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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Keep us in your prayers

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  • ANATASIA THEODORIDIS
    You shall certainly have my prayers! This is what the body of Christ is for, so we can pray for one another, when some of us can t pray, and have faith for
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 7, 2007
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      You shall certainly have my prayers! This is what the body of Christ is for, so we can pray for one another, when some of us can't pray, and have faith for one another when some of us are shaken.

      I'm SO sorry this hasn't been working for your family and I'm begging God to help you find a way to make it work very well for all. EVEN if it has to wait until the kids are older.

      lots of love,
      Anastasia

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Brian Fink
      To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 7:26 AM
      Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Keep us in your prayers


      Dear list,

      Academically, my first year at Holy Cross was great, with an A- average. However, my family has had a very rough time of it, especially my kids. As a result, I have been told to take a year leave of absence from school to spend time with my family. So we are moving to a southern suburb of Boston and I just started an evening part time job back in the computer field for a financial consulting firm. My faith has really taken some hits over the last two months when this all started to go down. I would appreciate your prayers as I seem to have a hard time praying myself.

      Sincerely,
      Brian

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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    • Eric Perich
      I think a lot of good ideas can come from your post on Evolution and Orthodoxy, as I saw it more to be a post on Orthodox interpretation of Scripture and the
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 7, 2007
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        I think a lot of good ideas can come from your post on Evolution and
        Orthodoxy, as I saw it more to be a post on Orthodox interpretation of
        Scripture and the development of Orthodox doctrine in general, rather than
        just about Creation and Evolution specifically. I think a focus on the
        three 'levels' of meaning: literal, typological, and allegorical would be
        good. Also, some general talk about apophatic theology would be good. One
        thing I notice about the Orthodox in relation to the West is that they are
        willing to say I don't know or we don't know where the west feels a need to
        prove everything in a much more rational, scientific manner.

        Comparing denominational differences in the authority of scripture is really
        comparing differences in the interpretation of scripture. No Christian
        denies the supreme authority of scripture, they just disagree in the best
        interpretation. Catholics believe only the Pope can properly interpret
        Scripture, Orthodox place more emphasis on the Church Fathers and the
        evolving tradition throughout Christian history, Lutherans look to the Book
        of Concord, Protestants believe anyone can without limit, etc. Perhaps some
        talk about the Vincentian canon in this respect is beneficial.

