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  • phos_hilarion@hotmail.com
    First, a friend asked me why the Orthodox are not as fond of statues (3d) as they are of other two dimensional art. I had found an answer online somewhere but
    Message 1 of 29 , Nov 6, 2007
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      First, a friend asked me why the Orthodox are not as fond of statues (3d) as they are of other two dimensional art. I had found an answer online somewhere but since lost the link. Maybe you have some resources or explanations that would help?

      Second, I have been wondering what prayers Orthodox say at mealtime. I don't imagine they pray the ol' "Come Lord Jesus". I am not asking for the theoretical side (we could pray any one of these number of prayers - althought that would also be appreciated), but for a practical side (what do *you* pray?).

      Yours in Christ
      _________________________________________________________________
      Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!
      http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Christopher Orr
      I usually make the sign of the cross over the food and say, Lord Jesus Christ, bless the food and drink of Thy servant, now and ever and unto the ages and
      Message 2 of 29 , Nov 6, 2007
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        I usually make the sign of the cross over the food and say, "Lord Jesus
        Christ, bless the food and drink of Thy servant, now and ever and unto the
        ages and ages. Amen."

        Of course, I am bad at praying before meals, generally, so this is a little
        haphazard on my part.

        The standard Prayer Book prayer I usually hear used is:

        We thank Thee, O Christ our God, that Thou hast satisfied us with Thy
        earthly gifts; deprive us not of Thy heavenly kingdom, but as Thou earnest
        among Thy disciples, O Saviour, and gavest them peace, come to us and save
        us.

        There is not a hard a fast rule, though, I also hear people praying the
        Lord's Prayer, "O Heavenly King..." or "It is truly meet..."

        The Greek priest in my PA church advises the kids to simply "put on their
        cross" (make the sign of the cross) before meals.

        Christopher



        On 11/6/07, phos_hilarion@... <phos_hilarion@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > First, a friend asked me why the Orthodox are not as fond of statues (3d)
        > as they are of other two dimensional art. I had found an answer online
        > somewhere but since lost the link. Maybe you have some resources or
        > explanations that would help?
        >
        > Second, I have been wondering what prayers Orthodox say at mealtime. I
        > don't imagine they pray the ol' "Come Lord Jesus". I am not asking for the
        > theoretical side (we could pray any one of these number of prayers -
        > althought that would also be appreciated), but for a practical side (what do
        > *you* pray?).
        >
        > Yours in Christ
        > __________________________________________________________
        > Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!
        > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us<http://www.reallivemoms.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us>
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Rosemarie Lieffring
        phos, Here are a couple of sentences I grabbed from a wiki article on icons about the Orthodox and statues: In the Eastern Orthodox tradition, only flat images
        Message 3 of 29 , Nov 6, 2007
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          phos,

          Here are a couple of sentences I grabbed from a wiki article on icons about
          the Orthodox and statues:

          In the Eastern Orthodox tradition, only flat images or bas relief images are
          used. The Greeks <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks>, having a long, pagan
          tradition of statuary, found the sensual quality of three dimensional
          representations did more to glorify the human aspect of the flesh rather
          than the divine nature of the spirit and so prohibitions were created
          against statuary. The Romans <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire>, on
          the other hand, did not adopt these prohibitions and so we still have
          statuary among the Roman
          Catholics<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church>to this
          day. Because the Greeks rejected statuary, the Byzantine style of
          iconography was developed in which figures were stylized in a manner that
          emphasized their holiness rather than their humanity. Symbolism allowed the
          icon to present highly complex material in a very simple way, making it
          possible to educate even the illiterate in theology.

          I hope someone here can develop this a little more for you. It is truly a
          shame that someone who's spiritual father is actually an iconographer can't
          step up to the plate and do more for you on this subject. Someday I'll have
          to learn to express better what I have been taught!

          Our home suffers from church divorce, my husband is Lutheran and I am a
          convert to Orthodoxy, so when it comes to mealtime prayers, my Lutheran
          husband does some extemporaneous prayer. Sometimes, when there are other
          Lutherans around, he does "Come Lord Jesus." When I am by myself or with my
          Orthodox friends we pray "Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Lord have
          mercy. O Lord, bless the food and drink of these thy servants..." (as does
          Christopher)

          Our bishop however prays something very similar to the Roman Catholic prayer
          we used to pray...."Bless us O Lord and these thy gifts..." but I don't know
          his exact wording. It isn't 100% the same...actually it might be closer to
          Luther's prayer before meals.

          When our family gets together for Christmas we pray "Bless us O Lord" for my
          brother's family, "Come Lord Jesus" for my family and last year we added "O
          Lord bless" for me! But before that my brother adds in his own
          extemporaneous prayers. It's a regular smorgasbord of prayer! :)

          On 11/6/07, phos_hilarion@... <phos_hilarion@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > First, a friend asked me why the Orthodox are not as fond of statues (3d)
          > as they are of other two dimensional art. I had found an answer online
          > somewhere but since lost the link. Maybe you have some resources or
          > explanations that would help?
          >
          > Second, I have been wondering what prayers Orthodox say at mealtime. I
          > don't imagine they pray the ol' "Come Lord Jesus". I am not asking for the
          > theoretical side (we could pray any one of these number of prayers -
          > althought that would also be appreciated), but for a practical side (what do
          > *you* pray?).
          >
          > Yours in Christ
          > __________________________________________________________
          > Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!
          > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us<http://www.reallivemoms.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us>
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Anastasia Theodoridis
          We pray, Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages. Then, before the Amen, we usually pray
          Message 4 of 29 , Nov 6, 2007
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            We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the "Amen," we usually pray some extemporaneous things, always including, "Thank You for Your love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings of that day. "Thank you for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.

            Anastasia




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Christopher Orr
            There are no canons against the use of statuary, and there are isolated examples here and there of their use in Orthodox history. The 2-D form just seemed to
            Message 5 of 29 , Nov 6, 2007
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              There are no canons against the use of statuary, and there are isolated
              examples here and there of their use in Orthodox history. The 2-D form just
              seemed to avail itself better to the 'depths' of Christian theology. The
              arguments back and forth during the Iconoclast Controversy often touched on
              whether the divine and human natures could be expressed in art, and then
              what that meant for religious art. A 2-D form and realistic portature
              styles tend to overemphasize the lesser of the 2 natures in Christ: the
              human nature. Byzantine iconography attempts to show us what is really
              going on behind 'just' the outward, physical forms of Christ and the saints,
              and the events in their lives. this is why perspective is reversed and why
              a stylized form was adopted - sculpture just seems to 'realistic' and
              naturalistic, though it would be interesting to see what would have happened
              had Rodin and modern sculpture been an available tool for religious artists
              to the mainstream of Christian art in the first millenium (which was
              centered in the centers of civilization in the eastern Roman Empire, not in
              the city of Rome and the hinterlands of the Western Empire). It should
              always be remembered that naturalistic portraiture was a skill that the
              ancients had mastered, e.g., the Egyptian funeral portraits, even the Christ
              Pantocrator on Sinai. A more 'primitive' style was purposefully adopted
              because it better matched the theology underlying sacred art and its
              veneration.

              Just like most early icons (except for those in places such as Sinai, e.g.
              the famous Christ Pantocrator in encaustic at St. Catherine's), any statues
              were likely destroyed during the iconoclast controversy - especially since a
              statue is harder to move and hide than a painted board.

