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Re: Comments?: Lutherans on the "Worship of the Saints"

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  • Edward Wolfe
    I find the discussion of the folks on The Blog of Concord interesting, not just because I once was Lutheran, but because all argumentation centers, for the
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 31, 2007
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      I find the discussion of the folks on ""The Blog of Concord"
      interesting, not just because I once was Lutheran, but because all
      argumentation centers, for the most part, on quotes from Martin
      Luther, and from Martin Chemnitz and their 16th century thinking.
      Every Father and every Saint, and the practices of the Ancient Faith
      (Orthodoxy) are filtered through their eyes and thinking.

      No matter that the Church has venerated and invoked the saints over
      the centuries -- those lately come have determined that their Fathers
      are wrong!

      Of course, this in one of the reasons for my own homecoming: the
      disrespect of the "great great great .... grandchildren" for their
      Fathers. It is for the Lutherans as though there was the Apostolic
      age, then everything went south until they appeared on the scene. And
      the "sons and daughters" of Luther are worse than he!

      For them "veneration" and "invocation" equal worship, whether it is
      true or not!

      Ezekiel+
    • BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
      Thank you! If I must choose between the opinion of Dr Martin Luther and Patriarch John the Golden-Tongued [inter alia], Dr Luther has already lost. Peter
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 31, 2007
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        Thank you! If I must choose between the opinion of Dr Martin Luther and Patriarch John the Golden-Tongued [inter alia], Dr Luther has already lost. Peter

        Edward Wolfe <ewolfe@...> wrote:
        No matter that the Church has venerated and invoked the saints over
        the centuries -- those lately come have determined that their Fathers
        are wrong!


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      • JiMiRoYaL
        Greetings in Christ, I sure think I remember you as a Lutheran pastor who used to post over on the Orthodox-Lutheran dialogue list. It appears that you are
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
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          Greetings in Christ,

          I sure think I remember you as a Lutheran pastor who used to post
          over on the Orthodox-Lutheran dialogue list. It appears that you are
          now Fr. Ezekiel - would these assumptions be correct?

          Glory to God in all things!

          JiMi

          --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Edward Wolfe"
          <ewolfe@...> wrote:
          >
          > I find the discussion of the folks on ""The Blog of Concord"
          > interesting, not just because I once was Lutheran, but because all
          > argumentation centers, for the most part, on quotes from Martin
          > Luther, and from Martin Chemnitz and their 16th century thinking.
          > Every Father and every Saint, and the practices of the Ancient Faith
          > (Orthodoxy) are filtered through their eyes and thinking.
          >
          > No matter that the Church has venerated and invoked the saints over
          > the centuries -- those lately come have determined that their
          Fathers
          > are wrong!
          >
          > Of course, this in one of the reasons for my own homecoming: the
          > disrespect of the "great great great .... grandchildren" for their
          > Fathers. It is for the Lutherans as though there was the Apostolic
          > age, then everything went south until they appeared on the scene.
          And
          > the "sons and daughters" of Luther are worse than he!
          >
          > For them "veneration" and "invocation" equal worship, whether it is
          > true or not!
          >
          > Ezekiel+
          >
        • BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
          Today 07/20 on the Julian calendar the Holy Prophet Elijah / Elias is commemorated. Here are a few selected liturgical texts. From Little Vespers: [sticheron
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
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            Today 07/20 on the Julian calendar the Holy Prophet Elijah / Elias is commemorated. Here are a few selected liturgical texts.

            From Little Vespers: [sticheron tone 1]:

            + With the light of the divine radiance of the three-fold Sun, with purity of mind and righteous judgment didst thou denounce the impious king as transgressor of the Law and didst shut the heavens, and didst nurture the widow and her son. Pray thou, O prophet, that our souls be saved.