        On 7/5/07, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:
        >
        > I am humbled at having been invited to present at "Faith of Our Fathers:
        > A
        > Colloquium on Orthodoxy for Lutherans" at the St. Andrew House - Center
        > for
        > Orthodox Christian Studies in Detroit <http://www.orthodoxdetroit.com/>
        > this
        > September 10-11. This will be the second in a series that began this past
        > January with "Faith of Our Fathers: A Colloquium on Orthodoxy for
        > Anglicans". The series' "purpose will be enlightenment, not evangelization
        > -
        > we're not seeking to steal shepherds or sheep. Unlike the colloquium for
        > Anglicans, however, the one for Lutherans will focus on doctrine."
        >
        > I think this is worthwhile. As I have said many times in the past in
        > dialogue with non-Orthodox friends, there is enough we disagree on
        > already,
        > we don't need to make things up. Events such as this are 'good ecumenism'
        > whereby we can simply share what we truly believe (witness) and get to
        > know
        > better, perhaps, what others believe, as well, via their questions and
        > concerns. We are all of us honest seekers of the Truth, not simply
        > partisans
        > for a given side, right or wrong. Religion should not be an theological
        > version of Yankees vs. Red Sox.
        >
        > Speakers at the Colloquium will be addressing doctrinal issues that (will
        > likely) include:
        >
        > - The Nature of the Church
        > - The Virgin Mary and the Saints
        > - Prayer and Worship
        > - Bishops and Apostolic Succession
        > - The Authority of Scripture
        > - Orthodox Confessions of Faith
        > - Doctrines of Justification
        > - Ancestral and Original Sin
        >
        > I have been asked to speak on "The Authority of Scripture" as both an
        > active, Orthodox layman and a representative convert hailing from the WELS
        > branch of Lutheranism.
        >
        > *Here's where I need help from former Lutherans that are now Orthodox.* In
        > true Orthodox fashion, I am looking to others (laity, clergy, monastics,
        > current and former Lutherans, and others) and not simply to myself for
        > answers. I am looking for:
        >
        > - Questions that former Lutherans had regarding the Orthodox position
        > on the authority of Scripture,
        > - Answers to said questions (not simply "I think", but examples of the
        > Orthodox teaching or practice that helped clarify your understanding of
        > the
        > Orthodox Church's position, with quotations and citations, ideally),
        > - Citations, stories or practices that effectively illustrate the
        > Orthodox position on Scripture, e.g., patristic quotes (ancient or
        > modern), lives of the saints (ancient or modern), prayers & hymns of the
        > Church, compare/contrast quotes from Lutheran sources vis a vis the stated
        > or practiced Orthodox position (Chemnitz said x, but Chrysostom said y;
        > Basil said a, but always practiced b), etc.
        > - Your own experiences as former Lutherans wrestling with the Orthodox
        > position (which can include personal experiences and your own
        > argumentation
        > for/against the Orthodox or Lutheran positions).
        >
        > As you can see, I am especially looking for sources about what the Church,
        > the saints and other, ancient and modern, have said regarding the
        > authority
        > of Scriptures in the Orthodox Church - especially as this regards
        > questions
        > Lutherans might have. I am not looking to critique Lutheranism; I am
        > looking
        > to faithfully express the Orthodox position, and where it might be
        > appropriate, to address questions that might be specific to Lutherans on
        > this topic. I am also trying to limit myself to sources in English that
        > are
        > readily available either for purchase, online, or in the library of the
        > average Orthodox priest or parish. This will be a layman's view and
        > understanding of the Orthodox position on "The Authority of Scripture" and
        > not that of an academic, which I am not. However, patristic and scholarly
        > academic arguments are welcome and will be used as appropriate.
        >
        > *Here's where I need help from current Lutherans interested in a better
        > understanding of Orthodoxy:* To best address the real concerns of
        > Lutherans
        > regarding "The Authority of Scripture" in Orthodoxy, it would be extremely
        > helpful for you to share a bullet point list questions that Lutherans
        > would
        > have concerning the authority of Scripture in Orthodox theology and
        > practice. This should reflect what Lutherans of various kinds might ask
        > since the conference may include ELCA, LCMS and WELS faithful, and
        > not simply those of more 'liberal', conservative', 'evangelical' or
        > 'catholic/orthodox' bents.
        >
        > I am not planning on laying out a thesis/anthithesis refutation since I
        > don't want to pan or attempt to refute Lutheranism as much as explain the
        > Orthodox position - with special regard for the specific kinds of
        > questions
        > that Lutherans might have. Since I haven't been Lutheran in a long time,
        > it
        > would be good to get some help laying out what those questions might be,
        > and
        > where those questions are authoritatively raised in the Lutheran corpus
        > (Bible, Book of Concord, Luther, Chemnitz, Pieper, modern catechisms,
        > etc.)
        >
        > I will probably use these questions as part of a 'shadow structure' for
        > laying out the Orthodox understanding - the audience can then make their
        > own connections and determine whether the Orthodox position better
        > expresses
        > the faith of the Apostles and the proof at hand.
        > I thank you all in advance for any help you may be able to provide. Feel
        > free to contact me off-list, if you prefer.
        >
        > Also, please share this request with any and all current or former
        > Lutherans
        > that would be willing and able to help.
        >
        > Christopher
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jeremy Finck
        This is really exciting, Christopher. I don t think I ll be able to afford to make the trip up to Detroit from MO, but I m definitely going to keep my eyes
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 7, 2007
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          This is really exciting, Christopher. I don't think I'll be able to afford
          to make the trip up to Detroit from MO, but I'm definitely going to keep my
          eyes and ears peeled for and downloads and/or publications from this event.
          I'm a born and bred LCMS Lutheran, recent convert to Orthodoxy.
          I'll have to second Rev. Asburry. Ultimately, on the Lutheran end of
          things, it boils down to the interpretation and receiving of the
          Scriptures. Exploring the comparisons/contrasts between the Lutheran
          clerical vow to uphold the Lutheran Tradition of interpreting Scripture
          according to either the Augsburg Confession or the entire Book of Concord
          with Orthodoxy's unified view of Scripture and Tradition is definitely worth
          exploring.
          In my search for Truth, I found most Lutherans (including pastors) to be in
          denial on that point (i.e. the point that, at best, they received and
          interpreted the Scriptures within an existing tradition, and at worst even
          threw in their own interpretation in on a few points). And those who deny
          that they even have tradition to begin with have a very hard time
          questioning it; interpreting our questions to be doubting God's revelation,
          rather than a particular and late tradition of interpretation of a modified
          Canon.
          The more I dug into Lutheran history along side of Church History in
          general, the issues of how we received the current Canon of Scriptures and
          Scriptural interpretation became the strongest point of tension for me.
          It's an extremely uncomfortable area for most Lutherans. One that is not
          easily faced. But, IMHO, that's really the heart of the issue for a
          Lutheran.

          Bishop Mark of the Antiochian Archdiocese gave a great lecture on the
          "Formation of the Canon of Scripture" to All Saints of North America,
          Antiochian Mission in St. Louis last summer. You can download it from our
          website:
          http://www.allsaints-stl.org/writing.shtml
          It's in two very large files. But well worth listening to. He covers a LOT
          of ground.

          All that said, you do a very good job of bringing up the commonalities and
          good aspects of the Lutheran faith. You have helped me to see it in a much
          better light than when I was a Lutheran myself.
          Thank you for that. I pray that your words will be well received, whatever
          topic(s) you chose.

          Our prayers are with you, Christopher.
          Thank you again for all your work.


