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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Comments?: Lutherans on the "Worship of the Saints"

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  • Christopher Orr
    Feel free to use it. I m giving away some of my thoughts for the Colloquium, but... I agree that the response is more in contrast to the Roman position.
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 27, 2007
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      Feel free to use it. I'm giving away some of my thoughts for the
      Colloquium, but...

      I agree that the response is more in contrast to the Roman position.
      Specifically, the teaching regarding the supererogatory merits of the saints
      (BTW, certain Buddhists have a similar concept of a merit 'bank') and the
      fact that by honoring, invoking or praying to the saints the devout can
      access their excess merit and 'earn' a bit of their salvation. This
      accounting model, as has often been discussed, is either not present or not
      present in any way beyond the metaphorical in the Orthodox Church.

      I, too, have thought it odd that such 'difficult' and 'easily misunderstood'
      doctrines as sola gratia and sola fide, as well as trinitarian and
      christological dogma, can be parsed and nuanced, but that praying to the
      saints for their prayers and the fact that it arises from their union with
      God and not through their own, autonomous 'holiness' or 'power' is too
      confusing.

      Christopher


      On 7/26/07, Randy Asburry <r.asburry@...> wrote:
      >
      > ecclesiological Zwinglianism,
      >
      > Great phrase, Chris! I love it! Consider it swiped and mentally filed for
      > future use! :-)
      >
      > the other thing that struck me was the lack of differentiation between
      > invocation, honor, intercession and worship in Lutheran critiques of
      > prayer
      > to the saints. They all seem to be made synonyms of each other therefore
      > equating worship of God with everything else done relative to saints apart
      > from telling their stories.
      >
      > Indeed! I think it's also a matter of not differentiating between the
      > Western (i.e. Roman) and the Eastern views of the saints, especially vis a
      > vis "invoking" them. The Lutheran Confessions did respond/react to certain
      > *abuses* in the Roman Church of the day, but I don't see them answering
      > the
      > views of the "Greek churches," as the Confessions refer to the Eastern
      > Churches. In fact, I find it quite intriguing that quite often the
      > Lutheran
      > Confessions appeal to the "Greek churches" and even Greek/Eastern Fathers
      > to
      > support their case against the papal/Roman abuses. So, context is key.
      >
      > Worship due only to God is one thing (latreia) and honor that
      > is due to His saints (doulia) is another and ne'er the twain shall meet.
      >
      > You are correct that our Western languages do not typically differentiate
      > between these two things. In the Lutheran mindset, "invoke" is "invoke" in
      > any way, shape, and form. It's very odd conundrum, especially since
      > distinctions are often made in other areas of teaching and practice.
      >
      > + + + + +
      > Rev. Randy Asburry
      > Hope Lutheran Church
      > St. Louis, MO
      > <mailto:r.asburry@... <r.asburry%40sbcglobal.net>> mailto:
      > r.asburry@... <r.asburry%40sbcglobal.net>
      >
      > "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
      > conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity." (Augsburg
      > Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Edward Wolfe
      I find the discussion of the folks on The Blog of Concord interesting, not just because I once was Lutheran, but because all argumentation centers, for the
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 31, 2007
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        I find the discussion of the folks on ""The Blog of Concord"
        interesting, not just because I once was Lutheran, but because all
        argumentation centers, for the most part, on quotes from Martin
        Luther, and from Martin Chemnitz and their 16th century thinking.
        Every Father and every Saint, and the practices of the Ancient Faith
        (Orthodoxy) are filtered through their eyes and thinking.

        No matter that the Church has venerated and invoked the saints over
        the centuries -- those lately come have determined that their Fathers
        are wrong!

        Of course, this in one of the reasons for my own homecoming: the
        disrespect of the "great great great .... grandchildren" for their
        Fathers. It is for the Lutherans as though there was the Apostolic
        age, then everything went south until they appeared on the scene. And
        the "sons and daughters" of Luther are worse than he!

        For them "veneration" and "invocation" equal worship, whether it is
        true or not!

        Ezekiel+
      • BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
        Thank you! If I must choose between the opinion of Dr Martin Luther and Patriarch John the Golden-Tongued [inter alia], Dr Luther has already lost. Peter
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 31, 2007
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          Thank you! If I must choose between the opinion of Dr Martin Luther and Patriarch John the Golden-Tongued [inter alia], Dr Luther has already lost. Peter

          Edward Wolfe <ewolfe@...> wrote:
          No matter that the Church has venerated and invoked the saints over
          the centuries -- those lately come have determined that their Fathers
          are wrong!


