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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: What is meant by justification?

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  • Anastasia Theodoridis
    ... Dear Andrew, In a nutshell: because the Orthodox do not view salvation in *primarily* forensic terms, but in broader terms, inter-personal ones, instead.
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 28, 2007
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      >> 2. The word "justification" is not eschewed by Orthodox theologians.
      >> See the commentaries by these Orthodox theologians, e.g., St John
      >> Chrysostom, St Ambrose, and St Augustine.

      >But why? That's what I'm trying to get at.

      Dear Andrew,

      In a nutshell: because the Orthodox do not view salvation in *primarily* forensic terms, but in broader terms, inter-personal ones, instead. The legal element (including justification) is certainly neither lacking nor, heaven forbid, denied; it's just not the emphasis.

      love in Christ,
      Anastasia

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Christopher Orr
      And I would go back to the fact that our read of Paul being so focused on justification is likely just that, our read of Paul. All those Fathers in the
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 28, 2007
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        And I would go back to the fact that our 'read' of Paul being so focused on
        justification is likely just that, our 'read' of Paul. All those Fathers in
        the subsequent years after Paul was writing did not speak in exactly the
        same way, so it is likely that Paul did not emphasize or understand
        salvation in the way we do. In fact, he may have delivered much more of
        Christianity to them than we have in the surviving Apostolic texts of the NT
        - which is exactly what St. Paul says in 2 Thes.

        Christopher


        On 2/28/07, Anastasia Theodoridis <anastasiatheo01@...> wrote:
        >
        > >> 2. The word "justification" is not eschewed by Orthodox theologians.
        > >> See the commentaries by these Orthodox theologians, e.g., St John
        > >> Chrysostom, St Ambrose, and St Augustine.
        >
        > >But why? That's what I'm trying to get at.
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jeremy
        We are reading through a book called FIRST FRUITS OF PRAYER, by Frederica Matthewes-Green, for our Adult Class at Church. There is a paragraph in today s
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 28, 2007
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          We are reading through a book called FIRST FRUITS OF PRAYER, by
          Frederica Matthewes-Green, for our Adult Class at Church. There is a
          paragraph in today's reading that might help clarify where the Orthodox
          emphasis is in their understanding of justification:

          "The Roman Empire established a monumental system of law that was
          effective in regulating the whole of the ancient world. We descendants
          of that history understand the word "justified" in that legal sense.
          But in the Hebraic and Greek biblical sense, justice was a condition of
          harmony between God and all Creation. It was a relationship. In this
          kind of "justice," the members of the community are in peaceful unity
          with each other.
          "This is why repentance matters. Raw legalism, pursuing external
          justice, could have no use for repentance. Repentance does not effect
          repayment, so it is irrelevant."

          Now this is a HUGE point. It's easy to just breeze right by that.
          But let it sink in. If God was so stuck on "making up" for our sins,
          like collecting debts so His balance sheet will balance, repentance
          wouldn't matter if we didn't first "satisfy" what that legal justice
          required. And besides, what concern with debt has compassionate and
          long-suffering love? I digress.

          "But we are justified because Christ loves us, and because we come
          to Him in humility and love. "Righteousness" is "right relationship"
          [yes, I know it's more than that, but this is a devotional] and a right
          relationship with Christ will cause His followers to behave like He does
          - not cowering before a code of "objective morality," but bearing "good
          fruit" (Matthew 7:17-18) from a healed heart.
          "Ponder the difference between theses two ways of understanding
          "justification," the "courtroom" meaning and the "relationship" meaning.
          Which is more demanding? WHich is more thorough? Which is more
          enduring?"

          As Anastasia said, keep in mind that the legal or forensic
          understanding of justification and salvation is not so much absent, as
          much as it is not very heavily emphasized.
          A friend of mine put it like this:
          "When it comes to confession and prayer, are we more likely to lay
          bare all our iniquities and infirmities before the Divine Judge or the
          Divine Physician?"
          Besides, a Physician helps us see our infirmities and iniquities for
          what they are, with the goal of healing and delivering us from them (two
          of the primary meanings of "salvation"). A Judge is there to . . .
          judge, and pass a sentence. Judgment will come at the Last Day, for
          which we should be preparing, but not before. At this point we are
          preparing, and God is our Helper. He Himself is our Life and Salvation.
          That brings me to something that bothered me when I was a Lutheran.
          It always seemed like we equivocated on "justification" and "salvation"
          as if they were identical. The view of salvation always seemed very
          one-sided. What of sanctification? glorification? Are they not also
          integral to salvation?

