which I understand to be an Early
                                          Slovakian phrase meaning rubba dub dub).



                                          I can still see my father trying to pat his head, rub his stomach, and fold
                                          his hands-all the while addressing this jocular thanksgiving to His Gracious
                                          Creator. At the same time, my "this-church-junk-is-a-bunch-of-stuff"
                                          brother laughing and joining my father in thanksgiving. My note was
                                          probably out of place in this solemn forum. Nonetheless: Yeah God!

                                          Thanks,

                                          Daved



                                          _____

                                          From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                          [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Fink
                                          Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 6:14 AM
                                          To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions



                                          Dear Dave,
                                          Im a sleep deprived father of three... I cant do anything seriously anymore.

                                          Brian

                                          ----- Original Message ----
                                          From: daved.driscoll <NorthlandWords@ <mailto:NorthlandWords%40acegroup.cc>
                                          acegroup.cc>
                                          To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          t@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2007 1:01:18 PM
                                          Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                                          Yes. I'm not sure of the intended tone--but, seriously--my "wayward"
                                          younger 16-year-old little brother was very much brought "back to the
                                          fold" by such informalities. It has its place.
                                          --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, Brian Fink <brfinkster@ ...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > What about "Ruba dub dub, thanks for the grub"?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message ----
                                          > From: Anastasia Theodoridis anastasiatheo01@ ...
                                          > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                          > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 4:11:01 PM
                                          > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Two Questions
                                          >
                                          > We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy
                                          servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the
                                          "Amen," we usually pray some extemporaneous things, always including,
                                          "Thank You for Your love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings
                                          of that day. "Thank you for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.
                                          >
                                          > Anastasia
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Northland Words
                                          er . . . I obviously meant his [my dad s] Gracious Creator, not His Gracious Creator. I trust that God, in His beneficence, will forgive yet another
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Nov 11, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            er . . . I obviously meant "his [my dad's] Gracious Creator," not "His
                                            Gracious Creator." I trust that God, in His beneficence, will forgive yet
                                            another insult from me. Yikes.

                                            _____

                                            From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                            [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Northland Words
                                            Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:06 PM
                                            To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions



                                            Thanks, Brian-

                                            My seven children regularly trundle me off to bed, these days, so I lack
                                            that clarity of humor that sleep deprivation so graciously provides. Enjoy
                                            it. I was glad to see your rubba dub dub (which I understand to be an Early
                                            Slovakian phrase meaning rubba dub dub).

                                            I can still see my father trying to pat his head, rub his stomach, and fold
                                            his hands-all the while addressing this jocular thanksgiving to His Gracious
                                            Creator. At the same time, my "this-church-junk-is-a-bunch-of-stuff"
                                            brother laughing and joining my father in thanksgiving. My note was
                                            probably out of place in this solemn forum. Nonetheless: Yeah God!

                                            Thanks,

                                            Daved

                                            _____

                                            From: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            t@yahoogroups.com
                                            [mailto:LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Fink
                                            Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 6:14 AM
                                            To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            t@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                                            Dear Dave,
                                            Im a sleep deprived father of three... I cant do anything seriously anymore.

                                            Brian

                                            ----- Original Message ----
                                            From: daved.driscoll <NorthlandWords@ <mailto:NorthlandWords%40acegroup.cc>
                                            acegroup.cc>
                                            To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            t@yahoogroups. <mailto:t%40yahoogroups.com> com
                                            Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2007 1:01:18 PM
                                            Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                                            Yes. I'm not sure of the intended tone--but, seriously--my "wayward"
                                            younger 16-year-old little brother was very much brought "back to the
                                            fold" by such informalities. It has its place.
                                            --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, Brian Fink <brfinkster@ ...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            > What about "Ruba dub dub, thanks for the grub"?
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message ----
                                            > From: Anastasia Theodoridis anastasiatheo01@ ...
                                            > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                            > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 4:11:01 PM
                                            > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Two Questions
                                            >
                                            > We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy
                                            servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the
                                            "Amen," we usually pray some extemporaneous things, always including,
                                            "Thank You for Your love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings
                                            of that day. "Thank you for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.
                                            >
                                            > Anastasia
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Anastasia Theodoridis
                                            Hi, Dave,, Brian wasn t poking fun at God, either, but at us, the Orthodox. He doesn t feel that free and familiar with God. BTW, he s a seminarian at Holy
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Nov 11, 2007
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                                              Hi, Dave,,

                                              Brian wasn't poking fun at God, either, but at us, the Orthodox. He doesn't feel that free and familiar with God. BTW, he's a seminarian at Holy Cross in Brookline. Well, his studies there have been interrupted by family matters, so he's not DOING seminary at the moment, but as he certainly intends to continue, I suppose we could still call him a seminarian.

