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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Comments?: Lutherans on the "Worship of the Saints"

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  • Christopher Orr
    Well put. I have been thinking about whether one believes that the Church is truly the Body of Christ is the ecclesiological version of whether one believes
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 26, 2007
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      Well put. I have been thinking about whether one believes that the Church
      is truly the Body of Christ is the ecclesiological version of whether one
      believes that the bread and wine are truly changed into the Body and blood
      of Christ. Is the Church really, or only spiritually or symbolically the
      Body of Christ? If one does not fall into ecclesiological Zwinglianism,
      then praying to the saints is, in fact, praying to Christ. God is wonderful
      in his saints, after all, according to the Psalmist. They can hear us and
      effectively pray for only insofar as they are united to Christ and are a
      part of his body in the same way that the Apostles were able to do other
      things appropriate only to God such as raise the dead, heal, and perform
      other miracles.

      the other thing that struck me was the lack of differentiation between
      invocation, honor, intercession and worship in Lutheran critiques of prayer
      to the saints. They all seem to be made synonyms of each other therefore
      equating worship of God with everything else done relative to saints apart
      from telling their stories. Perhaps Latin and German, as well as English,
      do not convey the differences in terminology used as well as the Greek and
      Slavonic do. Worship due only to God is one thing (latreia) and honor that
      is due to His saints (doulia) is another and ne'er the twain shall meet.
      These terms are clear in Orthodox language and practice, but it is often
      feared (assumed) that we don't 'really mean it', that, in fact, we are
      secretly giving worship (latreia) to the saints and just not telling the
      Protestants or they'd get upset and not convert, or that we simply don't
      realize we're bending the knee to Baal no matter what we say - evil or
      stupid.

      Christopher


      On 7/26/07, ANATASIA THEODORIDIS <anastasiatheo01@...> wrote:
      >
      > Christ is the inexhaustible Light. Each saint is a crystal in the
      > heavenly chandelier, but unlike earthly crystals, each of these refracts the
      > Light shining through it in an absolutely unique way. We are not doing full
      > justice to the Light if we do not pause frequently to admire and to honor
      > ALL of the ways He shines through, is refracted and reflected.
      >
      > God is glorious in His saints. Let us glorify Him in Himself AND in His
      > saints AND in all of creation. Sun, moon, stars, fields, flowers, bird and
      > bugs, all the works of His hands are to His glory, but mankind is the apex
      > of His creation, Christ is the flowering of humanity, and His saints are
      > branches of Him. How can one adequately glorify the Vine but not the
      > branches? the Head, without the Body?
      >
      > It IS all about Christ! Yes, even the honoring of saints is NOT about
      > them, but about Christ truly and perceptibly living in them and as them.
      > They are Christ with skin on.
      >
      > Anastasia
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • JiMiRoYaL
      ... about them, but about Christ truly and perceptibly living in them and as them. They are Christ with skin on. ... Indeed, at every Saint s feast day we
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 26, 2007
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        --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "ANATASIA THEODORIDIS"
        <anastasiatheo01@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > It IS all about Christ! Yes, even the honoring of saints is NOT
        about them, but about Christ truly and perceptibly living in them and
        as them. They are Christ with skin on.
        >
        >


        Indeed, at every Saint's feast day we hymn "Save us, O Son of God, who
        are wondrous in your Saints! We sing to You alleluia!"

        JiMi
      • Randy Asburry
        ecclesiological Zwinglianism, Great phrase, Chris! I love it! Consider it swiped and mentally filed for future use! :-) the other thing that struck me was the
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 26, 2007
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          ecclesiological Zwinglianism,



          Great phrase, Chris! I love it! Consider it swiped and mentally filed for
          future use! :-)



          the other thing that struck me was the lack of differentiation between
          invocation, honor, intercession and worship in Lutheran critiques of prayer
          to the saints. They all seem to be made synonyms of each other therefore
          equating worship of God with everything else done relative to saints apart
          from telling their stories.

