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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Introduction

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  • Christopher Orr
    Also look at past posts on the Orthodoxy for Lutherans blog at orthodoxyforlutherans.blogspot.com. Christopher ... -- Sent from my mobile device
    Message 1 of 38 , Sep 11, 2012
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      Also look at past posts on the Orthodoxy for Lutherans blog at
      orthodoxyforlutherans.blogspot.com.

      Christopher

      On 9/11/12, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:
      > Translation is more common than is sometimes assumed, but I think it's more
      > than that in certain cases, too. I think Ben would agree.
      >
      > Christopher
      >
      >
      > On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 10:37 AM, Benjamin Harju
      > <benjamin.harju@...>wrote:
      >
      >> Maria,
      >>
      >> Welcome to the group. I am Benjamin Harju, and I was an LCMS pastor for
      >> over four years before converting to Orthodoxy. Currently I'm serving as
      >> a
      >> subdeacon in Fort Wayne, Indiana. [Pr. Futrell, thanks for trying to
      >> elevate me to deacon, but I'm afraid it didn't work. Contact my bishop
      >> for
      >> assistance ;-) ] I'm sure we all look forward to talking with you about
      >> whatever questions or issues you may have with your inquiry into holy
      >> Orthodoxy.
      >>
      >> Subdeacon Randy, I resonate with your response to Pr. Futrell. I'd like
      >> to
      >> add that the East and West developed some of their approach in isolation
      >> from one another. They try to say the same thing, but each side has its
      >> own unique circumstances that lead to unique formulations. At times
      >> understanding Orthodoxy is less about comparison and more about
      >> translation.
      >>
      >> In Christ,
      >> Sbdn. Benjamin Harju
      >>
      >> On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 9:54 AM, Wayne Whitmer <waywhit@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> > Let me know how I can find you on FB unless you find me first David.
      >> > I'm
      >> > in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
      >> >
      >> > On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 7:50 AM, David MIELKE
      >> > <davidmielke@...
      >> > >wrote:
      >> >
      >> > > **
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > > That's great, Wayne! I look forward to being a part of it.
      >> > > I currently serve an ELCA/LCMC parish in the mountains of North
      >> Carolina.
      >> > > I just completed the St. Stephens Course and am preparing to write a
      >> > > thesis.
      >> > >
      >> > > David Mielke
      >> > >
      >> > > ________________________________
      >> > > From: Wayne Whitmer <waywhit@...>
      >> > > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
      >> > > Sent: Tue, September 11, 2012 9:26:08 AM
      >> > > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Introduction
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > > I'm going to start a CLOSED group on Face Book called "Lutherans
      >> looking
      >> > > East" for anyone who may be interested in joining. Yes I'm being
      >> selfish
      >> > > in one sense as I am looking East and need a CLOSED forum to do so
      >> > > but
      >> I
      >> > > will allow members to add Members that they may be interacting with
      >> > > who
      >> > are
      >> > > considering the same. If the individuals you add are NOT Lutheran but
      >> > > Protestant of course that is fine also as "Sola Fide" and "Sola
      >> > Scriptura"
      >> > > are pretty common to all Christian faiths outside of Orthodoxy and
      >> > > Catholicism.
      >> > >
      >> > > PAX,
      >> > >
      >> > > Wayne Whitmer
      >> > >
      >> > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 8:48 PM, randall hay <stortford@...
      >> > > >wrote:
      >> > >
      >> > > > **
      >> > >
      >> > > >
      >> > > >
      >> > > > It sure is nice to see things gearing up for discussion again! I
      >> > > > have
      >> > > > always enjoyed such posts, because the group is into real
      >> > > > discussion,
      >> > > > rather than attacking.
      >> > > >
      >> > > > Pastor Futrell's reservations about Orthodoxy reflect that of many
      >> > > > correspondents, and my own before we converted 14 years ago...so I
      >> will
      >> > > try
      >> > > > to put the matter in a nutshell:
      >> > > >
      >> > > > The Lutheran Confessions, which I believe follow Rome, see the
      >> > > > image
      >> of
      >> > > > God within us to be right use of the free will; a godly life. With
      >> this
      >> > > > definition, we have completely lost the image of God, since none of
      >> us
      >> > is
      >> > > > sinless. Since we no longer bear His image, we are unable to have
      >> > > > any
      >> > > > movement of the will toward Him.
      >> > > >
      >> > > > Orthodoxy, contrariwise, sees the image of God to be indelible. It
      >> > > > is
      >> > > > defined in various ways, such as having dominion over creation;
      >> having
      >> > a
      >> > > > free will; having an immaterial, immortal soul giving life to a
      >> > material
      >> > > > body; having reason; the capacity for love, etc.
      >> > > >
      >> > > > Using definitions such as these, we have not lost the image of
      >> > God...and
      >> > > > so everyone has an inclination toward Him of some sort, no matter
      >> > > > how
      >> > > weak
      >> > > > or distorted.
      >> > > >
      >> > > > Hence, when St Paul preaches to the Athenian pagans in Acts 17, he
      >> > quotes
      >> > > > pagan poets:
      >> > > >
      >> > > > '"In him we live and move and have our being"; as even some of your
      >> > > > poets have said, "For we are indeed His offspring."'
      >> > > >
      >> > > > Why would pagan poets know anything about God, if His image was
      >> > > > obliterated in them, and they were unable to have any desire or