          This has really been a great thread so far! Keep asking the tough
          questions, Andrew.


          Jeremy




          --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <drew1095950@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Anastasia,
          >
          > While all that is helpful, it still seems to dodge the question: what
          is meant by justification?
          > You say 'I am justified'. Well and good, but what does that mean?
          >
          >
          > Thanks for your contribution.
          >
          > Andrew.
          >




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Randy Asburry
          Please forgive my tardiness to this thread, but last week entailed fighting a nasty head cold and then playing catch up, and I am just now reading through the
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 5, 2007
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            Please forgive my tardiness to this thread, but last week entailed fighting
            a nasty head cold and then playing catch up, and I am just now reading
            through the emails.



            Perhaps this little gem from Bp. Kallistos Ware on justification and
            sanctification can be helpful (from his little book How Are We Saved: The
            Understanding of Salvation in the Orthodox Tradition, p. 66-67):



            "By this time it will be abundantly clear that, when we Orthodox speak about
            salvation, we do not have in view any sharp differentiation between
            justification and sanctification. Indeed, Orthodox usually have little to
            say about justification as a distinct topic; I note, for example, that in my
            own work The Orthodox Church, written thirty years ago, the word
            'justification' does not appear in the index, although this was not a
            deliberate omission. Orthodoxy links sanctification and justification
            together, just as St. Paul does in 1 Cor. 6:11: 'You were washed, you were
            sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in
            the Spirit of our God.' The references to justification in the opening
            chapters of Romans (for example 3:20, 24, 28), we understand in the light of
            Romans 6:4-10, which describe our radical incorporation through baptism into
            Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Salvation, as already stated, is
            not a single event in our past life but an ongoing process of growth in
            Christ. It is not simply to turn our face in the right direction and to take
            the first step on our journey, but it is to continue walking until by God's
            grace we attain our journey's end. We Orthodox, then, "see 'justification'
            and 'sanctification' as one divine action.one continuous process", to use
            the words of the Common Statement issued by the Lutheran-Orthodox Dialogue
            in North America. As Bishop Maximos Aghiorgoussis says: Justification is not
            a separate act of God but the negative aspect of salvation in Christ, which
            is freedom from sin, death and the devil; whereas sanctification is the
            positive aspect of God's saving act, that of spiritual growth in the new
            life in Christ communicated by God's Holy Spirit. The two aspects, negative
            and positive, form a single undivided reality."





            + + + + +
            Rev. Randy Asburry
            Hope Lutheran Church
            St. Louis, MO
            <mailto:r.asburry@...> mailto:r.asburry@...

            "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
            conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity." (Augsburg
            Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).



            _____

            From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
            Theodoridis
            Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 9:24 AM
            To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: What is meant by justification?



            >> 2. The word "justification" is not eschewed by Orthodox theologians.
            >> See the commentaries by these Orthodox theologians, e.g., St John
            >> Chrysostom, St Ambrose, and St Augustine.

            >But why? That's what I'm trying to get at.

            Dear Andrew,

            In a nutshell: because the Orthodox do not view salvation in *primarily*
            forensic terms, but in broader terms, inter-personal ones, instead. The
            legal element (including justification) is certainly neither lacking nor,
            heaven forbid, denied; it's just not the emphasis.

            love in Christ,
            Anastasia

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jeremy
            Right on! I just came across this quote in another article I was reading this morning: Justification is a word used in the Scriptures to mean that in Christ
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 5, 2007
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              Right on!
              I just came across this quote in another article I was reading this
              morning:

              "Justification is a word used in the Scriptures to mean that in Christ
              we are forgiven and actually made righteous in our living.
              Justification is not a once-for-all, instantaneous pronouncement
              guaranteeing eternal salvation, no matter how wickedly a person may
              live from that point on. Neither is it merely a legal declaration
              that an unrighteous person is righteous. Rather, justification is a
              living, dynamic, day-to-day reality for the one who follows Christ.
              The Christian actively pursues a righteous life in the grace and power
              of God granted to all who are believing Him."