              Christopher


              On 11/6/07, Rosemarie Lieffring <rose.lieffring@...> wrote:
              >
              > phos,
              >
              > Here are a couple of sentences I grabbed from a wiki article on icons
              > about
              > the Orthodox and statues:
              >
              > In the Eastern Orthodox tradition, only flat images or bas relief images
              > are
              > used. The Greeks < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks>, having a long,
              > pagan
              > tradition of statuary, found the sensual quality of three dimensional
              > representations did more to glorify the human aspect of the flesh rather
              > than the divine nature of the spirit and so prohibitions were created
              > against statuary. The Romans < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire>,
              > on
              > the other hand, did not adopt these prohibitions and so we still have
              > statuary among the Roman
              > Catholics< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church>to this
              > day. Because the Greeks rejected statuary, the Byzantine style of
              > iconography was developed in which figures were stylized in a manner that
              > emphasized their holiness rather than their humanity. Symbolism allowed
              > the
              > icon to present highly complex material in a very simple way, making it
              > possible to educate even the illiterate in theology.
              >
              > I hope someone here can develop this a little more for you. It is truly a
              > shame that someone who's spiritual father is actually an iconographer
              > can't
              > step up to the plate and do more for you on this subject. Someday I'll
              > have
              > to learn to express better what I have been taught!
              >
              > Our home suffers from church divorce, my husband is Lutheran and I am a
              > convert to Orthodoxy, so when it comes to mealtime prayers, my Lutheran
              > husband does some extemporaneous prayer. Sometimes, when there are other
              > Lutherans around, he does "Come Lord Jesus." When I am by myself or with
              > my
              > Orthodox friends we pray "Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Lord have
              > mercy. O Lord, bless the food and drink of these thy servants..." (as does
              > Christopher)
              >
              > Our bishop however prays something very similar to the Roman Catholic
              > prayer
              > we used to pray...."Bless us O Lord and these thy gifts..." but I don't
              > know
              > his exact wording. It isn't 100% the same...actually it might be closer to
              > Luther's prayer before meals.
              >
              > When our family gets together for Christmas we pray "Bless us O Lord" for
              > my
              > brother's family, "Come Lord Jesus" for my family and last year we added
              > "O
              > Lord bless" for me! But before that my brother adds in his own
              > extemporaneous prayers. It's a regular smorgasbord of prayer! :)
              >
              > On 11/6/07, phos_hilarion@... <phos_hilarion%40hotmail.com> <
              > phos_hilarion@... <phos_hilarion%40hotmail.com>> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > First, a friend asked me why the Orthodox are not as fond of statues
              > (3d)
              > > as they are of other two dimensional art. I had found an answer online
              > > somewhere but since lost the link. Maybe you have some resources or
              > > explanations that would help?
              > >
              > > Second, I have been wondering what prayers Orthodox say at mealtime. I
              > > don't imagine they pray the ol' "Come Lord Jesus". I am not asking for
              > the
              > > theoretical side (we could pray any one of these number of prayers -
              > > althought that would also be appreciated), but for a practical side
              > (what do
              > > *you* pray?).
              > >
              > > Yours in Christ
              > > __________________________________________________________
              > > Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!
              > > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
              > <http://www.reallivemoms.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us><
              > http://www.reallivemoms.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us>
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • sr72000
              I would agree with these explanations of Orthodox use of statuary...and I would point out that crucifixes are not at all uncommon in Orthodox use, which are a
              Message 6 of 29 , Nov 6, 2007
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                I would agree with these explanations of Orthodox use of
                statuary...and I would point out that crucifixes are not at all
                uncommon in Orthodox use, which are a type of statuary.

                One explanation for the preference for icons I heard a while back was
                that they are generally more able than statuary to convey the reality
                that we can't see visibly: the kingdom of heaven. Background colors
                are called to be "heavenly;" rooms are turned inside-out, to portray
                our participation in what is depicted; light radiates FROM Christ and
                the saints, as He shines within them, rather than upon them from outside.

                Randy



                --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Orr"
                <xcjorr@...> wrote:
                >
                > There are no canons against the use of statuary, and there are isolated
                > examples here and there of their use in Orthodox history. The 2-D
                form just
                > seemed to avail itself better to the 'depths' of Christian theology.
                The
                > arguments back and forth during the Iconoclast Controversy often
                touched on
                > whether the divine and human natures could be expressed in art, and then
                > what that meant for religious art. A 2-D form and realistic portature
                > styles tend to overemphasize the lesser of the 2 natures in Christ: the
                > human nature. Byzantine iconography attempts to show us what is really
                > going on behind 'just' the outward, physical forms of Christ and the
                saints,
                > and the events in their lives. this is why perspective is reversed
                and why
                > a stylized form was adopted - sculpture just seems to 'realistic' and
                > naturalistic, though it would be interesting to see what would have
                happened
                > had Rodin and modern sculpture been an available tool for religious
                artists
                > to the mainstream of Christian art in the first millenium (which was
                > centered in the centers of civilization in the eastern Roman Empire,
                not in
                > the city of Rome and the hinterlands of the Western Empire). It should
                > always be remembered that naturalistic portraiture was a skill that the
                > ancients had mastered, e.g., the Egyptian funeral portraits, even
                the Christ
                > Pantocrator on Sinai. A more 'primitive' style was purposefully adopted
                > because it better matched the theology underlying sacred art and its
                > veneration.
                >
                > Just like most early icons (except for those in places such as
                Sinai, e.g.
                > the famous Christ Pantocrator in encaustic at St. Catherine's), any
                statues
                > were likely destroyed during the iconoclast controversy - especially
                since a
                > statue is harder to move and hide than a painted board.
                >
                > Christopher
                >
                >
                > On 11/6/07, Rosemarie Lieffring <rose.lieffring@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > phos,
                > >
                > > Here are a couple of sentences I grabbed from a wiki article on icons
                > > about
                > > the Orthodox and statues:
                > >
                > > In the Eastern Orthodox tradition, only flat images or bas relief
                images
                > > are
                > > used. The Greeks < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks>, having a
                long,
                > > pagan
                > > tradition of statuary, found the sensual quality of three dimensional
                > > representations did more to glorify the human aspect of the flesh
                rather
                > > than the divine nature of the spirit and so prohibitions were created
                > > against statuary. The Romans <
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire>,
                > > on
                > > the other hand, did not adopt these prohibitions and so we still have
                > > statuary among the Roman
                > > Catholics< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church>to this
                > > day. Because the Greeks rejected statuary, the Byzantine style of
                > > iconography was developed in which figures were stylized in a
                manner that
                > > emphasized their holiness rather than their humanity. Symbolism
                allowed
                > > the
                > > icon to present highly complex material in a very simple way,
                making it
                > > possible to educate even the illiterate in theology.
                > >
                > > I hope someone here can develop this a little more for you. It is
                truly a
                > > shame that someone who's spiritual father is actually an iconographer
                > > can't
                > > step up to the plate and do more for you on this subject. Someday I'll
                > > have
                > > to learn to express better what I have been taught!
                > >
                > > Our home suffers from church divorce, my husband is Lutheran and I
                am a
                > > convert to Orthodoxy, so when it comes to mealtime prayers, my
                Lutheran
                > > husband does some extemporaneous prayer. Sometimes, when there are
                other
                > > Lutherans around, he does "Come Lord Jesus." When I am by myself
                or with
                > > my
                > > Orthodox friends we pray "Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Lord have
                > > mercy. O Lord, bless the food and drink of these thy servants..."
                (as does
                > > Christopher)
                > >
                > > Our bishop however prays something very similar to the Roman Catholic
                > > prayer
                > > we used to pray...."Bless us O Lord and these thy gifts..." but I
                don't
                > > know
                > > his exact wording. It isn't 100% the same...actually it might be
                closer to
                > > Luther's prayer before meals.
                > >
                > > When our family gets together for Christmas we pray "Bless us O
                Lord" for
                > > my
                > > brother's family, "Come Lord Jesus" for my family and last year we
                added
                > > "O
                > > Lord bless" for me! But before that my brother adds in his own
                > > extemporaneous prayers. It's a regular smorgasbord of prayer! :)
                > >
                > > On 11/6/07, phos_hilarion@... <phos_hilarion%40hotmail.com> <
                > > phos_hilarion@... <phos_hilarion%40hotmail.com>> wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > First, a friend asked me why the Orthodox are not as fond of statues
                > > (3d)
                > > > as they are of other two dimensional art. I had found an answer
                online
                > > > somewhere but since lost the link. Maybe you have some resources or
                > > > explanations that would help?
                > > >
                > > > Second, I have been wondering what prayers Orthodox say at
                mealtime. I
                > > > don't imagine they pray the ol' "Come Lord Jesus". I am not
                asking for
                > > the
                > > > theoretical side (we could pray any one of these number of prayers -
                > > > althought that would also be appreciated), but for a practical side
                > > (what do
                > > > *you* pray?).
                > > >
                > > > Yours in Christ
                > > > __________________________________________________________
                > > > Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!
                > > > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
                > > <http://www.reallivemoms.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us><
                > > http://www.reallivemoms.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us>
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Christopher Orr
                One thing to note is that there are no shadows in icons and the sky is gold - the Kingdom. Christopher ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                Message 7 of 29 , Nov 7, 2007
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                  One thing to note is that there are no shadows in icons and the sky is gold
                  - the Kingdom.