      >> > > > will
      >> > for
      >> > > > Him?
      >> > > >
      >> > > > 'He made...every nation of men...that they should seek God, in the
      >> > > > hope that they might feel after Him and find Him.'
      >> > > >
      >> > > > How could God hope that Gentiles would seek Him, if they were
      >> incapable
      >> > > of
      >> > > > it?
      >> > > >
      >> > > > 'From Him and through Him and to Him are all things," Rom 11:36.
      >> > > > 'All things were created in Him, through Him and for Him,' Col.
      >> > > > 1:17
      >> > > >
      >> > > > These verses that indicate that all of creation, including man, are
      >> > > > created with an orientation toward God. The image seeks the One it
      >> > > > is
      >> > an
      >> > > > image of.
      >> > > >
      >> > > > It is important to note that God put His image within us. We didn't
      >> put
      >> > > > it in ourselves!! How could we ever do that? Because God created us
      >> > that
      >> > > > way, we get no credit or grounds for boasting if our will is
      >> > > > capable
      >> > of a
      >> > > > slight movement toward God.
      >> > > >
      >> > > > In Christ,
      >> > > >
      >> > > > Subdeacon Randy
      >> > > >
      >> > > >
      >> > > >
      >> > > > >________________________________
      >> > > > > From: Richard K. Futrell <PastorFutrell@...>
      >> > > > >To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
      >> > > > >Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 2:07 PM
      >> > > > >Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Introduction
      >> > > >
      >> > > > >
      >> > > > >
      >> > > > >
      >> > > > >
      >> > > > >
      >> > > > >Maria,
      >> > > > >
      >> > > > >This group is full of converts from Lutheranism to Eastern
      >> > > > >Orthodoxy. I have especially found Deacon Benjamin Harju to be a
      >> > > > >thoughtful and well-spoken convert. There are others also in whom
      >> you
      >> > > > >can confide.
      >> > > > >
      >> > > > >I am a Lutheran and have no plans to “swim the Bosphorus.” With
      >> > > > >you, I lament what Lutheranism has become. We have strayed very
      >> > > > > far
      >> > > > >from where we started and what we (that is, Lutherans) profess to
      >> > > > >believe and practice.
      >> > > > >
      >> > > > >So, why is it that I am still Lutheran? Simply it is this: Eastern
      >> > > > >Orthodoxy sees mankind as imbued with God’s grace--even in our
      >> > > > >falleness--which enables him to respond to God’s grace. As I see
      >> > > > > it,
      >> > > > >that, in the end, turns the powerful Word of God into simply an
      >> offer.
      >> > > > >I believe it to be scriptural that we are utterly helpless in our
      >> > > > >fallenness until God comes along through the power of the Word to
      >> > > > >breathe into us the breath of spiritual life.
      >> > > > >
      >> > > > >What you will find within Eastern Orthodoxy is a profound
      >> > > > >understanding of our divine union with Christ, which they call
      >> > > > >“Theosis.” This was also part of the Reformational Lutheran
      >> > > > >understanding, which we called the “mystical union.” Sadly, we
      >> > > > >have lost much of this and have largely only seen salvation in
      >> > forensic
      >> > > > >terms—that God declares us righteous and so we are. Forensic
      >> > > > >justification is Scriptural, but scripture also describes
      >> > > > > salvation
      >> in
      >> > > > >many different way: ransomed, healed, rescued, restored, etc. When
      >> we
      >> > > > >(or anyone) largely focus on one, we lose the fullness of what it
      >> > means
      >> > > > >to be saved.
      >> > > > >
      >> > > > >Eastern Orthodoxy sees theosis as salvation; Lutherans see it as a
      >> > > > >result of salvation. Also, within Eastern Orthodoxy, they don’t
      >> > > > >change and mess around with the liturgy. Lutherans are supposed to
      >> be
      >> > > > >that way, only making changes because the purity of the Gospel
      >> > > > > would
      >> > > > >demand such changes. But, alas, Lutherans have become the wild
      >> > > > > west
      >> of
      >> > > > >liturgical freedom and abuse.
      >> > > > >
      >> > > > >So, I find myself in a Church that has a good paper confession but
      >> > > > >does not live it out. You will find Eastern Orthodoxy more of a
      >> Church
      >> > > > >without a confession, in that, it has a living tradition that
      >> > continues
      >> > > > >to this day. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. I pray that
      >> > > > >you find peace and Jesus Christ in whichever Communion you find is
      >> > > > >truest to the Scriptures.
      >> > > > >
      >> > > > >Many former Lutherans have "gone East," and, unlike some, I do not
      >> > > > >see them as forsaking their salvation. Maria, in short, where will
      >> you
      >> > > > >best find Jesus Christ and Him crucified? If you find Him better
      >> > > > > in
      >> > > > >Eastern Orthodoxy because Lutheranism has so strayed and bought
      >> > > > > into
      >> > > > >the nonsense of modern-day Protestantism, I wish you well. If you
      >> find
      >> > > > >Him better in a Lutheran Church that is truly Lutheran, I also
      >> > > > > wish
      >> > you
      >> > > > >well.
      >> > > > >
      >> > > > >Pr. RF
      >> > > > >
      >> > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >> > > > >
      >> > > > >
      >> > > > >
      >> > > > >
      >> > > > >
      >> > > >
      >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >> > > >
      >> > > >
      >> > > >
      >> > >
      >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >> > >
      >> > > ------------------------------------
      >> > >
      >> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > ------------------------------------
      >> >
      >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >>
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> ------------------------------------
      >>
      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >