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        • JiMiRoYaL
          Greetings in Christ, I sure think I remember you as a Lutheran pastor who used to post over on the Orthodox-Lutheran dialogue list. It appears that you are
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
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            Greetings in Christ,

            I sure think I remember you as a Lutheran pastor who used to post
            over on the Orthodox-Lutheran dialogue list. It appears that you are
            now Fr. Ezekiel - would these assumptions be correct?

            Glory to God in all things!

            JiMi

            --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Edward Wolfe"
            <ewolfe@...> wrote:
            >
            > I find the discussion of the folks on ""The Blog of Concord"
            > interesting, not just because I once was Lutheran, but because all
            > argumentation centers, for the most part, on quotes from Martin
            > Luther, and from Martin Chemnitz and their 16th century thinking.
            > Every Father and every Saint, and the practices of the Ancient Faith
            > (Orthodoxy) are filtered through their eyes and thinking.
            >
            > No matter that the Church has venerated and invoked the saints over
            > the centuries -- those lately come have determined that their
            Fathers
            > are wrong!
            >
            > Of course, this in one of the reasons for my own homecoming: the
            > disrespect of the "great great great .... grandchildren" for their
            > Fathers. It is for the Lutherans as though there was the Apostolic
            > age, then everything went south until they appeared on the scene.
            And
            > the "sons and daughters" of Luther are worse than he!
            >
            > For them "veneration" and "invocation" equal worship, whether it is
            > true or not!
            >
            > Ezekiel+
            >
          • BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
            Today 07/20 on the Julian calendar the Holy Prophet Elijah / Elias is commemorated. Here are a few selected liturgical texts. From Little Vespers: [sticheron
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
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              Today 07/20 on the Julian calendar the Holy Prophet Elijah / Elias is commemorated. Here are a few selected liturgical texts.

              From Little Vespers: [sticheron tone 1]:

              + With the light of the divine radiance of the three-fold Sun, with purity of mind and righteous judgment didst thou denounce the impious king as transgressor of the Law and didst shut the heavens, and didst nurture the widow and her son. Pray thou, O prophet, that our souls be saved.

              From Great Vespers:

              [at the Litia, sticheron, tone 4]
              + O blessed prophet, thou wast a partaker of incorrupt union in God my Savior; parting the Jordan by prayer, thou didst cross it as dry land, and wast caught up on a fiery chariot to the heavens, leaving Elisha a double measure of grace. Wherefore we beseech thee: though thou hast been caught up in the body, yet sunder not thyself from us in spirit, and ever entreat the Lord, that our souls be saved.

              [at the aposticha, sticheron, tone 6] Glory...
              + O prophet, preacher of Christ, thou dost never depart from the Throne of Majesty, and ever intercedest for every one afflicted with sickness. Ministering in the highest, glorified in all places, thou dost bless the whole world. Ask thou for cleansing for our souls.

              [troparion / apolytikion of the prophet, tone 4]
              + The angel in the flesh, the foundation of the prophets, the second forerunner of the Coming of Christ, the glorious Elijah from on high sent down grace on Elisha to dispel infirmities and to cleanse lepers. Wherefore, he poureth forth healings upon them that honor him.
              Glory...Now and ever...[theotokion, tone 4]
              + The mystery hidden from before the ages and unknown even to the angels, through thee, O Theotokos, hath been revealed to those on earth: God incarnate in unconfused union, Who willingly accepted the Cross for our sake and, thereby raising up the first-formed man, hath saved our souls from death.

              From Matins:

              [troparion from Ode VIII, canon 1]
              + On Tabor Christ showed thee to be an initiate of the mystery of His divine incarnation, as thou wast an instiller of purity and a most divine offshoot of virginity, showing the unapproachable light of the Godhead in His body to thee that criest out: All ye works of the Lord, hymn and supremely exalt Him for all ages.

              [troparion from Ode IX, canon 1]
              + The Tishbite and Moses the God-seer beheld in revelation on Tabor what eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, and what hath not entered into the hearts of earth-born men: the Lord Almighty, incarnate.

              ------
              Translation of Reader Isaac E Lambertsen, copyright 1983 & 1987, published at the St John of Kronstadt Press.