                                              I also look forward to your notes. It must be so weird to be an Orthodox among those Lutherans!

                                              Seven children! You are amazing.

                                              love,
                                              Anastasia
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: Northland Words
                                              To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:54 PM
                                              Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions


                                              Hello Anastasia-

                                              Thanks for the note and the concern. I wasn't worried, but concurring.
                                              Freedom and familiarity with Him, while insolent, is perhaps no more
                                              insolent than all our other human attempts to honor Him, even when
                                              undertaken with what we feel as earnest solemnity. It is only by His Grace
                                              that He accepts our solemn prayers rather than laughing at them. (But I
                                              probably chose an unfortunate e-mail to chime in.)

                                              Thanks for all your posts-I read them eagerly.

                                              Daved

                                              _____

                                              From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                              [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                                              Theodoridis
                                              Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 7:47 AM
                                              To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                                              Dave, I've known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry
                                              about what he means.

                                              :-)

                                              Anastasia

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Brian Fink
                                              Dear Dave, I m serious about my faith and the Orthodox church. But we do have fun at times too. Read www.theoniondome.com sometime. Its not as good as it
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Nov 13, 2007
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                                                Dear Dave,

                                                I'm serious about my faith and the Orthodox church. But we do have fun at times too. Read www.theoniondome.com sometime. Its not as good as it used to be, but still pretty funny.

                                                Once, I was carrying the crucifix for the Great Procession. When I came in from the right deacons door, there was no room for me to stop and put the crucifix back in its holder. So I had to keep going to let everyone behind me by, carrying this 8 ft tall crucifix. The assistant ecclesiarch looked at me oddly and told me, "I know Jesus told us to pick up and carry our cross but you CAN put that one down back there." My spiritual father and quite a few members of the faculty at HCHC are quite humorous about theology. Maybe its just me, but the Greeks are FAR funnier than the Russians :-P

                                                One joke about the Orthodox seminaries is that at St. Tikhon's, you learn to swing a censer properly. At St. Vlad's, a seminarian learns the theology about swinging a censor. At Holy Cross, we learn how to raise money through a Greek festival and get the best deal on a censor.

                                                Overall things are going well. I'm working two part time jobs and on Mondays and Tuesdays, I'm up from 6am to 1am which makes for a LONG day. I'm hoping that the first part-time job, manageing a help desk for a 4 person network management company will go full-time and I acan quit the 4-midnight job. I miss classes dearly. I've been counting down the months until I go back to school, 2 down and 10 to go.

                                                Brian


                                                ----- Original Message ----
                                                From: Anastasia Theodoridis <anastasiatheo01@...>
                                                To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 1:25:54 AM
                                                Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                                                Hi, Dave,,

                                                Brian wasn't poking fun at God, either, but at us, the Orthodox. He doesn't feel that free and familiar with God. BTW, he's a seminarian at Holy Cross in Brookline. Well, his studies there have been interrupted by family matters, so he's not DOING seminary at the moment, but as he certainly intends to continue, I suppose we could still call him a seminarian.

                                                I also look forward to your notes. It must be so weird to be an Orthodox among those Lutherans!

                                                Seven children! You are amazing.

                                                love,
                                                Anastasia
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: Northland Words
                                                To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                                Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:54 PM
                                                Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Two Questions

                                                Hello Anastasia-

                                                Thanks for the note and the concern. I wasn't worried, but concurring.
                                                Freedom and familiarity with Him, while insolent, is perhaps no more
                                                insolent than all our other human attempts to honor Him, even when
                                                undertaken with what we feel as earnest solemnity. It is only by His Grace
                                                that He accepts our solemn prayers rather than laughing at them. (But I
                                                probably chose an unfortunate e-mail to chime in.)

                                                Thanks for all your posts-I read them eagerly.

                                                Daved

                                                _____

                                                From: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                                [mailto:LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                                                Theodoridis
                                                Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 7:47 AM
                                                To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                                Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Two Questions

                                                Dave, I've known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry
                                                about what he means.

                                                :-)

                                                Anastasia

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • James
                                                Dear Brian, My friend Antone Meyer is currently a student there. He had intended to start when you did, but ended up needing to delay a year. Perhaps you
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Nov 13, 2007
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                                                  Dear Brian,

                                                  My friend Antone Meyer is currently a student there. He had intended
                                                  to start when you did, but ended up needing to delay a year. Perhaps
                                                  you will graduate in the same class. Antone is one of four persons
                                                  from my parish that graduated from Evangel University. Antone even
                                                  lived on the same exact hall of the same dorm I did, only a few years
                                                  later.