          Indeed! I think it's also a matter of not differentiating between the
          Western (i.e. Roman) and the Eastern views of the saints, especially vis a
          vis "invoking" them. The Lutheran Confessions did respond/react to certain
          *abuses* in the Roman Church of the day, but I don't see them answering the
          views of the "Greek churches," as the Confessions refer to the Eastern
          Churches. In fact, I find it quite intriguing that quite often the Lutheran
          Confessions appeal to the "Greek churches" and even Greek/Eastern Fathers to
          support their case against the papal/Roman abuses. So, context is key.

          Worship due only to God is one thing (latreia) and honor that
          is due to His saints (doulia) is another and ne'er the twain shall meet.

          You are correct that our Western languages do not typically differentiate
          between these two things. In the Lutheran mindset, "invoke" is "invoke" in
          any way, shape, and form. It's very odd conundrum, especially since
          distinctions are often made in other areas of teaching and practice.

          + + + + +
          Rev. Randy Asburry
          Hope Lutheran Church
          St. Louis, MO
          <mailto:r.asburry@...> mailto:r.asburry@...

          "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
          conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity." (Augsburg
          Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Christopher Orr
          Feel free to use it. I m giving away some of my thoughts for the Colloquium, but... I agree that the response is more in contrast to the Roman position.
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 27, 2007
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            Feel free to use it. I'm giving away some of my thoughts for the
            Colloquium, but...

            I agree that the response is more in contrast to the Roman position.
            Specifically, the teaching regarding the supererogatory merits of the saints
            (BTW, certain Buddhists have a similar concept of a merit 'bank') and the
            fact that by honoring, invoking or praying to the saints the devout can
            access their excess merit and 'earn' a bit of their salvation. This
            accounting model, as has often been discussed, is either not present or not
            present in any way beyond the metaphorical in the Orthodox Church.

            I, too, have thought it odd that such 'difficult' and 'easily misunderstood'
            doctrines as sola gratia and sola fide, as well as trinitarian and
            christological dogma, can be parsed and nuanced, but that praying to the
            saints for their prayers and the fact that it arises from their union with
            God and not through their own, autonomous 'holiness' or 'power' is too
            confusing.

            Christopher


            On 7/26/07, Randy Asburry <r.asburry@...> wrote:
            >
            > ecclesiological Zwinglianism,
            >
            > Great phrase, Chris! I love it! Consider it swiped and mentally filed for
            > future use! :-)
            >
            > the other thing that struck me was the lack of differentiation between
            > invocation, honor, intercession and worship in Lutheran critiques of
            > prayer
            > to the saints. They all seem to be made synonyms of each other therefore
            > equating worship of God with everything else done relative to saints apart
            > from telling their stories.
            >
            > Indeed! I think it's also a matter of not differentiating between the
            > Western (i.e. Roman) and the Eastern views of the saints, especially vis a
            > vis "invoking" them. The Lutheran Confessions did respond/react to certain
            > *abuses* in the Roman Church of the day, but I don't see them answering
            > the
            > views of the "Greek churches," as the Confessions refer to the Eastern
            > Churches. In fact, I find it quite intriguing that quite often the
            > Lutheran
            > Confessions appeal to the "Greek churches" and even Greek/Eastern Fathers
            > to
            > support their case against the papal/Roman abuses. So, context is key.
            >
            > Worship due only to God is one thing (latreia) and honor that
            > is due to His saints (doulia) is another and ne'er the twain shall meet.
            >
            > You are correct that our Western languages do not typically differentiate
            > between these two things. In the Lutheran mindset, "invoke" is "invoke" in
            > any way, shape, and form. It's very odd conundrum, especially since
            > distinctions are often made in other areas of teaching and practice.
            >
            > + + + + +
            > Rev. Randy Asburry
            > Hope Lutheran Church
            > St. Louis, MO
            > <mailto:r.asburry@... <r.asburry%40sbcglobal.net>> mailto:
            > r.asburry@... <r.asburry%40sbcglobal.net>
            >
            > "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
            > conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity." (Augsburg
            > Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Edward Wolfe
            I find the discussion of the folks on The Blog of Concord interesting, not just because I once was Lutheran, but because all argumentation centers, for the
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 31, 2007
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              I find the discussion of the folks on ""The Blog of Concord"
              interesting, not just because I once was Lutheran, but because all
              argumentation centers, for the most part, on quotes from Martin
              Luther, and from Martin Chemnitz and their 16th century thinking.
              Every Father and every Saint, and the practices of the Ancient Faith
              (Orthodoxy) are filtered through their eyes and thinking.

