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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Comments?: Lutherans on the "Worship of the Saints"

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  • BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
    Thank you! If I must choose between the opinion of Dr Martin Luther and Patriarch John the Golden-Tongued [inter alia], Dr Luther has already lost. Peter
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 31, 2007
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      Thank you! If I must choose between the opinion of Dr Martin Luther and Patriarch John the Golden-Tongued [inter alia], Dr Luther has already lost. Peter

      Edward Wolfe <ewolfe@...> wrote:
      No matter that the Church has venerated and invoked the saints over
      the centuries -- those lately come have determined that their Fathers
      are wrong!


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    • JiMiRoYaL
      Greetings in Christ, I sure think I remember you as a Lutheran pastor who used to post over on the Orthodox-Lutheran dialogue list. It appears that you are
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
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        Greetings in Christ,

        I sure think I remember you as a Lutheran pastor who used to post
        over on the Orthodox-Lutheran dialogue list. It appears that you are
        now Fr. Ezekiel - would these assumptions be correct?

        Glory to God in all things!

        JiMi

        --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Edward Wolfe"
        <ewolfe@...> wrote:
        >
        > I find the discussion of the folks on ""The Blog of Concord"
        > interesting, not just because I once was Lutheran, but because all
        > argumentation centers, for the most part, on quotes from Martin
        > Luther, and from Martin Chemnitz and their 16th century thinking.
        > Every Father and every Saint, and the practices of the Ancient Faith
        > (Orthodoxy) are filtered through their eyes and thinking.
        >
        > No matter that the Church has venerated and invoked the saints over
        > the centuries -- those lately come have determined that their
        Fathers
        > are wrong!
        >
        > Of course, this in one of the reasons for my own homecoming: the
        > disrespect of the "great great great .... grandchildren" for their
        > Fathers. It is for the Lutherans as though there was the Apostolic
        > age, then everything went south until they appeared on the scene.
        And
        > the "sons and daughters" of Luther are worse than he!
        >
        > For them "veneration" and "invocation" equal worship, whether it is
        > true or not!
        >
        > Ezekiel+
        >
      • BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
        Today 07/20 on the Julian calendar the Holy Prophet Elijah / Elias is commemorated. Here are a few selected liturgical texts. From Little Vespers: [sticheron
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
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          Today 07/20 on the Julian calendar the Holy Prophet Elijah / Elias is commemorated. Here are a few selected liturgical texts.

          From Little Vespers: [sticheron tone 1]:

          + With the light of the divine radiance of the three-fold Sun, with purity of mind and righteous judgment didst thou denounce the impious king as transgressor of the Law and didst shut the heavens, and didst nurture the widow and her son. Pray thou, O prophet, that our souls be saved.

          From Great Vespers:

          [at the Litia, sticheron, tone 4]
          + O blessed prophet, thou wast a partaker of incorrupt union in God my Savior; parting the Jordan by prayer, thou didst cross it as dry land, and wast caught up on a fiery chariot to the heavens, leaving Elisha a double measure of grace. Wherefore we beseech thee: though thou hast been caught up in the body, yet sunder not thyself from us in spirit, and ever entreat the Lord, that our souls be saved.

          [at the aposticha, sticheron, tone 6] Glory...
          + O prophet, preacher of Christ, thou dost never depart from the Throne of Majesty, and ever intercedest for every one afflicted with sickness. Ministering in the highest, glorified in all places, thou dost bless the whole world. Ask thou for cleansing for our souls.

          [troparion / apolytikion of the prophet, tone 4]
          + The angel in the flesh, the foundation of the prophets, the second forerunner of the Coming of Christ, the glorious Elijah from on high sent down grace on Elisha to dispel infirmities and to cleanse lepers. Wherefore, he poureth forth healings upon them that honor him.
          Glory...Now and ever...[theotokion, tone 4]
          + The mystery hidden from before the ages and unknown even to the angels, through thee, O Theotokos, hath been revealed to those on earth: God incarnate in unconfused union, Who willingly accepted the Cross for our sake and, thereby raising up the first-formed man, hath saved our souls from death.

          From Matins:

          [troparion from Ode VIII, canon 1]
          + On Tabor Christ showed thee to be an initiate of the mystery of His divine incarnation, as thou wast an instiller of purity and a most divine offshoot of virginity, showing the unapproachable light of the Godhead in His body to thee that criest out: All ye works of the Lord, hymn and supremely exalt Him for all ages.

          [troparion from Ode IX, canon 1]
          + The Tishbite and Moses the God-seer beheld in revelation on Tabor what eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, and what hath not entered into the hearts of earth-born men: the Lord Almighty, incarnate.

