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Re: What is meant by justification?

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  • tantuslabor
    ... justification. . . ... purpose other ... Justification ... pre-Augustinian tradition? Why is always the hardest question, isn t it? Perhaps someone else
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 27, 2007
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      --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew"
      <drew1095950@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Fr. Gregory,
      >
      > > " . . . early Christian writers did not choose to express their
      > > soteriological convictions in terms of the concept of
      justification. . .
      > > their interest in the concept is . . . minimal, and the term generally
      > > occurs in their writings as a direct citation from, or a recognisable
      > > allusion to, the epistles of Paul, generally employed for some
      purpose other
      > > than a discussion of the concept of justification itself . . .
      Justification
      > > was simply not a theological issue in the pre-Augustinian tradition."
      >
      > But why is this so? Why is it important to St. Paul and not to the
      pre-Augustinian tradition?

      "Why" is always the hardest question, isn't it? Perhaps someone else
      can offer a reason. For me, it's enough to know the fact. I could
      speculate that justification is one of a number of soteriological
      metaphors, and that the same territory is mapped by other metaphors.
      But, as I say, the fact itself is enough for me.

      The unworthy priest,

      Fr. Gregory Hogg

      > > You might also check out St. Mark the Ascetic, "On those who think
      they are
      > > righteous by works," in vol. 1 of the Philokalia.
      >
      > Thanks. I'll get on it.
      >
      >
      > Andrew.
      >
    • Anastasia Theodoridis
      ... It means that, joined with Christ and living His *Resurrection Life*, (of which Life the Law is totally ignorant) we are no longer under the jurisdiction
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 27, 2007
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        > You say 'I am justified'. Well and good, but
        > what does that mean?

        It means that, joined with Christ and living His *Resurrection Life*, (of which Life the Law is totally ignorant) we are no longer under the jurisdiction of the Law.

        It means that however richly we deserve the death sentence, we are made immune to it. Christ has already joined us to His Immortal Life.

        It means we no longer have any legal liability.

        It means we are forgiven.

        It doesn't mean we are set right with the Law, for the Law was never the point; Life in Christ always was. It means instead that the Law has no claim upon the dead (and risen).

        It means God , Who has perfect vision and no need to pull the wool over His eyes, sees every one of us exactly as he is -- and miraculously still constantly forgives as we keep repenting! -- and still grants us communion in His immortal Life. And still promises to perfect and glorify us with Himself one day.

        love in Christ,
        Anastasia

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Anastasia Theodoridis
        ... Dear Andrew, In a nutshell: because the Orthodox do not view salvation in *primarily* forensic terms, but in broader terms, inter-personal ones, instead.
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 28, 2007
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          >> 2. The word "justification" is not eschewed by Orthodox theologians.
          >> See the commentaries by these Orthodox theologians, e.g., St John
          >> Chrysostom, St Ambrose, and St Augustine.

          >But why? That's what I'm trying to get at.

          Dear Andrew,

          In a nutshell: because the Orthodox do not view salvation in *primarily* forensic terms, but in broader terms, inter-personal ones, instead. The legal element (including justification) is certainly neither lacking nor, heaven forbid, denied; it's just not the emphasis.

          love in Christ,
          Anastasia

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Christopher Orr
          And I would go back to the fact that our read of Paul being so focused on justification is likely just that, our read of Paul. All those Fathers in the
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 28, 2007
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            And I would go back to the fact that our 'read' of Paul being so focused on
            justification is likely just that, our 'read' of Paul. All those Fathers in
            the subsequent years after Paul was writing did not speak in exactly the
            same way, so it is likely that Paul did not emphasize or understand
            salvation in the way we do. In fact, he may have delivered much more of
            Christianity to them than we have in the surviving Apostolic texts of the NT
            - which is exactly what St. Paul says in 2 Thes.

            Christopher


            On 2/28/07, Anastasia Theodoridis <anastasiatheo01@...> wrote:
            >
            > >> 2. The word "justification" is not eschewed by Orthodox theologians.
            > >> See the commentaries by these Orthodox theologians, e.g., St John
            > >> Chrysostom, St Ambrose, and St Augustine.
            >
            > >But why? That's what I'm trying to get at.
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jeremy
            We are reading through a book called FIRST FRUITS OF PRAYER, by Frederica Matthewes-Green, for our Adult Class at Church. There is a paragraph in today s
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 28, 2007
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              We are reading through a book called FIRST FRUITS OF PRAYER, by
              Frederica Matthewes-Green, for our Adult Class at Church. There is a
              paragraph in today's reading that might help clarify where the Orthodox
              emphasis is in their understanding of justification:

              "The Roman Empire established a monumental system of law that was
              effective in regulating the whole of the ancient world. We descendants
              of that history understand the word "justified" in that legal sense.
              But in the Hebraic and Greek biblical sense, justice was a condition of
              harmony between God and all Creation. It was a relationship. In this
              kind of "justice," the members of the community are in peaceful unity
              with each other.
              "This is why repentance matters. Raw legalism, pursuing external
              justice, could have no use for repentance. Repentance does not effect
              repayment, so it is irrelevant."