              ---------------------------------
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            • Edward Wolfe
              ... Jimi, You are correct in that I was part of the Orthodox-Lutheran list, and I was indeed a Lutheran pastor. However, I am not a priest. What God has in
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
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                --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "JiMiRoYaL" <jimi@...> wrote:
                >
                > Greetings in Christ,
                >
                > I sure think I remember you as a Lutheran pastor who used to post
                > over on the Orthodox-Lutheran dialogue list. It appears that you are
                > now Fr. Ezekiel - would these assumptions be correct?
                >
                > Glory to God in all things!
                >
                > JiMi

                >

                Jimi,

                You are correct in that I was part of the Orthodox-Lutheran list, and
                I was indeed a Lutheran pastor.

                However, I am not a priest. What God has in store for me in this
                regard is not clear yet! :)

                At this point, we are active in our parish, living as fully as
                Orthodox as we can, and I do woodworking (turning, scrollwork and
                other things) and work fulltime at Rockler Woodworking and Hardware.

                I'm also doing some work on home inconostases, too.

                Ezekiel+
              • ANATASIA THEODORIDIS
                That last song you ve supplied reminds me: with the feast of the Transfiguration approaching, it s good to ponder that upon Mt. Tabor, Jesus was revealed
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 4, 2007
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                  That last song you've supplied reminds me: with the feast of the Transfiguration approaching, it's good to ponder that upon Mt. Tabor, Jesus was revealed conversing with two dead saints.

                  Anastasia


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
                  To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 8:01 PM
                  Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] on the "Worship of the Saints" an example


                  Today 07/20 on the Julian calendar the Holy Prophet Elijah / Elias is commemorated. Here are a few selected liturgical texts.

                  From Little Vespers: [sticheron tone 1]:

                  + With the light of the divine radiance of the three-fold Sun, with purity of mind and righteous judgment didst thou denounce the impious king as transgressor of the Law and didst shut the heavens, and didst nurture the widow and her son. Pray thou, O prophet, that our souls be saved.

                  From Great Vespers:

                  [at the Litia, sticheron, tone 4]
                  + O blessed prophet, thou wast a partaker of incorrupt union in God my Savior; parting the Jordan by prayer, thou didst cross it as dry land, and wast caught up on a fiery chariot to the heavens, leaving Elisha a double measure of grace. Wherefore we beseech thee: though thou hast been caught up in the body, yet sunder not thyself from us in spirit, and ever entreat the Lord, that our souls be saved.

                  [at the aposticha, sticheron, tone 6] Glory...
                  + O prophet, preacher of Christ, thou dost never depart from the Throne of Majesty, and ever intercedest for every one afflicted with sickness. Ministering in the highest, glorified in all places, thou dost bless the whole world. Ask thou for cleansing for our souls.

                  [troparion / apolytikion of the prophet, tone 4]
                  + The angel in the flesh, the foundation of the prophets, the second forerunner of the Coming of Christ, the glorious Elijah from on high sent down grace on Elisha to dispel infirmities and to cleanse lepers. Wherefore, he poureth forth healings upon them that honor him.
                  Glory...Now and ever...[theotokion, tone 4]
                  + The mystery hidden from before the ages and unknown even to the angels, through thee, O Theotokos, hath been revealed to those on earth: God incarnate in unconfused union, Who willingly accepted the Cross for our sake and, thereby raising up the first-formed man, hath saved our souls from death.

                  From Matins:

                  [troparion from Ode VIII, canon 1]
                  + On Tabor Christ showed thee to be an initiate of the mystery of His divine incarnation, as thou wast an instiller of purity and a most divine offshoot of virginity, showing the unapproachable light of the Godhead in His body to thee that criest out: All ye works of the Lord, hymn and supremely exalt Him for all ages.

                  [troparion from Ode IX, canon 1]
                  + The Tishbite and Moses the God-seer beheld in revelation on Tabor what eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, and what hath not entered into the hearts of earth-born men: the Lord Almighty, incarnate.

                  ------
                  Translation of Reader Isaac E Lambertsen, copyright 1983 & 1987, published at the St John of Kronstadt Press.

                  ---------------------------------
                  Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
                  Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                • JiMiRoYaL
                  Well, Moses died but Elijah never did. Not yet, anyway... And, of course, both are alive in Christ. Good to see you again, Anastasia! JiMi ...
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 4, 2007
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                    Well, Moses died but Elijah never did. Not yet, anyway... And, of
                    course, both are alive in Christ.

                    Good to see you again, Anastasia!