              No matter that the Church has venerated and invoked the saints over
              the centuries -- those lately come have determined that their Fathers
              are wrong!

              Of course, this in one of the reasons for my own homecoming: the
              disrespect of the "great great great .... grandchildren" for their
              Fathers. It is for the Lutherans as though there was the Apostolic
              age, then everything went south until they appeared on the scene. And
              the "sons and daughters" of Luther are worse than he!

              For them "veneration" and "invocation" equal worship, whether it is
              true or not!

              Ezekiel+
            • BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
              Thank you! If I must choose between the opinion of Dr Martin Luther and Patriarch John the Golden-Tongued [inter alia], Dr Luther has already lost. Peter
              Message 6 of 15 , Jul 31, 2007
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                Thank you! If I must choose between the opinion of Dr Martin Luther and Patriarch John the Golden-Tongued [inter alia], Dr Luther has already lost. Peter

                Edward Wolfe <ewolfe@...> wrote:
                No matter that the Church has venerated and invoked the saints over
                the centuries -- those lately come have determined that their Fathers
                are wrong!


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              • JiMiRoYaL
                Greetings in Christ, I sure think I remember you as a Lutheran pastor who used to post over on the Orthodox-Lutheran dialogue list. It appears that you are
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
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                  Greetings in Christ,

                  I sure think I remember you as a Lutheran pastor who used to post
                  over on the Orthodox-Lutheran dialogue list. It appears that you are
                  now Fr. Ezekiel - would these assumptions be correct?

                  Glory to God in all things!

                  JiMi

                  --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Edward Wolfe"
                  <ewolfe@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I find the discussion of the folks on ""The Blog of Concord"
                  > interesting, not just because I once was Lutheran, but because all
                  > argumentation centers, for the most part, on quotes from Martin
                  > Luther, and from Martin Chemnitz and their 16th century thinking.
                  > Every Father and every Saint, and the practices of the Ancient Faith
                  > (Orthodoxy) are filtered through their eyes and thinking.
                  >
                  > No matter that the Church has venerated and invoked the saints over
                  > the centuries -- those lately come have determined that their
                  Fathers
                  > are wrong!
                  >
                  > Of course, this in one of the reasons for my own homecoming: the
                  > disrespect of the "great great great .... grandchildren" for their
                  > Fathers. It is for the Lutherans as though there was the Apostolic
                  > age, then everything went south until they appeared on the scene.
                  And
                  > the "sons and daughters" of Luther are worse than he!
                  >
                  > For them "veneration" and "invocation" equal worship, whether it is
                  > true or not!
                  >
                  > Ezekiel+
                  >
                • BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
                  Today 07/20 on the Julian calendar the Holy Prophet Elijah / Elias is commemorated. Here are a few selected liturgical texts. From Little Vespers: [sticheron
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
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                    Today 07/20 on the Julian calendar the Holy Prophet Elijah / Elias is commemorated. Here are a few selected liturgical texts.

                    From Little Vespers: [sticheron tone 1]:

                    + With the light of the divine radiance of the three-fold Sun, with purity of mind and righteous judgment didst thou denounce the impious king as transgressor of the Law and didst shut the heavens, and didst nurture the widow and her son. Pray thou, O prophet, that our souls be saved.