              Now this is a HUGE point. It's easy to just breeze right by that.
              But let it sink in. If God was so stuck on "making up" for our sins,
              like collecting debts so His balance sheet will balance, repentance
              wouldn't matter if we didn't first "satisfy" what that legal justice
              required. And besides, what concern with debt has compassionate and
              long-suffering love? I digress.

              "But we are justified because Christ loves us, and because we come
              to Him in humility and love. "Righteousness" is "right relationship"
              [yes, I know it's more than that, but this is a devotional] and a right
              relationship with Christ will cause His followers to behave like He does
              - not cowering before a code of "objective morality," but bearing "good
              fruit" (Matthew 7:17-18) from a healed heart.
              "Ponder the difference between theses two ways of understanding
              "justification," the "courtroom" meaning and the "relationship" meaning.
              Which is more demanding? WHich is more thorough? Which is more
              enduring?"

              As Anastasia said, keep in mind that the legal or forensic
              understanding of justification and salvation is not so much absent, as
              much as it is not very heavily emphasized.
              A friend of mine put it like this:
              "When it comes to confession and prayer, are we more likely to lay
              bare all our iniquities and infirmities before the Divine Judge or the
              Divine Physician?"
              Besides, a Physician helps us see our infirmities and iniquities for
              what they are, with the goal of healing and delivering us from them (two
              of the primary meanings of "salvation"). A Judge is there to . . .
              judge, and pass a sentence. Judgment will come at the Last Day, for
              which we should be preparing, but not before. At this point we are
              preparing, and God is our Helper. He Himself is our Life and Salvation.
              That brings me to something that bothered me when I was a Lutheran.
              It always seemed like we equivocated on "justification" and "salvation"
              as if they were identical. The view of salvation always seemed very
              one-sided. What of sanctification? glorification? Are they not also
              integral to salvation?

              This has really been a great thread so far! Keep asking the tough
              questions, Andrew.


              Jeremy




              --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <drew1095950@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Anastasia,
              >
              > While all that is helpful, it still seems to dodge the question: what
              is meant by justification?
              > You say 'I am justified'. Well and good, but what does that mean?
              >
              >
              > Thanks for your contribution.
              >
              > Andrew.
              >




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Randy Asburry
              Please forgive my tardiness to this thread, but last week entailed fighting a nasty head cold and then playing catch up, and I am just now reading through the
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 5 4:23 AM
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                Please forgive my tardiness to this thread, but last week entailed fighting
                a nasty head cold and then playing catch up, and I am just now reading
                through the emails.



                Perhaps this little gem from Bp. Kallistos Ware on justification and
                sanctification can be helpful (from his little book How Are We Saved: The
                Understanding of Salvation in the Orthodox Tradition, p. 66-67):



                "By this time it will be abundantly clear that, when we Orthodox speak about
                salvation, we do not have in view any sharp differentiation between
                justification and sanctification. Indeed, Orthodox usually have little to
                say about justification as a distinct topic; I note, for example, that in my
                own work The Orthodox Church, written thirty years ago, the word
                'justification' does not appear in the index, although this was not a
                deliberate omission. Orthodoxy links sanctification and justification
                together, just as St. Paul does in 1 Cor. 6:11: 'You were washed, you were
                sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in
                the Spirit of our God.' The references to justification in the opening
                chapters of Romans (for example 3:20, 24, 28), we understand in the light of
                Romans 6:4-10, which describe our radical incorporation through baptism into
                Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Salvation, as already stated, is
                not a single event in our past life but an ongoing process of growth in
                Christ. It is not simply to turn our face in the right direction and to take
                the first step on our journey, but it is to continue walking until by God's
                grace we attain our journey's end. We Orthodox, then, "see 'justification'
                and 'sanctification' as one divine action.one continuous process", to use
                the words of the Common Statement issued by the Lutheran-Orthodox Dialogue
                in North America. As Bishop Maximos Aghiorgoussis says: Justification is not
                a separate act of God but the negative aspect of salvation in Christ, which
                is freedom from sin, death and the devil; whereas sanctification is the
                positive aspect of God's saving act, that of spiritual growth in the new
                life in Christ communicated by God's Holy Spirit. The two aspects, negative
                and positive, form a single undivided reality."