          ------
          Translation of Reader Isaac E Lambertsen, copyright 1983 & 1987, published at the St John of Kronstadt Press.


          ---------------------------------
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        • Edward Wolfe
          ... Jimi, You are correct in that I was part of the Orthodox-Lutheran list, and I was indeed a Lutheran pastor. However, I am not a priest. What God has in
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
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            --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "JiMiRoYaL" <jimi@...> wrote:
            >
            > Greetings in Christ,
            >
            > I sure think I remember you as a Lutheran pastor who used to post
            > over on the Orthodox-Lutheran dialogue list. It appears that you are
            > now Fr. Ezekiel - would these assumptions be correct?
            >
            > Glory to God in all things!
            >
            > JiMi

            >

            Jimi,

            You are correct in that I was part of the Orthodox-Lutheran list, and
            I was indeed a Lutheran pastor.

            However, I am not a priest. What God has in store for me in this
            regard is not clear yet! :)

            At this point, we are active in our parish, living as fully as
            Orthodox as we can, and I do woodworking (turning, scrollwork and
            other things) and work fulltime at Rockler Woodworking and Hardware.

            I'm also doing some work on home inconostases, too.

            Ezekiel+
          • ANATASIA THEODORIDIS
            That last song you ve supplied reminds me: with the feast of the Transfiguration approaching, it s good to ponder that upon Mt. Tabor, Jesus was revealed
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 4, 2007
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              That last song you've supplied reminds me: with the feast of the Transfiguration approaching, it's good to ponder that upon Mt. Tabor, Jesus was revealed conversing with two dead saints.

              Anastasia


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
              To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 8:01 PM
              Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] on the "Worship of the Saints" an example


              Today 07/20 on the Julian calendar the Holy Prophet Elijah / Elias is commemorated. Here are a few selected liturgical texts.

              From Little Vespers: [sticheron tone 1]:

              + With the light of the divine radiance of the three-fold Sun, with purity of mind and righteous judgment didst thou denounce the impious king as transgressor of the Law and didst shut the heavens, and didst nurture the widow and her son. Pray thou, O prophet, that our souls be saved.

              From Great Vespers:

              [at the Litia, sticheron, tone 4]
              + O blessed prophet, thou wast a partaker of incorrupt union in God my Savior; parting the Jordan by prayer, thou didst cross it as dry land, and wast caught up on a fiery chariot to the heavens, leaving Elisha a double measure of grace. Wherefore we beseech thee: though thou hast been caught up in the body, yet sunder not thyself from us in spirit, and ever entreat the Lord, that our souls be saved.

              [at the aposticha, sticheron, tone 6] Glory...
              + O prophet, preacher of Christ, thou dost never depart from the Throne of Majesty, and ever intercedest for every one afflicted with sickness. Ministering in the highest, glorified in all places, thou dost bless the whole world. Ask thou for cleansing for our souls.

              [troparion / apolytikion of the prophet, tone 4]
              + The angel in the flesh, the foundation of the prophets, the second forerunner of the Coming of Christ, the glorious Elijah from on high sent down grace on Elisha to dispel infirmities and to cleanse lepers. Wherefore, he poureth forth healings upon them that honor him.
              Glory...Now and ever...[theotokion, tone 4]
              + The mystery hidden from before the ages and unknown even to the angels, through thee, O Theotokos, hath been revealed to those on earth: God incarnate in unconfused union, Who willingly accepted the Cross for our sake and, thereby raising up the first-formed man, hath saved our souls from death.

              From Matins:

              [troparion from Ode VIII, canon 1]
              + On Tabor Christ showed thee to be an initiate of the mystery of His divine incarnation, as thou wast an instiller of purity and a most divine offshoot of virginity, showing the unapproachable light of the Godhead in His body to thee that criest out: All ye works of the Lord, hymn and supremely exalt Him for all ages.

              [troparion from Ode IX, canon 1]
              + The Tishbite and Moses the God-seer beheld in revelation on Tabor what eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, and what hath not entered into the hearts of earth-born men: the Lord Almighty, incarnate.

              ------
              Translation of Reader Isaac E Lambertsen, copyright 1983 & 1987, published at the St John of Kronstadt Press.

              ---------------------------------
              Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
              Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • JiMiRoYaL
              Well, Moses died but Elijah never did. Not yet, anyway... And, of course, both are alive in Christ. Good to see you again, Anastasia! JiMi ...
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 4, 2007
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                Well, Moses died but Elijah never did. Not yet, anyway... And, of
                course, both are alive in Christ.