                    From Great Vespers:

                    [at the Litia, sticheron, tone 4]
                    + O blessed prophet, thou wast a partaker of incorrupt union in God my Savior; parting the Jordan by prayer, thou didst cross it as dry land, and wast caught up on a fiery chariot to the heavens, leaving Elisha a double measure of grace. Wherefore we beseech thee: though thou hast been caught up in the body, yet sunder not thyself from us in spirit, and ever entreat the Lord, that our souls be saved.

                    [at the aposticha, sticheron, tone 6] Glory...
                    + O prophet, preacher of Christ, thou dost never depart from the Throne of Majesty, and ever intercedest for every one afflicted with sickness. Ministering in the highest, glorified in all places, thou dost bless the whole world. Ask thou for cleansing for our souls.

                    [troparion / apolytikion of the prophet, tone 4]
                    + The angel in the flesh, the foundation of the prophets, the second forerunner of the Coming of Christ, the glorious Elijah from on high sent down grace on Elisha to dispel infirmities and to cleanse lepers. Wherefore, he poureth forth healings upon them that honor him.
                    Glory...Now and ever...[theotokion, tone 4]
                    + The mystery hidden from before the ages and unknown even to the angels, through thee, O Theotokos, hath been revealed to those on earth: God incarnate in unconfused union, Who willingly accepted the Cross for our sake and, thereby raising up the first-formed man, hath saved our souls from death.

                    From Matins:

                    [troparion from Ode VIII, canon 1]
                    + On Tabor Christ showed thee to be an initiate of the mystery of His divine incarnation, as thou wast an instiller of purity and a most divine offshoot of virginity, showing the unapproachable light of the Godhead in His body to thee that criest out: All ye works of the Lord, hymn and supremely exalt Him for all ages.

                    [troparion from Ode IX, canon 1]
                    + The Tishbite and Moses the God-seer beheld in revelation on Tabor what eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, and what hath not entered into the hearts of earth-born men: the Lord Almighty, incarnate.

                    ------
                    Translation of Reader Isaac E Lambertsen, copyright 1983 & 1987, published at the St John of Kronstadt Press.


                    ---------------------------------
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                  • Edward Wolfe
                    ... Jimi, You are correct in that I was part of the Orthodox-Lutheran list, and I was indeed a Lutheran pastor. However, I am not a priest. What God has in
                    Message 9 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
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                      --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "JiMiRoYaL" <jimi@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Greetings in Christ,
                      >
                      > I sure think I remember you as a Lutheran pastor who used to post
                      > over on the Orthodox-Lutheran dialogue list. It appears that you are
                      > now Fr. Ezekiel - would these assumptions be correct?
                      >
                      > Glory to God in all things!
                      >
                      > JiMi

                      >

                      Jimi,

                      You are correct in that I was part of the Orthodox-Lutheran list, and
                      I was indeed a Lutheran pastor.

                      However, I am not a priest. What God has in store for me in this
                      regard is not clear yet! :)

                      At this point, we are active in our parish, living as fully as
                      Orthodox as we can, and I do woodworking (turning, scrollwork and
                      other things) and work fulltime at Rockler Woodworking and Hardware.

                      I'm also doing some work on home inconostases, too.

                      Ezekiel+
                    • ANATASIA THEODORIDIS
                      That last song you ve supplied reminds me: with the feast of the Transfiguration approaching, it s good to ponder that upon Mt. Tabor, Jesus was revealed
                      Message 10 of 15 , Aug 4, 2007
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                        That last song you've supplied reminds me: with the feast of the Transfiguration approaching, it's good to ponder that upon Mt. Tabor, Jesus was revealed conversing with two dead saints.

                        Anastasia


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
                        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 8:01 PM
                        Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] on the "Worship of the Saints" an example


                        Today 07/20 on the Julian calendar the Holy Prophet Elijah / Elias is commemorated. Here are a few selected liturgical texts.