          (John) Jeremy Finck



          On 7/5/07, Randy Asburry <r.asburry@...> wrote:
          >
          > Christopher,
          >
          > Thank you very much for the "heads up" on the upcoming conference. And
          > congratulations on the honor of being asked to present! Fr. Fenton had
          > mentioned that such a conference was in the works, and I indicated to him
          > that I will certainly do my very best to attend. Since he did not have
          > specific dates at the time we talked, I'm glad to receive the information
          > on
          > when the conference will take place. Thanks again!
          >
          > As to your question to Lutherans, let me pose a just a few bullet points
          > that may aide you in your preparations (or spark other questions on this
          > list):
          >
          > * When Orthodox Christians speak of Scripture and its authority, they
          > usually do so by keeping Scripture intimately connected to/within Holy
          > Tradition. What is the proper relationship between Scripture and
          > Tradition?
          > Does one properly "trump" the other, if necessary? If so, how?
          > * Based on that relationship, how does Orthodoxy safeguard against
          > Scripture being "overshadowed" by Tradition, as the Reformers saw the
          > problem in the Western (Roman) Church in the 15th-16th centuries? That is,
          > how is the authority of Scripture maintained so as to avoid the abuses
          > that
          > the Reformers sought to correct in the Western Church?
          > * As a former Lutheran, can you see any similar relationship -
          > Scripture & Tradition - in Lutheran theology? Can the relationship between
          > Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions be viewed as analogous, even in a
          > small way, to the Orthodox view of Scripture-Tradition?
          > * (And I don't know if you would want to venture into this one, but
          > I'll submit it for your consideration anyway ;-) Why does Luther seem to
          > appeal more to Tradition than to Scripture to defend Infant Baptism in the
          > Large Catechism (see LC, IV:49-51)? Can this be viewed as analogous or
          > similar to the Orthodox position?
          >
          > Regarding the third bullet point, Fr. Steven Salaris (All Saints'
          > Antiochian
          > Mission, St. Louis) told me the story of his time of teaching (Biology) at
          > Concordia, Bronxville. After the opening service in which he was
          > "inducted"
          > to his position and Lutherans were "installed" to their positions, he
          > asked
          > one of the Lutheran professors (I don't know who, not that it's relevant
          > anyway) what the difference was. After hearing that it was due to the
          > Lutheran vs. non-Lutheran status, Fr. Steven and the professor began
          > talking
          > about some theological differences between Lutheranism and Orthodoxy. At
          > one
          > point the professor mentioned that Lutherans, of course, hold to
          > "Scripture
          > alone," whereas Orthodox hold to "Scripture plus Tradition." To this Fr.
          > Steven responded by asking about the vow that this professor himself took
          > to
          > teach in accord with Scripture *and the Book of Concord.* He then asked
          > the
          > Lutheran professor, "Isn't that your Lutheran version of Scripture and
          > tradition?" As I recall, the conversation kind of stopped in its tracks!
          > :-)
          > So, IMO, this "parallel"/"analogy" may be worth exploring a bit.
          >
          > Hope these questions help.
          >
          > God's peace!
          >
          > Randy
          >
          > + + + + +
          > Rev. Randy Asburry
          > Hope Lutheran Church
          > St. Louis, MO
          > <mailto:r.asburry@... <r.asburry%40sbcglobal.net>> mailto:r.asburry@...<r.asburry%40sbcglobal.net>
          >
          > "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
          > conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity." (Augsburg
          > Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
          > [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>]
          > On Behalf Of Christopher Orr
          > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 7:12 PM
          > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>;
          > Anastasia Theodoridis; William
          > Weedon
          > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Request for Assistance: "The Authority of
          > Scripture"
          >
          > I am humbled at having been invited to present at "Faith of Our Fathers: A
          > Colloquium on Orthodoxy for Lutherans" at the St. Andrew House - Center
          > for
          > Orthodox Christian Studies in Detroit <http://www.orthodox
          > <http://www.orthodoxdetroit.com/> detroit.com/> this
          >
          > September 10-11. This will be the second in a series that began this past
          > January with "Faith of Our Fathers: A Colloquium on Orthodoxy for
          > Anglicans". The series' "purpose will be enlightenment, not evangelization
          > -
          > we're not seeking to steal shepherds or sheep. Unlike the colloquium for
          > Anglicans, however, the one for Lutherans will focus on doctrine."
          >
          > I think this is worthwhile. As I have said many times in the past in
          > dialogue with non-Orthodox friends, there is enough we disagree on
          > already,
          > we don't need to make things up. Events such as this are 'good ecumenism'
          > whereby we can simply share what we truly believe (witness) and get to
          > know
          > better, perhaps, what others believe, as well, via their questions and
          > concerns. We are all of us honest seekers of the Truth, not simply
          > partisans
          > for a given side, right or wrong. Religion should not be an theological
          > version of Yankees vs. Red Sox.
          >
          > Speakers at the Colloquium will be addressing doctrinal issues that (will
          > likely) include:
          >
          > - The Nature of the Church
          > - The Virgin Mary and the Saints
          > - Prayer and Worship
          > - Bishops and Apostolic Succession
          > - The Authority of Scripture
          > - Orthodox Confessions of Faith
          > - Doctrines of Justification
          > - Ancestral and Original Sin
          >
          > I have been asked to speak on "The Authority of Scripture" as both an
          > active, Orthodox layman and a representative convert hailing from the WELS
          > branch of Lutheranism.
          >
          > *Here's where I need help from former Lutherans that are now Orthodox.* In
          > true Orthodox fashion, I am looking to others (laity, clergy, monastics,
          > current and former Lutherans, and others) and not simply to myself for
          > answers. I am looking for:
          >
          > - Questions that former Lutherans had regarding the Orthodox position
          > on the authority of Scripture,
          > - Answers to said questions (not simply "I think", but examples of the
          > Orthodox teaching or practice that helped clarify your understanding of
          > the
          > Orthodox Church's position, with quotations and citations, ideally),
          > - Citations, stories or practices that effectively illustrate the
          > Orthodox position on Scripture, e.g., patristic quotes (ancient or
          > modern), lives of the saints (ancient or modern), prayers & hymns of the
          > Church, compare/contrast quotes from Lutheran sources vis a vis the stated
          > or practiced Orthodox position (Chemnitz said x, but Chrysostom said y;
          > Basil said a, but always practiced b), etc.
          > - Your own experiences as former Lutherans wrestling with the Orthodox
          > position (which can include personal experiences and your own
          > argumentation
          > for/against the Orthodox or Lutheran positions).
          >
          > As you can see, I am especially looking for sources about what the Church,
          > the saints and other, ancient and modern, have said regarding the
          > authority
          > of Scriptures in the Orthodox Church - especially as this regards
          > questions
          > Lutherans might have. I am not looking to critique Lutheranism; I am
          > looking
          > to faithfully express the Orthodox position, and where it might be
          > appropriate, to address questions that might be specific to Lutherans on
          > this topic. I am also trying to limit myself to sources in English that
          > are
          > readily available either for purchase, online, or in the library of the
          > average Orthodox priest or parish. This will be a layman's view and
          > understanding of the Orthodox position on "The Authority of Scripture" and
          > not that of an academic, which I am not. However, patristic and scholarly
          > academic arguments are welcome and will be used as appropriate.
          >
          > *Here's where I need help from current Lutherans interested in a better
          > understanding of Orthodoxy:* To best address the real concerns of
          > Lutherans
          > regarding "The Authority of Scripture" in Orthodoxy, it would be extremely
          > helpful for you to share a bullet point list questions that Lutherans
          > would
          > have concerning the authority of Scripture in Orthodox theology and
          > practice. This should reflect what Lutherans of various kinds might ask
          > since the conference may include ELCA, LCMS and WELS faithful, and
          > not simply those of more 'liberal', conservative', 'evangelical' or
          > 'catholic/orthodox' bents.
          >
          > I am not planning on laying out a thesis/anthithesis refutation since I
          > don't want to pan or attempt to refute Lutheranism as much as explain the
          > Orthodox position - with special regard for the specific kinds of
          > questions
          > that Lutherans might have. Since I haven't been Lutheran in a long time,
          > it
          > would be good to get some help laying out what those questions might be,
          > and
          > where those questions are authoritatively raised in the Lutheran corpus
          > (Bible, Book of Concord, Luther, Chemnitz, Pieper, modern catechisms,
          > etc.)
          >
          > I will probably use these questions as part of a 'shadow structure' for
          > laying out the Orthodox understanding - the audience can then make their
          > own connections and determine whether the Orthodox position better
          > expresses
          > the faith of the Apostles and the proof at hand.
          > I thank you all in advance for any help you may be able to provide. Feel
          > free to contact me off-list, if you prefer.
          >
          > Also, please share this request with any and all current or former
          > Lutherans
          > that would be willing and able to help.
          >
          > Christopher
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Randy Asburry
          Jeremy, Hi there, and thanks for the reference to the Bp. MARK talks given at All Saints. I have listened to those (even downloaded them, as I recall), and I
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 7, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Jeremy,