              - What Orthodox Christians Believe. (Ben Lomand, CA: Conciliar
              Press), 1988. Pg. 7. -


              John

              --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Randy Asburry"
              <r.asburry@...> wrote:
              >
              > Please forgive my tardiness to this thread, but last week entailed
              fighting
              > a nasty head cold and then playing catch up, and I am just now reading
              > through the emails.
              >
              >
              >
              > Perhaps this little gem from Bp. Kallistos Ware on justification and
              > sanctification can be helpful (from his little book How Are We
              Saved: The
              > Understanding of Salvation in the Orthodox Tradition, p. 66-67):
              >
              >
              >
              > "By this time it will be abundantly clear that, when we Orthodox
              speak about
              > salvation, we do not have in view any sharp differentiation between
              > justification and sanctification. Indeed, Orthodox usually have
              little to
              > say about justification as a distinct topic; I note, for example,
              that in my
              > own work The Orthodox Church, written thirty years ago, the word
              > 'justification' does not appear in the index, although this was not a
              > deliberate omission. Orthodoxy links sanctification and justification
              > together, just as St. Paul does in 1 Cor. 6:11: 'You were washed,
              you were
              > sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ
              and in
              > the Spirit of our God.' The references to justification in the opening
              > chapters of Romans (for example 3:20, 24, 28), we understand in the
              light of
              > Romans 6:4-10, which describe our radical incorporation through
              baptism into
              > Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Salvation, as already
              stated, is
              > not a single event in our past life but an ongoing process of growth in
              > Christ. It is not simply to turn our face in the right direction and
              to take
              > the first step on our journey, but it is to continue walking until
              by God's
              > grace we attain our journey's end. We Orthodox, then, "see
              'justification'
              > and 'sanctification' as one divine action.one continuous process",
              to use
              > the words of the Common Statement issued by the Lutheran-Orthodox
              Dialogue
              > in North America. As Bishop Maximos Aghiorgoussis says:
              Justification is not
              > a separate act of God but the negative aspect of salvation in
              Christ, which
              > is freedom from sin, death and the devil; whereas sanctification is the
              > positive aspect of God's saving act, that of spiritual growth in the new
              > life in Christ communicated by God's Holy Spirit. The two aspects,
              negative
              > and positive, form a single undivided reality."
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > + + + + +
              > Rev. Randy Asburry
              > Hope Lutheran Church
              > St. Louis, MO
              > <mailto:r.asburry@...> mailto:r.asburry@...
              >
              > "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
              > conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity."
              (Augsburg
              > Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).
              >
              >
              >
              > _____
              >
              > From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
              > Theodoridis
              > Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 9:24 AM
              > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: What is meant by justification?
              >
              >
              >
              > >> 2. The word "justification" is not eschewed by Orthodox theologians.
              > >> See the commentaries by these Orthodox theologians, e.g., St John
              > >> Chrysostom, St Ambrose, and St Augustine.
              >
              > >But why? That's what I'm trying to get at.
              >
              > Dear Andrew,
              >
              > In a nutshell: because the Orthodox do not view salvation in *primarily*
              > forensic terms, but in broader terms, inter-personal ones, instead. The
              > legal element (including justification) is certainly neither lacking
              nor,
              > heaven forbid, denied; it's just not the emphasis.
              >
              > love in Christ,
              > Anastasia
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Trent Sebits
              The following is a short essay written by Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon on justification that I found informative. Trent Sebits Although the Judaizing controversy
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 5, 2007
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                The following is a short essay written by Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon on
                justification that I found informative.

                Trent Sebits

                Although the Judaizing controversy of the 50's forced the doctrine of
                Justification rather clearly to the fore in some of St. Paul's epistles,
                this aspect of Christ's atonement is hardly the key to all Pauline
                theology that later Western polemics made it out to be. Indeed, the
                theme of Justification is hardly to be found in the Thessalonian
                letters, which were written prior to the Judaizing controversy, and even
                in some later epistles Jystification does not rise to dominance. If
                Justification (dikaiosis) were the major topic of Paul's thought, we
                would surely expect him to use the word more than twice (Romans 4:25;
                5:18, but also dikaioma in 5:16). While the verb "to justify" (dikaioo)
                is used 15 times in Romans and 8 times in Galatians, it appears only 4
                other times, in fact, in the rest of Paul's writings (1 Corinthians 4:4;
                6:11; 1 Timothy 3:16; Titus 3:7).

