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Re: What's wrong with these prayers?

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  • Andrew
    I ll be honest, some of these prayers do make me uneasy. I don t mind so much asking the intercession of the saints, in fact the practice seems to beautifully
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 1, 2007
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      I'll be honest, some of these prayers do make me uneasy. I don't mind
      so much asking the intercession of the saints, in fact the practice
      seems to beautifully enhance our understanding of the communion of
      saints, but saying things like 'all my hope I place in thee' and 'have
      mercy on me' just rubs me the wrong way.

      Christopher, I appreciate your numerous patristic quotations on the
      historical pedigree of the practice. But, for my money, there does
      seem to be development over time - from acknowledging that the saints
      pray for us, to asking their intercessions, to saying things like
      'from all dangers that can be do thou deliver us'. There just doesn't
      seem to be any cold hard evidence of robust invocation in the 2nd
      century, which makes me question whether it is truly of Apostolic origin.

      One of the reasons, in fact, maybe the primary reason, I became a
      Lutheran four years ago (I was raised in an Evangelical home) was I
      saw remarkably strong evidence for the real presence of Christ in the
      eucharist in the ante-Nicene period. This was compelling to me because
      I just can't swallow the pill that says that stalwarts like Ignatius,
      Irenaeus, and Justin Martyr dropped the ball on such a key issue. But
      sadly, I don't see this same smack-you-in-the-face evidence for the
      invocation of the saints that I see for the real presence.

      Your thoughts?


      Andrew.


      --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Orr"
      <xcjorr@...> wrote:
      >
      > *Most Holy Theotokos, save us.* *O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God,
      for the
      > sake of the prayers of Thy most pure Mother, of our holy and God-bearing
      > fathers and all the saints, have mercy on us. Amen.* O good Mother
      of the
      > Good King, most pure and blessed Theotokos Mary, do thou pour out
      the mercy
      > of thy Son and our God upon my passionate soul, and by thine
      intercessions
      > guide me unto good works, that I may pass the remaining time of my life
      > without blemish, and attain paradise through thee, O Virgin
      Theotokos, who
      > alone art pure and blessed.
      >
      > O Angel of Christ, my holy guardian and protector of my soul and body,
      > forgive me all wherein I have sinned this day, and deliver me from all
      > opposing evil of mine enemy, lest I anger my God by any sin. Pray
      for me, a
      > sinful and unworthy servant, that thou mayest show me forth worthy
      of the
      > kindness and mercy of the All-holy Trinity, and of the Mother of my Lord
      > Jesus Christ, and of all the saints. Amen.
      >
      > *To Thee, the Champion Leader, we thy servants dedicate a feast of
      victory
      > and of thanksgiving as ones rescued out of sufferings, O Theotokos;
      but as
      > thou art one with might which is invincible, from all dangers that
      can be do
      > thou deliver us, that we may cry to thee: Rejoice, thou Bride Unwedded!*
      >
      > *Most glorious, Ever-Virgin, Mother of Christ God, present our
      prayer to thy
      > Son and our God, that through thee He may save our souls.*
      >
      > *All my hope I place in thee, O Mother of God: keep me under thy
      protection.
      > *
      >
      > *O Virgin Theotokos, disdain not me a sinner, needing thy help and thy
      > protection, and have mercy on me, for my soul hath hoped in thee.*
      >
      > *My hope is the Father, my refuge is the Son, my protection is the Holy
      > Spirit: O Holy Trinity, glory to Thee.*
      >
      > *Meet it is in truth to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art ever
      blessed and
      > all-blameless, and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the
      Cherubim
      > and more glorious without compare than the Seraphim, who without
      corruption
      > gavest birth to God the Word, verily Theotokos, we magnify thee.*
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • tantuslabor
      Dear Andrew (what a wonderful name!), Let me take on just one of your questions--the all my hope I place in thee one. (At the end of Little Compline, we pray
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 1, 2007
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        Dear Andrew (what a wonderful name!),

        Let me take on just one of your questions--the "all my hope I place in
        thee" one. (At the end of Little Compline, we pray something similar
        to it to the Theotokos: "who *alone* art the hope of the hopeless, the
        help of those who do battle; the ready help of those who flee unto
        thee and the refuge of all Christians.")

        When I was a teenager, I was profoundly struck by an argument of the
        Jehovah's Witnesses. Christ says to the Father, in John 17: "That they
        may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast
        sent." Their argument went as follows: Christ himself calls the Father
        "the only true God;" Christ is not the Father; hence, Christ is not
        true God.

        The response to that argument teaches us something important about the
        Church's use of "alone," "only," and "all." It goes as follows. In 1
        John 5, St. John says of Christ, "He is the true God, and eternal
        life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols." Here the same
        author who recorded Jesus' statement that the Father is the "only"
        true God, says of Christ that he is the true God. That taught me that
        words like "only," "alone," and "all" have to be seen in their context
        to be understood rightly.

        When we say, to the Theotokos, "all my hope I place on thee," "who
        alone art the hope of the hopeless," etc. we do *not* mean "All my
        hope I place on thee, and none on God," or "who alone art the hope of
        the hopeless, not God." We mean, rather, "I place *no* hope on my own
        abilities, or those of my friends, or princes, but solely in the God
        who came to earth *through you*." We mean to take our hope and our
        trust away from our own wisdom and strength, and to learn to see true
        wisdom and strength in the "Let it be to me according to your word" of
        the Mother of God. For he whose cross is alone wisdom and strength,
        was born of her alone. And we do not take away honor and glory from
        the Holy Trinity, when we ascribe it to the means by which he
        worked/works our salvation--always, of course, as a means. So in the
        Akathist we say of the Theotokos, "*after God* do all of us for refuge
        flee unto thee"--not, of course, that there is an "after God," but
        that we most fully flee for refuge to him, when that flight includes
        the means by which he accomplishes our salvation.

        The Orthodox have a profoundly developed sense of respect and
        reverence for the means of grace. We kiss the cross, and icons--even
        the right hand of sinful priests, because that hand feeds us with the
        flesh and blood of God's Son.

        I hope this helps a little. Pray for me.