            Hi there, and thanks for the reference to the Bp. MARK talks given at All
            Saints. I have listened to those (even downloaded them, as I recall), and I
            agree that they are very good. Certainly gave me a lot of points to ponder.
            I also recommend them, Chris.



            Randy

            + + + + +
            Rev. Randy Asburry
            Hope Lutheran Church
            St. Louis, MO
            <mailto:r.asburry@...> mailto:r.asburry@...

            "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
            conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity." (Augsburg
            Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).



            _____

            From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy Finck
            Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 2:03 PM
            To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Request for Assistance: "The Authority
            of Scripture"



            This is really exciting, Christopher. I don't think I'll be able to afford
            to make the trip up to Detroit from MO, but I'm definitely going to keep my
            eyes and ears peeled for and downloads and/or publications from this event.
            I'm a born and bred LCMS Lutheran, recent convert to Orthodoxy.
            I'll have to second Rev. Asburry. Ultimately, on the Lutheran end of
            things, it boils down to the interpretation and receiving of the
            Scriptures. Exploring the comparisons/contrasts between the Lutheran
            clerical vow to uphold the Lutheran Tradition of interpreting Scripture
            according to either the Augsburg Confession or the entire Book of Concord
            with Orthodoxy's unified view of Scripture and Tradition is definitely worth
            exploring.
            In my search for Truth, I found most Lutherans (including pastors) to be in
            denial on that point (i.e. the point that, at best, they received and
            interpreted the Scriptures within an existing tradition, and at worst even
            threw in their own interpretation in on a few points). And those who deny
            that they even have tradition to begin with have a very hard time
            questioning it; interpreting our questions to be doubting God's revelation,
            rather than a particular and late tradition of interpretation of a modified
            Canon.
            The more I dug into Lutheran history along side of Church History in
            general, the issues of how we received the current Canon of Scriptures and
            Scriptural interpretation became the strongest point of tension for me.
            It's an extremely uncomfortable area for most Lutherans. One that is not
            easily faced. But, IMHO, that's really the heart of the issue for a
            Lutheran.

            Bishop Mark of the Antiochian Archdiocese gave a great lecture on the
            "Formation of the Canon of Scripture" to All Saints of North America,
            Antiochian Mission in St. Louis last summer. You can download it from our
            website:
            http://www.allsaint <http://www.allsaints-stl.org/writing.shtml>
            s-stl.org/writing.shtml
            It's in two very large files. But well worth listening to. He covers a LOT
            of ground.

            All that said, you do a very good job of bringing up the commonalities and
            good aspects of the Lutheran faith. You have helped me to see it in a much
            better light than when I was a Lutheran myself.
            Thank you for that. I pray that your words will be well received, whatever
            topic(s) you chose.

            Our prayers are with you, Christopher.
            Thank you again for all your work.