                  Christopher


                  On 11/6/07, sr72000 <stortford@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I would agree with these explanations of Orthodox use of
                  > statuary...and I would point out that crucifixes are not at all
                  > uncommon in Orthodox use, which are a type of statuary.
                  >
                  > One explanation for the preference for icons I heard a while back was
                  > that they are generally more able than statuary to convey the reality
                  > that we can't see visibly: the kingdom of heaven. Background colors
                  > are called to be "heavenly;" rooms are turned inside-out, to portray
                  > our participation in what is depicted; light radiates FROM Christ and
                  > the saints, as He shines within them, rather than upon them from outside.
                  >
                  > Randy
                  >
                  > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > "Christopher Orr"
                  > <xcjorr@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > There are no canons against the use of statuary, and there are isolated
                  > > examples here and there of their use in Orthodox history. The 2-D
                  > form just
                  > > seemed to avail itself better to the 'depths' of Christian theology.
                  > The
                  > > arguments back and forth during the Iconoclast Controversy often
                  > touched on
                  > > whether the divine and human natures could be expressed in art, and then
                  > > what that meant for religious art. A 2-D form and realistic portature
                  > > styles tend to overemphasize the lesser of the 2 natures in Christ: the
                  > > human nature. Byzantine iconography attempts to show us what is really
                  > > going on behind 'just' the outward, physical forms of Christ and the
                  > saints,
                  > > and the events in their lives. this is why perspective is reversed
                  > and why
                  > > a stylized form was adopted - sculpture just seems to 'realistic' and
                  > > naturalistic, though it would be interesting to see what would have
                  > happened
                  > > had Rodin and modern sculpture been an available tool for religious
                  > artists
                  > > to the mainstream of Christian art in the first millenium (which was
                  > > centered in the centers of civilization in the eastern Roman Empire,
                  > not in
                  > > the city of Rome and the hinterlands of the Western Empire). It should
                  > > always be remembered that naturalistic portraiture was a skill that the
                  > > ancients had mastered, e.g., the Egyptian funeral portraits, even
                  > the Christ
                  > > Pantocrator on Sinai. A more 'primitive' style was purposefully adopted
                  > > because it better matched the theology underlying sacred art and its
                  > > veneration.
                  > >
                  > > Just like most early icons (except for those in places such as
                  > Sinai, e.g.
                  > > the famous Christ Pantocrator in encaustic at St. Catherine's), any
                  > statues
                  > > were likely destroyed during the iconoclast controversy - especially
                  > since a
                  > > statue is harder to move and hide than a painted board.
                  > >
                  > > Christopher
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > On 11/6/07, Rosemarie Lieffring <rose.lieffring@...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > phos,
                  > > >
                  > > > Here are a couple of sentences I grabbed from a wiki article on icons
                  > > > about
                  > > > the Orthodox and statues:
                  > > >
                  > > > In the Eastern Orthodox tradition, only flat images or bas relief
                  > images
                  > > > are
                  > > > used. The Greeks < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks>, having a
                  > long,
                  > > > pagan
                  > > > tradition of statuary, found the sensual quality of three dimensional
                  > > > representations did more to glorify the human aspect of the flesh
                  > rather
                  > > > than the divine nature of the spirit and so prohibitions were created
                  > > > against statuary. The Romans <
                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire>,
                  > > > on
                  > > > the other hand, did not adopt these prohibitions and so we still have
                  > > > statuary among the Roman
                  > > > Catholics< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church>to this
                  > > > day. Because the Greeks rejected statuary, the Byzantine style of
                  > > > iconography was developed in which figures were stylized in a
                  > manner that
                  > > > emphasized their holiness rather than their humanity. Symbolism
                  > allowed
                  > > > the
                  > > > icon to present highly complex material in a very simple way,
                  > making it
                  > > > possible to educate even the illiterate in theology.
                  > > >
                  > > > I hope someone here can develop this a little more for you. It is
                  > truly a
                  > > > shame that someone who's spiritual father is actually an iconographer
                  > > > can't
                  > > > step up to the plate and do more for you on this subject. Someday I'll
                  > > > have
                  > > > to learn to express better what I have been taught!
                  > > >
                  > > > Our home suffers from church divorce, my husband is Lutheran and I
                  > am a
                  > > > convert to Orthodoxy, so when it comes to mealtime prayers, my
                  > Lutheran
                  > > > husband does some extemporaneous prayer. Sometimes, when there are
                  > other
                  > > > Lutherans around, he does "Come Lord Jesus." When I am by myself
                  > or with
                  > > > my
                  > > > Orthodox friends we pray "Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Lord have
                  > > > mercy. O Lord, bless the food and drink of these thy servants..."
                  > (as does
                  > > > Christopher)
                  > > >
                  > > > Our bishop however prays something very similar to the Roman Catholic
                  > > > prayer
                  > > > we used to pray...."Bless us O Lord and these thy gifts..." but I
                  > don't
                  > > > know
                  > > > his exact wording. It isn't 100% the same...actually it might be
                  > closer to
                  > > > Luther's prayer before meals.
                  > > >
                  > > > When our family gets together for Christmas we pray "Bless us O
                  > Lord" for
                  > > > my
                  > > > brother's family, "Come Lord Jesus" for my family and last year we
                  > added
                  > > > "O
                  > > > Lord bless" for me! But before that my brother adds in his own
                  > > > extemporaneous prayers. It's a regular smorgasbord of prayer! :)
                  > > >
                  > > > On 11/6/07, phos_hilarion@... <phos_hilarion%40hotmail.com> <
                  > > > phos_hilarion@... <phos_hilarion%40hotmail.com>> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > First, a friend asked me why the Orthodox are not as fond of statues
                  > > > (3d)
                  > > > > as they are of other two dimensional art. I had found an answer
                  > online
                  > > > > somewhere but since lost the link. Maybe you have some resources or
                  > > > > explanations that would help?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Second, I have been wondering what prayers Orthodox say at
                  > mealtime. I
                  > > > > don't imagine they pray the ol' "Come Lord Jesus". I am not
                  > asking for
                  > > > the
                  > > > > theoretical side (we could pray any one of these number of prayers -
                  > > > > althought that would also be appreciated), but for a practical side
                  > > > (what do
                  > > > > *you* pray?).
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Yours in Christ
                  > > > > __________________________________________________________
                  > > > > Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!
                  > > > > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us<http://www.reallivemoms.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us>
                  > > > <http://www.reallivemoms.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us><
                  > > > http://www.reallivemoms.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us>
                  > > > >
                  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • krolechka
                  In our family, we usually do this: Our Father , Glory... and Lord, bless! with a sign of cross (onto ourselves and onto the food). ... (3d) as they are of
                  Message 8 of 29 , Nov 7, 2007
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                    In our family, we usually do this: "Our Father", "Glory..." and "Lord,
                    bless!" with a sign of cross (onto ourselves and onto the food).