        The unworthy priest,

        Fr. Gregory Hogg

        --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew"
        <drew1095950@...> wrote:
        >
        > I'll be honest, some of these prayers do make me uneasy. I don't mind
        > so much asking the intercession of the saints, in fact the practice
        > seems to beautifully enhance our understanding of the communion of
        > saints, but saying things like 'all my hope I place in thee' and 'have
        > mercy on me' just rubs me the wrong way.
        >
        > Christopher, I appreciate your numerous patristic quotations on the
        > historical pedigree of the practice. But, for my money, there does
        > seem to be development over time - from acknowledging that the saints
        > pray for us, to asking their intercessions, to saying things like
        > 'from all dangers that can be do thou deliver us'. There just doesn't
        > seem to be any cold hard evidence of robust invocation in the 2nd
        > century, which makes me question whether it is truly of Apostolic
        origin.
        >
        > One of the reasons, in fact, maybe the primary reason, I became a
        > Lutheran four years ago (I was raised in an Evangelical home) was I
        > saw remarkably strong evidence for the real presence of Christ in the
        > eucharist in the ante-Nicene period. This was compelling to me because
        > I just can't swallow the pill that says that stalwarts like Ignatius,
        > Irenaeus, and Justin Martyr dropped the ball on such a key issue. But
        > sadly, I don't see this same smack-you-in-the-face evidence for the
        > invocation of the saints that I see for the real presence.
        >
        > Your thoughts?
        >
        >
        > Andrew.
        >
        >
        > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Orr"
        > <xcjorr@> wrote:
        > >
        > > *Most Holy Theotokos, save us.* *O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God,
        > for the
        > > sake of the prayers of Thy most pure Mother, of our holy and
        God-bearing
        > > fathers and all the saints, have mercy on us. Amen.* O good Mother
        > of the
        > > Good King, most pure and blessed Theotokos Mary, do thou pour out
        > the mercy
        > > of thy Son and our God upon my passionate soul, and by thine
        > intercessions
        > > guide me unto good works, that I may pass the remaining time of my
        life
        > > without blemish, and attain paradise through thee, O Virgin
        > Theotokos, who
        > > alone art pure and blessed.
        > >
        > > O Angel of Christ, my holy guardian and protector of my soul and body,
        > > forgive me all wherein I have sinned this day, and deliver me from all
        > > opposing evil of mine enemy, lest I anger my God by any sin. Pray
        > for me, a
        > > sinful and unworthy servant, that thou mayest show me forth worthy
        > of the
        > > kindness and mercy of the All-holy Trinity, and of the Mother of
        my Lord
        > > Jesus Christ, and of all the saints. Amen.
        > >
        > > *To Thee, the Champion Leader, we thy servants dedicate a feast of
        > victory
        > > and of thanksgiving as ones rescued out of sufferings, O Theotokos;
        > but as
        > > thou art one with might which is invincible, from all dangers that
        > can be do
        > > thou deliver us, that we may cry to thee: Rejoice, thou Bride
        Unwedded!*
        > >
        > > *Most glorious, Ever-Virgin, Mother of Christ God, present our
        > prayer to thy
        > > Son and our God, that through thee He may save our souls.*
        > >
        > > *All my hope I place in thee, O Mother of God: keep me under thy
        > protection.
        > > *
        > >
        > > *O Virgin Theotokos, disdain not me a sinner, needing thy help and thy
        > > protection, and have mercy on me, for my soul hath hoped in thee.*
        > >
        > > *My hope is the Father, my refuge is the Son, my protection is the
        Holy
        > > Spirit: O Holy Trinity, glory to Thee.*
        > >
        > > *Meet it is in truth to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art ever
        > blessed and
        > > all-blameless, and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the
        > Cherubim
        > > and more glorious without compare than the Seraphim, who without
        > corruption
        > > gavest birth to God the Word, verily Theotokos, we magnify thee.*
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
      • Jeremy
        a couple more insights from First Fruits of Prayer, which I just read this morning: The first canticle closes with petitions that ask the saints to pray for
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 3, 2007
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          a couple more insights from First Fruits of Prayer, which I just read
          this morning:
          "The first canticle closes with petitions that ask the saints to pray
          for us [. . .]
          "This petition asks St. Mary to give us "the light of grace," but it
          should not be understood as saying that St. Mary is in charge of
          managing God's grace. It is a shorthand way of asking her to pray that
          we be given God's grace."
          p. 12

          "As Canticle Tree comes to an end, [. . .] we encounter a number of
          petitions to saints that they will pray for us. But this one might seem
          to go too far; can St. Mary of Egypt [not the Theotokos], who is after
          all human just like us, "keep us safe"? No, the implication is not that
          she has superpowers, but that her will is so united with the will of God
          that her prayers will be effective. This union is the goal for all of
          us, and like her, it will come to us through the path of repentance."
          p. 50
          Does that help a little?

          It definitely takes some getting used to. But after a while, the
          distinctions become very clear in heart and mind. Getting a better
          grasp of the Orthodox understanding of grace as energia and dunamis
          helps a LOT.