                        From Little Vespers: [sticheron tone 1]:

                        + With the light of the divine radiance of the three-fold Sun, with purity of mind and righteous judgment didst thou denounce the impious king as transgressor of the Law and didst shut the heavens, and didst nurture the widow and her son. Pray thou, O prophet, that our souls be saved.

                        From Great Vespers:

                        [at the Litia, sticheron, tone 4]
                        + O blessed prophet, thou wast a partaker of incorrupt union in God my Savior; parting the Jordan by prayer, thou didst cross it as dry land, and wast caught up on a fiery chariot to the heavens, leaving Elisha a double measure of grace. Wherefore we beseech thee: though thou hast been caught up in the body, yet sunder not thyself from us in spirit, and ever entreat the Lord, that our souls be saved.

                        [at the aposticha, sticheron, tone 6] Glory...
                        + O prophet, preacher of Christ, thou dost never depart from the Throne of Majesty, and ever intercedest for every one afflicted with sickness. Ministering in the highest, glorified in all places, thou dost bless the whole world. Ask thou for cleansing for our souls.

                        [troparion / apolytikion of the prophet, tone 4]
                        + The angel in the flesh, the foundation of the prophets, the second forerunner of the Coming of Christ, the glorious Elijah from on high sent down grace on Elisha to dispel infirmities and to cleanse lepers. Wherefore, he poureth forth healings upon them that honor him.
                        Glory...Now and ever...[theotokion, tone 4]
                        + The mystery hidden from before the ages and unknown even to the angels, through thee, O Theotokos, hath been revealed to those on earth: God incarnate in unconfused union, Who willingly accepted the Cross for our sake and, thereby raising up the first-formed man, hath saved our souls from death.

                        From Matins:

                        [troparion from Ode VIII, canon 1]
                        + On Tabor Christ showed thee to be an initiate of the mystery of His divine incarnation, as thou wast an instiller of purity and a most divine offshoot of virginity, showing the unapproachable light of the Godhead in His body to thee that criest out: All ye works of the Lord, hymn and supremely exalt Him for all ages.

                        [troparion from Ode IX, canon 1]
                        + The Tishbite and Moses the God-seer beheld in revelation on Tabor what eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, and what hath not entered into the hearts of earth-born men: the Lord Almighty, incarnate.

                        ------
                        Translation of Reader Isaac E Lambertsen, copyright 1983 & 1987, published at the St John of Kronstadt Press.

                        ---------------------------------
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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                      • JiMiRoYaL
                        Well, Moses died but Elijah never did. Not yet, anyway... And, of course, both are alive in Christ. Good to see you again, Anastasia! JiMi ...
                        Message 11 of 15 , Aug 4, 2007
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                          Well, Moses died but Elijah never did. Not yet, anyway... And, of
                          course, both are alive in Christ.

                          Good to see you again, Anastasia!

                          JiMi

                          --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "ANATASIA THEODORIDIS"
                          <anastasiatheo01@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > That last song you've supplied reminds me: with the feast of the
                          Transfiguration approaching, it's good to ponder that upon Mt. Tabor,
                          Jesus was revealed conversing with two dead saints.
                          >
                          > Anastasia
                          >
                          >
                        • Randy Asburry
                          *Dead* saints? Isn t that an oxymoron? ;-) I thought they were very much *alive* as Jesus was conversing with them! :-) (I m just playing. Please don t turn
                          Message 12 of 15 , Aug 4, 2007
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                            *Dead* saints? Isn't that an oxymoron? ;-) I thought they were very much
                            *alive* as Jesus was conversing with them! :-) (I'm just playing. Please
                            don't turn your infamous "hat pin" on me; save that for Pr. Weedon! :-))



                            Randy

                            + + + + +
                            Rev. Randy Asburry
                            Hope Lutheran Church
                            St. Louis, MO
                            <mailto:r.asburry@...> mailto:r.asburry@...

                            "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
                            conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity." (Augsburg
                            Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).