                To gain a more balanced sense of St. Paul's theological perspective, it
                is instructive to compare those numbers with the 62 times that Paul uses
                the noun "church" (ekklesia). Simply from the perspective of vocabulary
                frequency, it is obvious that Paul spent far more time and effort on
                ecclesiology than on Justification.

                This is not to say, of course, that Justification is a minor theme in
                St. Paul. On the contrary, this aspect of the Christian's relationship
                with God pertains to the heart of Paul's theology of revelation. The
                revelation of God in Christ is the disclosure of the righteous God
                foretold in biblical prophecy.

                All through the Bible, and not only in Paul, after all, it is the God of
                righteousness who brings deliverance to His people through His great
                deeds of mercy and fidelity to His covenant. The culminating work of His
                redemption is the act by which this righteous God makes man himself
                righteous, "because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that
                were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His
                righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier (dikaon kai
                dikaiounta) of the one who has faith in Jesus" (Romans 3:25-26).

                This divine deed, by which God justifies man, is entirely of grace; it
                is nothing that man can merit or deserve, because "all have sinned and
                fall short of the glory of God" (3:23). The sheer gratuity of God's
                justifying act is the basis of Paul's contention that those that are
                justified in Christ have no need to justify themselves by the observance
                of the Mosaic Law. Thus, the doctrine of justification, which Paul
                elaborated in response to the Judaizing controversy of the 50's, laid
                the basis for an essential step in the development of ecclesiology. It
                enunciated the principle that would, in practice, separate Judaism from
                the Church. It is the trauma of that growing separation that we see in
                Paul's epistles and in the Acts of the Apostles.

                The verb "to justify," dikaioo, when it is used in the Septuagint,
                normally means a declaration of righteousness. This is exactly what we
                would expect in the Old Testament, under a covenant that could not make
                men righteous, and with sacrifices of bulls and goats that could never
                take away sins.

                This is not the case in the New Testament, however, where God's
                justification of man in Christ is not a mere pronouncement, as though
                somehow a guilty party has been declared "not guilty" by a forensic
                declaration. No, what the creating God says, He accomplishes.
                Justification in the New Testament is an ontological reality, not a
                legal fiction. What the creating God declares, He makes come to pass.

                And how does God make man righteous? By identifying him with Christ, His
                own beloved Son, through the inner working of divine grace. It is man's
                identification with Christ that renders a man just before God, for
                Christ alone is the righteous One.

                By Adam's sin, after all, we human beings were not simply "declared"
                sinners, but "made" sinners. So too, St. Paul reasons, in Christ we are
                "made" righteous: "For as by one man's disobedience many were made
                (katestathesan) sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be
                made (katastathesonatai) righteous" (Romans 5:19).

                Man, with no righteousness of his own, receives the righteousness of
                God. The believer is justified by receiving into his very being the
                revelation of God's righteousness in Christ: "I also count all things
                loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for
                whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish,
                that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own
                righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in
                Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith" (Philippians
                3:8-9).

                This "righteousness which is from God" is an internal fact, an
                alteration of man's soul, the very action of justifying grace, by which
                the believer himself becomes righteous, because God "made Him who knew
                no sin to be sin for us, that we might become (genometha) the
                righteousness of God in Him" (2 Corinthians 5:21).

                Fr. Patrick Reardon is pastor of All Saints Antiochian Orthodox Church
                in Chicago, Illinois, and a Senior Editor of Touchstone: A Journal of
                Mere Christianity <http://www.touchstonemag.com/> . He is also the
                author of Christ in the Psalms, and Christ in His Saints (both books are
                published by Conciliar Press).


                ________________________________

                From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy
                Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 8:33 AM
                To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: What is meant by justification?



                Right on!
                I just came across this quote in another article I was reading this
                morning:

                "Justification is a word used in the Scriptures to mean that in Christ
                we are forgiven and actually made righteous in our living.
                Justification is not a once-for-all, instantaneous pronouncement
                guaranteeing eternal salvation, no matter how wickedly a person may
                live from that point on. Neither is it merely a legal declaration
                that an unrighteous person is righteous. Rather, justification is a
                living, dynamic, day-to-day reality for the one who follows Christ.
                The Christian actively pursues a righteous life in the grace and power
                of God granted to all who are believing Him."