          John




          --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "tantuslabor"
          <stoic1348@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Andrew (what a wonderful name!),
          >
          > Let me take on just one of your questions--the "all my hope I place in
          > thee" one. (At the end of Little Compline, we pray something similar
          > to it to the Theotokos: "who *alone* art the hope of the hopeless, the
          > help of those who do battle; the ready help of those who flee unto
          > thee and the refuge of all Christians.")
          >
          > When I was a teenager, I was profoundly struck by an argument of the
          > Jehovah's Witnesses. Christ says to the Father, in John 17: "That they
          > may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast
          > sent." Their argument went as follows: Christ himself calls the Father
          > "the only true God;" Christ is not the Father; hence, Christ is not
          > true God.
          >
          > The response to that argument teaches us something important about the
          > Church's use of "alone," "only," and "all." It goes as follows. In 1
          > John 5, St. John says of Christ, "He is the true God, and eternal
          > life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols." Here the same
          > author who recorded Jesus' statement that the Father is the "only"
          > true God, says of Christ that he is the true God. That taught me that
          > words like "only," "alone," and "all" have to be seen in their context
          > to be understood rightly.
          >
          > When we say, to the Theotokos, "all my hope I place on thee," "who
          > alone art the hope of the hopeless," etc. we do *not* mean "All my
          > hope I place on thee, and none on God," or "who alone art the hope of
          > the hopeless, not God." We mean, rather, "I place *no* hope on my own
          > abilities, or those of my friends, or princes, but solely in the God
          > who came to earth *through you*." We mean to take our hope and our
          > trust away from our own wisdom and strength, and to learn to see true
          > wisdom and strength in the "Let it be to me according to your word" of
          > the Mother of God. For he whose cross is alone wisdom and strength,
          > was born of her alone. And we do not take away honor and glory from
          > the Holy Trinity, when we ascribe it to the means by which he
          > worked/works our salvation--always, of course, as a means. So in the
          > Akathist we say of the Theotokos, "*after God* do all of us for refuge
          > flee unto thee"--not, of course, that there is an "after God," but
          > that we most fully flee for refuge to him, when that flight includes
          > the means by which he accomplishes our salvation.
          >
          > The Orthodox have a profoundly developed sense of respect and
          > reverence for the means of grace. We kiss the cross, and icons--even
          > the right hand of sinful priests, because that hand feeds us with the
          > flesh and blood of God's Son.
          >
          > I hope this helps a little. Pray for me.
          >
          > The unworthy priest,
          >
          > Fr. Gregory Hogg
          >
          > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew"
          > drew1095950@ wrote:
          > >
          > > I'll be honest, some of these prayers do make me uneasy. I don't
          mind
          > > so much asking the intercession of the saints, in fact the practice
          > > seems to beautifully enhance our understanding of the communion of
          > > saints, but saying things like 'all my hope I place in thee' and
          'have
          > > mercy on me' just rubs me the wrong way.
          > >
          > > Christopher, I appreciate your numerous patristic quotations on the
          > > historical pedigree of the practice. But, for my money, there does
          > > seem to be development over time - from acknowledging that the
          saints
          > > pray for us, to asking their intercessions, to saying things like
          > > 'from all dangers that can be do thou deliver us'. There just
          doesn't
          > > seem to be any cold hard evidence of robust invocation in the 2nd
          > > century, which makes me question whether it is truly of Apostolic
          > origin.
          > >
          > > One of the reasons, in fact, maybe the primary reason, I became a
          > > Lutheran four years ago (I was raised in an Evangelical home) was I
          > > saw remarkably strong evidence for the real presence of Christ in
          the
          > > eucharist in the ante-Nicene period. This was compelling to me
          because
          > > I just can't swallow the pill that says that stalwarts like
          Ignatius,
          > > Irenaeus, and Justin Martyr dropped the ball on such a key issue.
          But
          > > sadly, I don't see this same smack-you-in-the-face evidence for the
          > > invocation of the saints that I see for the real presence.
          > >
          > > Your thoughts?
          > >
          > >
          > > Andrew.
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Orr"
          > > <xcjorr@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > *Most Holy Theotokos, save us.* *O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God,
          > > for the
          > > > sake of the prayers of Thy most pure Mother, of our holy and
          > God-bearing
          > > > fathers and all the saints, have mercy on us. Amen.* O good Mother
          > > of the
          > > > Good King, most pure and blessed Theotokos Mary, do thou pour out
          > > the mercy
          > > > of thy Son and our God upon my passionate soul, and by thine
          > > intercessions
          > > > guide me unto good works, that I may pass the remaining time of my
          > life
          > > > without blemish, and attain paradise through thee, O Virgin
          > > Theotokos, who
          > > > alone art pure and blessed.
          > > >
          > > > O Angel of Christ, my holy guardian and protector of my soul and
          body,
          > > > forgive me all wherein I have sinned this day, and deliver me from
          all
          > > > opposing evil of mine enemy, lest I anger my God by any sin. Pray
          > > for me, a
          > > > sinful and unworthy servant, that thou mayest show me forth worthy
          > > of the
          > > > kindness and mercy of the All-holy Trinity, and of the Mother of
          > my Lord
          > > > Jesus Christ, and of all the saints. Amen.
          > > >
          > > > *To Thee, the Champion Leader, we thy servants dedicate a feast of
          > > victory
          > > > and of thanksgiving as ones rescued out of sufferings, O
          Theotokos;
          > > but as
          > > > thou art one with might which is invincible, from all dangers that
          > > can be do
          > > > thou deliver us, that we may cry to thee: Rejoice, thou Bride
          > Unwedded!*
          > > >
          > > > *Most glorious, Ever-Virgin, Mother of Christ God, present our
          > > prayer to thy
          > > > Son and our God, that through thee He may save our souls.*
          > > >
          > > > *All my hope I place in thee, O Mother of God: keep me under thy
          > > protection.
          > > > *
          > > >
          > > > *O Virgin Theotokos, disdain not me a sinner, needing thy help and
          thy
          > > > protection, and have mercy on me, for my soul hath hoped in thee.*
          > > >
          > > > *My hope is the Father, my refuge is the Son, my protection is the
          > Holy
          > > > Spirit: O Holy Trinity, glory to Thee.*
          > > >
          > > > *Meet it is in truth to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art ever
          > > blessed and
          > > > all-blameless, and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the
          > > Cherubim
          > > > and more glorious without compare than the Seraphim, who without
          > > corruption
          > > > gavest birth to God the Word, verily Theotokos, we magnify thee.*
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • michael144000
          Tell us more about energeia and dunamis. ... read ... pray ... it ... that ... might seem ... after ... that ... of God ... all of ... repentance. ... place
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 3, 2007
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            Tell us more about energeia and dunamis.