                    --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, <phos_hilarion@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > First, a friend asked me why the Orthodox are not as fond of statues
                    (3d) as they are of other two dimensional art. I had found an answer
                    online somewhere but since lost the link. Maybe you have some
                    resources or explanations that would help?
                  • Brian Fink
                    What about Ruba dub dub, thanks for the grub ? ... From: Anastasia Theodoridis To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                    Message 9 of 29 , Nov 8, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      What about "Ruba dub dub, thanks for the grub"?



                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Anastasia Theodoridis <anastasiatheo01@...>
                      To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 4:11:01 PM
                      Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Two Questions

                      We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the "Amen," we usually pray some extemporaneous things, always including, "Thank You for Your love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings of that day. "Thank you for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.

                      Anastasia

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • daved.driscoll
                      Yes. I m not sure of the intended tone--but, seriously--my wayward younger 16-year-old little brother was very much brought back to the fold by such
                      Message 10 of 29 , Nov 8, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Yes. I'm not sure of the intended tone--but, seriously--my "wayward"
                        younger 16-year-old little brother was very much brought "back to the
                        fold" by such informalities. It has its place.
                        --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Brian Fink <brfinkster@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > What about "Ruba dub dub, thanks for the grub"?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message ----
                        > From: Anastasia Theodoridis anastasiatheo01@...
                        > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 4:11:01 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Two Questions
                        >
                        > We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy
                        servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the
                        "Amen," we usually pray some extemporaneous things, always including,
                        "Thank You for Your love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings
                        of that day. "Thank you for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.
                        >
                        > Anastasia
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • JWF
                        In the Western Rite, we commonly say this prayer before meals: Bless us, O Lord, and these thy gifts which we are about to receive from thy bounty, through
                        Message 11 of 29 , Nov 8, 2007
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                          In the Western Rite, we commonly say this prayer before meals:



                          Bless us, O Lord, and these thy gifts which we are about to receive from thy
                          bounty, through Christ our Lord.



                          Apparently Luther used some close variation of this in his Small Catechism.



                          There is also a longer set of prayers, which vary seasonally, from monastic
                          usage.





                          Fr John W Fenton

                          Priest, Holy Incarnation Antiochian Orthodox Christian Church

                          <mailto:frfenton@...> frfenton@...

                          http://HolyIncarnation.org <http://holyincarnation.org/>

                          <mailto:frfenton@...>

                          _____

                          From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                          Theodoridis
                          Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 4:11 PM
                          To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Two Questions



                          We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy servants, for
                          You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the "Amen," we usually
                          pray some extemporaneous things, always including, "Thank You for Your
                          love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings of that day. "Thank you
                          for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.

                          Anastasia

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • James
                          ... from thy ... I ve used this prayer for several years now, since I spotted it in the little red prayer book that the Antiochian Archdiocese puts out. It
                          Message 12 of 29 , Nov 8, 2007
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                            --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "JWF" <frfenton@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > In the Western Rite, we commonly say this prayer before meals:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Bless us, O Lord, and these thy gifts which we are about to receive
                            from thy
                            > bounty, through Christ our Lord.
                            >


                            I've used this prayer for several years now, since I spotted it in the
                            little red prayer book that the Antiochian Archdiocese puts out. It
                            was already familiar.

                            First I say the Lord's Prayer, crossing myself (unless the situation
                            seems that it would appear a spectacle or showy), and then "Bless us,
                            O Lord.." making the sign of the cross over the food.
                          • James
                            I was reminded in an offline note that I probably should not worry so much about what others think and go ahead and cross myself. It seems my Priest said
                            Message 13 of 29 , Nov 9, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I was reminded in an offline note that I probably should not worry
                              so much about what others think and go ahead and cross myself. It
                              seems my Priest said essentially the same thing in a sermon awhile
                              back. May the Lord strengthen my resolve and help me remember to do
                              this.

                              Yeah, I probably still have some of that old Lutheran "don't draw
                              attention to oneself" mentality going, huh?

                              James/JiMi

                              p.s. - Thanks to Peter for reminding me I'm not in Lake Woebegone


                              --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "James" <jimi@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "JWF" <frfenton@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > In the Western Rite, we commonly say this prayer before meals:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Bless us, O Lord, and these thy gifts which we are about to
                              receive
                              > from thy
                              > > bounty, through Christ our Lord.
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > I've used this prayer for several years now, since I spotted it in
                              the
                              > little red prayer book that the Antiochian Archdiocese puts out.
                              It
                              > was already familiar.
                              >
                              > First I say the Lord's Prayer, crossing myself (unless the
                              situation
                              > seems that it would appear a spectacle or showy), and then "Bless
                              us,
                              > O Lord.." making the sign of the cross over the food.
                              >
                            • Christopher Orr
                              I make the sign of the cross over my food because it is less conspicuous. I have also been struck by a comment made by the late Fr. John Krestiankin in the
                              Message 14 of 29 , Nov 9, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I make the sign of the cross over my food because it is less conspicuous.

                                I have also been struck by a comment made by the late Fr. John Krestiankin
                                in the book of his letters, "May God Give you Wisdom" (St Herman Press), to
                                believing spouses of unbelievers. He said, essentially, don't go on too far
                                ahead. The same can be true of unbelievers around us in everyday life - we
                                can't be see as such odd ducks that we are disregarded. The Letter to
                                Diognetus states clearly that we live as other men in various countries, but
                                are always citizens only of heaven. In the world, but not of the world. I
                                tend to prefer to be as 'normal' as the next guy insofar as I can remain an
                                Orthodox Christian, never hiding, but never affecting differences to make a
                                point. When St. Anthony the Great walked through Alexandria preaching
                                without words, he was simply himself, in his regular, poor clothes, walking;
                                he wasn't prostrating, and crossing, and raising his hands as an orans in
                                prayer, etc. He was simply a Christian, walking.

                                That being said, crossing oneself in prayer at any times should never be
                                dissuaded. I often do so walking down the hallway of my office, on the
                                street, etc., but as a means to bless myself with the cross and not to
                                testify to others - and many take such actions to be a conscious attempt to
                                make unbelievers uncomfortable or as a 'witness'.