            (John) Jeremy Finck

            On 7/5/07, Randy Asburry <r.asburry@sbcglobal
            <mailto:r.asburry%40sbcglobal.net> .net> wrote:
            >
            > Christopher,
            >
            > Thank you very much for the "heads up" on the upcoming conference. And
            > congratulations on the honor of being asked to present! Fr. Fenton had
            > mentioned that such a conference was in the works, and I indicated to him
            > that I will certainly do my very best to attend. Since he did not have
            > specific dates at the time we talked, I'm glad to receive the information
            > on
            > when the conference will take place. Thanks again!
            >
            > As to your question to Lutherans, let me pose a just a few bullet points
            > that may aide you in your preparations (or spark other questions on this
            > list):
            >
            > * When Orthodox Christians speak of Scripture and its authority, they
            > usually do so by keeping Scripture intimately connected to/within Holy
            > Tradition. What is the proper relationship between Scripture and
            > Tradition?
            > Does one properly "trump" the other, if necessary? If so, how?
            > * Based on that relationship, how does Orthodoxy safeguard against
            > Scripture being "overshadowed" by Tradition, as the Reformers saw the
            > problem in the Western (Roman) Church in the 15th-16th centuries? That is,
            > how is the authority of Scripture maintained so as to avoid the abuses
            > that
            > the Reformers sought to correct in the Western Church?
            > * As a former Lutheran, can you see any similar relationship -
            > Scripture & Tradition - in Lutheran theology? Can the relationship between
            > Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions be viewed as analogous, even in a
            > small way, to the Orthodox view of Scripture-Tradition?
            > * (And I don't know if you would want to venture into this one, but
            > I'll submit it for your consideration anyway ;-) Why does Luther seem to
            > appeal more to Tradition than to Scripture to defend Infant Baptism in the
            > Large Catechism (see LC, IV:49-51)? Can this be viewed as analogous or
            > similar to the Orthodox position?
            >
            > Regarding the third bullet point, Fr. Steven Salaris (All Saints'
            > Antiochian
            > Mission, St. Louis) told me the story of his time of teaching (Biology) at
            > Concordia, Bronxville. After the opening service in which he was
            > "inducted"
            > to his position and Lutherans were "installed" to their positions, he
            > asked
            > one of the Lutheran professors (I don't know who, not that it's relevant
            > anyway) what the difference was. After hearing that it was due to the
            > Lutheran vs. non-Lutheran status, Fr. Steven and the professor began
            > talking
            > about some theological differences between Lutheranism and Orthodoxy. At
            > one
            > point the professor mentioned that Lutherans, of course, hold to
            > "Scripture
            > alone," whereas Orthodox hold to "Scripture plus Tradition." To this Fr.
            > Steven responded by asking about the vow that this professor himself took
            > to
            > teach in accord with Scripture *and the Book of Concord.* He then asked
            > the
            > Lutheran professor, "Isn't that your Lutheran version of Scripture and
            > tradition?" As I recall, the conversation kind of stopped in its tracks!
            > :-)
            > So, IMO, this "parallel"/"analogy" may be worth exploring a bit.
            >
            > Hope these questions help.
            >
            > God's peace!
            >
            > Randy
            >
            > + + + + +
            > Rev. Randy Asburry
            > Hope Lutheran Church
            > St. Louis, MO
            > <mailto:r.asburry@sbcglobal <mailto:r.asburry%40sbcglobal.net> .net
            <r.asburry%40sbcglobal.net>> mailto:r.asburry@sbcglobal
            <mailto:r.asburry%40sbcglobal.net> .net<r.asburry%40sbcglobal.net>
            >
            > "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
            > conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity." (Augsburg
            > Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).
            >
            > _____
            >
            > From: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
            t@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
            > [mailto:LutheransLookingEas
            <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
            t@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>]
            > On Behalf Of Christopher Orr
            > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 7:12 PM
            > To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
            t@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>;
            > Anastasia Theodoridis; William
            > Weedon
            > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Request for Assistance: "The Authority of
            > Scripture"
            >
            > I am humbled at having been invited to present at "Faith of Our Fathers: A
            > Colloquium on Orthodoxy for Lutherans" at the St. Andrew House - Center
            > for
            > Orthodox Christian Studies in Detroit <http://www.orthodox
            > <http://www.orthodox <http://www.orthodoxdetroit.com/> detroit.com/>
            detroit.com/> this
            >
            > September 10-11. This will be the second in a series that began this past
            > January with "Faith of Our Fathers: A Colloquium on Orthodoxy for
            > Anglicans". The series' "purpose will be enlightenment, not evangelization
            > -
            > we're not seeking to steal shepherds or sheep. Unlike the colloquium for
            > Anglicans, however, the one for Lutherans will focus on doctrine."
            >
            > I think this is worthwhile. As I have said many times in the past in
            > dialogue with non-Orthodox friends, there is enough we disagree on
            > already,
            > we don't need to make things up. Events such as this are 'good ecumenism'
            > whereby we can simply share what we truly believe (witness) and get to
            > know