                    JiMi

                    --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "ANATASIA THEODORIDIS"
                    <anastasiatheo01@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > That last song you've supplied reminds me: with the feast of the
                    Transfiguration approaching, it's good to ponder that upon Mt. Tabor,
                    Jesus was revealed conversing with two dead saints.
                    >
                    > Anastasia
                    >
                    >
                  • Randy Asburry
                    *Dead* saints? Isn t that an oxymoron? ;-) I thought they were very much *alive* as Jesus was conversing with them! :-) (I m just playing. Please don t turn
                    Message 9 of 15 , Aug 4, 2007
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                      *Dead* saints? Isn't that an oxymoron? ;-) I thought they were very much
                      *alive* as Jesus was conversing with them! :-) (I'm just playing. Please
                      don't turn your infamous "hat pin" on me; save that for Pr. Weedon! :-))



                      Randy

                      + + + + +
                      Rev. Randy Asburry
                      Hope Lutheran Church
                      St. Louis, MO
                      <mailto:r.asburry@...> mailto:r.asburry@...

                      "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
                      conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity." (Augsburg
                      Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).



                      _____

                      From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ANATASIA
                      THEODORIDIS
                      Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 3:35 PM
                      To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] on the "Worship of the Saints" an
                      example



                      That last song you've supplied reminds me: with the feast of the
                      Transfiguration approaching, it's good to ponder that upon Mt. Tabor, Jesus
                      was revealed conversing with two dead saints.

                      Anastasia

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
                      To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                      t@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 8:01 PM
                      Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] on the "Worship of the Saints" an example

                      Today 07/20 on the Julian calendar the Holy Prophet Elijah / Elias is
                      commemorated. Here are a few selected liturgical texts.

                      From Little Vespers: [sticheron tone 1]:

                      + With the light of the divine radiance of the three-fold Sun, with purity
                      of mind and righteous judgment didst thou denounce the impious king as
                      transgressor of the Law and didst shut the heavens, and didst nurture the
                      widow and her son. Pray thou, O prophet, that our souls be saved.

                      From Great Vespers:

                      [at the Litia, sticheron, tone 4]
                      + O blessed prophet, thou wast a partaker of incorrupt union in God my
                      Savior; parting the Jordan by prayer, thou didst cross it as dry land, and
                      wast caught up on a fiery chariot to the heavens, leaving Elisha a double
                      measure of grace. Wherefore we beseech thee: though thou hast been caught up
                      in the body, yet sunder not thyself from us in spirit, and ever entreat the
                      Lord, that our souls be saved.

                      [at the aposticha, sticheron, tone 6] Glory...
                      + O prophet, preacher of Christ, thou dost never depart from the Throne of
                      Majesty, and ever intercedest for every one afflicted with sickness.
                      Ministering in the highest, glorified in all places, thou dost bless the
                      whole world. Ask thou for cleansing for our souls.

                      [troparion / apolytikion of the prophet, tone 4]
                      + The angel in the flesh, the foundation of the prophets, the second
                      forerunner of the Coming of Christ, the glorious Elijah from on high sent
                      down grace on Elisha to dispel infirmities and to cleanse lepers. Wherefore,
                      he poureth forth healings upon them that honor him.
                      Glory...Now and ever...[theotokion, tone 4]
                      + The mystery hidden from before the ages and unknown even to the angels,
                      through thee, O Theotokos, hath been revealed to those on earth: God
                      incarnate in unconfused union, Who willingly accepted the Cross for our sake
                      and, thereby raising up the first-formed man, hath saved our souls from
                      death.

                      From Matins:

                      [troparion from Ode VIII, canon 1]
                      + On Tabor Christ showed thee to be an initiate of the mystery of His divine
                      incarnation, as thou wast an instiller of purity and a most divine offshoot
                      of virginity, showing the unapproachable light of the Godhead in His body to
                      thee that criest out: All ye works of the Lord, hymn and supremely exalt Him
                      for all ages.

                      [troparion from Ode IX, canon 1]
                      + The Tishbite and Moses the God-seer beheld in revelation on Tabor what eye
                      hath not seen, nor ear heard, and what hath not entered into the hearts of
                      earth-born men: the Lord Almighty, incarnate.

                      ------
                      Translation of Reader Isaac E Lambertsen, copyright 1983 & 1987, published
                      at the St John of Kronstadt Press.

                      ---------------------------------
                      Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
                      Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                      2:22 PM

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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • ANATASIA THEODORIDIS
                      You re both quite right. Not dead, and Elijah never was. And no saint is. So, okay, I won t poke you with ANY of my hat pins. (I have three: one with a
                      Message 10 of 15 , Aug 5, 2007
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                        You're both quite right. Not dead, and Elijah never was. And no saint is.