                + + + + +
                Rev. Randy Asburry
                Hope Lutheran Church
                St. Louis, MO
                <mailto:r.asburry@...> mailto:r.asburry@...

                "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
                conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity." (Augsburg
                Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).



                _____

                From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                Theodoridis
                Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 9:24 AM
                To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: What is meant by justification?



                >> 2. The word "justification" is not eschewed by Orthodox theologians.
                >> See the commentaries by these Orthodox theologians, e.g., St John
                >> Chrysostom, St Ambrose, and St Augustine.

                >But why? That's what I'm trying to get at.

                Dear Andrew,

                In a nutshell: because the Orthodox do not view salvation in *primarily*
                forensic terms, but in broader terms, inter-personal ones, instead. The
                legal element (including justification) is certainly neither lacking nor,
                heaven forbid, denied; it's just not the emphasis.

                love in Christ,
                Anastasia

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jeremy
                Right on! I just came across this quote in another article I was reading this morning: Justification is a word used in the Scriptures to mean that in Christ
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 5 6:33 AM
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                  Right on!
                  I just came across this quote in another article I was reading this
                  morning:

                  "Justification is a word used in the Scriptures to mean that in Christ
                  we are forgiven and actually made righteous in our living.
                  Justification is not a once-for-all, instantaneous pronouncement
                  guaranteeing eternal salvation, no matter how wickedly a person may
                  live from that point on. Neither is it merely a legal declaration
                  that an unrighteous person is righteous. Rather, justification is a
                  living, dynamic, day-to-day reality for the one who follows Christ.
                  The Christian actively pursues a righteous life in the grace and power
                  of God granted to all who are believing Him."

                  - What Orthodox Christians Believe. (Ben Lomand, CA: Conciliar
                  Press), 1988. Pg. 7. -


                  John

                  --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Randy Asburry"
                  <r.asburry@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Please forgive my tardiness to this thread, but last week entailed
                  fighting
                  > a nasty head cold and then playing catch up, and I am just now reading
                  > through the emails.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Perhaps this little gem from Bp. Kallistos Ware on justification and
                  > sanctification can be helpful (from his little book How Are We
                  Saved: The
                  > Understanding of Salvation in the Orthodox Tradition, p. 66-67):
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > "By this time it will be abundantly clear that, when we Orthodox
                  speak about
                  > salvation, we do not have in view any sharp differentiation between
                  > justification and sanctification. Indeed, Orthodox usually have
                  little to
                  > say about justification as a distinct topic; I note, for example,
                  that in my
                  > own work The Orthodox Church, written thirty years ago, the word
                  > 'justification' does not appear in the index, although this was not a
                  > deliberate omission. Orthodoxy links sanctification and justification
                  > together, just as St. Paul does in 1 Cor. 6:11: 'You were washed,
                  you were
                  > sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ
                  and in
                  > the Spirit of our God.' The references to justification in the opening
                  > chapters of Romans (for example 3:20, 24, 28), we understand in the
                  light of
                  > Romans 6:4-10, which describe our radical incorporation through
                  baptism into
                  > Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Salvation, as already
                  stated, is
                  > not a single event in our past life but an ongoing process of growth in
                  > Christ. It is not simply to turn our face in the right direction and
                  to take
                  > the first step on our journey, but it is to continue walking until
                  by God's
                  > grace we attain our journey's end. We Orthodox, then, "see
                  'justification'
                  > and 'sanctification' as one divine action.one continuous process",
                  to use
                  > the words of the Common Statement issued by the Lutheran-Orthodox
                  Dialogue
                  > in North America. As Bishop Maximos Aghiorgoussis says:
                  Justification is not
                  > a separate act of God but the negative aspect of salvation in
                  Christ, which
                  > is freedom from sin, death and the devil; whereas sanctification is the
                  > positive aspect of God's saving act, that of spiritual growth in the new
                  > life in Christ communicated by God's Holy Spirit. The two aspects,
                  negative
                  > and positive, form a single undivided reality."
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > + + + + +
                  > Rev. Randy Asburry
                  > Hope Lutheran Church
                  > St. Louis, MO
                  > <mailto:r.asburry@...> mailto:r.asburry@...
                  >
                  > "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
                  > conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity."
                  (Augsburg
                  > Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > _____
                  >
                  > From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                  > Theodoridis
                  > Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 9:24 AM
                  > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: What is meant by justification?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > >> 2. The word "justification" is not eschewed by Orthodox theologians.
                  > >> See the commentaries by these Orthodox theologians, e.g., St John
                  > >> Chrysostom, St Ambrose, and St Augustine.
                  >
                  > >But why? That's what I'm trying to get at.
                  >
                  > Dear Andrew,
                  >
                  > In a nutshell: because the Orthodox do not view salvation in *primarily*
                  > forensic terms, but in broader terms, inter-personal ones, instead. The
                  > legal element (including justification) is certainly neither lacking
                  nor,
                  > heaven forbid, denied; it's just not the emphasis.
                  >
                  > love in Christ,
                  > Anastasia
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Trent Sebits
                  The following is a short essay written by Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon on justification that I found informative. Trent Sebits Although the Judaizing controversy
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 5 6:41 AM
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                    The following is a short essay written by Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon on
                    justification that I found informative.