            From Great Vespers:

            [at the Litia, sticheron, tone 4]
            + O blessed prophet, thou wast a partaker of incorrupt union in God my Savior; parting the Jordan by prayer, thou didst cross it as dry land, and wast caught up on a fiery chariot to the heavens, leaving Elisha a double measure of grace. Wherefore we beseech thee: though thou hast been caught up in the body, yet sunder not thyself from us in spirit, and ever entreat the Lord, that our souls be saved.

            [at the aposticha, sticheron, tone 6] Glory...
            + O prophet, preacher of Christ, thou dost never depart from the Throne of Majesty, and ever intercedest for every one afflicted with sickness. Ministering in the highest, glorified in all places, thou dost bless the whole world. Ask thou for cleansing for our souls.

            [troparion / apolytikion of the prophet, tone 4]
            + The angel in the flesh, the foundation of the prophets, the second forerunner of the Coming of Christ, the glorious Elijah from on high sent down grace on Elisha to dispel infirmities and to cleanse lepers. Wherefore, he poureth forth healings upon them that honor him.
            Glory...Now and ever...[theotokion, tone 4]
            + The mystery hidden from before the ages and unknown even to the angels, through thee, O Theotokos, hath been revealed to those on earth: God incarnate in unconfused union, Who willingly accepted the Cross for our sake and, thereby raising up the first-formed man, hath saved our souls from death.

            From Matins:

            [troparion from Ode VIII, canon 1]
            + On Tabor Christ showed thee to be an initiate of the mystery of His divine incarnation, as thou wast an instiller of purity and a most divine offshoot of virginity, showing the unapproachable light of the Godhead in His body to thee that criest out: All ye works of the Lord, hymn and supremely exalt Him for all ages.

            [troparion from Ode IX, canon 1]
            + The Tishbite and Moses the God-seer beheld in revelation on Tabor what eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, and what hath not entered into the hearts of earth-born men: the Lord Almighty, incarnate.

            ------
            Translation of Reader Isaac E Lambertsen, copyright 1983 & 1987, published at the St John of Kronstadt Press.


            ---------------------------------
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          • Edward Wolfe
            ... Jimi, You are correct in that I was part of the Orthodox-Lutheran list, and I was indeed a Lutheran pastor. However, I am not a priest. What God has in
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
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              --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "JiMiRoYaL" <jimi@...> wrote:
              >
              > Greetings in Christ,
              >
              > I sure think I remember you as a Lutheran pastor who used to post
              > over on the Orthodox-Lutheran dialogue list. It appears that you are
              > now Fr. Ezekiel - would these assumptions be correct?
              >
              > Glory to God in all things!
              >
              > JiMi

              >

              Jimi,

              You are correct in that I was part of the Orthodox-Lutheran list, and
              I was indeed a Lutheran pastor.

              However, I am not a priest. What God has in store for me in this
              regard is not clear yet! :)

              At this point, we are active in our parish, living as fully as
              Orthodox as we can, and I do woodworking (turning, scrollwork and
              other things) and work fulltime at Rockler Woodworking and Hardware.

              I'm also doing some work on home inconostases, too.

              Ezekiel+
            • ANATASIA THEODORIDIS
              That last song you ve supplied reminds me: with the feast of the Transfiguration approaching, it s good to ponder that upon Mt. Tabor, Jesus was revealed
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 4, 2007
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                That last song you've supplied reminds me: with the feast of the Transfiguration approaching, it's good to ponder that upon Mt. Tabor, Jesus was revealed conversing with two dead saints.

                Anastasia


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
                To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 8:01 PM
                Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] on the "Worship of the Saints" an example


                Today 07/20 on the Julian calendar the Holy Prophet Elijah / Elias is commemorated. Here are a few selected liturgical texts.

                From Little Vespers: [sticheron tone 1]:

                + With the light of the divine radiance of the three-fold Sun, with purity of mind and righteous judgment didst thou denounce the impious king as transgressor of the Law and didst shut the heavens, and didst nurture the widow and her son. Pray thou, O prophet, that our souls be saved.