            > better, perhaps, what others believe, as well, via their questions and
            > concerns. We are all of us honest seekers of the Truth, not simply
            > partisans
            > for a given side, right or wrong. Religion should not be an theological
            > version of Yankees vs. Red Sox.
            >
            > Speakers at the Colloquium will be addressing doctrinal issues that (will
            > likely) include:
            >
            > - The Nature of the Church
            > - The Virgin Mary and the Saints
            > - Prayer and Worship
            > - Bishops and Apostolic Succession
            > - The Authority of Scripture
            > - Orthodox Confessions of Faith
            > - Doctrines of Justification
            > - Ancestral and Original Sin
            >
            > I have been asked to speak on "The Authority of Scripture" as both an
            > active, Orthodox layman and a representative convert hailing from the WELS
            > branch of Lutheranism.
            >
            > *Here's where I need help from former Lutherans that are now Orthodox.* In
            > true Orthodox fashion, I am looking to others (laity, clergy, monastics,
            > current and former Lutherans, and others) and not simply to myself for
            > answers. I am looking for:
            >
            > - Questions that former Lutherans had regarding the Orthodox position
            > on the authority of Scripture,
            > - Answers to said questions (not simply "I think", but examples of the
            > Orthodox teaching or practice that helped clarify your understanding of
            > the
            > Orthodox Church's position, with quotations and citations, ideally),
            > - Citations, stories or practices that effectively illustrate the
            > Orthodox position on Scripture, e.g., patristic quotes (ancient or
            > modern), lives of the saints (ancient or modern), prayers & hymns of the
            > Church, compare/contrast quotes from Lutheran sources vis a vis the stated
            > or practiced Orthodox position (Chemnitz said x, but Chrysostom said y;
            > Basil said a, but always practiced b), etc.
            > - Your own experiences as former Lutherans wrestling with the Orthodox
            > position (which can include personal experiences and your own
            > argumentation
            > for/against the Orthodox or Lutheran positions).
            >
            > As you can see, I am especially looking for sources about what the Church,
            > the saints and other, ancient and modern, have said regarding the
            > authority
            > of Scriptures in the Orthodox Church - especially as this regards
            > questions
            > Lutherans might have. I am not looking to critique Lutheranism; I am
            > looking
            > to faithfully express the Orthodox position, and where it might be
            > appropriate, to address questions that might be specific to Lutherans on
            > this topic. I am also trying to limit myself to sources in English that
            > are
            > readily available either for purchase, online, or in the library of the
            > average Orthodox priest or parish. This will be a layman's view and
            > understanding of the Orthodox position on "The Authority of Scripture" and
            > not that of an academic, which I am not. However, patristic and scholarly
            > academic arguments are welcome and will be used as appropriate.
            >
            > *Here's where I need help from current Lutherans interested in a better
            > understanding of Orthodoxy:* To best address the real concerns of
            > Lutherans
            > regarding "The Authority of Scripture" in Orthodoxy, it would be extremely
            > helpful for you to share a bullet point list questions that Lutherans
            > would
            > have concerning the authority of Scripture in Orthodox theology and
            > practice. This should reflect what Lutherans of various kinds might ask
            > since the conference may include ELCA, LCMS and WELS faithful, and
            > not simply those of more 'liberal', conservative', 'evangelical' or
            > 'catholic/orthodox' bents.
            >
            > I am not planning on laying out a thesis/anthithesis refutation since I
            > don't want to pan or attempt to refute Lutheranism as much as explain the
            > Orthodox position - with special regard for the specific kinds of
            > questions
            > that Lutherans might have. Since I haven't been Lutheran in a long time,
            > it
            > would be good to get some help laying out what those questions might be,
            > and
            > where those questions are authoritatively raised in the Lutheran corpus
            > (Bible, Book of Concord, Luther, Chemnitz, Pieper, modern catechisms,
            > etc.)
            >
            > I will probably use these questions as part of a 'shadow structure' for
            > laying out the Orthodox understanding - the audience can then make their
            > own connections and determine whether the Orthodox position better
            > expresses
            > the faith of the Apostles and the proof at hand.
            > I thank you all in advance for any help you may be able to provide. Feel
            > free to contact me off-list, if you prefer.
            >
            > Also, please share this request with any and all current or former
            > Lutherans
            > that would be willing and able to help.
            >
            > Christopher
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Eric Perich
            I am a born and bred LCMS Lutheran also and while travel is not an issue since I live about 30 minutes from St. Andrew, I am afraid that scheduling will be as
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 7, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              I am a born and bred LCMS Lutheran also and while travel is not an issue
              since I live about 30 minutes from St. Andrew, I am afraid that scheduling
              will be as the conference is being held on a Tuesday and Wednesday, and I
              work during the week. As a Lutheran considering a move to the east, I would
              very much like to attend, and with it being for "enlightenment and not
              evangelization" bring family, too, so that they can hopefully understand
              better in a nonthreatening manner. Why do they hold these during the week,
              rather than on the weekend?