                    Trent Sebits

                    Although the Judaizing controversy of the 50's forced the doctrine of
                    Justification rather clearly to the fore in some of St. Paul's epistles,
                    this aspect of Christ's atonement is hardly the key to all Pauline
                    theology that later Western polemics made it out to be. Indeed, the
                    theme of Justification is hardly to be found in the Thessalonian
                    letters, which were written prior to the Judaizing controversy, and even
                    in some later epistles Jystification does not rise to dominance. If
                    Justification (dikaiosis) were the major topic of Paul's thought, we
                    would surely expect him to use the word more than twice (Romans 4:25;
                    5:18, but also dikaioma in 5:16). While the verb "to justify" (dikaioo)
                    is used 15 times in Romans and 8 times in Galatians, it appears only 4
                    other times, in fact, in the rest of Paul's writings (1 Corinthians 4:4;
                    6:11; 1 Timothy 3:16; Titus 3:7).

                    To gain a more balanced sense of St. Paul's theological perspective, it
                    is instructive to compare those numbers with the 62 times that Paul uses
                    the noun "church" (ekklesia). Simply from the perspective of vocabulary
                    frequency, it is obvious that Paul spent far more time and effort on
                    ecclesiology than on Justification.

                    This is not to say, of course, that Justification is a minor theme in
                    St. Paul. On the contrary, this aspect of the Christian's relationship
                    with God pertains to the heart of Paul's theology of revelation. The
                    revelation of God in Christ is the disclosure of the righteous God
                    foretold in biblical prophecy.

                    All through the Bible, and not only in Paul, after all, it is the God of
                    righteousness who brings deliverance to His people through His great
                    deeds of mercy and fidelity to His covenant. The culminating work of His
                    redemption is the act by which this righteous God makes man himself
                    righteous, "because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that
                    were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His
                    righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier (dikaon kai
                    dikaiounta) of the one who has faith in Jesus" (Romans 3:25-26).

                    This divine deed, by which God justifies man, is entirely of grace; it
                    is nothing that man can merit or deserve, because "all have sinned and
                    fall short of the glory of God" (3:23). The sheer gratuity of God's
                    justifying act is the basis of Paul's contention that those that are
                    justified in Christ have no need to justify themselves by the observance
                    of the Mosaic Law. Thus, the doctrine of justification, which Paul
                    elaborated in response to the Judaizing controversy of the 50's, laid
                    the basis for an essential step in the development of ecclesiology. It
                    enunciated the principle that would, in practice, separate Judaism from
                    the Church. It is the trauma of that growing separation that we see in
                    Paul's epistles and in the Acts of the Apostles.

                    The verb "to justify," dikaioo, when it is used in the Septuagint,
                    normally means a declaration of righteousness. This is exactly what we
                    would expect in the Old Testament, under a covenant that could not make
                    men righteous, and with sacrifices of bulls and goats that could never
                    take away sins.

                    This is not the case in the New Testament, however, where God's
                    justification of man in Christ is not a mere pronouncement, as though
                    somehow a guilty party has been declared "not guilty" by a forensic
                    declaration. No, what the creating God says, He accomplishes.
                    Justification in the New Testament is an ontological reality, not a
                    legal fiction. What the creating God declares, He makes come to pass.

                    And how does God make man righteous? By identifying him with Christ, His
                    own beloved Son, through the inner working of divine grace. It is man's
                    identification with Christ that renders a man just before God, for
                    Christ alone is the righteous One.

                    By Adam's sin, after all, we human beings were not simply "declared"
                    sinners, but "made" sinners. So too, St. Paul reasons, in Christ we are
                    "made" righteous: "For as by one man's disobedience many were made
                    (katestathesan) sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be
                    made (katastathesonatai) righteous" (Romans 5:19).

                    Man, with no righteousness of his own, receives the righteousness of
                    God. The believer is justified by receiving into his very being the
                    revelation of God's righteousness in Christ: "I also count all things
                    loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for
                    whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish,
                    that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own
                    righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in
                    Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith" (Philippians
                    3:8-9).