      --
      Sent from my mobile device
    • Benjamin Harju
      Christopher s advice is spot-on, as usual. In reading about your liturgical experience in Lutheranism, all I can say is that I had the same sort of experience.
      Message 38 of 38 , Sep 14, 2012
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        Christopher's advice is spot-on, as usual.

        In reading about your liturgical experience in Lutheranism, all I can say
        is that I had the same sort of experience. I think the search for meaning
        and authenticity in liturgical worship is what draws a lot of us to
        Orthodoxy. While anger and frustration and maybe even exhaustion from the
        squabbling, distrust, and lack of security in Lutheranism can drive us to
        expecting "perfection" in another place, the search for truly catholic and
        orthodox worship is not itself a running away, but a running towards the
        Truth we are thirsting after.

        But if new age worship is such a problem, and the catholic and orthodox
        worship of the Orthodox Church is such a wonderful thing, then (in order to
        avoid personal delusion) it's important to put Christopher's advice into
        practice. The worship in the public liturgy must be carried into the
        home. Introduce a simple but regular routine, and stay with it.

        In Orthodoxy the Liturgy IS the Faith. It's okay to run to that, if it is
        THAT which you are trying to get, but which Lutheranism is incapable of
        giving you. Just keep in mind that we human beings are not so simple:
        while running toward the right things we often bring unrealistic
        expectations at the same time. Take your time. Don't rush. Face each
        thing one at a time, the good and the bad. Christ is faithful; He will
        lead you into all truth. Chase down Christ. Prayer is how to do it.