              On 7/7/07, Jeremy Finck <AdonaiUplifts@...> wrote:
              >
              > This is really exciting, Christopher. I don't think I'll be able to
              > afford
              > to make the trip up to Detroit from MO, but I'm definitely going to keep
              > my
              > eyes and ears peeled for and downloads and/or publications from this
              > event.
              > I'm a born and bred LCMS Lutheran, recent convert to Orthodoxy.
              > I'll have to second Rev. Asburry. Ultimately, on the Lutheran end of
              > things, it boils down to the interpretation and receiving of the
              > Scriptures. Exploring the comparisons/contrasts between the Lutheran
              > clerical vow to uphold the Lutheran Tradition of interpreting Scripture
              > according to either the Augsburg Confession or the entire Book of Concord
              > with Orthodoxy's unified view of Scripture and Tradition is definitely
              > worth
              > exploring.
              > In my search for Truth, I found most Lutherans (including pastors) to be
              > in
              > denial on that point (i.e. the point that, at best, they received and
              > interpreted the Scriptures within an existing tradition, and at worst even
              > threw in their own interpretation in on a few points). And those who deny
              > that they even have tradition to begin with have a very hard time
              > questioning it; interpreting our questions to be doubting God's
              > revelation,
              > rather than a particular and late tradition of interpretation of a
              > modified
              > Canon.
              > The more I dug into Lutheran history along side of Church History in
              > general, the issues of how we received the current Canon of Scriptures and
              > Scriptural interpretation became the strongest point of tension for me.
              > It's an extremely uncomfortable area for most Lutherans. One that is not
              > easily faced. But, IMHO, that's really the heart of the issue for a
              > Lutheran.
              >
              > Bishop Mark of the Antiochian Archdiocese gave a great lecture on the
              > "Formation of the Canon of Scripture" to All Saints of North America,
              > Antiochian Mission in St. Louis last summer. You can download it from our
              > website:
              > http://www.allsaints-stl.org/writing.shtml
              > It's in two very large files. But well worth listening to. He covers a LOT
              > of ground.
              >
              > All that said, you do a very good job of bringing up the commonalities and
              > good aspects of the Lutheran faith. You have helped me to see it in a much
              > better light than when I was a Lutheran myself.
              > Thank you for that. I pray that your words will be well received, whatever
              > topic(s) you chose.
              >
              > Our prayers are with you, Christopher.
              > Thank you again for all your work.
              >
              > (John) Jeremy Finck
              >
              >
              > On 7/5/07, Randy Asburry <r.asburry@...<r.asburry%40sbcglobal.net>>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Christopher,
              > >
              > > Thank you very much for the "heads up" on the upcoming conference. And
              > > congratulations on the honor of being asked to present! Fr. Fenton had
              > > mentioned that such a conference was in the works, and I indicated to
              > him
              > > that I will certainly do my very best to attend. Since he did not have
              > > specific dates at the time we talked, I'm glad to receive the
              > information
              > > on
              > > when the conference will take place. Thanks again!
              > >
              > > As to your question to Lutherans, let me pose a just a few bullet points
              > > that may aide you in your preparations (or spark other questions on this
              > > list):
              > >
              > > * When Orthodox Christians speak of Scripture and its authority, they
              > > usually do so by keeping Scripture intimately connected to/within Holy
              > > Tradition. What is the proper relationship between Scripture and
              > > Tradition?
              > > Does one properly "trump" the other, if necessary? If so, how?
              > > * Based on that relationship, how does Orthodoxy safeguard against
              > > Scripture being "overshadowed" by Tradition, as the Reformers saw the
              > > problem in the Western (Roman) Church in the 15th-16th centuries? That
              > is,
              > > how is the authority of Scripture maintained so as to avoid the abuses
              > > that
              > > the Reformers sought to correct in the Western Church?
              > > * As a former Lutheran, can you see any similar relationship -
              > > Scripture & Tradition - in Lutheran theology? Can the relationship
              > between
              > > Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions be viewed as analogous, even in a
              > > small way, to the Orthodox view of Scripture-Tradition?
              > > * (And I don't know if you would want to venture into this one, but
              > > I'll submit it for your consideration anyway ;-) Why does Luther seem to
              > > appeal more to Tradition than to Scripture to defend Infant Baptism in
              > the
              > > Large Catechism (see LC, IV:49-51)? Can this be viewed as analogous or
              > > similar to the Orthodox position?
              > >
              > > Regarding the third bullet point, Fr. Steven Salaris (All Saints'
              > > Antiochian
              > > Mission, St. Louis) told me the story of his time of teaching (Biology)
              > at
              > > Concordia, Bronxville. After the opening service in which he was
              > > "inducted"
              > > to his position and Lutherans were "installed" to their positions, he
              > > asked
              > > one of the Lutheran professors (I don't know who, not that it's relevant
              > > anyway) what the difference was. After hearing that it was due to the
              > > Lutheran vs. non-Lutheran status, Fr. Steven and the professor began
              > > talking
              > > about some theological differences between Lutheranism and Orthodoxy. At
              > > one
              > > point the professor mentioned that Lutherans, of course, hold to
              > > "Scripture
              > > alone," whereas Orthodox hold to "Scripture plus Tradition." To this Fr.
              > > Steven responded by asking about the vow that this professor himself
              > took
              > > to
              > > teach in accord with Scripture *and the Book of Concord.* He then asked
              > > the
              > > Lutheran professor, "Isn't that your Lutheran version of Scripture and
              > > tradition?" As I recall, the conversation kind of stopped in its tracks!
              > > :-)
              > > So, IMO, this "parallel"/"analogy" may be worth exploring a bit.
              > >
              > > Hope these questions help.
              > >
              > > God's peace!
              > >
              > > Randy
              > >
              > > + + + + +
              > > Rev. Randy Asburry
              > > Hope Lutheran Church
              > > St. Louis, MO
              > > <mailto:r.asburry@... <r.asburry%40sbcglobal.net> <
              > r.asburry%40sbcglobal.net>> mailto:r.asburry@...<r.asburry%40sbcglobal.net>
              > <r.asburry%40sbcglobal.net>
              > >
              > > "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
              > > conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity."
              > (Augsburg
              > > Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).
              > >
              > > _____
              > >
              > > From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
              > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
              > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>]
              > > On Behalf Of Christopher Orr
              > > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 7:12 PM
              > > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
              > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>;
              > > Anastasia Theodoridis; William
              > > Weedon
              > > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Request for Assistance: "The Authority
              > of
              > > Scripture"
              > >
              > > I am humbled at having been invited to present at "Faith of Our Fathers:
              > A
              > > Colloquium on Orthodoxy for Lutherans" at the St. Andrew House - Center
              > > for
              > > Orthodox Christian Studies in Detroit <http://www.orthodox