                    This "righteousness which is from God" is an internal fact, an
                    alteration of man's soul, the very action of justifying grace, by which
                    the believer himself becomes righteous, because God "made Him who knew
                    no sin to be sin for us, that we might become (genometha) the
                    righteousness of God in Him" (2 Corinthians 5:21).

                    Fr. Patrick Reardon is pastor of All Saints Antiochian Orthodox Church
                    in Chicago, Illinois, and a Senior Editor of Touchstone: A Journal of
                    Mere Christianity <http://www.touchstonemag.com/> . He is also the
                    author of Christ in the Psalms, and Christ in His Saints (both books are
                    published by Conciliar Press).


                    ________________________________

                    From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy
                    Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 8:33 AM
                    To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: What is meant by justification?



                    Right on!
                    I just came across this quote in another article I was reading this
                    morning:

                    "Justification is a word used in the Scriptures to mean that in Christ
                    we are forgiven and actually made righteous in our living.
                    Justification is not a once-for-all, instantaneous pronouncement
                    guaranteeing eternal salvation, no matter how wickedly a person may
                    live from that point on. Neither is it merely a legal declaration
                    that an unrighteous person is righteous. Rather, justification is a
                    living, dynamic, day-to-day reality for the one who follows Christ.
                    The Christian actively pursues a righteous life in the grace and power
                    of God granted to all who are believing Him."

                    - What Orthodox Christians Believe. (Ben Lomand, CA: Conciliar
                    Press), 1988. Pg. 7. -

                    John

                    --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com> , "Randy Asburry"
                    <r.asburry@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Please forgive my tardiness to this thread, but last week entailed
                    fighting
                    > a nasty head cold and then playing catch up, and I am just now reading
                    > through the emails.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Perhaps this little gem from Bp. Kallistos Ware on justification and
                    > sanctification can be helpful (from his little book How Are We
                    Saved: The
                    > Understanding of Salvation in the Orthodox Tradition, p. 66-67):
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > "By this time it will be abundantly clear that, when we Orthodox
                    speak about
                    > salvation, we do not have in view any sharp differentiation between
                    > justification and sanctification. Indeed, Orthodox usually have
                    little to
                    > say about justification as a distinct topic; I note, for example,
                    that in my
                    > own work The Orthodox Church, written thirty years ago, the word
                    > 'justification' does not appear in the index, although this was not a
                    > deliberate omission. Orthodoxy links sanctification and justification
                    > together, just as St. Paul does in 1 Cor. 6:11: 'You were washed,
                    you were
                    > sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ
                    and in
                    > the Spirit of our God.' The references to justification in the opening
                    > chapters of Romans (for example 3:20, 24, 28), we understand in the
                    light of
                    > Romans 6:4-10, which describe our radical incorporation through
                    baptism into
                    > Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Salvation, as already
                    stated, is
                    > not a single event in our past life but an ongoing process of growth
                    in
                    > Christ. It is not simply to turn our face in the right direction and
                    to take
                    > the first step on our journey, but it is to continue walking until
                    by God's
                    > grace we attain our journey's end. We Orthodox, then, "see
                    'justification'
                    > and 'sanctification' as one divine action.one continuous process",
                    to use
                    > the words of the Common Statement issued by the Lutheran-Orthodox
                    Dialogue
                    > in North America. As Bishop Maximos Aghiorgoussis says:
                    Justification is not
                    > a separate act of God but the negative aspect of salvation in
                    Christ, which
                    > is freedom from sin, death and the devil; whereas sanctification is
                    the
                    > positive aspect of God's saving act, that of spiritual growth in the
                    new
                    > life in Christ communicated by God's Holy Spirit. The two aspects,
                    negative
                    > and positive, form a single undivided reality."
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > + + + + +
                    > Rev. Randy Asburry
                    > Hope Lutheran Church
                    > St. Louis, MO
                    > <mailto:r.asburry@...> mailto:r.asburry@...
                    >
                    > "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
                    > conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity."
                    (Augsburg
                    > Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    > From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                    > Theodoridis
                    > Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 9:24 AM
                    > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: What is meant by
                    justification?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > >> 2. The word "justification" is not eschewed by Orthodox
                    theologians.
                    > >> See the commentaries by these Orthodox theologians, e.g., St John
                    > >> Chrysostom, St Ambrose, and St Augustine.
                    >
                    > >But why? That's what I'm trying to get at.
                    >
                    > Dear Andrew,
                    >
                    > In a nutshell: because the Orthodox do not view salvation in
                    *primarily*
                    > forensic terms, but in broader terms, inter-personal ones, instead.
                    The
                    > legal element (including justification) is certainly neither lacking
                    nor,
                    > heaven forbid, denied; it's just not the emphasis.
                    >
                    > love in Christ,
                    > Anastasia
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Laura
                    Hello everyone, I joined LLE a few weeks ago and haven t properly introduced myself yet. My name is Laura Frizelle. I live in Eagle River, Alaska and am
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 9 4:17 PM
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                      Hello everyone, I joined LLE a few weeks ago and haven't properly introduced
                      myself yet. My name is Laura Frizelle. I live in Eagle River, Alaska and
                      am currently a LCMS Lutheran and have been seriously inquiring into
                      Orthodoxy since last August. I am reading lots and participating as much as
                      I can in the local Antiochian parish down the road where my boys also attend
                      preschool and kindergarten.

