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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Confession

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  • Christopher Orr
    ... I should be more clear. The specific Rite and form of Confession as a distinct Mystery (Sacrament) with what we understand as the recognizable
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 19, 2007
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      On 10/19/07, krolechka <krolechka@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear in Christ brother Christopher!
      >
      > I knew about the Confessions being public but I never realized they
      > didn't really exist from the first days of the Church. As I
      > understood, people confessed before being baptized. Did they not
      > confess after that? no later sins forgiven? That'd be SCARY to me.
      > I'm not any good in Church's history. I hope you can tell me how it was.
      >
      > Thank you!
      > Sasha
      > .
      >
      >
      >

      I should be more clear. The specific Rite and form of Confession as a
      distinct Mystery (Sacrament) with what we understand as the recognizable
      requirements of the Sacrament developed over time. Confession was commanded
      and given in the New Testament, so it was there from the start. The
      Apostles were given the power to bind and loose - not all believers in the
      Orthodox understanding of these passages - and this power was conferred by
      the Apostles on the bishops and presbyters. The Sacrament of Confession
      (Repentance, Penance, Reconciliation) began to develop into its more
      traditional form due to the persecutions and the need to develop a ways to
      reintroduce fallen members into the Church and offer forgiveness while at
      the same to recognizing the seriousness of denying Christ, and also honoring
      the sacrifices of those that did not fall during the persecution. Something
      of the emotional difficulty the Church wrestled with can be seen in more
      recent times in the interactions of Orthodox Christians that suffered
      persecution, maiming and martyrdom under Communism, those that fled the
      country to live in better conditions, those that collaborated to greater or
      lesser extents with the atheistic authorities and those that denied Christ
      by joining the Soviets but then repented and sought to rejoin the Church.
      These are questions not only of how to reintegrate the Disciples that
      abandoned Christ, but how to reintegrate a Judas and to integrate a Paul.
      At first, public confession of sins was required as communal balm, later as
      such persecutions and apostasies lessened the practice returned to more of a
      private affair with the priest standing in the place of both Christ (and His
      Body, the Church) and the local community.

      It also gained much from the monastic practice of the revelation of
      thoughts, which was guidance by an experienced elder to a young monk/nun in
      spiritual warfare, overcoming logismoi (thoughts) insinuated by the evil
      one, etc. The argument can be made, as it is for monasticism in general,
      that the monastic form of revelation of thoughts more closely resembles the
      practice of the early Church, but whether this is true or not the fact is
      that Confession in its 'modern' Sacramental form has been consistently and
      universally held since at least the 300s. Speculation as to what the Church
      did during the years it was under persecution and (literally) underground is
      just that, speculation - and speculation along the lines of the search for
      the 'Historical Jesus' that normally leads to a recreation of Jesus in the
      historian's own image (an idol). This broad conciliar acceptance is the
      Orthodox proof for the divine nature of the gift of the Mystery since the
      Body as a whole cannot err or the gates of Hades will have overcome the
      Church making Christ a liar (and therefore not God, not raised, and leaving
      us in our sins, damned).

      Christopher


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • krolechka
      Thank you for the detailed explanation, Christopher!
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 22, 2007
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        Thank you for the detailed explanation, Christopher!
      • Christopher Orr
        *...no later sins forgiven? That d be SCARY to me.* ** I should also note that communing of the Eucharist offers one the ... This is also seen in the fact that
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 22, 2007
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          *...no later sins forgiven? That'd be SCARY to me.*
          **
          I should also note that communing of the Eucharist offers one the
          forgiveness of sins, too. As the priest says:


          > "The servant/handmaiden of God communes of the Precious Body and Blood of
          > our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ unto remission of sins and unto life
          > everlasting."


          This is also seen in the fact that following the lifetime confession of an
          adult convert to the Orthodox faith, the prayer of absolution is not said.
          Absolution is given in the communing of the Lord's Body and Blood that are
          received (traditionally) immediately following the Mysteries of Baptism and
          Chrismation in the Divine Liturgy.

          So, even apart from a formal Sacrament of Confession, forgiveness of sins
          was offered sinful humanity "in the breaking of bread".

          Christopher


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • krolechka
          ... Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ unto remission of sins and unto life everlasting. ... sins was offered sinful humanity in the breaking of
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 26, 2007
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            > "The servant/handmaiden of God communes of the Precious Body and
            Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ unto remission of sins and
            unto life everlasting."
            >
            > So, even apart from a formal Sacrament of Confession, forgiveness of
            sins was offered sinful humanity "in the breaking of bread".

            Interesting... it may seem obvious to many, but people in some
            churches (like Russian) simply don't think of it since the Confession
            is required before each Communion (unless the communican comes to the
            Chalice every Liturgy).
            But if the forgiveness is offered at the Communion, why have a
            separate Sacrament of Confession?
          • Christopher Orr
            The prayers before communion make it very clear that Communion is a fearful, wonderful and dangerous thing. The Russian practice has been to confess prior to
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 26, 2007
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              The prayers before communion make it very clear that Communion is a fearful,
              wonderful and dangerous thing. The Russian practice has been to confess
              prior to communion so as to prepare as much as possible for uniting
              ourselves with the consuming fire that is the Lord. The prayers are
              beautiful. You can read them here:

              http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/prayerbook/cont1.htm#21

              And the Canon of Preparation Before Holy Communion here:

              http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/prayerbook/cancomu.htm

              The ones that immediately come to mind are:

              > Behold I approach for Divine Communion.
              > O Creator, let me not be burnt by communicating,
              > For Thou art Fire which burns the unworthy.
              > But purify me from every stain.
              > Tremble, O man, when you see the deifying Blood,
              > For it is a coal that burns the unworthy.
              > The Body of God both deifies and nourishes;
              > It deifies the spirit and wondrously nourishes the mind.