                        So, okay, I won't poke you with ANY of my hat pins. (I have three: one with a pear-shaped, pearl cap, one with a "ruby" and crystal cap, and my new, onyx pin. Pearl for a relatively benign, small prick. Ruby for drawing blood. Onyx for when I feel quite wicked.)

                        :-)
                        Anastasia


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Randy Asburry
                        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 5:24 PM
                        Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEast] on the "Worship of the Saints" an example


                        *Dead* saints? Isn't that an oxymoron? ;-) I thought they were very much
                        *alive* as Jesus was conversing with them! :-) (I'm just playing. Please
                        don't turn your infamous "hat pin" on me; save that for Pr. Weedon! :-))

                        Randy

                        + + + + +
                        Rev. Randy Asburry
                        Hope Lutheran Church
                        St. Louis, MO
                        <mailto:r.asburry@...> mailto:r.asburry@...

                        "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
                        conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity." (Augsburg
                        Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).

                        _____

                        From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ANATASIA
                        THEODORIDIS
                        Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 3:35 PM
                        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] on the "Worship of the Saints" an
                        example

                        That last song you've supplied reminds me: with the feast of the
                        Transfiguration approaching, it's good to ponder that upon Mt. Tabor, Jesus
                        was revealed conversing with two dead saints.

                        Anastasia

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
                        To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                        t@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 8:01 PM
                        Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] on the "Worship of the Saints" an example

                        Today 07/20 on the Julian calendar the Holy Prophet Elijah / Elias is
                        commemorated. Here are a few selected liturgical texts.

                        From Little Vespers: [sticheron tone 1]:

                        + With the light of the divine radiance of the three-fold Sun, with purity
                        of mind and righteous judgment didst thou denounce the impious king as
                        transgressor of the Law and didst shut the heavens, and didst nurture the
                        widow and her son. Pray thou, O prophet, that our souls be saved.

                        From Great Vespers:

                        [at the Litia, sticheron, tone 4]
                        + O blessed prophet, thou wast a partaker of incorrupt union in God my
                        Savior; parting the Jordan by prayer, thou didst cross it as dry land, and
                        wast caught up on a fiery chariot to the heavens, leaving Elisha a double
                        measure of grace. Wherefore we beseech thee: though thou hast been caught up
                        in the body, yet sunder not thyself from us in spirit, and ever entreat the
                        Lord, that our souls be saved.

                        [at the aposticha, sticheron, tone 6] Glory...
                        + O prophet, preacher of Christ, thou dost never depart from the Throne of
                        Majesty, and ever intercedest for every one afflicted with sickness.
                        Ministering in the highest, glorified in all places, thou dost bless the
                        whole world. Ask thou for cleansing for our souls.

                        [troparion / apolytikion of the prophet, tone 4]
                        + The angel in the flesh, the foundation of the prophets, the second
                        forerunner of the Coming of Christ, the glorious Elijah from on high sent
                        down grace on Elisha to dispel infirmities and to cleanse lepers. Wherefore,
                        he poureth forth healings upon them that honor him.
                        Glory...Now and ever...[theotokion, tone 4]
                        + The mystery hidden from before the ages and unknown even to the angels,
                        through thee, O Theotokos, hath been revealed to those on earth: God
                        incarnate in unconfused union, Who willingly accepted the Cross for our sake
                        and, thereby raising up the first-formed man, hath saved our souls from
                        death.

                        From Matins:

                        [troparion from Ode VIII, canon 1]
                        + On Tabor Christ showed thee to be an initiate of the mystery of His divine
                        incarnation, as thou wast an instiller of purity and a most divine offshoot
                        of virginity, showing the unapproachable light of the Godhead in His body to
                        thee that criest out: All ye works of the Lord, hymn and supremely exalt Him
                        for all ages.

                        [troparion from Ode IX, canon 1]
                        + The Tishbite and Moses the God-seer beheld in revelation on Tabor what eye
                        hath not seen, nor ear heard, and what hath not entered into the hearts of
                        earth-born men: the Lord Almighty, incarnate.

                        ------
                        Translation of Reader Isaac E Lambertsen, copyright 1983 & 1987, published
                        at the St John of Kronstadt Press.

                        ---------------------------------
                        Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
                        Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        ----------------------------------------------------------

                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                        Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                        Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/933 - Release Date: 8/2/2007
                        2:22 PM

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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