                      The articles and quotes that you all have shared on justification have been
                      good. Thank-you all. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the
                      following:

                      I read an interesting essay by Dr. David Scaer from Concordia Theological
                      Seminary in Ft. Wayne, Indiana yesterday. The title is "Sanctification in
                      the Lutheran Confessions" and you can find it in the July 1989 Concordia
                      Theological Quarterly.

                      Many things that he said in the essay in regard to justification and its
                      relationship to sanctification flowing in one continuous stream out of
                      Christ for us and in us sounded a lot like the Orthodox perspective on
                      justification that you have been talking about recently on this forum.

                      Scaer sees that justification and sanctification are all wrapped up
                      together.

                      Of course what Scaer says here includes no notion of cooperation or synergy,
                      but I thought it remarkable that he is almost criticizing the way that
                      Lutherans tend to go overboard parsing God's saving work into scholastic
                      categories. Subjective and objective, passive and active, the first, second
                      and third uses of the law. etc...

                      Also it is interesting that he says, "Lutheranism is the only one among
                      WESTERN religions that offers a doctrine of justification which is not
                      intrinsically moralistic."

                      by this does he mean that the East also has it right???
                      HMMMM? ;-)

                      I quote Dr. Scaer further:

                      "Doctrines should not be regarded as separate entities brought together to
                      construct a whole, but perspectives on Christ's person and work (ie.,
                      Christology). Justification, the chief article in Lutheranism, is only an
                      extension of Christology into the life of the believer in regard to the
                      certainty of salvation. God justifies the sinner for Christ's sake. In
                      turn sanctification is an extension first of justification and then
                      Christology. "

                      and

                      "When justification becomes an item which is now seen through the rear-view
                      mirror as something which has happened and sanctification or the Christian
                      life is seen as something which is viewed through the windshield as a
                      current or future action, sanctification is bound to deteriorate into
                      moralism (phariseeism)."

                      "The Christian is alive to Christ and dead to sin and the law. By faith
                      Christ is now living in him and he is no longer living, but Christ is living
                      in him. In this moment the separate articles of Christology, justification,
                      and sanctification have indeed become one cloth and one substance......The
                      Christian or sanctified life is Christological, first of all because Christ
                      lives in us by faith; secondly it is Christ who is doing these works in us;
                      and thirdly these works are clearly recognizable as those which Christ alone
                      can do and which He in fact does in us."

                      "The Spirit directed life is a completely Christological life, because the
                      Spirit who was responsible for his conception is the same Spirit whom Christ
                      sent into the world."

                      "The law and Gospel which stood in antithetical relationship for the world
                      in sin find their perfect harmony and unity first in Christ who has
                      fulfilled the law and given ust the Gospel, but also now in the sanctified
                      life of the Christian. The good works which Adam could do before he sinned
                      and could never do as a sinner, we can now do in Christ and as Christ did.
                      This is Luther's understanding of good works in the Small Catechism and in
                      doing this he showed us how Christology, justification, and sanctification
                      belong together."


                      Being in Christ, justified and sanctified all together---is this not what
                      theosis is?

                      Last August a Lutheran pastor who converted told me that the juridical
                      paradigm that Lutherans and all other western churches emphasize over others
                      is just one paradigm. Orthodoxy emphasizes healing and restoration. That
                      doesn't mean that the juridical paradigm doesn't exist in Orthodoxy, it
                      does. Christ will come to judge the living and the dead.

                      But when you think about who God is and why he created us in his image and
                      likeness--for communion with the Holy Trinity, each person unique, yet
                      completely united in perfect love-- (In contrast to the Lutheran unspoken
                      notion that he created us to be his happy and efficient workers-- alles in
                      ordnung! How does the small catechism put it? Our chief duty is love,
                      serve and obey...)

                      What does God see when he looks at us? Which paradigm fits our relationship
                      with him the best?

                      For me, the next BIG questions was, "Who is man? What is sin? What do the
                      Orthodox believe happened in the garden of Eden? Does sinful man have any
                      ability to choose or seek God?"