                                                  May the joy of the Lord be your strength!

                                                  James in Des Moines

                                                  --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Brian Fink
                                                  <brfinkster@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Dear Dave,
                                                  >
                                                  > I'm serious about my faith and the Orthodox church. But we do have
                                                  fun at times too. Read www.theoniondome.com sometime. Its not as
                                                  good as it used to be, but still pretty funny.
                                                  >
                                                  > Once, I was carrying the crucifix for the Great Procession. When I
                                                  came in from the right deacons door, there was no room for me to stop
                                                  and put the crucifix back in its holder. So I had to keep going to
                                                  let everyone behind me by, carrying this 8 ft tall crucifix. The
                                                  assistant ecclesiarch looked at me oddly and told me, "I know Jesus
                                                  told us to pick up and carry our cross but you CAN put that one down
                                                  back there." My spiritual father and quite a few members of the
                                                  faculty at HCHC are quite humorous about theology. Maybe its just
                                                  me, but the Greeks are FAR funnier than the Russians :-P
                                                  >
                                                  > One joke about the Orthodox seminaries is that at St. Tikhon's, you
                                                  learn to swing a censer properly. At St. Vlad's, a seminarian learns
                                                  the theology about swinging a censor. At Holy Cross, we learn how to
                                                  raise money through a Greek festival and get the best deal on a
                                                  censor.
                                                  >
                                                  > Overall things are going well. I'm working two part time jobs and
                                                  on Mondays and Tuesdays, I'm up from 6am to 1am which makes for a
                                                  LONG day. I'm hoping that the first part-time job, manageing a help
                                                  desk for a 4 person network management company will go full-time and
                                                  I acan quit the 4-midnight job. I miss classes dearly. I've been
                                                  counting down the months until I go back to school, 2 down and 10 to
                                                  go.
                                                  >
                                                  > Brian
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                • Northland Words
                                                  Hi Brian- The psychology of humor is pretty revealing about human motivation and intention-about our fears and weaknesses. I ve never seen it discussed, much,
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Nov 14, 2007
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Hi Brian-

                                                    The psychology of humor is pretty revealing about human motivation and
                                                    intention-about our fears and weaknesses. I've never seen it discussed,
                                                    much, in theological terms, however. It would be, I think, a rich mine. We
                                                    are often amused by the attempts of children to be earnest and solemn. But
                                                    in one sense, we are all little children. The link you sent, theoniondome,
                                                    seems to concur: "God laughs at the foolishness of men (Psalm 2:4); I think
                                                    it is healthy for us to laugh at ourselves."



                                                    In another sense, of course, we are His Bride or we are a royal priesthood
                                                    or co-heirs with Christ. And to the extent that those bolder metaphors
                                                    apply, laughing at our foibles or treating Him with jocular familiarity may
                                                    be less appropriate. The awareness of our own weakness, however, can hardly
                                                    be emphasized too strongly.



                                                    The job world does sound tough. Ten months to go? I hope you can hang on.



                                                    Daved





                                                    _____

                                                    From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                                    [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Fink
                                                    Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:26 AM
                                                    To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions



                                                    Dear Dave,

                                                    I'm serious about my faith and the Orthodox church. But we do have fun at
                                                    times too. Read www.theoniondome.com sometime. Its not as good as it used to
                                                    be, but still pretty funny.

                                                    Once, I was carrying the crucifix for the Great Procession. When I came in
                                                    from the right deacons door, there was no room for me to stop and put the
                                                    crucifix back in its holder. So I had to keep going to let everyone behind
                                                    me by, carrying this 8 ft tall crucifix. The assistant ecclesiarch looked at
                                                    me oddly and told me, "I know Jesus told us to pick up and carry our cross
                                                    but you CAN put that one down back there." My spiritual father and quite a
                                                    few members of the faculty at HCHC are quite humorous about theology. Maybe
                                                    its just me, but the Greeks are FAR funnier than the Russians :-P

                                                    One joke about the Orthodox seminaries is that at St. Tikhon's, you learn to
                                                    swing a censer properly. At St. Vlad's, a seminarian learns the theology
                                                    about swinging a censor. At Holy Cross, we learn how to raise money through
                                                    a Greek festival and get the best deal on a censor.