            --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy"
            <AdonaiUplifts@...> wrote:
            >
            > a couple more insights from First Fruits of Prayer, which I just
            read
            > this morning:
            > "The first canticle closes with petitions that ask the saints to
            pray
            > for us [. . .]
            > "This petition asks St. Mary to give us "the light of grace," but
            it
            > should not be understood as saying that St. Mary is in charge of
            > managing God's grace. It is a shorthand way of asking her to pray
            that
            > we be given God's grace."
            > p. 12
            >
            > "As Canticle Tree comes to an end, [. . .] we encounter a number of
            > petitions to saints that they will pray for us. But this one
            might seem
            > to go too far; can St. Mary of Egypt [not the Theotokos], who is
            after
            > all human just like us, "keep us safe"? No, the implication is not
            that
            > she has superpowers, but that her will is so united with the will
            of God
            > that her prayers will be effective. This union is the goal for
            all of
            > us, and like her, it will come to us through the path of
            repentance."
            > p. 50
            > Does that help a little?
            >
            > It definitely takes some getting used to. But after a while, the
            > distinctions become very clear in heart and mind. Getting a better
            > grasp of the Orthodox understanding of grace as energia and dunamis
            > helps a LOT.
            >
            > John
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "tantuslabor"
            > <stoic1348@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Dear Andrew (what a wonderful name!),
            > >
            > > Let me take on just one of your questions--the "all my hope I
            place in
            > > thee" one. (At the end of Little Compline, we pray something
            similar
            > > to it to the Theotokos: "who *alone* art the hope of the
            hopeless, the
            > > help of those who do battle; the ready help of those who flee
            unto
            > > thee and the refuge of all Christians.")
            > >
            > > When I was a teenager, I was profoundly struck by an argument of
            the
            > > Jehovah's Witnesses. Christ says to the Father, in John
            17: "That they
            > > may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast
            > > sent." Their argument went as follows: Christ himself calls the
            Father
            > > "the only true God;" Christ is not the Father; hence, Christ is
            not
            > > true God.
            > >
            > > The response to that argument teaches us something important
            about the
            > > Church's use of "alone," "only," and "all." It goes as follows.
            In 1
            > > John 5, St. John says of Christ, "He is the true God, and eternal
            > > life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols." Here the same
            > > author who recorded Jesus' statement that the Father is
            the "only"
            > > true God, says of Christ that he is the true God. That taught me
            that
            > > words like "only," "alone," and "all" have to be seen in their
            context
            > > to be understood rightly.
            > >
            > > When we say, to the Theotokos, "all my hope I place on
            thee," "who
            > > alone art the hope of the hopeless," etc. we do *not* mean "All
            my
            > > hope I place on thee, and none on God," or "who alone art the
            hope of
            > > the hopeless, not God." We mean, rather, "I place *no* hope on
            my own
            > > abilities, or those of my friends, or princes, but solely in the
            God
            > > who came to earth *through you*." We mean to take our hope and
            our
            > > trust away from our own wisdom and strength, and to learn to see
            true
            > > wisdom and strength in the "Let it be to me according to your
            word" of
            > > the Mother of God. For he whose cross is alone wisdom and
            strength,
            > > was born of her alone. And we do not take away honor and glory
            from
            > > the Holy Trinity, when we ascribe it to the means by which he
            > > worked/works our salvation--always, of course, as a means. So in
            the
            > > Akathist we say of the Theotokos, "*after God* do all of us for
            refuge
            > > flee unto thee"--not, of course, that there is an "after God,"
            but
            > > that we most fully flee for refuge to him, when that flight
            includes
            > > the means by which he accomplishes our salvation.
            > >
            > > The Orthodox have a profoundly developed sense of respect and
            > > reverence for the means of grace. We kiss the cross, and icons--
            even
            > > the right hand of sinful priests, because that hand feeds us
            with the
            > > flesh and blood of God's Son.
            > >
            > > I hope this helps a little. Pray for me.
            > >
            > > The unworthy priest,
            > >
            > > Fr. Gregory Hogg
            > >
            > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew"
            > > drew1095950@ wrote:
            > > >
            > > > I'll be honest, some of these prayers do make me uneasy. I
            don't
            > mind
            > > > so much asking the intercession of the saints, in fact the
            practice
            > > > seems to beautifully enhance our understanding of the
            communion of
            > > > saints, but saying things like 'all my hope I place in thee'
            and
            > 'have
            > > > mercy on me' just rubs me the wrong way.
            > > >
            > > > Christopher, I appreciate your numerous patristic quotations
            on the
            > > > historical pedigree of the practice. But, for my money, there
            does
            > > > seem to be development over time - from acknowledging that the
            > saints
            > > > pray for us, to asking their intercessions, to saying things
            like
            > > > 'from all dangers that can be do thou deliver us'. There just
            > doesn't
            > > > seem to be any cold hard evidence of robust invocation in the
            2nd
            > > > century, which makes me question whether it is truly of
            Apostolic
            > > origin.
            > > >
            > > > One of the reasons, in fact, maybe the primary reason, I
            became a
            > > > Lutheran four years ago (I was raised in an Evangelical home)
            was I
            > > > saw remarkably strong evidence for the real presence of Christ
            in
            > the
            > > > eucharist in the ante-Nicene period. This was compelling to me
            > because
            > > > I just can't swallow the pill that says that stalwarts like
            > Ignatius,
            > > > Irenaeus, and Justin Martyr dropped the ball on such a key
            issue.
            > But
            > > > sadly, I don't see this same smack-you-in-the-face evidence
            for the
            > > > invocation of the saints that I see for the real presence.
            > > >
            > > > Your thoughts?
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Andrew.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Orr"
            > > > <xcjorr@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > *Most Holy Theotokos, save us.* *O Lord Jesus Christ, Son
            of God,
            > > > for the
            > > > > sake of the prayers of Thy most pure Mother, of our holy and
            > > God-bearing
            > > > > fathers and all the saints, have mercy on us. Amen.* O good
            Mother
            > > > of the
            > > > > Good King, most pure and blessed Theotokos Mary, do thou
            pour out
            > > > the mercy
            > > > > of thy Son and our God upon my passionate soul, and by thine
            > > > intercessions
            > > > > guide me unto good works, that I may pass the remaining time
            of my
            > > life
            > > > > without blemish, and attain paradise through thee, O Virgin
            > > > Theotokos, who
            > > > > alone art pure and blessed.
            > > > >
            > > > > O Angel of Christ, my holy guardian and protector of my soul
            and
            > body,
            > > > > forgive me all wherein I have sinned this day, and deliver
            me from
            > all
            > > > > opposing evil of mine enemy, lest I anger my God by any sin.
            Pray
            > > > for me, a
            > > > > sinful and unworthy servant, that thou mayest show me forth
            worthy
            > > > of the
            > > > > kindness and mercy of the All-holy Trinity, and of the
            Mother of
            > > my Lord
            > > > > Jesus Christ, and of all the saints. Amen.
            > > > >
            > > > > *To Thee, the Champion Leader, we thy servants dedicate a
            feast of
            > > > victory
            > > > > and of thanksgiving as ones rescued out of sufferings, O
            > Theotokos;
            > > > but as
            > > > > thou art one with might which is invincible, from all
            dangers that
            > > > can be do
            > > > > thou deliver us, that we may cry to thee: Rejoice, thou Bride
            > > Unwedded!*
            > > > >
            > > > > *Most glorious, Ever-Virgin, Mother of Christ God, present
            our
            > > > prayer to thy
            > > > > Son and our God, that through thee He may save our souls.*
            > > > >
            > > > > *All my hope I place in thee, O Mother of God: keep me under
            thy
            > > > protection.
            > > > > *
            > > > >
            > > > > *O Virgin Theotokos, disdain not me a sinner, needing thy
            help and
            > thy
            > > > > protection, and have mercy on me, for my soul hath hoped in
            thee.*
            > > > >
            > > > > *My hope is the Father, my refuge is the Son, my protection
            is the
            > > Holy
            > > > > Spirit: O Holy Trinity, glory to Thee.*
            > > > >
            > > > > *Meet it is in truth to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art ever
            > > > blessed and
            > > > > all-blameless, and the Mother of our God. More honorable
            than the
            > > > Cherubim
            > > > > and more glorious without compare than the Seraphim, who
            without
            > > > corruption
            > > > > gavest birth to God the Word, verily Theotokos, we magnify
            thee.*
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Jeremy
            Upon beginning a response to try and explain energeia and dunamis, I was humbled by my realization of my remedial understanding of them myself. I ll keep
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 4, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Upon beginning a response to try and explain energeia and dunamis, I
              was humbled by my realization of my remedial understanding of them myself.
              I'll keep working on the response, but it might take several days.
              Perhaps someone who is a little more seasoned would like to help me on
              this one?