                - What Orthodox Christians Believe. (Ben Lomand, CA: Conciliar
                Press), 1988. Pg. 7. -

                John

                --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com> , "Randy Asburry"
                <r.asburry@...> wrote:
                >
                > Please forgive my tardiness to this thread, but last week entailed
                fighting
                > a nasty head cold and then playing catch up, and I am just now reading
                > through the emails.
                >
                >
                >
                > Perhaps this little gem from Bp. Kallistos Ware on justification and
                > sanctification can be helpful (from his little book How Are We
                Saved: The
                > Understanding of Salvation in the Orthodox Tradition, p. 66-67):
                >
                >
                >
                > "By this time it will be abundantly clear that, when we Orthodox
                speak about
                > salvation, we do not have in view any sharp differentiation between
                > justification and sanctification. Indeed, Orthodox usually have
                little to
                > say about justification as a distinct topic; I note, for example,
                that in my
                > own work The Orthodox Church, written thirty years ago, the word
                > 'justification' does not appear in the index, although this was not a
                > deliberate omission. Orthodoxy links sanctification and justification
                > together, just as St. Paul does in 1 Cor. 6:11: 'You were washed,
                you were
                > sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ
                and in
                > the Spirit of our God.' The references to justification in the opening
                > chapters of Romans (for example 3:20, 24, 28), we understand in the
                light of
                > Romans 6:4-10, which describe our radical incorporation through
                baptism into
                > Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Salvation, as already
                stated, is
                > not a single event in our past life but an ongoing process of growth
                in
                > Christ. It is not simply to turn our face in the right direction and
                to take
                > the first step on our journey, but it is to continue walking until
                by God's
                > grace we attain our journey's end. We Orthodox, then, "see
                'justification'
                > and 'sanctification' as one divine action.one continuous process",
                to use
                > the words of the Common Statement issued by the Lutheran-Orthodox
                Dialogue
                > in North America. As Bishop Maximos Aghiorgoussis says:
                Justification is not
                > a separate act of God but the negative aspect of salvation in
                Christ, which
                > is freedom from sin, death and the devil; whereas sanctification is
                the
                > positive aspect of God's saving act, that of spiritual growth in the
                new
                > life in Christ communicated by God's Holy Spirit. The two aspects,
                negative
                > and positive, form a single undivided reality."
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > + + + + +
                > Rev. Randy Asburry
                > Hope Lutheran Church
                > St. Louis, MO
                > <mailto:r.asburry@...> mailto:r.asburry@...
                >
                > "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
                > conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity."
                (Augsburg
                > Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).
                >
                >
                >
                > _____
                >
                > From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                > [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                > Theodoridis
                > Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 9:24 AM
                > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: What is meant by
                justification?
                >
                >
                >
                > >> 2. The word "justification" is not eschewed by Orthodox
                theologians.
                > >> See the commentaries by these Orthodox theologians, e.g., St John
                > >> Chrysostom, St Ambrose, and St Augustine.
                >
                > >But why? That's what I'm trying to get at.
                >
                > Dear Andrew,
                >
                > In a nutshell: because the Orthodox do not view salvation in
                *primarily*
                > forensic terms, but in broader terms, inter-personal ones, instead.
                The
                > legal element (including justification) is certainly neither lacking
                nor,
                > heaven forbid, denied; it's just not the emphasis.
                >
                > love in Christ,
                > Anastasia
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Laura
                Hello everyone, I joined LLE a few weeks ago and haven t properly introduced myself yet. My name is Laura Frizelle. I live in Eagle River, Alaska and am
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 9, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello everyone, I joined LLE a few weeks ago and haven't properly introduced
                  myself yet. My name is Laura Frizelle. I live in Eagle River, Alaska and
                  am currently a LCMS Lutheran and have been seriously inquiring into
                  Orthodoxy since last August. I am reading lots and participating as much as
                  I can in the local Antiochian parish down the road where my boys also attend
                  preschool and kindergarten.

                  The articles and quotes that you all have shared on justification have been
                  good. Thank-you all. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the
                  following:

                  I read an interesting essay by Dr. David Scaer from Concordia Theological
                  Seminary in Ft. Wayne, Indiana yesterday. The title is "Sanctification in
                  the Lutheran Confessions" and you can find it in the July 1989 Concordia
                  Theological Quarterly.