                From Great Vespers:

                [at the Litia, sticheron, tone 4]
                + O blessed prophet, thou wast a partaker of incorrupt union in God my Savior; parting the Jordan by prayer, thou didst cross it as dry land, and wast caught up on a fiery chariot to the heavens, leaving Elisha a double measure of grace. Wherefore we beseech thee: though thou hast been caught up in the body, yet sunder not thyself from us in spirit, and ever entreat the Lord, that our souls be saved.

                [at the aposticha, sticheron, tone 6] Glory...
                + O prophet, preacher of Christ, thou dost never depart from the Throne of Majesty, and ever intercedest for every one afflicted with sickness. Ministering in the highest, glorified in all places, thou dost bless the whole world. Ask thou for cleansing for our souls.

                [troparion / apolytikion of the prophet, tone 4]
                + The angel in the flesh, the foundation of the prophets, the second forerunner of the Coming of Christ, the glorious Elijah from on high sent down grace on Elisha to dispel infirmities and to cleanse lepers. Wherefore, he poureth forth healings upon them that honor him.
                Glory...Now and ever...[theotokion, tone 4]
                + The mystery hidden from before the ages and unknown even to the angels, through thee, O Theotokos, hath been revealed to those on earth: God incarnate in unconfused union, Who willingly accepted the Cross for our sake and, thereby raising up the first-formed man, hath saved our souls from death.

                From Matins:

                [troparion from Ode VIII, canon 1]
                + On Tabor Christ showed thee to be an initiate of the mystery of His divine incarnation, as thou wast an instiller of purity and a most divine offshoot of virginity, showing the unapproachable light of the Godhead in His body to thee that criest out: All ye works of the Lord, hymn and supremely exalt Him for all ages.

                [troparion from Ode IX, canon 1]
                + The Tishbite and Moses the God-seer beheld in revelation on Tabor what eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, and what hath not entered into the hearts of earth-born men: the Lord Almighty, incarnate.

                ------
                Translation of Reader Isaac E Lambertsen, copyright 1983 & 1987, published at the St John of Kronstadt Press.

                ---------------------------------
                Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
                Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • JiMiRoYaL
                Well, Moses died but Elijah never did. Not yet, anyway... And, of course, both are alive in Christ. Good to see you again, Anastasia! JiMi ...
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 4, 2007
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                  Well, Moses died but Elijah never did. Not yet, anyway... And, of
                  course, both are alive in Christ.

                  Good to see you again, Anastasia!

                  JiMi

                  --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "ANATASIA THEODORIDIS"
                  <anastasiatheo01@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > That last song you've supplied reminds me: with the feast of the
                  Transfiguration approaching, it's good to ponder that upon Mt. Tabor,
                  Jesus was revealed conversing with two dead saints.
                  >
                  > Anastasia
                  >
                  >
                • Randy Asburry
                  *Dead* saints? Isn t that an oxymoron? ;-) I thought they were very much *alive* as Jesus was conversing with them! :-) (I m just playing. Please don t turn
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 4, 2007
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                    *Dead* saints? Isn't that an oxymoron? ;-) I thought they were very much
                    *alive* as Jesus was conversing with them! :-) (I'm just playing. Please
                    don't turn your infamous "hat pin" on me; save that for Pr. Weedon! :-))



                    Randy

                    + + + + +
                    Rev. Randy Asburry
                    Hope Lutheran Church
                    St. Louis, MO
                    <mailto:r.asburry@...> mailto:r.asburry@...

                    "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
                    conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity." (Augsburg
                    Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).



                    _____

                    From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ANATASIA
                    THEODORIDIS
                    Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 3:35 PM
                    To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] on the "Worship of the Saints" an
                    example



                    That last song you've supplied reminds me: with the feast of the
                    Transfiguration approaching, it's good to ponder that upon Mt. Tabor, Jesus
                    was revealed conversing with two dead saints.