              John


              --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "michael144000"
              <grailpriest@...> wrote:
              >
              > Tell us more about energeia and dunamis.
              >
              > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy"
              > <AdonaiUplifts@> wrote:
              > >
              > > a couple more insights from First Fruits of Prayer, which I just
              > read
              > > this morning:
              > > "The first canticle closes with petitions that ask the saints to
              > pray
              > > for us [. . .]
              > > "This petition asks St. Mary to give us "the light of grace," but
              > it
              > > should not be understood as saying that St. Mary is in charge of
              > > managing God's grace. It is a shorthand way of asking her to pray
              > that
              > > we be given God's grace."
              > > p. 12
              > >
              > > "As Canticle Tree comes to an end, [. . .] we encounter a number of
              > > petitions to saints that they will pray for us. But this one
              > might seem
              > > to go too far; can St. Mary of Egypt [not the Theotokos], who is
              > after
              > > all human just like us, "keep us safe"? No, the implication is not
              > that
              > > she has superpowers, but that her will is so united with the will
              > of God
              > > that her prayers will be effective. This union is the goal for
              > all of
              > > us, and like her, it will come to us through the path of
              > repentance."
              > > p. 50
              > > Does that help a little?
              > >
              > > It definitely takes some getting used to. But after a while, the
              > > distinctions become very clear in heart and mind. Getting a better
              > > grasp of the Orthodox understanding of grace as energia and dunamis
              > > helps a LOT.
              > >
              > > John
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "tantuslabor"
              > > <stoic1348@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Dear Andrew (what a wonderful name!),
              > > >
              > > > Let me take on just one of your questions--the "all my hope I
              > place in
              > > > thee" one. (At the end of Little Compline, we pray something
              > similar
              > > > to it to the Theotokos: "who *alone* art the hope of the
              > hopeless, the
              > > > help of those who do battle; the ready help of those who flee
              > unto
              > > > thee and the refuge of all Christians.")
              > > >
              > > > When I was a teenager, I was profoundly struck by an argument of
              > the
              > > > Jehovah's Witnesses. Christ says to the Father, in John
              > 17: "That they
              > > > may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast
              > > > sent." Their argument went as follows: Christ himself calls the
              > Father
              > > > "the only true God;" Christ is not the Father; hence, Christ is
              > not
              > > > true God.
              > > >
              > > > The response to that argument teaches us something important
              > about the
              > > > Church's use of "alone," "only," and "all." It goes as follows.
              > In 1
              > > > John 5, St. John says of Christ, "He is the true God, and eternal
              > > > life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols." Here the same
              > > > author who recorded Jesus' statement that the Father is
              > the "only"
              > > > true God, says of Christ that he is the true God. That taught me
              > that
              > > > words like "only," "alone," and "all" have to be seen in their
              > context
              > > > to be understood rightly.
              > > >
              > > > When we say, to the Theotokos, "all my hope I place on
              > thee," "who
              > > > alone art the hope of the hopeless," etc. we do *not* mean "All
              > my
              > > > hope I place on thee, and none on God," or "who alone art the
              > hope of
              > > > the hopeless, not God." We mean, rather, "I place *no* hope on
              > my own
              > > > abilities, or those of my friends, or princes, but solely in the
              > God
              > > > who came to earth *through you*." We mean to take our hope and
              > our
              > > > trust away from our own wisdom and strength, and to learn to see
              > true
              > > > wisdom and strength in the "Let it be to me according to your
              > word" of
              > > > the Mother of God. For he whose cross is alone wisdom and
              > strength,
              > > > was born of her alone. And we do not take away honor and glory
              > from
              > > > the Holy Trinity, when we ascribe it to the means by which he
              > > > worked/works our salvation--always, of course, as a means. So in
              > the
              > > > Akathist we say of the Theotokos, "*after God* do all of us for
              > refuge
              > > > flee unto thee"--not, of course, that there is an "after God,"
              > but
              > > > that we most fully flee for refuge to him, when that flight
              > includes
              > > > the means by which he accomplishes our salvation.
              > > >
              > > > The Orthodox have a profoundly developed sense of respect and
              > > > reverence for the means of grace. We kiss the cross, and icons--
              > even
              > > > the right hand of sinful priests, because that hand feeds us
              > with the
              > > > flesh and blood of God's Son.
              > > >
              > > > I hope this helps a little. Pray for me.
              > > >
              > > > The unworthy priest,
              > > >
              > > > Fr. Gregory Hogg
              > > >
              > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew"
              > > > drew1095950@ wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > I'll be honest, some of these prayers do make me uneasy. I
              > don't
              > > mind
              > > > > so much asking the intercession of the saints, in fact the
              > practice
              > > > > seems to beautifully enhance our understanding of the
              > communion of
              > > > > saints, but saying things like 'all my hope I place in thee'
              > and
              > > 'have
              > > > > mercy on me' just rubs me the wrong way.
              > > > >
              > > > > Christopher, I appreciate your numerous patristic quotations
              > on the
              > > > > historical pedigree of the practice. But, for my money, there
              > does
              > > > > seem to be development over time - from acknowledging that the
              > > saints
              > > > > pray for us, to asking their intercessions, to saying things
              > like
              > > > > 'from all dangers that can be do thou deliver us'. There just
              > > doesn't
              > > > > seem to be any cold hard evidence of robust invocation in the
              > 2nd
              > > > > century, which makes me question whether it is truly of
              > Apostolic
              > > > origin.
              > > > >
              > > > > One of the reasons, in fact, maybe the primary reason, I
              > became a
              > > > > Lutheran four years ago (I was raised in an Evangelical home)
              > was I
              > > > > saw remarkably strong evidence for the real presence of Christ
              > in
              > > the
              > > > > eucharist in the ante-Nicene period. This was compelling to me
              > > because
              > > > > I just can't swallow the pill that says that stalwarts like
              > > Ignatius,
              > > > > Irenaeus, and Justin Martyr dropped the ball on such a key
              > issue.
              > > But
              > > > > sadly, I don't see this same smack-you-in-the-face evidence
              > for the
              > > > > invocation of the saints that I see for the real presence.
              > > > >
              > > > > Your thoughts?
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Andrew.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Orr"
              > > > > <xcjorr@> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > *Most Holy Theotokos, save us.* *O Lord Jesus Christ, Son
              > of God,
              > > > > for the
              > > > > > sake of the prayers of Thy most pure Mother, of our holy and
              > > > God-bearing
              > > > > > fathers and all the saints, have mercy on us. Amen.* O good
              > Mother
              > > > > of the
              > > > > > Good King, most pure and blessed Theotokos Mary, do thou
              > pour out
              > > > > the mercy
              > > > > > of thy Son and our God upon my passionate soul, and by thine
              > > > > intercessions
              > > > > > guide me unto good works, that I may pass the remaining time
              > of my
              > > > life
              > > > > > without blemish, and attain paradise through thee, O Virgin
              > > > > Theotokos, who
              > > > > > alone art pure and blessed.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > O Angel of Christ, my holy guardian and protector of my soul
              > and
              > > body,
              > > > > > forgive me all wherein I have sinned this day, and deliver
              > me from
              > > all
              > > > > > opposing evil of mine enemy, lest I anger my God by any sin.
              > Pray
              > > > > for me, a
              > > > > > sinful and unworthy servant, that thou mayest show me forth
              > worthy
              > > > > of the
              > > > > > kindness and mercy of the All-holy Trinity, and of the
              > Mother of
              > > > my Lord
              > > > > > Jesus Christ, and of all the saints. Amen.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > *To Thee, the Champion Leader, we thy servants dedicate a
              > feast of
              > > > > victory
              > > > > > and of thanksgiving as ones rescued out of sufferings, O
              > > Theotokos;
              > > > > but as
              > > > > > thou art one with might which is invincible, from all
              > dangers that
              > > > > can be do
              > > > > > thou deliver us, that we may cry to thee: Rejoice, thou Bride
              > > > Unwedded!*
              > > > > >
              > > > > > *Most glorious, Ever-Virgin, Mother of Christ God, present
              > our
              > > > > prayer to thy
              > > > > > Son and our God, that through thee He may save our souls.*
              > > > > >
              > > > > > *All my hope I place in thee, O Mother of God: keep me under
              > thy
              > > > > protection.
              > > > > > *
              > > > > >
              > > > > > *O Virgin Theotokos, disdain not me a sinner, needing thy
              > help and
              > > thy
              > > > > > protection, and have mercy on me, for my soul hath hoped in
              > thee.*
              > > > > >
              > > > > > *My hope is the Father, my refuge is the Son, my protection
              > is the
              > > > Holy
              > > > > > Spirit: O Holy Trinity, glory to Thee.*
              > > > > >
              > > > > > *Meet it is in truth to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art ever
              > > > > blessed and
              > > > > > all-blameless, and the Mother of our God. More honorable
              > than the
              > > > > Cherubim
              > > > > > and more glorious without compare than the Seraphim, who
              > without
              > > > > corruption
              > > > > > gavest birth to God the Word, verily Theotokos, we magnify
              > thee.*
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
            • Christopher Orr
              God s energies are His direct presence, not just his goodwill toward us. God s Energy is the Holy Spirit Himself, Who is everywhere present and filleth all
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 4, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                God's energies are His direct presence, not just his 'goodwill' toward us.
                God's Energy is the Holy Spirit Himself, "Who is everywhere present and
                filleth all things".