                Good to see you again, Anastasia!

                JiMi

                --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "ANATASIA THEODORIDIS"
                <anastasiatheo01@...> wrote:
                >
                > That last song you've supplied reminds me: with the feast of the
                Transfiguration approaching, it's good to ponder that upon Mt. Tabor,
                Jesus was revealed conversing with two dead saints.
                >
                > Anastasia
                >
                >
              • Randy Asburry
                *Dead* saints? Isn t that an oxymoron? ;-) I thought they were very much *alive* as Jesus was conversing with them! :-) (I m just playing. Please don t turn
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 4, 2007
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                  *Dead* saints? Isn't that an oxymoron? ;-) I thought they were very much
                  *alive* as Jesus was conversing with them! :-) (I'm just playing. Please
                  don't turn your infamous "hat pin" on me; save that for Pr. Weedon! :-))



                  Randy

                  + + + + +
                  Rev. Randy Asburry
                  Hope Lutheran Church
                  St. Louis, MO
                  <mailto:r.asburry@...> mailto:r.asburry@...

                  "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
                  conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity." (Augsburg
                  Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).



                  _____

                  From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ANATASIA
                  THEODORIDIS
                  Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 3:35 PM
                  To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] on the "Worship of the Saints" an
                  example



                  That last song you've supplied reminds me: with the feast of the
                  Transfiguration approaching, it's good to ponder that upon Mt. Tabor, Jesus
                  was revealed conversing with two dead saints.

                  Anastasia

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
                  To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                  t@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 8:01 PM
                  Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] on the "Worship of the Saints" an example

                  Today 07/20 on the Julian calendar the Holy Prophet Elijah / Elias is
                  commemorated. Here are a few selected liturgical texts.

                  From Little Vespers: [sticheron tone 1]:

                  + With the light of the divine radiance of the three-fold Sun, with purity
                  of mind and righteous judgment didst thou denounce the impious king as
                  transgressor of the Law and didst shut the heavens, and didst nurture the
                  widow and her son. Pray thou, O prophet, that our souls be saved.

                  From Great Vespers:

                  [at the Litia, sticheron, tone 4]
                  + O blessed prophet, thou wast a partaker of incorrupt union in God my
                  Savior; parting the Jordan by prayer, thou didst cross it as dry land, and
                  wast caught up on a fiery chariot to the heavens, leaving Elisha a double
                  measure of grace. Wherefore we beseech thee: though thou hast been caught up
                  in the body, yet sunder not thyself from us in spirit, and ever entreat the
                  Lord, that our souls be saved.

                  [at the aposticha, sticheron, tone 6] Glory...
                  + O prophet, preacher of Christ, thou dost never depart from the Throne of
                  Majesty, and ever intercedest for every one afflicted with sickness.
                  Ministering in the highest, glorified in all places, thou dost bless the
                  whole world. Ask thou for cleansing for our souls.

                  [troparion / apolytikion of the prophet, tone 4]
                  + The angel in the flesh, the foundation of the prophets, the second
                  forerunner of the Coming of Christ, the glorious Elijah from on high sent
                  down grace on Elisha to dispel infirmities and to cleanse lepers. Wherefore,
                  he poureth forth healings upon them that honor him.
                  Glory...Now and ever...[theotokion, tone 4]
                  + The mystery hidden from before the ages and unknown even to the angels,
                  through thee, O Theotokos, hath been revealed to those on earth: God
                  incarnate in unconfused union, Who willingly accepted the Cross for our sake
                  and, thereby raising up the first-formed man, hath saved our souls from
                  death.

                  From Matins:

                  [troparion from Ode VIII, canon 1]
                  + On Tabor Christ showed thee to be an initiate of the mystery of His divine
                  incarnation, as thou wast an instiller of purity and a most divine offshoot
                  of virginity, showing the unapproachable light of the Godhead in His body to
                  thee that criest out: All ye works of the Lord, hymn and supremely exalt Him
                  for all ages.

                  [troparion from Ode IX, canon 1]
                  + The Tishbite and Moses the God-seer beheld in revelation on Tabor what eye
                  hath not seen, nor ear heard, and what hath not entered into the hearts of
                  earth-born men: the Lord Almighty, incarnate.

                  ------
                  Translation of Reader Isaac E Lambertsen, copyright 1983 & 1987, published
                  at the St John of Kronstadt Press.