                    Anastasia

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
                    To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                    t@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 8:01 PM
                    Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] on the "Worship of the Saints" an example

                    Today 07/20 on the Julian calendar the Holy Prophet Elijah / Elias is
                    commemorated. Here are a few selected liturgical texts.

                    From Little Vespers: [sticheron tone 1]:

                    + With the light of the divine radiance of the three-fold Sun, with purity
                    of mind and righteous judgment didst thou denounce the impious king as
                    transgressor of the Law and didst shut the heavens, and didst nurture the
                    widow and her son. Pray thou, O prophet, that our souls be saved.

                    From Great Vespers:

                    [at the Litia, sticheron, tone 4]
                    + O blessed prophet, thou wast a partaker of incorrupt union in God my
                    Savior; parting the Jordan by prayer, thou didst cross it as dry land, and
                    wast caught up on a fiery chariot to the heavens, leaving Elisha a double
                    measure of grace. Wherefore we beseech thee: though thou hast been caught up
                    in the body, yet sunder not thyself from us in spirit, and ever entreat the
                    Lord, that our souls be saved.

                    [at the aposticha, sticheron, tone 6] Glory...
                    + O prophet, preacher of Christ, thou dost never depart from the Throne of
                    Majesty, and ever intercedest for every one afflicted with sickness.
                    Ministering in the highest, glorified in all places, thou dost bless the
                    whole world. Ask thou for cleansing for our souls.

                    [troparion / apolytikion of the prophet, tone 4]
                    + The angel in the flesh, the foundation of the prophets, the second
                    forerunner of the Coming of Christ, the glorious Elijah from on high sent
                    down grace on Elisha to dispel infirmities and to cleanse lepers. Wherefore,
                    he poureth forth healings upon them that honor him.
                    Glory...Now and ever...[theotokion, tone 4]
                    + The mystery hidden from before the ages and unknown even to the angels,
                    through thee, O Theotokos, hath been revealed to those on earth: God
                    incarnate in unconfused union, Who willingly accepted the Cross for our sake
                    and, thereby raising up the first-formed man, hath saved our souls from
                    death.

                    From Matins:

                    [troparion from Ode VIII, canon 1]
                    + On Tabor Christ showed thee to be an initiate of the mystery of His divine
                    incarnation, as thou wast an instiller of purity and a most divine offshoot
                    of virginity, showing the unapproachable light of the Godhead in His body to
                    thee that criest out: All ye works of the Lord, hymn and supremely exalt Him
                    for all ages.

                    [troparion from Ode IX, canon 1]
                    + The Tishbite and Moses the God-seer beheld in revelation on Tabor what eye
                    hath not seen, nor ear heard, and what hath not entered into the hearts of
                    earth-born men: the Lord Almighty, incarnate.

                    ------
                    Translation of Reader Isaac E Lambertsen, copyright 1983 & 1987, published
                    at the St John of Kronstadt Press.

                    ---------------------------------
                    Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
                    Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    ----------------------------------------------------------

                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                    Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/933 - Release Date: 8/2/2007
                    2:22 PM

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • ANATASIA THEODORIDIS
                    You re both quite right. Not dead, and Elijah never was. And no saint is. So, okay, I won t poke you with ANY of my hat pins. (I have three: one with a
                    Message 9 of 15 , Aug 5, 2007
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                      You're both quite right. Not dead, and Elijah never was. And no saint is.

                      So, okay, I won't poke you with ANY of my hat pins. (I have three: one with a pear-shaped, pearl cap, one with a "ruby" and crystal cap, and my new, onyx pin. Pearl for a relatively benign, small prick. Ruby for drawing blood. Onyx for when I feel quite wicked.)