                            _____

                            From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ANATASIA
                            THEODORIDIS
                            Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 3:35 PM
                            To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] on the "Worship of the Saints" an
                            example



                            That last song you've supplied reminds me: with the feast of the
                            Transfiguration approaching, it's good to ponder that upon Mt. Tabor, Jesus
                            was revealed conversing with two dead saints.

                            Anastasia

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
                            To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                            t@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 8:01 PM
                            Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] on the "Worship of the Saints" an example

                            Today 07/20 on the Julian calendar the Holy Prophet Elijah / Elias is
                            commemorated. Here are a few selected liturgical texts.

                            From Little Vespers: [sticheron tone 1]:

                            + With the light of the divine radiance of the three-fold Sun, with purity
                            of mind and righteous judgment didst thou denounce the impious king as
                            transgressor of the Law and didst shut the heavens, and didst nurture the
                            widow and her son. Pray thou, O prophet, that our souls be saved.

                            From Great Vespers:

                            [at the Litia, sticheron, tone 4]
                            + O blessed prophet, thou wast a partaker of incorrupt union in God my
                            Savior; parting the Jordan by prayer, thou didst cross it as dry land, and
                            wast caught up on a fiery chariot to the heavens, leaving Elisha a double
                            measure of grace. Wherefore we beseech thee: though thou hast been caught up
                            in the body, yet sunder not thyself from us in spirit, and ever entreat the
                            Lord, that our souls be saved.

                            [at the aposticha, sticheron, tone 6] Glory...
                            + O prophet, preacher of Christ, thou dost never depart from the Throne of
                            Majesty, and ever intercedest for every one afflicted with sickness.
                            Ministering in the highest, glorified in all places, thou dost bless the
                            whole world. Ask thou for cleansing for our souls.

                            [troparion / apolytikion of the prophet, tone 4]
                            + The angel in the flesh, the foundation of the prophets, the second
                            forerunner of the Coming of Christ, the glorious Elijah from on high sent
                            down grace on Elisha to dispel infirmities and to cleanse lepers. Wherefore,
                            he poureth forth healings upon them that honor him.
                            Glory...Now and ever...[theotokion, tone 4]
                            + The mystery hidden from before the ages and unknown even to the angels,
                            through thee, O Theotokos, hath been revealed to those on earth: God
                            incarnate in unconfused union, Who willingly accepted the Cross for our sake
                            and, thereby raising up the first-formed man, hath saved our souls from
                            death.

                            From Matins:

                            [troparion from Ode VIII, canon 1]
                            + On Tabor Christ showed thee to be an initiate of the mystery of His divine
                            incarnation, as thou wast an instiller of purity and a most divine offshoot
                            of virginity, showing the unapproachable light of the Godhead in His body to
                            thee that criest out: All ye works of the Lord, hymn and supremely exalt Him
                            for all ages.

                            [troparion from Ode IX, canon 1]
                            + The Tishbite and Moses the God-seer beheld in revelation on Tabor what eye
                            hath not seen, nor ear heard, and what hath not entered into the hearts of
                            earth-born men: the Lord Almighty, incarnate.

                            ------
                            Translation of Reader Isaac E Lambertsen, copyright 1983 & 1987, published
                            at the St John of Kronstadt Press.

                            ---------------------------------
                            Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
                            Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                            Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                            Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/933 - Release Date: 8/2/2007
                            2:22 PM

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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • ANATASIA THEODORIDIS
                            You re both quite right. Not dead, and Elijah never was. And no saint is. So, okay, I won t poke you with ANY of my hat pins. (I have three: one with a
                            Message 13 of 15 , Aug 5, 2007
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                              You're both quite right. Not dead, and Elijah never was. And no saint is.

                              So, okay, I won't poke you with ANY of my hat pins. (I have three: one with a pear-shaped, pearl cap, one with a "ruby" and crystal cap, and my new, onyx pin. Pearl for a relatively benign, small prick. Ruby for drawing blood. Onyx for when I feel quite wicked.)