                                Christopher


                                On 11/9/07, James <jimi@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I was reminded in an offline note that I probably should not worry
                                > so much about what others think and go ahead and cross myself. It
                                > seems my Priest said essentially the same thing in a sermon awhile
                                > back. May the Lord strengthen my resolve and help me remember to do
                                > this.
                                >
                                > Yeah, I probably still have some of that old Lutheran "don't draw
                                > attention to oneself" mentality going, huh?
                                >
                                > James/JiMi
                                >
                                > p.s. - Thanks to Peter for reminding me I'm not in Lake Woebegone
                                >
                                > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                > "James" <jimi@...>
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                > "JWF" <frfenton@>
                                > > wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > In the Western Rite, we commonly say this prayer before meals:
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Bless us, O Lord, and these thy gifts which we are about to
                                > receive
                                > > from thy
                                > > > bounty, through Christ our Lord.
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > I've used this prayer for several years now, since I spotted it in
                                > the
                                > > little red prayer book that the Antiochian Archdiocese puts out.
                                > It
                                > > was already familiar.
                                > >
                                > > First I say the Lord's Prayer, crossing myself (unless the
                                > situation
                                > > seems that it would appear a spectacle or showy), and then "Bless
                                > us,
                                > > O Lord.." making the sign of the cross over the food.
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • phos_hilarion@hotmail.com
                                Thank you, everyone, for sharing what you pray! As the Desert Fathers say, I was greatly edified. On being a witness... People are rarely converted because a
                                Message 15 of 29 , Nov 9, 2007
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                                  Thank you, everyone, for sharing what you pray! As the Desert Fathers say, I was greatly edified.
                                  On being a witness...
                                  People are rarely converted because a stranger presses the Gospel in their face (or makes the sign of the cross in public). The more likely reason people convert is because they have a friend or family member that can be a constant witness to them. Quite fitting that they learn about the relationship Christ has with men through the relationship of the Christian to themselves.
                                  Thank you for being friends to me.

                                  Yours in Christ,
                                  phos








                                  To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.comFrom: xcjorr@...: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:35:09 -0500Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions





                                  I make the sign of the cross over my food because it is less conspicuous.I have also been struck by a comment made by the late Fr. John Krestiankinin the book of his letters, "May God Give you Wisdom" (St Herman Press), tobelieving spouses of unbelievers. He said, essentially, don't go on too farahead. The same can be true of unbelievers around us in everyday life - wecan't be see as such odd ducks that we are disregarded. The Letter toDiognetus states clearly that we live as other men in various countries, butare always citizens only of heaven. In the world, but not of the world. Itend to prefer to be as 'normal' as the next guy insofar as I can remain anOrthodox Christian, never hiding, but never affecting differences to make apoint. When St. Anthony the Great walked through Alexandria preachingwithout words, he was simply himself, in his regular, poor clothes, walking;he wasn't prostrating, and crossing, and raising his hands as an orans inprayer, etc. He was simply a Christian, walking.That being said, crossing oneself in prayer at any times should never bedissuaded. I often do so walking down the hallway of my office, on thestreet, etc., but as a means to bless myself with the cross and not totestify to others - and many take such actions to be a conscious attempt tomake unbelievers uncomfortable or as a 'witness'.ChristopherOn 11/9/07, James <jimi@...> wrote:>> I was reminded in an offline note that I probably should not worry> so much about what others think and go ahead and cross myself. It> seems my Priest said essentially the same thing in a sermon awhile> back. May the Lord strengthen my resolve and help me remember to do> this.>> Yeah, I probably still have some of that old Lutheran "don't draw> attention to oneself" mentality going, huh?>> James/JiMi>> p.s. - Thanks to Peter for reminding me I'm not in Lake Woebegone>> --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,> "James" <jimi@...>> wrote:> >> > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,> "JWF" <frfenton@>> > wrote:> > >> > > In the Western Rite, we commonly say this prayer before meals:> > >> > >> > >> > > Bless us, O Lord, and these thy gifts which we are about to> receive> > from thy> > > bounty, through Christ our Lord.> > >> >> >> > I've used this prayer for several years now, since I spotted it in> the> > little red prayer book that the Antiochian Archdiocese puts out.> It> > was already familiar.> >> > First I say the Lord's Prayer, crossing myself (unless the> situation> > seems that it would appear a spectacle or showy), and then "Bless> us,> > O Lord.." making the sign of the cross over the food.> >>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                  _________________________________________________________________
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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Lisa
                                  with respect to blessing food/crossing oneself in public (and being deeply in the Lutheran-don t-draw-attention-to-yourself mind) what do you non-clergy do
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Nov 9, 2007
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                                    with respect to blessing food/crossing oneself in public (and being
                                    deeply in the Lutheran-don't-draw-attention-to-yourself mind)

                                    what do you non-clergy do when in a situation like going out to lunch
                                    or dinner with co-workers? Pray silently, cross yourself ...? (and I am
                                    making a distinction between coworkers and other friends you might
                                    share meals with)

                                    Lisa
                                  • Brian Fink
                                    Dear Dave, Im a sleep deprived father of three... I cant do anything seriously anymore. Brian ... From: daved.driscoll To:
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Nov 10, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Dear Dave,
                                      Im a sleep deprived father of three... I cant do anything seriously anymore.

                                      Brian


                                      ----- Original Message ----
                                      From: daved.driscoll <NorthlandWords@...>
                                      To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2007 1:01:18 PM
                                      Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                                      Yes. I'm not sure of the intended tone--but, seriously--my "wayward"
                                      younger 16-year-old little brother was very much brought "back to the
                                      fold" by such informalities. It has its place.
                                      --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, Brian Fink <brfinkster@ ...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > What about "Ruba dub dub, thanks for the grub"?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message ----
                                      > From: Anastasia Theodoridis anastasiatheo01@ ...
                                      > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                      > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 4:11:01 PM
                                      > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Two Questions
                                      >
                                      > We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy
                                      servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the
                                      "Amen," we usually pray some extemporaneous things, always including,
                                      "Thank You for Your love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings
                                      of that day. "Thank you for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.
                                      >
                                      > Anastasia
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >




                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Anastasia Theodoridis
                                      Dave, I ve known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry about what he means. ... Anastasia [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Nov 10, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Dave, I've known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry about what he means.

                                        :-)

                                        Anastasia



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Northland Words
                                        Hello Anastasia- Thanks for the note and the concern. I wasn t worried, but concurring. Freedom and familiarity with Him, while insolent, is perhaps no more
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Nov 11, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Hello Anastasia-

                                          Thanks for the note and the concern. I wasn't worried, but concurring.
                                          Freedom and familiarity with Him, while insolent, is perhaps no more
                                          insolent than all our other human attempts to honor Him, even when
                                          undertaken with what we feel as earnest solemnity. It is only by His Grace
                                          that He accepts our solemn prayers rather than laughing at them. (But I
                                          probably chose an unfortunate e-mail to chime in.)



                                          Thanks for all your posts-I read them eagerly.

                                          Daved



                                          _____

                                          From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                          [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                                          Theodoridis
                                          Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 7:47 AM
                                          To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions



                                          Dave, I've known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry
                                          about what he means.

                                          :-)

                                          Anastasia

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Northland Words
                                          Thanks, Brian- My seven children regularly trundle me off to bed, these days, so I lack that clarity of humor that sleep deprivation so graciously provides.
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Nov 11, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Thanks, Brian-

                                            My seven children regularly trundle me off to bed, these days, so I lack
                                            that clarity of humor that sleep deprivation so graciously provides. Enjoy
                                            it. I was glad to see your rubba dub dub (which I understand to be an Early
                                            Slovakian phrase meaning rubba dub dub).