                                                    Overall things are going well. I'm working two part time jobs and on Mondays
                                                    and Tuesdays, I'm up from 6am to 1am which makes for a LONG day. I'm hoping
                                                    that the first part-time job, manageing a help desk for a 4 person network
                                                    management company will go full-time and I acan quit the 4-midnight job. I
                                                    miss classes dearly. I've been counting down the months until I go back to
                                                    school, 2 down and 10 to go.

                                                    Brian

                                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                                    From: Anastasia Theodoridis <anastasiatheo01@
                                                    <mailto:anastasiatheo01%40verizon.net> verizon.net>
                                                    To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    t@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 1:25:54 AM
                                                    Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                                                    Hi, Dave,,

                                                    Brian wasn't poking fun at God, either, but at us, the Orthodox. He doesn't
                                                    feel that free and familiar with God. BTW, he's a seminarian at Holy Cross
                                                    in Brookline. Well, his studies there have been interrupted by family
                                                    matters, so he's not DOING seminary at the moment, but as he certainly
                                                    intends to continue, I suppose we could still call him a seminarian.

                                                    I also look forward to your notes. It must be so weird to be an Orthodox
                                                    among those Lutherans!

                                                    Seven children! You are amazing.

                                                    love,
                                                    Anastasia
                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: Northland Words
                                                    To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                                    Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:54 PM
                                                    Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Two Questions

                                                    Hello Anastasia-

                                                    Thanks for the note and the concern. I wasn't worried, but concurring.
                                                    Freedom and familiarity with Him, while insolent, is perhaps no more
                                                    insolent than all our other human attempts to honor Him, even when
                                                    undertaken with what we feel as earnest solemnity. It is only by His Grace
                                                    that He accepts our solemn prayers rather than laughing at them. (But I
                                                    probably chose an unfortunate e-mail to chime in.)

                                                    Thanks for all your posts-I read them eagerly.

                                                    Daved

                                                    _____

                                                    From: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                                    [mailto:LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                                                    Theodoridis
                                                    Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 7:47 AM
                                                    To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                                    Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Two Questions

                                                    Dave, I've known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry
                                                    about what he means.

                                                    :-)

                                                    Anastasia

                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • tharman32
                                                    I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer some insight on. Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans after the
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , May 11, 2008
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer some
                                                      insight on.

                                                      Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans after
                                                      the Fall? When I read the saints I see they are well aware of thier
                                                      sinfulness and their need for God's grace, but are we "that bad"?
                                                      (Sorry to phrase it in such a trivial manner, but I can't find the
                                                      right words...)

                                                      Also does the Orthodox church believe in the "angry God" theory? (ie
                                                      the "sinners in the hands of an angry God theology"). From my limited
                                                      knowledge I beleive the answer is a loud no. But I am not sure.

                                                      Thank you for any insight or recommended readings you suggest!
                                                      Todd
                                                    • Fr John Fenton
                                                      Hi Todd, Christ ist auferstanden! (for the German speaking) You asked two straight-forward questions, so permit me to give straight-forward answers. 1. The
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , May 12, 2008
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Hi Todd,

                                                        Christ ist auferstanden! (for the German speaking)

                                                        You asked two straight-forward questions, so permit me to give straight-forward answers.

                                                        1. The doctrine of the "total depravity of man" is a distinctly Calvinist or Arminian (NOT Armenian) teaching, which is often ascribed or held by Lutherans and is understandably but incorrectly ascribed to St Augustine, is roundly rejected by the Orthodox Church. Among other things, it is built upon the notions of original guilt which is also rejected by the Church.

                                                        2. While the Scriptures speak of God's anger, the "angry God theory" is rejected by the Church. Among other things, it suggests a dual personality in God and ascribes to Him a sinful human characteristic.

                                                        Certainly, the answers to these questions are more much nuanced and therefore will most likely raise other questions. For reading, let me suggest "The Orthodox Way" by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware and "Byzantine Theology" by Fr John Meyendorff.




                                                        Fr John W Fenton, Priest
                                                        Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
                                                        A Western Rite Parish in the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America

                                                        frfenton@...
                                                        www.holyincarnation.org






                                                        ----- Original Message ----
                                                        From: tharman32 <tharman32@...>
                                                        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 4:34:56 PM
                                                        Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Two Questions

                                                        I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer some
                                                        insight on.

                                                        Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans after
                                                        the Fall? When I read the saints I see they are well aware of thier
                                                        sinfulness and their need for God's grace, but are we "that bad"?
                                                        (Sorry to phrase it in such a trivial manner, but I can't find the
                                                        right words...)