              Thou hast ravished me with longing, O Christ, and with Thy divine love Thou
              > hast changed me. But burn up with spiritual fire my sins and make me worthy
              > to be filled with delight in Thee, that I may leap for joy, O gracious Lord,
              > and magnify Thy two comings.
              >
              > Into the splendor of Thy Saints how shall I who am unworthy enter? For if
              > I dare to enter the bridechamber, my vesture betrays me, for it is not a
              > wedding garment, and as a prisoner I shall be cast out by the Angels.
              > Cleanse my soul from pollution and save me, O Lord, in Thy love for men.
              >
              > Sovereign Lover of men, Lord Jesus my God, let not these Holy Things be to
              > me for judgment through my being unworthy, but for the purification and
              > sanctification of my soul and body, and as a pledge of the life and kingdom
              > to come. For it is good for me to cling to God and to place in the Lord my
              > hope of salvation.
              >
              Christopher


              On 10/26/07, krolechka <krolechka@...> wrote:
              >
              > > "The servant/handmaiden of God communes of the Precious Body and
              > Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ unto remission of sins and
              > unto life everlasting."
              > >
              > > So, even apart from a formal Sacrament of Confession, forgiveness of
              > sins was offered sinful humanity "in the breaking of bread".
              >
              > Interesting... it may seem obvious to many, but people in some
              > churches (like Russian) simply don't think of it since the Confession
              > is required before each Communion (unless the communican comes to the
              > Chalice every Liturgy).
              > But if the forgiveness is offered at the Communion, why have a
              > separate Sacrament of Confession?
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
              In the Orthodox Old Calendarist parishes which I attend, individual [private] confession is not required prior to each communion of the Body and Blood of our
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 26, 2007
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                In the Orthodox Old Calendarist parishes which I attend, individual [private] confession is not required prior to each communion of the Body and Blood of our Lord. Nevertheless there is an expectation of ongoing spiritual direction and periodic confession and absolution. In both Western Rite and Eastern Rite in these settings there is a general absolution of the eligible communicants just before administration of the consecrated elements. After more than twenty years using the before and after communion prayers indicated by Christopher, I very much miss them if for some reason I cut them short. It is in the devout reading of the liturgical and paraliturgical texts of the church that her mind set and faith become clear, that her insight into the true sense of the Sacred Scriptures is laid out before us. Peter

                Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote: The prayers before communion make it very clear that Communion is a fearful,
                wonderful and dangerous thing. The Russian practice has been to confess
                prior to communion so as to prepare as much as possible for uniting
                ourselves with the consuming fire that is the Lord. The prayers are
                beautiful. You can read them here:

                http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/prayerbook/cont1.htm#21

                And the Canon of Preparation Before Holy Communion here:

                http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/prayerbook/cancomu.htm

                The ones that immediately come to mind are:

                > Behold I approach for Divine Communion.
                > O Creator, let me not be burnt by communicating,
                > For Thou art Fire which burns the unworthy.
                > But purify me from every stain.
                > Tremble, O man, when you see the deifying Blood,
                > For it is a coal that burns the unworthy.
                > The Body of God both deifies and nourishes;
                > It deifies the spirit and wondrously nourishes the mind.

                Thou hast ravished me with longing, O Christ, and with Thy divine love Thou
                > hast changed me. But burn up with spiritual fire my sins and make me worthy
                > to be filled with delight in Thee, that I may leap for joy, O gracious Lord,
                > and magnify Thy two comings.
                >
                > Into the splendor of Thy Saints how shall I who am unworthy enter? For if
                > I dare to enter the bridechamber, my vesture betrays me, for it is not a
                > wedding garment, and as a prisoner I shall be cast out by the Angels.
                > Cleanse my soul from pollution and save me, O Lord, in Thy love for men.
                >
                > Sovereign Lover of men, Lord Jesus my God, let not these Holy Things be to
                > me for judgment through my being unworthy, but for the purification and
                > sanctification of my soul and body, and as a pledge of the life and kingdom
                > to come. For it is good for me to cling to God and to place in the Lord my
                > hope of salvation.
                >
                Christopher

                On 10/26/07, krolechka <krolechka@...> wrote:
                >
                > > "The servant/handmaiden of God communes of the Precious Body and
                > Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ unto remission of sins and
                > unto life everlasting."
                > >
                > > So, even apart from a formal Sacrament of Confession, forgiveness of
                > sins was offered sinful humanity "in the breaking of bread".
                >
                > Interesting... it may seem obvious to many, but people in some
                > churches (like Russian) simply don't think of it since the Confession
                > is required before each Communion (unless the communican comes to the
                > Chalice every Liturgy).
                > But if the forgiveness is offered at the Communion, why have a
                > separate Sacrament of Confession?
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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              • JiMiRoYaL
                ... a fearful, ... confess ... are ... And you can listen to them chanted in English (as well as morning and evening prayers) through this site (follow their
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 26, 2007
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                  --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Orr"
                  <xcjorr@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > The prayers before communion make it very clear that Communion is
                  a fearful,
                  > wonderful and dangerous thing. The Russian practice has been to
                  confess
                  > prior to communion so as to prepare as much as possible for uniting
                  > ourselves with the consuming fire that is the Lord. The prayers
                  are
                  > beautiful. You can read them here:
                  >
                  > http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/prayerbook/cont1.htm#21
                  >


                  And you can listen to them chanted in English (as well as morning
                  and evening prayers) through this site (follow their links on the
                  left):

                  http://www.pomog.org/


                  JiMi
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