                  ---------------------------------
                  Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
                  Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  ----------------------------------------------------------

                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/933 - Release Date: 8/2/2007
                  2:22 PM

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • ANATASIA THEODORIDIS
                  You re both quite right. Not dead, and Elijah never was. And no saint is. So, okay, I won t poke you with ANY of my hat pins. (I have three: one with a
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 5, 2007
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                    You're both quite right. Not dead, and Elijah never was. And no saint is.

                    So, okay, I won't poke you with ANY of my hat pins. (I have three: one with a pear-shaped, pearl cap, one with a "ruby" and crystal cap, and my new, onyx pin. Pearl for a relatively benign, small prick. Ruby for drawing blood. Onyx for when I feel quite wicked.)

                    :-)
                    Anastasia


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Randy Asburry
                    To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 5:24 PM
                    Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEast] on the "Worship of the Saints" an example


                    *Dead* saints? Isn't that an oxymoron? ;-) I thought they were very much
                    *alive* as Jesus was conversing with them! :-) (I'm just playing. Please
                    don't turn your infamous "hat pin" on me; save that for Pr. Weedon! :-))

                    Randy

                    + + + + +
                    Rev. Randy Asburry
                    Hope Lutheran Church
                    St. Louis, MO
                    <mailto:r.asburry@...> mailto:r.asburry@...

                    "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
                    conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity." (Augsburg
                    Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).

                    _____

                    From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ANATASIA
                    THEODORIDIS
                    Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 3:35 PM
                    To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] on the "Worship of the Saints" an
                    example

                    That last song you've supplied reminds me: with the feast of the
                    Transfiguration approaching, it's good to ponder that upon Mt. Tabor, Jesus
                    was revealed conversing with two dead saints.

                    Anastasia

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
                    To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                    t@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 8:01 PM
                    Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] on the "Worship of the Saints" an example

                    Today 07/20 on the Julian calendar the Holy Prophet Elijah / Elias is
                    commemorated. Here are a few selected liturgical texts.

                    From Little Vespers: [sticheron tone 1]:

                    + With the light of the divine radiance of the three-fold Sun, with purity
                    of mind and righteous judgment didst thou denounce the impious king as
                    transgressor of the Law and didst shut the heavens, and didst nurture the
                    widow and her son. Pray thou, O prophet, that our souls be saved.

                    From Great Vespers:

                    [at the Litia, sticheron, tone 4]
                    + O blessed prophet, thou wast a partaker of incorrupt union in God my
                    Savior; parting the Jordan by prayer, thou didst cross it as dry land, and
                    wast caught up on a fiery chariot to the heavens, leaving Elisha a double
                    measure of grace. Wherefore we beseech thee: though thou hast been caught up
                    in the body, yet sunder not thyself from us in spirit, and ever entreat the
                    Lord, that our souls be saved.

                    [at the aposticha, sticheron, tone 6] Glory...
                    + O prophet, preacher of Christ, thou dost never depart from the Throne of
                    Majesty, and ever intercedest for every one afflicted with sickness.
                    Ministering in the highest, glorified in all places, thou dost bless the
                    whole world. Ask thou for cleansing for our souls.

                    [troparion / apolytikion of the prophet, tone 4]
                    + The angel in the flesh, the foundation of the prophets, the second
                    forerunner of the Coming of Christ, the glorious Elijah from on high sent
                    down grace on Elisha to dispel infirmities and to cleanse lepers. Wherefore,
                    he poureth forth healings upon them that honor him.
                    Glory...Now and ever...[theotokion, tone 4]
                    + The mystery hidden from before the ages and unknown even to the angels,
                    through thee, O Theotokos, hath been revealed to those on earth: God
                    incarnate in unconfused union, Who willingly accepted the Cross for our sake
                    and, thereby raising up the first-formed man, hath saved our souls from
                    death.

                    From Matins:

                    [troparion from Ode VIII, canon 1]
                    + On Tabor Christ showed thee to be an initiate of the mystery of His divine
                    incarnation, as thou wast an instiller of purity and a most divine offshoot
                    of virginity, showing the unapproachable light of the Godhead in His body to
                    thee that criest out: All ye works of the Lord, hymn and supremely exalt Him
                    for all ages.

                    [troparion from Ode IX, canon 1]
                    + The Tishbite and Moses the God-seer beheld in revelation on Tabor what eye
                    hath not seen, nor ear heard, and what hath not entered into the hearts of
                    earth-born men: the Lord Almighty, incarnate.

                    ------
                    Translation of Reader Isaac E Lambertsen, copyright 1983 & 1987, published
                    at the St John of Kronstadt Press.

                    ---------------------------------
                    Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
                    Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    ----------------------------------------------------------

                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                    Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/933 - Release Date: 8/2/2007
                    2:22 PM

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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