                Christopher


                On 3/4/07, Jeremy <AdonaiUplifts@...> wrote:
                >
                > Upon beginning a response to try and explain energeia and dunamis, I
                > was humbled by my realization of my remedial understanding of them myself.
                > I'll keep working on the response, but it might take several days.
                > Perhaps someone who is a little more seasoned would like to help me on
                > this one?
                >
                > John
                >
                > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > "michael144000"
                >
                > <grailpriest@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Tell us more about energeia and dunamis.
                > >
                > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > "Jeremy"
                > > <AdonaiUplifts@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > a couple more insights from First Fruits of Prayer, which I just
                > > read
                > > > this morning:
                > > > "The first canticle closes with petitions that ask the saints to
                > > pray
                > > > for us [. . .]
                > > > "This petition asks St. Mary to give us "the light of grace," but
                > > it
                > > > should not be understood as saying that St. Mary is in charge of
                > > > managing God's grace. It is a shorthand way of asking her to pray
                > > that
                > > > we be given God's grace."
                > > > p. 12
                > > >
                > > > "As Canticle Tree comes to an end, [. . .] we encounter a number of
                > > > petitions to saints that they will pray for us. But this one
                > > might seem
                > > > to go too far; can St. Mary of Egypt [not the Theotokos], who is
                > > after
                > > > all human just like us, "keep us safe"? No, the implication is not
                > > that
                > > > she has superpowers, but that her will is so united with the will
                > > of God
                > > > that her prayers will be effective. This union is the goal for
                > > all of
                > > > us, and like her, it will come to us through the path of
                > > repentance."
                > > > p. 50
                > > > Does that help a little?
                > > >
                > > > It definitely takes some getting used to. But after a while, the
                > > > distinctions become very clear in heart and mind. Getting a better
                > > > grasp of the Orthodox understanding of grace as energia and dunamis
                > > > helps a LOT.
                > > >
                > > > John
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > "tantuslabor"
                > > > <stoic1348@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Dear Andrew (what a wonderful name!),
                > > > >
                > > > > Let me take on just one of your questions--the "all my hope I
                > > place in
                > > > > thee" one. (At the end of Little Compline, we pray something
                > > similar
                > > > > to it to the Theotokos: "who *alone* art the hope of the
                > > hopeless, the
                > > > > help of those who do battle; the ready help of those who flee
                > > unto
                > > > > thee and the refuge of all Christians.")
                > > > >
                > > > > When I was a teenager, I was profoundly struck by an argument of
                > > the
                > > > > Jehovah's Witnesses. Christ says to the Father, in John
                > > 17: "That they
                > > > > may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast
                > > > > sent." Their argument went as follows: Christ himself calls the
                > > Father
                > > > > "the only true God;" Christ is not the Father; hence, Christ is
                > > not
                > > > > true God.
                > > > >
                > > > > The response to that argument teaches us something important
                > > about the
                > > > > Church's use of "alone," "only," and "all." It goes as follows.
                > > In 1
                > > > > John 5, St. John says of Christ, "He is the true God, and eternal
                > > > > life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols." Here the same
                > > > > author who recorded Jesus' statement that the Father is
                > > the "only"
                > > > > true God, says of Christ that he is the true God. That taught me
                > > that
                > > > > words like "only," "alone," and "all" have to be seen in their
                > > context
                > > > > to be understood rightly.
                > > > >
                > > > > When we say, to the Theotokos, "all my hope I place on
                > > thee," "who
                > > > > alone art the hope of the hopeless," etc. we do *not* mean "All
                > > my
                > > > > hope I place on thee, and none on God," or "who alone art the
                > > hope of
                > > > > the hopeless, not God." We mean, rather, "I place *no* hope on
                > > my own
                > > > > abilities, or those of my friends, or princes, but solely in the
                > > God
                > > > > who came to earth *through you*." We mean to take our hope and
                > > our
                > > > > trust away from our own wisdom and strength, and to learn to see
                > > true
                > > > > wisdom and strength in the "Let it be to me according to your
                > > word" of
                > > > > the Mother of God. For he whose cross is alone wisdom and
                > > strength,
                > > > > was born of her alone. And we do not take away honor and glory
                > > from
                > > > > the Holy Trinity, when we ascribe it to the means by which he
                > > > > worked/works our salvation--always, of course, as a means. So in
                > > the
                > > > > Akathist we say of the Theotokos, "*after God* do all of us for
                > > refuge
                > > > > flee unto thee"--not, of course, that there is an "after God,"
                > > but
                > > > > that we most fully flee for refuge to him, when that flight
                > > includes
                > > > > the means by which he accomplishes our salvation.
                > > > >
                > > > > The Orthodox have a profoundly developed sense of respect and
                > > > > reverence for the means of grace. We kiss the cross, and icons--
                > > even
                > > > > the right hand of sinful priests, because that hand feeds us
                > > with the
                > > > > flesh and blood of God's Son.
                > > > >
                > > > > I hope this helps a little. Pray for me.
                > > > >
                > > > > The unworthy priest,
                > > > >
                > > > > Fr. Gregory Hogg
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > "Andrew"
                > > > > drew1095950@ wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I'll be honest, some of these prayers do make me uneasy. I
                > > don't
                > > > mind
                > > > > > so much asking the intercession of the saints, in fact the
                > > practice
                > > > > > seems to beautifully enhance our understanding of the
                > > communion of
                > > > > > saints, but saying things like 'all my hope I place in thee'
                > > and
                > > > 'have
                > > > > > mercy on me' just rubs me the wrong way.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Christopher, I appreciate your numerous patristic quotations
                > > on the
                > > > > > historical pedigree of the practice. But, for my money, there
                > > does
                > > > > > seem to be development over time - from acknowledging that the
                > > > saints
                > > > > > pray for us, to asking their intercessions, to saying things
                > > like
                > > > > > 'from all dangers that can be do thou deliver us'. There just
                > > > doesn't
                > > > > > seem to be any cold hard evidence of robust invocation in the
                > > 2nd
                > > > > > century, which makes me question whether it is truly of
                > > Apostolic
                > > > > origin.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > One of the reasons, in fact, maybe the primary reason, I
                > > became a
                > > > > > Lutheran four years ago (I was raised in an Evangelical home)
                > > was I
                > > > > > saw remarkably strong evidence for the real presence of Christ
                > > in
                > > > the
                > > > > > eucharist in the ante-Nicene period. This was compelling to me
                > > > because
                > > > > > I just can't swallow the pill that says that stalwarts like
                > > > Ignatius,
                > > > > > Irenaeus, and Justin Martyr dropped the ball on such a key
                > > issue.
                > > > But
                > > > > > sadly, I don't see this same smack-you-in-the-face evidence
                > > for the
                > > > > > invocation of the saints that I see for the real presence.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Your thoughts?
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Andrew.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > "Christopher Orr"
                > > > > > <xcjorr@> wrote:
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > *Most Holy Theotokos, save us.* *O Lord Jesus Christ, Son
                > > of God,
                > > > > > for the
                > > > > > > sake of the prayers of Thy most pure Mother, of our holy and
                > > > > God-bearing
                > > > > > > fathers and all the saints, have mercy on us. Amen.* O good
                > > Mother
                > > > > > of the
                > > > > > > Good King, most pure and blessed Theotokos Mary, do thou
                > > pour out
                > > > > > the mercy
                > > > > > > of thy Son and our God upon my passionate soul, and by thine
                > > > > > intercessions
                > > > > > > guide me unto good works, that I may pass the remaining time
                > > of my
                > > > > life
                > > > > > > without blemish, and attain paradise through thee, O Virgin
                > > > > > Theotokos, who
                > > > > > > alone art pure and blessed.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > O Angel of Christ, my holy guardian and protector of my soul
                > > and
                > > > body,
                > > > > > > forgive me all wherein I have sinned this day, and deliver
                > > me from
                > > > all
                > > > > > > opposing evil of mine enemy, lest I anger my God by any sin.
                > > Pray
                > > > > > for me, a
                > > > > > > sinful and unworthy servant, that thou mayest show me forth
                > > worthy
                > > > > > of the
                > > > > > > kindness and mercy of the All-holy Trinity, and of the
                > > Mother of
                > > > > my Lord
                > > > > > > Jesus Christ, and of all the saints. Amen.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > *To Thee, the Champion Leader, we thy servants dedicate a
                > > feast of
                > > > > > victory
                > > > > > > and of thanksgiving as ones rescued out of sufferings, O
                > > > Theotokos;
                > > > > > but as
                > > > > > > thou art one with might which is invincible, from all
                > > dangers that
                > > > > > can be do
                > > > > > > thou deliver us, that we may cry to thee: Rejoice, thou Bride
                > > > > Unwedded!*
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > *Most glorious, Ever-Virgin, Mother of Christ God, present
                > > our
                > > > > > prayer to thy
                > > > > > > Son and our God, that through thee He may save our souls.*
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > *All my hope I place in thee, O Mother of God: keep me under
                > > thy
                > > > > > protection.
                > > > > > > *
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > *O Virgin Theotokos, disdain not me a sinner, needing thy
                > > help and
                > > > thy
                > > > > > > protection, and have mercy on me, for my soul hath hoped in
                > > thee.*
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > *My hope is the Father, my refuge is the Son, my protection
                > > is the
                > > > > Holy
                > > > > > > Spirit: O Holy Trinity, glory to Thee.*
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > *Meet it is in truth to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art ever
                > > > > > blessed and
                > > > > > > all-blameless, and the Mother of our God. More honorable
                > > than the
                > > > > > Cherubim
                > > > > > > and more glorious without compare than the Seraphim, who
                > > without
                > > > > > corruption
                > > > > > > gavest birth to God the Word, verily Theotokos, we magnify
                > > thee.*
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jeremy
                Right. Thanks, Christopher. Sometimes I forget it really is that simple. John ... toward us. ... myself. ...
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 5, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Right.
                  Thanks, Christopher.
                  Sometimes I forget it really is that simple.