                      The answers to these questions opened my eyes and my heart in a big way.

                      God wants us to see his face in everyone, especially the very least of our
                      neighbors. I believe when he looks at humanity, and each of us as
                      individuals, in his mercy and because of Christ, he sees the potential for
                      love and communion with us more than he sees our rotten sinfulness.

                      I believe healing and restoration is the better paradigm to describe the
                      Holy Trinity's work for us and in us. Overemphasizing the juridical aspect
                      of salvation causes many of us to color God, the Father especially, with
                      worldly misunderstanding of justice and contempt because true righteousness
                      is not experienced by many of us in our daily life and discipline that flows
                      out of pure love is rare.

                      I think that the Lutheran distinction between Law and Gospel sets us up to
                      think ...law bad....gospel good.
                      Our Lutheran tendencies toward minimalizing, sola-izing, and reductionism
                      get us into lots of trouble.

                      'Nuff said for now!

                      Peace, Love and Joy in Christ Our Lord!
                      Laura
                    • Laura
                      correction, you probably caught it already, but... Dr. David Scaer said in his essay Sanctification in the Lutheran Confessions published in the July 1989
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 9 5:04 PM
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                        correction, you probably caught it already, but...

                        Dr. David Scaer said in his essay "Sanctification in the Lutheran
                        Confessions" published in the July 1989 issue of Concordia Theological
                        Quarterly

                        "Lutheranism is the only one among WESTERN religions that offers a doctrine
                        of ...sanctification...which is not intrinsically moralistic."

                        Do you think he means to say that the Eastern Orthodox also have it right,
                        meaning not moralistic?

                        Do any of you who are already Orthodox view deification as moralistic?

                        Peace,
                        Laura
                      • gshenricus
                        Just for giggles and grins, I went to try and dig up that article from Dr. Scaer which you posted a portion of. I found out that I will have to order the
                        Message 11 of 24 , Mar 9 7:55 PM
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                          Just for giggles and grins, I went to try and dig up that article
                          from Dr. Scaer which you posted a portion of. I found out that I
                          will have to order the entire issue which I have done. If there is
                          away to post the entire article so that all (Orthodox and Lutherans
                          alike) may understand what Dr. Scaer is saying, I will do so (that is
                          if the moderator allows it).

                          However in the meantime here is anothe article from Dr. Scaer from a
                          CTQ issue in 1985, called "Sanctification in Lutheran Theology" which
                          everyone here might find of interest as well. Here is the link:
                          http://www.ctsfw.edu/ctq/text/aprjul85scaer.pdf

                          Enjoy

                          Pr. Gregory Hinners
                          LCMS pastor & unworthy servant

                          --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Laura <lfrizelle@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > correction, you probably caught it already, but...
                          >
                          > Dr. David Scaer said in his essay "Sanctification in the Lutheran
                          > Confessions" published in the July 1989 issue of Concordia
                          Theological
                          > Quarterly
                          >
                          > "Lutheranism is the only one among WESTERN religions that offers a
                          doctrine
                          > of ...sanctification...which is not intrinsically moralistic."
                          >
                          > Do you think he means to say that the Eastern Orthodox also have it
                          right,
                          > meaning not moralistic?
                          >
                          > Do any of you who are already Orthodox view deification as
                          moralistic?
                          >
                          > Peace,
                          > Laura
                          >
                        • Laura
                          Thanks Pastor Hinners, I printed off the Scaer paper you linked in your message. I look forward to reading it. Father Harold Dunaway and his wife Khouria Barb
                          Message 12 of 24 , Mar 10 11:25 AM
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                            Thanks Pastor Hinners,

                            I printed off the Scaer paper you linked in your message.
                            I look forward to reading it.

                            Father Harold Dunaway and his wife Khouria Barb are going to get together
                            with me after Bright week and we are going to read over these Scaer papers
                            and the latest issue of Good News on Teaching which is, from what I can tell
                            so far, a summarization of the Lutheran doctrines of Justification and
                            Sanctification.

                            It will be good to get an Orthodox critique of these Lutheran doctrines to
                            figure out more precisely what the differences are so that I can better
                            renounce them if and when I convert.

                            Also I am simply looking forward to spending time with Fr. Harold and Kh.
                            Barb. They converted from Campus Crusade for Christ back in the 70's with
                            Fr. Peter Gilquist, Fr. Jack Sparks (who is also a part of the local parish
                            here) and the other large group of evangelicals, about 2000 in all I think.
                            These are dear, dear saints who I am growing to love and cherish more and
                            more every time I see them.