                                            I can still see my father trying to pat his head, rub his stomach, and fold
                                            his hands-all the while addressing this jocular thanksgiving to His Gracious
                                            Creator. At the same time, my "this-church-junk-is-a-bunch-of-stuff"
                                            brother laughing and joining my father in thanksgiving. My note was
                                            probably out of place in this solemn forum. Nonetheless: Yeah God!

                                            Thanks,

                                            Daved



                                            _____

                                            From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                            [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Fink
                                            Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 6:14 AM
                                            To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions



                                            Dear Dave,
                                            Im a sleep deprived father of three... I cant do anything seriously anymore.

                                            Brian

                                            ----- Original Message ----
                                            From: daved.driscoll <NorthlandWords@ <mailto:NorthlandWords%40acegroup.cc>
                                            acegroup.cc>
                                            To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            t@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2007 1:01:18 PM
                                            Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                                            Yes. I'm not sure of the intended tone--but, seriously--my "wayward"
                                            younger 16-year-old little brother was very much brought "back to the
                                            fold" by such informalities. It has its place.
                                            --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, Brian Fink <brfinkster@ ...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            > What about "Ruba dub dub, thanks for the grub"?
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message ----
                                            > From: Anastasia Theodoridis anastasiatheo01@ ...
                                            > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                            > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 4:11:01 PM
                                            > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Two Questions
                                            >
                                            > We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy
                                            servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the
                                            "Amen," we usually pray some extemporaneous things, always including,
                                            "Thank You for Your love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings
                                            of that day. "Thank you for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.
                                            >
                                            > Anastasia
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Northland Words
                                            er . . . I obviously meant his [my dad s] Gracious Creator, not His Gracious Creator. I trust that God, in His beneficence, will forgive yet another
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Nov 11, 2007
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              er . . . I obviously meant "his [my dad's] Gracious Creator," not "His
                                              Gracious Creator." I trust that God, in His beneficence, will forgive yet
                                              another insult from me. Yikes.

                                              _____

                                              From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                              [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Northland Words
                                              Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:06 PM
                                              To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions



                                              Thanks, Brian-

                                              My seven children regularly trundle me off to bed, these days, so I lack
                                              that clarity of humor that sleep deprivation so graciously provides. Enjoy
                                              it. I was glad to see your rubba dub dub (which I understand to be an Early
                                              Slovakian phrase meaning rubba dub dub).

                                              I can still see my father trying to pat his head, rub his stomach, and fold
                                              his hands-all the while addressing this jocular thanksgiving to His Gracious
                                              Creator. At the same time, my "this-church-junk-is-a-bunch-of-stuff"
                                              brother laughing and joining my father in thanksgiving. My note was
                                              probably out of place in this solemn forum. Nonetheless: Yeah God!

                                              Thanks,

                                              Daved

                                              _____

                                              From: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                                              t@yahoogroups.com
                                              [mailto:LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                                              t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Fink
                                              Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 6:14 AM
                                              To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                                              t@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                                              Dear Dave,
                                              Im a sleep deprived father of three... I cant do anything seriously anymore.

                                              Brian

                                              ----- Original Message ----
                                              From: daved.driscoll <NorthlandWords@ <mailto:NorthlandWords%40acegroup.cc>
                                              acegroup.cc>
                                              To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                                              t@yahoogroups. <mailto:t%40yahoogroups.com> com
                                              Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2007 1:01:18 PM
                                              Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                                              Yes. I'm not sure of the intended tone--but, seriously--my "wayward"
                                              younger 16-year-old little brother was very much brought "back to the
                                              fold" by such informalities. It has its place.
                                              --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, Brian Fink <brfinkster@ ...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              > What about "Ruba dub dub, thanks for the grub"?
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ----- Original Message ----
                                              > From: Anastasia Theodoridis anastasiatheo01@ ...
                                              > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                              > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 4:11:01 PM
                                              > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Two Questions
                                              >
                                              > We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy
                                              servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the
                                              "Amen," we usually pray some extemporaneous things, always including,
                                              "Thank You for Your love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings
                                              of that day. "Thank you for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.
                                              >
                                              > Anastasia
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Anastasia Theodoridis
                                              Hi, Dave,, Brian wasn t poking fun at God, either, but at us, the Orthodox. He doesn t feel that free and familiar with God. BTW, he s a seminarian at Holy
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Nov 11, 2007
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Hi, Dave,,

                                                Brian wasn't poking fun at God, either, but at us, the Orthodox. He doesn't feel that free and familiar with God. BTW, he's a seminarian at Holy Cross in Brookline. Well, his studies there have been interrupted by family matters, so he's not DOING seminary at the moment, but as he certainly intends to continue, I suppose we could still call him a seminarian.

                                                I also look forward to your notes. It must be so weird to be an Orthodox among those Lutherans!

                                                Seven children! You are amazing.

                                                love,
                                                Anastasia
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: Northland Words
                                                To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:54 PM
                                                Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions


                                                Hello Anastasia-

                                                Thanks for the note and the concern. I wasn't worried, but concurring.
                                                Freedom and familiarity with Him, while insolent, is perhaps no more
                                                insolent than all our other human attempts to honor Him, even when
                                                undertaken with what we feel as earnest solemnity. It is only by His Grace
                                                that He accepts our solemn prayers rather than laughing at them. (But I
                                                probably chose an unfortunate e-mail to chime in.)

                                                Thanks for all your posts-I read them eagerly.

                                                Daved

                                                _____

                                                From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                                [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                                                Theodoridis
                                                Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 7:47 AM
                                                To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                                                Dave, I've known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry
                                                about what he means.

                                                :-)

                                                Anastasia

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Brian Fink
                                                Dear Dave, I m serious about my faith and the Orthodox church. But we do have fun at times too. Read www.theoniondome.com sometime. Its not as good as it
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Nov 13, 2007
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Dear Dave,

                                                  I'm serious about my faith and the Orthodox church. But we do have fun at times too. Read www.theoniondome.com sometime. Its not as good as it used to be, but still pretty funny.

                                                  Once, I was carrying the crucifix for the Great Procession. When I came in from the right deacons door, there was no room for me to stop and put the crucifix back in its holder. So I had to keep going to let everyone behind me by, carrying this 8 ft tall crucifix. The assistant ecclesiarch looked at me oddly and told me, "I know Jesus told us to pick up and carry our cross but you CAN put that one down back there." My spiritual father and quite a few members of the faculty at HCHC are quite humorous about theology. Maybe its just me, but the Greeks are FAR funnier than the Russians :-P

                                                  One joke about the Orthodox seminaries is that at St. Tikhon's, you learn to swing a censer properly. At St. Vlad's, a seminarian learns the theology about swinging a censor. At Holy Cross, we learn how to raise money through a Greek festival and get the best deal on a censor.

                                                  Overall things are going well. I'm working two part time jobs and on Mondays and Tuesdays, I'm up from 6am to 1am which makes for a LONG day. I'm hoping that the first part-time job, manageing a help desk for a 4 person network management company will go full-time and I acan quit the 4-midnight job. I miss classes dearly. I've been counting down the months until I go back to school, 2 down and 10 to go.

                                                  Brian


                                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                                  From: Anastasia Theodoridis <anastasiatheo01@...>
                                                  To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 1:25:54 AM
                                                  Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                                                  Hi, Dave,,

                                                  Brian wasn't poking fun at God, either, but at us, the Orthodox. He doesn't feel that free and familiar with God. BTW, he's a seminarian at Holy Cross in Brookline. Well, his studies there have been interrupted by family matters, so he's not DOING seminary at the moment, but as he certainly intends to continue, I suppose we could still call him a seminarian.