        In Christ,
        Benjamin Harju

        On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > Here's the translation of the Prayer Book I use (well, an updated version,
        > but theses introductory or Trisagion prayers are the same), common in ROCOR
        > and some OCA:
        >
        > http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/prayerbook/main.htm
        >
        > This seems to be the Greek translation:
        >
        > http://www.transchurch.org/prayers.html#daily
        >
        > Antiochian:
        >
        > http://www.antiochian.org/morning-prayers
        > http://www.antiochian.org/evening-prayers
        >
        > Others are easy to find online. I would recommend using whatever
        > translation is used at the parish you visit or attend most often.
        >
        > Christopher
        >
        >
        > On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 9:38 AM, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:
        >
        > > I would caution that conversion simply *from* one faith to another is
        > > bound to be problematic. We can't convert out of anger. We can only
        > > convert *to*, and out of love for God is love and he is the
        > > destination.
        > >
        > > Obviously, there are always factors that cause us to begin looing or
        > > to be open to alternatives, and these are often infruriating, hurtful,
        > > etc., but the actual conversion must be because of the truth, merit,
        > > beauty of what is found: the pearl of great price.
        > >
        > > May the Lord and his saints care for you in your inquiry.
        > >
        > > If you aren't praying regularly, start. Morning and evening. Try
        > > saying just the introductory prayers from the prayer book: O Heavenly
        > > King, Holy God, Most Holy Trinity, Our Father (translations vary for
        > > these prayers). Or, the Jesus Prayer, but regularly. You can't think
        > > your way through this, regardless of where you land.
        > >
        > > Christopher
        > >
        > > On 9/14/12, mygourami <mygourami@...> wrote:
        > > >> So, I find myself in a Church that has a good paper confession but
        > > >> does not live it out. You will find Eastern Orthodoxy more of a Church
        > > >> without a confession, in that, it has a living tradition that
        > continues
        > > >> to this day. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. I pray that
        > > >> you find peace and Jesus Christ in whichever Communion you find is
        > > >> truest to the Scriptures.
        > > >>
        > > >> Many former Lutherans have "gone East," and, unlike some, I do not
        > > >> see them as forsaking their salvation. Maria, in short, where will you
        > > >> best find Jesus Christ and Him crucified? If you find Him better in
        > > >> Eastern Orthodoxy because Lutheranism has so strayed and bought into
        > > >> the nonsense of modern-day Protestantism, I wish you well. If you find
        > > >> Him better in a Lutheran Church that is truly Lutheran, I also wish
        > you
        > > >> well.
        > > >>
        > > >> Pr. RF
        > > >
        > > > We have actually spent over a year visiting other Lutheran-LCMS within
        > > our
        > > > area and one out of state while visiting relatives. They are all over
        > the
        > > > map, so to say. I actually cried at one when they projected on the
        > > screens
        > > > some mindless dribble 'song' where they had the kids repeat a single
        > > phrase
        > > > over and over and we left before the song ended. Our own church is
        > being
        > > > torn apart by what my husband and I call 'new age' Christians, dont
        > know
        > > > what the current term for them is. We did find one church where the
        > > pastor
        > > > still sung the liturgy, uses the red hymnal, and has traditional
        > Lutheran
        > > > Advent and Lenten seasons - why we became Lutheran in the first
        > > place...yet
        > > > he is in his late 30's and I do not know what they are teaching at
        > > Concordia
        > > > U but they are not studying Luther, more like venomous Calvin. I do not
        > > > believe the LCMS has much of a future, when all the red-hymnal folk are
        > > > gone. I fought against the school district for years until I gave up
        > and
        > > > homeschooled my kids, I gave up campaigning for the 'conservative'
        > party
        > > and
        > > > now rally behind 3rd party candidates, and I am abandoning the sinking
        > > ship
        > > > LCMS and taking the life raft offered by the EO.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > --
        > > Sent from my mobile device
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


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