                      :-)
                      Anastasia


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Randy Asburry
                      To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 5:24 PM
                      Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEast] on the "Worship of the Saints" an example


                      *Dead* saints? Isn't that an oxymoron? ;-) I thought they were very much
                      *alive* as Jesus was conversing with them! :-) (I'm just playing. Please
                      don't turn your infamous "hat pin" on me; save that for Pr. Weedon! :-))

                      Randy

                      + + + + +
                      Rev. Randy Asburry
                      Hope Lutheran Church
                      St. Louis, MO
                      <mailto:r.asburry@...> mailto:r.asburry@...

                      "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
                      conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity." (Augsburg
                      Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).

                      _____

                      From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ANATASIA
                      THEODORIDIS
                      Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 3:35 PM
                      To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] on the "Worship of the Saints" an
                      example

                      That last song you've supplied reminds me: with the feast of the
                      Transfiguration approaching, it's good to ponder that upon Mt. Tabor, Jesus
                      was revealed conversing with two dead saints.

                      Anastasia

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
                      To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                      t@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 8:01 PM
                      Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] on the "Worship of the Saints" an example

                      Today 07/20 on the Julian calendar the Holy Prophet Elijah / Elias is
                      commemorated. Here are a few selected liturgical texts.

                      From Little Vespers: [sticheron tone 1]:

                      + With the light of the divine radiance of the three-fold Sun, with purity
                      of mind and righteous judgment didst thou denounce the impious king as
                      transgressor of the Law and didst shut the heavens, and didst nurture the
                      widow and her son. Pray thou, O prophet, that our souls be saved.

                      From Great Vespers:

                      [at the Litia, sticheron, tone 4]
                      + O blessed prophet, thou wast a partaker of incorrupt union in God my
                      Savior; parting the Jordan by prayer, thou didst cross it as dry land, and
                      wast caught up on a fiery chariot to the heavens, leaving Elisha a double
                      measure of grace. Wherefore we beseech thee: though thou hast been caught up
                      in the body, yet sunder not thyself from us in spirit, and ever entreat the
                      Lord, that our souls be saved.

                      [at the aposticha, sticheron, tone 6] Glory...
                      + O prophet, preacher of Christ, thou dost never depart from the Throne of
                      Majesty, and ever intercedest for every one afflicted with sickness.
                      Ministering in the highest, glorified in all places, thou dost bless the
                      whole world. Ask thou for cleansing for our souls.

                      [troparion / apolytikion of the prophet, tone 4]
                      + The angel in the flesh, the foundation of the prophets, the second
                      forerunner of the Coming of Christ, the glorious Elijah from on high sent
                      down grace on Elisha to dispel infirmities and to cleanse lepers. Wherefore,
                      he poureth forth healings upon them that honor him.
                      Glory...Now and ever...[theotokion, tone 4]
                      + The mystery hidden from before the ages and unknown even to the angels,
                      through thee, O Theotokos, hath been revealed to those on earth: God
                      incarnate in unconfused union, Who willingly accepted the Cross for our sake
                      and, thereby raising up the first-formed man, hath saved our souls from
                      death.

                      From Matins:

                      [troparion from Ode VIII, canon 1]
                      + On Tabor Christ showed thee to be an initiate of the mystery of His divine
                      incarnation, as thou wast an instiller of purity and a most divine offshoot
                      of virginity, showing the unapproachable light of the Godhead in His body to
                      thee that criest out: All ye works of the Lord, hymn and supremely exalt Him
                      for all ages.

                      [troparion from Ode IX, canon 1]
                      + The Tishbite and Moses the God-seer beheld in revelation on Tabor what eye
                      hath not seen, nor ear heard, and what hath not entered into the hearts of
                      earth-born men: the Lord Almighty, incarnate.

                      ------
                      Translation of Reader Isaac E Lambertsen, copyright 1983 & 1987, published
                      at the St John of Kronstadt Press.

                      ---------------------------------
                      Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
                      Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      ----------------------------------------------------------

                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                      Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                      Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/933 - Release Date: 8/2/2007
                      2:22 PM

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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