                  John


                  --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Orr"
                  <xcjorr@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > God's energies are His direct presence, not just his 'goodwill'
                  toward us.
                  > God's Energy is the Holy Spirit Himself, "Who is everywhere present and
                  > filleth all things".
                  >
                  > Christopher
                  >
                  >
                  > On 3/4/07, Jeremy <AdonaiUplifts@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Upon beginning a response to try and explain energeia and dunamis, I
                  > > was humbled by my realization of my remedial understanding of them
                  myself.
                  > > I'll keep working on the response, but it might take several days.
                  > > Perhaps someone who is a little more seasoned would like to help me on
                  > > this one?
                  > >
                  > > John
                  > >
                  > > --- In
                  LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > > "michael144000"
                  > >
                  > > <grailpriest@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Tell us more about energeia and dunamis.
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In
                  LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > > "Jeremy"
                  > > > <AdonaiUplifts@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > a couple more insights from First Fruits of Prayer, which I just
                  > > > read
                  > > > > this morning:
                  > > > > "The first canticle closes with petitions that ask the saints to
                  > > > pray
                  > > > > for us [. . .]
                  > > > > "This petition asks St. Mary to give us "the light of grace," but
                  > > > it
                  > > > > should not be understood as saying that St. Mary is in charge of
                  > > > > managing God's grace. It is a shorthand way of asking her to pray
                  > > > that
                  > > > > we be given God's grace."
                  > > > > p. 12
                  > > > >
                  > > > > "As Canticle Tree comes to an end, [. . .] we encounter a
                  number of
                  > > > > petitions to saints that they will pray for us. But this one
                  > > > might seem
                  > > > > to go too far; can St. Mary of Egypt [not the Theotokos], who is
                  > > > after
                  > > > > all human just like us, "keep us safe"? No, the implication is not
                  > > > that
                  > > > > she has superpowers, but that her will is so united with the will
                  > > > of God
                  > > > > that her prayers will be effective. This union is the goal for
                  > > > all of
                  > > > > us, and like her, it will come to us through the path of
                  > > > repentance."
                  > > > > p. 50
                  > > > > Does that help a little?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > It definitely takes some getting used to. But after a while, the
                  > > > > distinctions become very clear in heart and mind. Getting a better
                  > > > > grasp of the Orthodox understanding of grace as energia and
                  dunamis
                  > > > > helps a LOT.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > John
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In
                  LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > > "tantuslabor"
                  > > > > <stoic1348@> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Dear Andrew (what a wonderful name!),
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Let me take on just one of your questions--the "all my hope I
                  > > > place in
                  > > > > > thee" one. (At the end of Little Compline, we pray something
                  > > > similar
                  > > > > > to it to the Theotokos: "who *alone* art the hope of the
                  > > > hopeless, the
                  > > > > > help of those who do battle; the ready help of those who flee
                  > > > unto
                  > > > > > thee and the refuge of all Christians.")
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > When I was a teenager, I was profoundly struck by an argument of
                  > > > the
                  > > > > > Jehovah's Witnesses. Christ says to the Father, in John
                  > > > 17: "That they
                  > > > > > may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou
                  hast
                  > > > > > sent." Their argument went as follows: Christ himself calls the
                  > > > Father
                  > > > > > "the only true God;" Christ is not the Father; hence, Christ is
                  > > > not
                  > > > > > true God.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > The response to that argument teaches us something important
                  > > > about the
                  > > > > > Church's use of "alone," "only," and "all." It goes as follows.
                  > > > In 1
                  > > > > > John 5, St. John says of Christ, "He is the true God, and
                  eternal
                  > > > > > life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols." Here the
                  same
                  > > > > > author who recorded Jesus' statement that the Father is
                  > > > the "only"
                  > > > > > true God, says of Christ that he is the true God. That taught me
                  > > > that
                  > > > > > words like "only," "alone," and "all" have to be seen in their
                  > > > context
                  > > > > > to be understood rightly.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > When we say, to the Theotokos, "all my hope I place on
                  > > > thee," "who
                  > > > > > alone art the hope of the hopeless," etc. we do *not* mean "All
                  > > > my
                  > > > > > hope I place on thee, and none on God," or "who alone art the
                  > > > hope of
                  > > > > > the hopeless, not God." We mean, rather, "I place *no* hope on
                  > > > my own
                  > > > > > abilities, or those of my friends, or princes, but solely in the
                  > > > God
                  > > > > > who came to earth *through you*." We mean to take our hope and
                  > > > our
                  > > > > > trust away from our own wisdom and strength, and to learn to see
                  > > > true
                  > > > > > wisdom and strength in the "Let it be to me according to your
                  > > > word" of
                  > > > > > the Mother of God. For he whose cross is alone wisdom and
                  > > > strength,
                  > > > > > was born of her alone. And we do not take away honor and glory
                  > > > from
                  > > > > > the Holy Trinity, when we ascribe it to the means by which he
                  > > > > > worked/works our salvation--always, of course, as a means. So in
                  > > > the
                  > > > > > Akathist we say of the Theotokos, "*after God* do all of us for
                  > > > refuge
                  > > > > > flee unto thee"--not, of course, that there is an "after God,"
                  > > > but
                  > > > > > that we most fully flee for refuge to him, when that flight
                  > > > includes
                  > > > > > the means by which he accomplishes our salvation.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > The Orthodox have a profoundly developed sense of respect and