              > > <http://www.orthodoxdetroit.com/> detroit.com/> this
              > >
              > > September 10-11. This will be the second in a series that began this
              > past
              > > January with "Faith of Our Fathers: A Colloquium on Orthodoxy for
              > > Anglicans". The series' "purpose will be enlightenment, not
              > evangelization
              > > -
              > > we're not seeking to steal shepherds or sheep. Unlike the colloquium for
              > > Anglicans, however, the one for Lutherans will focus on doctrine."
              > >
              > > I think this is worthwhile. As I have said many times in the past in
              > > dialogue with non-Orthodox friends, there is enough we disagree on
              > > already,
              > > we don't need to make things up. Events such as this are 'good
              > ecumenism'
              > > whereby we can simply share what we truly believe (witness) and get to
              > > know
              > > better, perhaps, what others believe, as well, via their questions and
              > > concerns. We are all of us honest seekers of the Truth, not simply
              > > partisans
              > > for a given side, right or wrong. Religion should not be an theological
              > > version of Yankees vs. Red Sox.
              > >
              > > Speakers at the Colloquium will be addressing doctrinal issues that
              > (will
              > > likely) include:
              > >
              > > - The Nature of the Church
              > > - The Virgin Mary and the Saints
              > > - Prayer and Worship
              > > - Bishops and Apostolic Succession
              > > - The Authority of Scripture
              > > - Orthodox Confessions of Faith
              > > - Doctrines of Justification
              > > - Ancestral and Original Sin
              > >
              > > I have been asked to speak on "The Authority of Scripture" as both an
              > > active, Orthodox layman and a representative convert hailing from the
              > WELS
              > > branch of Lutheranism.
              > >
              > > *Here's where I need help from former Lutherans that are now Orthodox.*
              > In
              > > true Orthodox fashion, I am looking to others (laity, clergy, monastics,
              > > current and former Lutherans, and others) and not simply to myself for
              > > answers. I am looking for:
              > >
              > > - Questions that former Lutherans had regarding the Orthodox position
              > > on the authority of Scripture,
              > > - Answers to said questions (not simply "I think", but examples of the
              > > Orthodox teaching or practice that helped clarify your understanding of
              > > the
              > > Orthodox Church's position, with quotations and citations, ideally),
              > > - Citations, stories or practices that effectively illustrate the
              > > Orthodox position on Scripture, e.g., patristic quotes (ancient or
              > > modern), lives of the saints (ancient or modern), prayers & hymns of the
              > > Church, compare/contrast quotes from Lutheran sources vis a vis the
              > stated
              > > or practiced Orthodox position (Chemnitz said x, but Chrysostom said y;
              > > Basil said a, but always practiced b), etc.
              > > - Your own experiences as former Lutherans wrestling with the Orthodox
              > > position (which can include personal experiences and your own
              > > argumentation
              > > for/against the Orthodox or Lutheran positions).
              > >
              > > As you can see, I am especially looking for sources about what the
              > Church,
              > > the saints and other, ancient and modern, have said regarding the
              > > authority
              > > of Scriptures in the Orthodox Church - especially as this regards
              > > questions
              > > Lutherans might have. I am not looking to critique Lutheranism; I am
              > > looking
              > > to faithfully express the Orthodox position, and where it might be
              > > appropriate, to address questions that might be specific to Lutherans on
              > > this topic. I am also trying to limit myself to sources in English that
              > > are
              > > readily available either for purchase, online, or in the library of the
              > > average Orthodox priest or parish. This will be a layman's view and
              > > understanding of the Orthodox position on "The Authority of Scripture"
              > and
              > > not that of an academic, which I am not. However, patristic and
              > scholarly
              > > academic arguments are welcome and will be used as appropriate.
              > >
              > > *Here's where I need help from current Lutherans interested in a better
              > > understanding of Orthodoxy:* To best address the real concerns of
              > > Lutherans
              > > regarding "The Authority of Scripture" in Orthodoxy, it would be
              > extremely
              > > helpful for you to share a bullet point list questions that Lutherans
              > > would
              > > have concerning the authority of Scripture in Orthodox theology and
              > > practice. This should reflect what Lutherans of various kinds might ask
              > > since the conference may include ELCA, LCMS and WELS faithful, and
              > > not simply those of more 'liberal', conservative', 'evangelical' or
              > > 'catholic/orthodox' bents.
              > >
              > > I am not planning on laying out a thesis/anthithesis refutation since I
              > > don't want to pan or attempt to refute Lutheranism as much as explain
              > the
              > > Orthodox position - with special regard for the specific kinds of
              > > questions
              > > that Lutherans might have. Since I haven't been Lutheran in a long time,
              > > it
              > > would be good to get some help laying out what those questions might be,
              > > and
              > > where those questions are authoritatively raised in the Lutheran corpus
              > > (Bible, Book of Concord, Luther, Chemnitz, Pieper, modern catechisms,
              > > etc.)
              > >
              > > I will probably use these questions as part of a 'shadow structure' for
              > > laying out the Orthodox understanding - the audience can then make their
              > > own connections and determine whether the Orthodox position better
              > > expresses
              > > the faith of the Apostles and the proof at hand.
              > > I thank you all in advance for any help you may be able to provide. Feel
              > > free to contact me off-list, if you prefer.
              > >
              > > Also, please share this request with any and all current or former
              > > Lutherans
              > > that would be willing and able to help.
              > >
              > > Christopher
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Brian
              Here is an update to our situation: We ve moved into an apartment complex in Norwood, MA (about 30 min south of Holy Cross). We re on all kinds of government
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 5, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Here is an update to our situation:

                We've moved into an apartment complex in Norwood, MA (about 30 min
                south of Holy Cross). We're on all kinds of government assistance
                while Im working part time doing graphic design for a consulting firm
                in Cambridge. The kids are doing much better already and we've only
                been here three weeks.

                Please continue to keep us in your prayers and thank you for your
                prayers so far.

                Grace and peace,
                Brian
              • JiMiRoYaL
                May the Lord s continued blessings be your strength, Brian.
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 10, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  May the Lord's continued blessings be your strength, Brian.

                  --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Brian" <brfinkster@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Here is an update to our situation:
                  >
                  > We've moved into an apartment complex in Norwood, MA (about 30 min
                  > south of Holy Cross). We're on all kinds of government assistance
                  > while Im working part time doing graphic design for a consulting firm
                  > in Cambridge. The kids are doing much better already and we've only
                  > been here three weeks.
                  >
                  > Please continue to keep us in your prayers and thank you for your
                  > prayers so far.
                  >
                  > Grace and peace,
                  > Brian
                  >
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.