                              :-)
                              Anastasia


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Randy Asburry
                              To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 5:24 PM
                              Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEast] on the "Worship of the Saints" an example


                              *Dead* saints? Isn't that an oxymoron? ;-) I thought they were very much
                              *alive* as Jesus was conversing with them! :-) (I'm just playing. Please
                              don't turn your infamous "hat pin" on me; save that for Pr. Weedon! :-))

                              Randy

                              + + + + +
                              Rev. Randy Asburry
                              Hope Lutheran Church
                              St. Louis, MO
                              <mailto:r.asburry@...> mailto:r.asburry@...

                              "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
                              conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity." (Augsburg
                              Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).

                              _____

                              From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                              [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ANATASIA
                              THEODORIDIS
                              Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 3:35 PM
                              To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] on the "Worship of the Saints" an
                              example

                              That last song you've supplied reminds me: with the feast of the
                              Transfiguration approaching, it's good to ponder that upon Mt. Tabor, Jesus
                              was revealed conversing with two dead saints.

                              Anastasia

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
                              To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                              t@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 8:01 PM
                              Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] on the "Worship of the Saints" an example

                              Today 07/20 on the Julian calendar the Holy Prophet Elijah / Elias is
                              commemorated. Here are a few selected liturgical texts.

                              From Little Vespers: [sticheron tone 1]:

                              + With the light of the divine radiance of the three-fold Sun, with purity
                              of mind and righteous judgment didst thou denounce the impious king as
                              transgressor of the Law and didst shut the heavens, and didst nurture the
                              widow and her son. Pray thou, O prophet, that our souls be saved.

                              From Great Vespers:

                              [at the Litia, sticheron, tone 4]
                              + O blessed prophet, thou wast a partaker of incorrupt union in God my
                              Savior; parting the Jordan by prayer, thou didst cross it as dry land, and
                              wast caught up on a fiery chariot to the heavens, leaving Elisha a double
                              measure of grace. Wherefore we beseech thee: though thou hast been caught up
                              in the body, yet sunder not thyself from us in spirit, and ever entreat the
                              Lord, that our souls be saved.

                              [at the aposticha, sticheron, tone 6] Glory...
                              + O prophet, preacher of Christ, thou dost never depart from the Throne of
                              Majesty, and ever intercedest for every one afflicted with sickness.
                              Ministering in the highest, glorified in all places, thou dost bless the
                              whole world. Ask thou for cleansing for our souls.

                              [troparion / apolytikion of the prophet, tone 4]
                              + The angel in the flesh, the foundation of the prophets, the second
                              forerunner of the Coming of Christ, the glorious Elijah from on high sent
                              down grace on Elisha to dispel infirmities and to cleanse lepers. Wherefore,
                              he poureth forth healings upon them that honor him.
                              Glory...Now and ever...[theotokion, tone 4]
                              + The mystery hidden from before the ages and unknown even to the angels,
                              through thee, O Theotokos, hath been revealed to those on earth: God
                              incarnate in unconfused union, Who willingly accepted the Cross for our sake
                              and, thereby raising up the first-formed man, hath saved our souls from
                              death.

                              From Matins:

                              [troparion from Ode VIII, canon 1]
                              + On Tabor Christ showed thee to be an initiate of the mystery of His divine
                              incarnation, as thou wast an instiller of purity and a most divine offshoot
                              of virginity, showing the unapproachable light of the Godhead in His body to
                              thee that criest out: All ye works of the Lord, hymn and supremely exalt Him
                              for all ages.

                              [troparion from Ode IX, canon 1]
                              + The Tishbite and Moses the God-seer beheld in revelation on Tabor what eye
                              hath not seen, nor ear heard, and what hath not entered into the hearts of
                              earth-born men: the Lord Almighty, incarnate.

                              ------
                              Translation of Reader Isaac E Lambertsen, copyright 1983 & 1987, published
                              at the St John of Kronstadt Press.

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