                                                  I also look forward to your notes. It must be so weird to be an Orthodox among those Lutherans!

                                                  Seven children! You are amazing.

                                                  love,
                                                  Anastasia
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: Northland Words
                                                  To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                                  Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:54 PM
                                                  Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Two Questions

                                                  Hello Anastasia-

                                                  Thanks for the note and the concern. I wasn't worried, but concurring.
                                                  Freedom and familiarity with Him, while insolent, is perhaps no more
                                                  insolent than all our other human attempts to honor Him, even when
                                                  undertaken with what we feel as earnest solemnity. It is only by His Grace
                                                  that He accepts our solemn prayers rather than laughing at them. (But I
                                                  probably chose an unfortunate e-mail to chime in.)

                                                  Thanks for all your posts-I read them eagerly.

                                                  Daved

                                                  _____

                                                  From: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                                  [mailto:LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                                                  Theodoridis
                                                  Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 7:47 AM
                                                  To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                                  Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Two Questions

                                                  Dave, I've known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry
                                                  about what he means.

                                                  :-)

                                                  Anastasia

                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • James
                                                  Dear Brian, My friend Antone Meyer is currently a student there. He had intended to start when you did, but ended up needing to delay a year. Perhaps you
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Nov 13, 2007
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Dear Brian,

                                                    My friend Antone Meyer is currently a student there. He had intended
                                                    to start when you did, but ended up needing to delay a year. Perhaps
                                                    you will graduate in the same class. Antone is one of four persons
                                                    from my parish that graduated from Evangel University. Antone even
                                                    lived on the same exact hall of the same dorm I did, only a few years
                                                    later.

                                                    May the joy of the Lord be your strength!

                                                    James in Des Moines

                                                    --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Brian Fink
                                                    <brfinkster@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Dear Dave,
                                                    >
                                                    > I'm serious about my faith and the Orthodox church. But we do have
                                                    fun at times too. Read www.theoniondome.com sometime. Its not as
                                                    good as it used to be, but still pretty funny.
                                                    >
                                                    > Once, I was carrying the crucifix for the Great Procession. When I
                                                    came in from the right deacons door, there was no room for me to stop
                                                    and put the crucifix back in its holder. So I had to keep going to
                                                    let everyone behind me by, carrying this 8 ft tall crucifix. The
                                                    assistant ecclesiarch looked at me oddly and told me, "I know Jesus
                                                    told us to pick up and carry our cross but you CAN put that one down
                                                    back there." My spiritual father and quite a few members of the
                                                    faculty at HCHC are quite humorous about theology. Maybe its just
                                                    me, but the Greeks are FAR funnier than the Russians :-P
                                                    >
                                                    > One joke about the Orthodox seminaries is that at St. Tikhon's, you
                                                    learn to swing a censer properly. At St. Vlad's, a seminarian learns
                                                    the theology about swinging a censor. At Holy Cross, we learn how to
                                                    raise money through a Greek festival and get the best deal on a
                                                    censor.
                                                    >
                                                    > Overall things are going well. I'm working two part time jobs and
                                                    on Mondays and Tuesdays, I'm up from 6am to 1am which makes for a
                                                    LONG day. I'm hoping that the first part-time job, manageing a help
                                                    desk for a 4 person network management company will go full-time and
                                                    I acan quit the 4-midnight job. I miss classes dearly. I've been
                                                    counting down the months until I go back to school, 2 down and 10 to
                                                    go.
                                                    >
                                                    > Brian
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                  • Northland Words
                                                    Hi Brian- The psychology of humor is pretty revealing about human motivation and intention-about our fears and weaknesses. I ve never seen it discussed, much,
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Nov 14, 2007
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Hi Brian-

                                                      The psychology of humor is pretty revealing about human motivation and
                                                      intention-about our fears and weaknesses. I've never seen it discussed,
                                                      much, in theological terms, however. It would be, I think, a rich mine. We
                                                      are often amused by the attempts of children to be earnest and solemn. But
                                                      in one sense, we are all little children. The link you sent, theoniondome,
                                                      seems to concur: "God laughs at the foolishness of men (Psalm 2:4); I think
                                                      it is healthy for us to laugh at ourselves."



                                                      In another sense, of course, we are His Bride or we are a royal priesthood
                                                      or co-heirs with Christ. And to the extent that those bolder metaphors
                                                      apply, laughing at our foibles or treating Him with jocular familiarity may
                                                      be less appropriate. The awareness of our own weakness, however, can hardly
                                                      be emphasized too strongly.



                                                      The job world does sound tough. Ten months to go? I hope you can hang on.



                                                      Daved





                                                      _____

                                                      From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                                      [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Fink
                                                      Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:26 AM
                                                      To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions



                                                      Dear Dave,

                                                      I'm serious about my faith and the Orthodox church. But we do have fun at
                                                      times too. Read www.theoniondome.com sometime. Its not as good as it used to
                                                      be, but still pretty funny.

                                                      Once, I was carrying the crucifix for the Great Procession. When I came in
                                                      from the right deacons door, there was no room for me to stop and put the
                                                      crucifix back in its holder. So I had to keep going to let everyone behind
                                                      me by, carrying this 8 ft tall crucifix. The assistant ecclesiarch looked at
                                                      me oddly and told me, "I know Jesus told us to pick up and carry our cross
                                                      but you CAN put that one down back there." My spiritual father and quite a
                                                      few members of the faculty at HCHC are quite humorous about theology. Maybe
                                                      its just me, but the Greeks are FAR funnier than the Russians :-P

                                                      One joke about the Orthodox seminaries is that at St. Tikhon's, you learn to
                                                      swing a censer properly. At St. Vlad's, a seminarian learns the theology
                                                      about swinging a censor. At Holy Cross, we learn how to raise money through
                                                      a Greek festival and get the best deal on a censor.

                                                      Overall things are going well. I'm working two part time jobs and on Mondays
                                                      and Tuesdays, I'm up from 6am to 1am which makes for a LONG day. I'm hoping
                                                      that the first part-time job, manageing a help desk for a 4 person network
                                                      management company will go full-time and I acan quit the 4-midnight job. I
                                                      miss classes dearly. I've been counting down the months until I go back to
                                                      school, 2 down and 10 to go.

                                                      Brian

                                                      ----- Original Message ----
                                                      From: Anastasia Theodoridis <anastasiatheo01@
                                                      <mailto:anastasiatheo01%40verizon.net> verizon.net>
                                                      To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                      t@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 1:25:54 AM
                                                      Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                                                      Hi, Dave,,

                                                      Brian wasn't poking fun at God, either, but at us, the Orthodox. He doesn't
                                                      feel that free and familiar with God. BTW, he's a seminarian at Holy Cross
                                                      in Brookline. Well, his studies there have been interrupted by family
                                                      matters, so he's not DOING seminary at the moment, but as he certainly
                                                      intends to continue, I suppose we could still call him a seminarian.

                                                      I also look forward to your notes. It must be so weird to be an Orthodox
                                                      among those Lutherans!

                                                      Seven children! You are amazing.

                                                      love,
                                                      Anastasia
                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      From: Northland Words
                                                      To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                                      Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:54 PM
                                                      Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Two Questions

                                                      Hello Anastasia-

                                                      Thanks for the note and the concern. I wasn't worried, but concurring.
                                                      Freedom and familiarity with Him, while insolent, is perhaps no more
                                                      insolent than all our other human attempts to honor Him, even when
                                                      undertaken with what we feel as earnest solemnity. It is only by His Grace
                                                      that He accepts our solemn prayers rather than laughing at them. (But I
                                                      probably chose an unfortunate e-mail to chime in.)