                  Many things that he said in the essay in regard to justification and its
                  relationship to sanctification flowing in one continuous stream out of
                  Christ for us and in us sounded a lot like the Orthodox perspective on
                  justification that you have been talking about recently on this forum.

                  Scaer sees that justification and sanctification are all wrapped up
                  together.

                  Of course what Scaer says here includes no notion of cooperation or synergy,
                  but I thought it remarkable that he is almost criticizing the way that
                  Lutherans tend to go overboard parsing God's saving work into scholastic
                  categories. Subjective and objective, passive and active, the first, second
                  and third uses of the law. etc...

                  Also it is interesting that he says, "Lutheranism is the only one among
                  WESTERN religions that offers a doctrine of justification which is not
                  intrinsically moralistic."

                  by this does he mean that the East also has it right???
                  HMMMM? ;-)

                  I quote Dr. Scaer further:

                  "Doctrines should not be regarded as separate entities brought together to
                  construct a whole, but perspectives on Christ's person and work (ie.,
                  Christology). Justification, the chief article in Lutheranism, is only an
                  extension of Christology into the life of the believer in regard to the
                  certainty of salvation. God justifies the sinner for Christ's sake. In
                  turn sanctification is an extension first of justification and then
                  Christology. "

                  and

                  "When justification becomes an item which is now seen through the rear-view
                  mirror as something which has happened and sanctification or the Christian
                  life is seen as something which is viewed through the windshield as a
                  current or future action, sanctification is bound to deteriorate into
                  moralism (phariseeism)."

                  "The Christian is alive to Christ and dead to sin and the law. By faith
                  Christ is now living in him and he is no longer living, but Christ is living
                  in him. In this moment the separate articles of Christology, justification,
                  and sanctification have indeed become one cloth and one substance......The
                  Christian or sanctified life is Christological, first of all because Christ
                  lives in us by faith; secondly it is Christ who is doing these works in us;
                  and thirdly these works are clearly recognizable as those which Christ alone
                  can do and which He in fact does in us."

                  "The Spirit directed life is a completely Christological life, because the
                  Spirit who was responsible for his conception is the same Spirit whom Christ
                  sent into the world."

                  "The law and Gospel which stood in antithetical relationship for the world
                  in sin find their perfect harmony and unity first in Christ who has
                  fulfilled the law and given ust the Gospel, but also now in the sanctified
                  life of the Christian. The good works which Adam could do before he sinned
                  and could never do as a sinner, we can now do in Christ and as Christ did.
                  This is Luther's understanding of good works in the Small Catechism and in
                  doing this he showed us how Christology, justification, and sanctification
                  belong together."


                  Being in Christ, justified and sanctified all together---is this not what
                  theosis is?

                  Last August a Lutheran pastor who converted told me that the juridical
                  paradigm that Lutherans and all other western churches emphasize over others
                  is just one paradigm. Orthodoxy emphasizes healing and restoration. That
                  doesn't mean that the juridical paradigm doesn't exist in Orthodoxy, it
                  does. Christ will come to judge the living and the dead.

                  But when you think about who God is and why he created us in his image and
                  likeness--for communion with the Holy Trinity, each person unique, yet
                  completely united in perfect love-- (In contrast to the Lutheran unspoken
                  notion that he created us to be his happy and efficient workers-- alles in
                  ordnung! How does the small catechism put it? Our chief duty is love,
                  serve and obey...)

                  What does God see when he looks at us? Which paradigm fits our relationship
                  with him the best?

                  For me, the next BIG questions was, "Who is man? What is sin? What do the
                  Orthodox believe happened in the garden of Eden? Does sinful man have any
                  ability to choose or seek God?"

                  The answers to these questions opened my eyes and my heart in a big way.

                  God wants us to see his face in everyone, especially the very least of our
                  neighbors. I believe when he looks at humanity, and each of us as
                  individuals, in his mercy and because of Christ, he sees the potential for
                  love and communion with us more than he sees our rotten sinfulness.

                  I believe healing and restoration is the better paradigm to describe the
                  Holy Trinity's work for us and in us. Overemphasizing the juridical aspect
                  of salvation causes many of us to color God, the Father especially, with
                  worldly misunderstanding of justice and contempt because true righteousness
                  is not experienced by many of us in our daily life and discipline that flows
                  out of pure love is rare.