                            Praise Him in the Highest!
                            Laura
                          • Laura
                            You know what would be the coolest? To have Dr. Scaer, his wife Dorothy, Dr. Weinrich, Roland Zeigler, Fr. Sparks, Fr. Harold and Kh. Barb all together for
                            Message 13 of 24 , Mar 10 12:02 PM
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                              You know what would be the coolest?

                              To have Dr. Scaer, his wife Dorothy, Dr. Weinrich, Roland Zeigler, Fr.
                              Sparks, Fr. Harold and Kh. Barb all together for Happy hour and BBQ then a
                              big long conversation about theology. If I could choose the topic it would
                              be, "What does it mean to be created in the image and likeness of God?"
                              Even better...to have Bishop JOSEPH there too. WOW!!! That would be
                              amazing!

                              Dr. Scaer and Dorothy came up to Alaska a few years ago to speak at a
                              conference and we got the privilege to host them. We also spent a day on a
                              glacier cruise with them and driving from Homer, to Seward and back to Eagle
                              River. They were the most warm, down to earth people you would ever want to
                              host. We have a very modest home and we had two boys 3 and 1 at the time. I
                              was so nervous, but they set me at ease immediately.

                              Our oldest son warmed up to Dr. Scaer faster than any other adult he had
                              met, even his own Grandpa! Dr. Scaer constantly held Ian's hand and helped
                              him cross streets. He kept him engaged in conversation about everything
                              they saw.

                              Dorothy impressed me so much too. The first thing she said to our littlest
                              guy, James was, "How can I help you?"

                              It is painful to meditate on the loss that we all suffer from Christ's
                              church being so divided. I know that the Holy Spirit is working how he
                              wills and God's plans are not our plans, but we get in the way of his plans
                              so much! We are so full of pride and resist being united here on Earth. If
                              only the Reformers and the Patriarch of Constantinople could have gotten
                              over their pride and cultural barriers way back when....sigh!

                              Heaven is going to be amazing!!

                              In Christ,
                              Laura
                            • Reader Christopher
                              ... doctrine ... right, ... Anastasia has often said something to the effect of, Works are not how we earn salvation, they are salvation. Salvation is not
                              Message 14 of 24 , Mar 12 9:19 AM
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                                --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Laura <lfrizelle@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > correction, you probably caught it already, but...
                                >
                                > Dr. David Scaer said in his essay "Sanctification in the Lutheran
                                > Confessions" published in the July 1989 issue of Concordia Theological
                                > Quarterly
                                >
                                > "Lutheranism is the only one among WESTERN religions that offers a
                                doctrine
                                > of ...sanctification...which is not intrinsically moralistic."
                                >
                                > Do you think he means to say that the Eastern Orthodox also have it
                                right,
                                > meaning not moralistic?
                                >
                                > Do any of you who are already Orthodox view deification as moralistic?
                                >
                                > Peace,
                                > Laura
                                >


                                Anastasia has often said something to the effect of, "Works are not
                                how we earn salvation, they are salvation." Salvation is not just
                                being forgiven our debts, but in being conformed to the likeness of
                                Christ. St. Anthony the Great defined union with God as doing what God
                                does. The important thing to remember, and it is riddled throughout
                                the prayers before Communion, is that we are unworthy and have not
                                conformed ourselves to Christ's image - and yet we dare to approach
                                because Christ allowed the sinful woman, the woman with an issue of
                                blood, the persecutor, etc. to come to him. He do not question God's
                                love and care for us because of our unworthiness and His ability to
                                purify us of our sins by His presence, we question our own ability to
                                receive "without condemnation" Christ in all His glory.

                                The whole matrix of justification/sanctification seems to me to be a
                                grasping at 'security' in God being good to me. The whole point is in
                                getting God to be good *to me*, and not upholding His goodness,
                                regardless of what I get out of it. Questioning our salvation is
                                different than questioning whether God loves me.

                                Christopher
                              • Laura Frizelle
                                Thanks Reader Christopher, Well said. For a long time now I have felt like Lutheranism is lacking or confused in the area of teaching sanctification and so far
                                Message 15 of 24 , Mar 12 12:46 PM
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                                  Thanks Reader Christopher,

                                  Well said.

                                  For a long time now I have felt like Lutheranism is lacking
                                  or confused in the area of teaching sanctification and so
                                  far it seems like E.O. has a better, more holistic even more
                                  biblical view in the area of how works relate to salvation.

                                  I guess like anything, we sinners can get this wrong and
                                  twist sanctification or theosis all up whether we are
                                  Lutheran or Orthodox, but I look forward to being part of a
                                  church that doesn't dodge good works and out of Romophobia
                                  or whatever.

                                  Peace in Christ,
                                  Laura
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