                                                      Thanks for all your posts-I read them eagerly.

                                                      Daved

                                                      _____

                                                      From: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                                      [mailto:LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                                                      Theodoridis
                                                      Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 7:47 AM
                                                      To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                                      Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Two Questions

                                                      Dave, I've known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry
                                                      about what he means.

                                                      :-)

                                                      Anastasia

                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • tharman32
                                                      I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer some insight on. Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans after the
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , May 11, 2008
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer some
                                                        insight on.

                                                        Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans after
                                                        the Fall? When I read the saints I see they are well aware of thier
                                                        sinfulness and their need for God's grace, but are we "that bad"?
                                                        (Sorry to phrase it in such a trivial manner, but I can't find the
                                                        right words...)

                                                        Also does the Orthodox church believe in the "angry God" theory? (ie
                                                        the "sinners in the hands of an angry God theology"). From my limited
                                                        knowledge I beleive the answer is a loud no. But I am not sure.

                                                        Thank you for any insight or recommended readings you suggest!
                                                        Todd
                                                      • Fr John Fenton
                                                        Hi Todd, Christ ist auferstanden! (for the German speaking) You asked two straight-forward questions, so permit me to give straight-forward answers. 1. The
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , May 12, 2008
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          Hi Todd,

                                                          Christ ist auferstanden! (for the German speaking)

                                                          You asked two straight-forward questions, so permit me to give straight-forward answers.

                                                          1. The doctrine of the "total depravity of man" is a distinctly Calvinist or Arminian (NOT Armenian) teaching, which is often ascribed or held by Lutherans and is understandably but incorrectly ascribed to St Augustine, is roundly rejected by the Orthodox Church. Among other things, it is built upon the notions of original guilt which is also rejected by the Church.

                                                          2. While the Scriptures speak of God's anger, the "angry God theory" is rejected by the Church. Among other things, it suggests a dual personality in God and ascribes to Him a sinful human characteristic.

                                                          Certainly, the answers to these questions are more much nuanced and therefore will most likely raise other questions. For reading, let me suggest "The Orthodox Way" by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware and "Byzantine Theology" by Fr John Meyendorff.




                                                          Fr John W Fenton, Priest
                                                          Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
                                                          A Western Rite Parish in the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America

                                                          frfenton@...
                                                          www.holyincarnation.org






                                                          ----- Original Message ----
                                                          From: tharman32 <tharman32@...>
                                                          To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 4:34:56 PM
                                                          Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Two Questions

                                                          I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer some
                                                          insight on.

                                                          Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans after
                                                          the Fall? When I read the saints I see they are well aware of thier
                                                          sinfulness and their need for God's grace, but are we "that bad"?
                                                          (Sorry to phrase it in such a trivial manner, but I can't find the
                                                          right words...)

                                                          Also does the Orthodox church believe in the "angry God" theory? (ie
                                                          the "sinners in the hands of an angry God theology"). From my limited
                                                          knowledge I beleive the answer is a loud no. But I am not sure.

                                                          Thank you for any insight or recommended readings you suggest!
                                                          Todd




                                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        • BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
                                                          Todd, For me the Orthodox perspective is positive. It does not matter how badly a human person is damaged by error / sin, as the person remains at core God s
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , May 12, 2008
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            Todd,

                                                            For me the Orthodox perspective is positive.

                                                            It does not matter how badly a human person is damaged by error / sin,
                                                            as the person remains at core God's good creation and is therefore
                                                            capable of restoration.

                                                            Any other view leads to hatred towards God.

                                                            God is angry with sin but loves the sinner.
                                                            In Jesus Christ love overcomes anger.
                                                            We live in this new contract / testamentum with God.

                                                            Peter




                                                            tharman32 <tharman32@...> wrote:
                                                            I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer some
                                                            insight on.

                                                            Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans after
                                                            the Fall? When I read the saints I see they are well aware of thier
                                                            sinfulness and their need for God's grace, but are we "that bad"?
                                                            (Sorry to phrase it in such a trivial manner, but I can't find the
                                                            right words...)

                                                            Also does the Orthodox church believe in the "angry God" theory? (ie
                                                            the "sinners in the hands of an angry God theology"). From my limited
                                                            knowledge I beleive the answer is a loud no. But I am not sure.

                                                            Thank you for any insight or recommended readings you suggest!
                                                            Todd






                                                            ---------------------------------
                                                            Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

                                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          • Dave @¿@¬
                                                            Howdy Todd! Er ist wahrhaftig auferstanden! The total depravity of man would seem to contradict the Orthodox concepts of sin and theosis. How is man to become
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , May 19, 2008
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              Howdy Todd!

                                                              Er ist wahrhaftig auferstanden!

                                                              The total depravity of man would seem to contradict
                                                              the Orthodox concepts of sin and theosis.

                                                              How is man to "become a god" (lower case "g") unless
                                                              there is still some element within man that would allow
                                                              God to work this change within him?

                                                              Dave


                                                              --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Fr John Fenton
                                                              <frfenton@...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > Hi Todd,
                                                              >
                                                              > Christ ist auferstanden! (for the German speaking)
                                                              >
                                                              > You asked two straight-forward questions, so permit me to give
                                                              straight-forward answers.
                                                              >
                                                              > 1. The doctrine of the "total depravity of man" is a distinctly
                                                              Calvinist or Arminian (NOT Armenian) teaching, which is often
                                                              ascribed or held by Lutherans and is understandably but incorrectly
                                                              ascribed to St Augustine, is roundly rejected by the Orthodox
                                                              Church. Among other things, it is built upon the notions of original
                                                              guilt which is also rejected by the Church.
                                                              >
                                                              > 2. While the Scriptures speak of God's anger, the "angry God
                                                              theory" is rejected by the Church. Among other things, it suggests a
                                                              dual personality in God and ascribes to Him a sinful human
                                                              characteristic.
                                                              >
                                                              > Certainly, the answers to these questions are more much nuanced
                                                              and therefore will most likely raise other questions. For reading,
                                                              let me suggest "The Orthodox Way" by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
                                                              and "Byzantine Theology" by Fr John Meyendorff.
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > Fr John W Fenton, Priest
                                                              > Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
                                                              > A Western Rite Parish in the Antiochian Orthodox Christian
                                                              Archdiocese of North America
                                                              >
                                                              > frfenton@...
                                                              > www.holyincarnation.org
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > ----- Original Message ----
                                                              > From: tharman32 <tharman32@...>
                                                              > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                                              > Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 4:34:56 PM
                                                              > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Two Questions
                                                              >
                                                              > I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer
                                                              some
                                                              > insight on.
                                                              >
                                                              > Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans
                                                              after
                                                              > the Fall? When I read the saints I see they are well aware of
                                                              thier
                                                              > sinfulness and their need for God's grace, but are we "that bad"?
                                                              > (Sorry to phrase it in such a trivial manner, but I can't find the
                                                              > right words...)
                                                              >
                                                              > Also does the Orthodox church believe in the "angry God" theory?
                                                              (ie
                                                              > the "sinners in the hands of an angry God theology"). From my
                                                              limited
                                                              > knowledge I beleive the answer is a loud no. But I am not sure.
                                                              >
                                                              > Thank you for any insight or recommended readings you suggest!
                                                              > Todd
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                              >
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