                  I think that the Lutheran distinction between Law and Gospel sets us up to
                  think ...law bad....gospel good.
                  Our Lutheran tendencies toward minimalizing, sola-izing, and reductionism
                  get us into lots of trouble.

                  'Nuff said for now!

                  Peace, Love and Joy in Christ Our Lord!
                  Laura
                • Laura
                  correction, you probably caught it already, but... Dr. David Scaer said in his essay Sanctification in the Lutheran Confessions published in the July 1989
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 9, 2007
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                    correction, you probably caught it already, but...

                    Dr. David Scaer said in his essay "Sanctification in the Lutheran
                    Confessions" published in the July 1989 issue of Concordia Theological
                    Quarterly

                    "Lutheranism is the only one among WESTERN religions that offers a doctrine
                    of ...sanctification...which is not intrinsically moralistic."

                    Do you think he means to say that the Eastern Orthodox also have it right,
                    meaning not moralistic?

                    Do any of you who are already Orthodox view deification as moralistic?

                    Peace,
                    Laura
                  • gshenricus
                    Just for giggles and grins, I went to try and dig up that article from Dr. Scaer which you posted a portion of. I found out that I will have to order the
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 9, 2007
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                      Just for giggles and grins, I went to try and dig up that article
                      from Dr. Scaer which you posted a portion of. I found out that I
                      will have to order the entire issue which I have done. If there is
                      away to post the entire article so that all (Orthodox and Lutherans
                      alike) may understand what Dr. Scaer is saying, I will do so (that is
                      if the moderator allows it).

                      However in the meantime here is anothe article from Dr. Scaer from a
                      CTQ issue in 1985, called "Sanctification in Lutheran Theology" which
                      everyone here might find of interest as well. Here is the link:
                      http://www.ctsfw.edu/ctq/text/aprjul85scaer.pdf

                      Enjoy

                      Pr. Gregory Hinners
                      LCMS pastor & unworthy servant

                      --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Laura <lfrizelle@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > correction, you probably caught it already, but...
                      >
                      > Dr. David Scaer said in his essay "Sanctification in the Lutheran
                      > Confessions" published in the July 1989 issue of Concordia
                      Theological
                      > Quarterly
                      >
                      > "Lutheranism is the only one among WESTERN religions that offers a
                      doctrine
                      > of ...sanctification...which is not intrinsically moralistic."
                      >
                      > Do you think he means to say that the Eastern Orthodox also have it
                      right,
                      > meaning not moralistic?
                      >
                      > Do any of you who are already Orthodox view deification as
                      moralistic?
                      >
                      > Peace,
                      > Laura
                      >
                    • Laura
                      Thanks Pastor Hinners, I printed off the Scaer paper you linked in your message. I look forward to reading it. Father Harold Dunaway and his wife Khouria Barb
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 10, 2007
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                        Thanks Pastor Hinners,

                        I printed off the Scaer paper you linked in your message.
                        I look forward to reading it.

                        Father Harold Dunaway and his wife Khouria Barb are going to get together
                        with me after Bright week and we are going to read over these Scaer papers
                        and the latest issue of Good News on Teaching which is, from what I can tell
                        so far, a summarization of the Lutheran doctrines of Justification and
                        Sanctification.

                        It will be good to get an Orthodox critique of these Lutheran doctrines to
                        figure out more precisely what the differences are so that I can better
                        renounce them if and when I convert.

                        Also I am simply looking forward to spending time with Fr. Harold and Kh.
                        Barb. They converted from Campus Crusade for Christ back in the 70's with
                        Fr. Peter Gilquist, Fr. Jack Sparks (who is also a part of the local parish
                        here) and the other large group of evangelicals, about 2000 in all I think.
                        These are dear, dear saints who I am growing to love and cherish more and
                        more every time I see them.

                        Praise Him in the Highest!
                        Laura
                      • Laura
                        You know what would be the coolest? To have Dr. Scaer, his wife Dorothy, Dr. Weinrich, Roland Zeigler, Fr. Sparks, Fr. Harold and Kh. Barb all together for
                        Message 11 of 24 , Mar 10, 2007
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                          You know what would be the coolest?