                                                        Also does the Orthodox church believe in the "angry God" theory? (ie
                                                        the "sinners in the hands of an angry God theology"). From my limited
                                                        knowledge I beleive the answer is a loud no. But I am not sure.

                                                        Thank you for any insight or recommended readings you suggest!
                                                        Todd




                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      • BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
                                                        Todd, For me the Orthodox perspective is positive. It does not matter how badly a human person is damaged by error / sin, as the person remains at core God s
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , May 12, 2008
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          Todd,

                                                          For me the Orthodox perspective is positive.

                                                          It does not matter how badly a human person is damaged by error / sin,
                                                          as the person remains at core God's good creation and is therefore
                                                          capable of restoration.

                                                          Any other view leads to hatred towards God.

                                                          God is angry with sin but loves the sinner.
                                                          In Jesus Christ love overcomes anger.
                                                          We live in this new contract / testamentum with God.

                                                          Peter




                                                          tharman32 <tharman32@...> wrote:
                                                          I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer some
                                                          insight on.

                                                          Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans after
                                                          the Fall? When I read the saints I see they are well aware of thier
                                                          sinfulness and their need for God's grace, but are we "that bad"?
                                                          (Sorry to phrase it in such a trivial manner, but I can't find the
                                                          right words...)

                                                          Also does the Orthodox church believe in the "angry God" theory? (ie
                                                          the "sinners in the hands of an angry God theology"). From my limited
                                                          knowledge I beleive the answer is a loud no. But I am not sure.

                                                          Thank you for any insight or recommended readings you suggest!
                                                          Todd






                                                          ---------------------------------
                                                          Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

                                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        • Dave @¿@¬
                                                          Howdy Todd! Er ist wahrhaftig auferstanden! The total depravity of man would seem to contradict the Orthodox concepts of sin and theosis. How is man to become
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , May 19, 2008
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            Howdy Todd!

                                                            Er ist wahrhaftig auferstanden!

                                                            The total depravity of man would seem to contradict
                                                            the Orthodox concepts of sin and theosis.

                                                            How is man to "become a god" (lower case "g") unless
                                                            there is still some element within man that would allow
                                                            God to work this change within him?

                                                            Dave


                                                            --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Fr John Fenton
                                                            <frfenton@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > Hi Todd,
                                                            >
                                                            > Christ ist auferstanden! (for the German speaking)
                                                            >
                                                            > You asked two straight-forward questions, so permit me to give
                                                            straight-forward answers.
                                                            >
                                                            > 1. The doctrine of the "total depravity of man" is a distinctly
                                                            Calvinist or Arminian (NOT Armenian) teaching, which is often
                                                            ascribed or held by Lutherans and is understandably but incorrectly
                                                            ascribed to St Augustine, is roundly rejected by the Orthodox
                                                            Church. Among other things, it is built upon the notions of original
                                                            guilt which is also rejected by the Church.
                                                            >
                                                            > 2. While the Scriptures speak of God's anger, the "angry God
                                                            theory" is rejected by the Church. Among other things, it suggests a
                                                            dual personality in God and ascribes to Him a sinful human
                                                            characteristic.
                                                            >
                                                            > Certainly, the answers to these questions are more much nuanced
                                                            and therefore will most likely raise other questions. For reading,
                                                            let me suggest "The Orthodox Way" by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
                                                            and "Byzantine Theology" by Fr John Meyendorff.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Fr John W Fenton, Priest
                                                            > Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
                                                            > A Western Rite Parish in the Antiochian Orthodox Christian
                                                            Archdiocese of North America
                                                            >
                                                            > frfenton@...
                                                            > www.holyincarnation.org
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > ----- Original Message ----
                                                            > From: tharman32 <tharman32@...>
                                                            > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                                            > Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 4:34:56 PM
                                                            > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Two Questions
                                                            >
                                                            > I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer
                                                            some
                                                            > insight on.
                                                            >
                                                            > Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans
                                                            after
                                                            > the Fall? When I read the saints I see they are well aware of
                                                            thier
                                                            > sinfulness and their need for God's grace, but are we "that bad"?
                                                            > (Sorry to phrase it in such a trivial manner, but I can't find the
                                                            > right words...)
                                                            >
                                                            > Also does the Orthodox church believe in the "angry God" theory?
                                                            (ie
                                                            > the "sinners in the hands of an angry God theology"). From my
                                                            limited
                                                            > knowledge I beleive the answer is a loud no. But I am not sure.
                                                            >
                                                            > Thank you for any insight or recommended readings you suggest!
                                                            > Todd
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                            >
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