                  > > > > > reverence for the means of grace. We kiss the cross, and icons--
                  > > > even
                  > > > > > the right hand of sinful priests, because that hand feeds us
                  > > > with the
                  > > > > > flesh and blood of God's Son.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I hope this helps a little. Pray for me.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > The unworthy priest,
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Fr. Gregory Hogg
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --- In
                  LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > > "Andrew"
                  > > > > > drew1095950@ wrote:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > I'll be honest, some of these prayers do make me uneasy. I
                  > > > don't
                  > > > > mind
                  > > > > > > so much asking the intercession of the saints, in fact the
                  > > > practice
                  > > > > > > seems to beautifully enhance our understanding of the
                  > > > communion of
                  > > > > > > saints, but saying things like 'all my hope I place in thee'
                  > > > and
                  > > > > 'have
                  > > > > > > mercy on me' just rubs me the wrong way.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Christopher, I appreciate your numerous patristic quotations
                  > > > on the
                  > > > > > > historical pedigree of the practice. But, for my money, there
                  > > > does
                  > > > > > > seem to be development over time - from acknowledging that the
                  > > > > saints
                  > > > > > > pray for us, to asking their intercessions, to saying things
                  > > > like
                  > > > > > > 'from all dangers that can be do thou deliver us'. There just
                  > > > > doesn't
                  > > > > > > seem to be any cold hard evidence of robust invocation in the
                  > > > 2nd
                  > > > > > > century, which makes me question whether it is truly of
                  > > > Apostolic
                  > > > > > origin.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > One of the reasons, in fact, maybe the primary reason, I
                  > > > became a
                  > > > > > > Lutheran four years ago (I was raised in an Evangelical home)
                  > > > was I
                  > > > > > > saw remarkably strong evidence for the real presence of Christ
                  > > > in
                  > > > > the
                  > > > > > > eucharist in the ante-Nicene period. This was compelling to me
                  > > > > because
                  > > > > > > I just can't swallow the pill that says that stalwarts like
                  > > > > Ignatius,
                  > > > > > > Irenaeus, and Justin Martyr dropped the ball on such a key
                  > > > issue.
                  > > > > But
                  > > > > > > sadly, I don't see this same smack-you-in-the-face evidence
                  > > > for the
                  > > > > > > invocation of the saints that I see for the real presence.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Your thoughts?
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Andrew.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > --- In
                  LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > > "Christopher Orr"
                  > > > > > > <xcjorr@> wrote:
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > *Most Holy Theotokos, save us.* *O Lord Jesus Christ, Son
                  > > > of God,
                  > > > > > > for the
                  > > > > > > > sake of the prayers of Thy most pure Mother, of our holy and
                  > > > > > God-bearing
                  > > > > > > > fathers and all the saints, have mercy on us. Amen.* O good
                  > > > Mother
                  > > > > > > of the
                  > > > > > > > Good King, most pure and blessed Theotokos Mary, do thou
                  > > > pour out
                  > > > > > > the mercy
                  > > > > > > > of thy Son and our God upon my passionate soul, and by thine
                  > > > > > > intercessions
                  > > > > > > > guide me unto good works, that I may pass the remaining time
                  > > > of my
                  > > > > > life
                  > > > > > > > without blemish, and attain paradise through thee, O Virgin
                  > > > > > > Theotokos, who
                  > > > > > > > alone art pure and blessed.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > O Angel of Christ, my holy guardian and protector of my soul
                  > > > and
                  > > > > body,
                  > > > > > > > forgive me all wherein I have sinned this day, and deliver
                  > > > me from
                  > > > > all
                  > > > > > > > opposing evil of mine enemy, lest I anger my God by any sin.
                  > > > Pray
                  > > > > > > for me, a
                  > > > > > > > sinful and unworthy servant, that thou mayest show me forth
                  > > > worthy
                  > > > > > > of the
                  > > > > > > > kindness and mercy of the All-holy Trinity, and of the
                  > > > Mother of
                  > > > > > my Lord
                  > > > > > > > Jesus Christ, and of all the saints. Amen.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > *To Thee, the Champion Leader, we thy servants dedicate a
                  > > > feast of
                  > > > > > > victory
                  > > > > > > > and of thanksgiving as ones rescued out of sufferings, O
                  > > > > Theotokos;
                  > > > > > > but as
                  > > > > > > > thou art one with might which is invincible, from all
                  > > > dangers that
                  > > > > > > can be do
                  > > > > > > > thou deliver us, that we may cry to thee: Rejoice, thou
                  Bride
                  > > > > > Unwedded!*
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > *Most glorious, Ever-Virgin, Mother of Christ God, present
                  > > > our
                  > > > > > > prayer to thy
                  > > > > > > > Son and our God, that through thee He may save our souls.*
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > *All my hope I place in thee, O Mother of God: keep me under
                  > > > thy
                  > > > > > > protection.
                  > > > > > > > *
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > *O Virgin Theotokos, disdain not me a sinner, needing thy
                  > > > help and
                  > > > > thy
                  > > > > > > > protection, and have mercy on me, for my soul hath hoped in
                  > > > thee.*
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > *My hope is the Father, my refuge is the Son, my protection
                  > > > is the
                  > > > > > Holy
                  > > > > > > > Spirit: O Holy Trinity, glory to Thee.*
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > *Meet it is in truth to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art
                  ever
                  > > > > > > blessed and
                  > > > > > > > all-blameless, and the Mother of our God. More honorable
                  > > > than the
                  > > > > > > Cherubim
                  > > > > > > > and more glorious without compare than the Seraphim, who
                  > > > without
                  > > > > > > corruption
                  > > > > > > > gavest birth to God the Word, verily Theotokos, we magnify
                  > > > thee.*
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
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