                          To have Dr. Scaer, his wife Dorothy, Dr. Weinrich, Roland Zeigler, Fr.
                          Sparks, Fr. Harold and Kh. Barb all together for Happy hour and BBQ then a
                          big long conversation about theology. If I could choose the topic it would
                          be, "What does it mean to be created in the image and likeness of God?"
                          Even better...to have Bishop JOSEPH there too. WOW!!! That would be
                          amazing!

                          Dr. Scaer and Dorothy came up to Alaska a few years ago to speak at a
                          conference and we got the privilege to host them. We also spent a day on a
                          glacier cruise with them and driving from Homer, to Seward and back to Eagle
                          River. They were the most warm, down to earth people you would ever want to
                          host. We have a very modest home and we had two boys 3 and 1 at the time. I
                          was so nervous, but they set me at ease immediately.

                          Our oldest son warmed up to Dr. Scaer faster than any other adult he had
                          met, even his own Grandpa! Dr. Scaer constantly held Ian's hand and helped
                          him cross streets. He kept him engaged in conversation about everything
                          they saw.

                          Dorothy impressed me so much too. The first thing she said to our littlest
                          guy, James was, "How can I help you?"

                          It is painful to meditate on the loss that we all suffer from Christ's
                          church being so divided. I know that the Holy Spirit is working how he
                          wills and God's plans are not our plans, but we get in the way of his plans
                          so much! We are so full of pride and resist being united here on Earth. If
                          only the Reformers and the Patriarch of Constantinople could have gotten
                          over their pride and cultural barriers way back when....sigh!

                          Heaven is going to be amazing!!

                          In Christ,
                          Laura
                        • Reader Christopher
                          ... doctrine ... right, ... Anastasia has often said something to the effect of, Works are not how we earn salvation, they are salvation. Salvation is not
                          Message 12 of 24 , Mar 12, 2007
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                            --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Laura <lfrizelle@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > correction, you probably caught it already, but...
                            >
                            > Dr. David Scaer said in his essay "Sanctification in the Lutheran
                            > Confessions" published in the July 1989 issue of Concordia Theological
                            > Quarterly
                            >
                            > "Lutheranism is the only one among WESTERN religions that offers a
                            doctrine
                            > of ...sanctification...which is not intrinsically moralistic."
                            >
                            > Do you think he means to say that the Eastern Orthodox also have it
                            right,
                            > meaning not moralistic?
                            >
                            > Do any of you who are already Orthodox view deification as moralistic?
                            >
                            > Peace,
                            > Laura
                            >


                            Anastasia has often said something to the effect of, "Works are not
                            how we earn salvation, they are salvation." Salvation is not just
                            being forgiven our debts, but in being conformed to the likeness of
                            Christ. St. Anthony the Great defined union with God as doing what God
                            does. The important thing to remember, and it is riddled throughout
                            the prayers before Communion, is that we are unworthy and have not
                            conformed ourselves to Christ's image - and yet we dare to approach
                            because Christ allowed the sinful woman, the woman with an issue of
                            blood, the persecutor, etc. to come to him. He do not question God's
                            love and care for us because of our unworthiness and His ability to
                            purify us of our sins by His presence, we question our own ability to
                            receive "without condemnation" Christ in all His glory.

                            The whole matrix of justification/sanctification seems to me to be a
                            grasping at 'security' in God being good to me. The whole point is in
                            getting God to be good *to me*, and not upholding His goodness,
                            regardless of what I get out of it. Questioning our salvation is
                            different than questioning whether God loves me.

                            Christopher
                          • Laura Frizelle
                            Thanks Reader Christopher, Well said. For a long time now I have felt like Lutheranism is lacking or confused in the area of teaching sanctification and so far
                            Message 13 of 24 , Mar 12, 2007
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                              Thanks Reader Christopher,

                              Well said.

                              For a long time now I have felt like Lutheranism is lacking
                              or confused in the area of teaching sanctification and so
                              far it seems like E.O. has a better, more holistic even more
                              biblical view in the area of how works relate to salvation.

                              I guess like anything, we sinners can get this wrong and
                              twist sanctification or theosis all up whether we are
                              Lutheran or Orthodox, but I look forward to being part of a
                              church that doesn't dodge good works and out of Romophobia
                              or whatever.

                              Peace in Christ,
                              Laura
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