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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Infant Communion Paper

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  • Timothy Jackon
    Pr. Futrell, I look forward to reading your paper, once the group site has it up. This topic is a burning issue for me as I look east from a Lutheran pew.
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 1, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Pr. Futrell,

      I look forward to reading your paper, once the group site has it up. This
      topic is a burning issue for me as I look east from a Lutheran pew. The
      Lutheran blogosphere is not always helpful on this topic. Thanks for
      sharing the fruits of your labor with the group!

      Sincerely,
      Tim

      On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 8:17 AM, Richard K. Futrell <
      PastorFutrell@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > Chris,
      >
      > Wow, I thought you would have looked into it. I've attached the paper.
      > If you don;t want to read it, that's OK. But the historical journey
      > is very interesting and profound, as well as damning of our current
      > practices.
      >
      > --
      > Rich Futrell, Pastor
      > Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
      > http://sothl.com
      >
      > Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the
      > Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith
      > of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins,
      > His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift
      > of life for body, soul, and spirit.
      >
      > Quoting Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...>:
      > > Attachments are not allowed on Yahoo! Groups, but you can upload
      > documents
      > > to the Files section of the Group via the Group homepage at
      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LutheransLookingEast/.
      > >
      > > I can honestly say I did no wrestling with the idea of infant communion
      > > when inquiring into Orthodoxy. It seemed to be a no-brainer if one
      > already
      > > accepts infant baptism and the historical record.
      > >
      > > Christopher
      > >
      > >
      > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Richard K. Futrell <
      > > PastorFutrell@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > > **
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > For some reason, the document is not attached. If you'd like to read
      > > > and comment, please send me an e-mail and I'll e-mail it to you.
      > > >
      > > > --
      > > > Rich Futrell, Pastor
      > > > Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
      > > > http://sothl.com
      > > >
      > > > Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the
      > > > Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith
      > > > of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins,
      > > > His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift
      > > > of life for body, soul, and spirit.
      > > >
      > > > Quoting "Richard K. Futrell"
      > > >
      > > > :
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Hello,
      > > >
      > > > For those of you who are Eastern Orthodox, I am going to take some
      > > > liberty and ask you to look "west" for a bit. I have finished my final
      > > > draft for a paper on infant communion. Since this is a topic that many
      > > > of you may have wrestled with while still Lutheran, you may have
      > > > insights that I do not have.
      > > >
      > > > For Lutherans in this group, I am approaching this topic, not so much
      > > > from a "Eastern" perspective, but a biblical and catholic (and only
      > > > Eastern in that sense) one. Your comments are also desired.
      > > >
      > > > I do ask that this not be disseminated widely by you. This is a debate
      > > > that needs to take place within Lutheranism. This simply happens to be
      > > > an area where our theologies should be very close--but aren't!
      > > >
      > > > The paper is attached in this e-mail.
      > > >
      > > > I would like it if you would send any comments you may have to my
      > > > e-mail and not the Lutheran Looking East e-mail group.
      > > >
      > > > Thanks,
      > > >
      > > > Rich Futrell
      > > >
      > > > --
      > > > Rich Futrell, Pastor
      > > > Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
      > > > http://sothl.com
      > > >
      > > > Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the
      > > > Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith
      > > > of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins,
      > > > His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift
      > > > of life for body, soul, and spirit.
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • matt reader
      Patrick Foeder (sp?), a former LCMS pastor and now EOC layman, has written a very compelling and detailed analysis of this from the historical and Lutheran
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 1, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Patrick Foeder (sp?), a former LCMS pastor and now EOC layman, has written a very compelling and detailed analysis of this from the historical and Lutheran pov. I have it somewhere, but perhaps one of you already has it and can upload it. It covers all the bases.
        Matt 


        ________________________________
        From: Richard K. Futrell <PastorFutrell@...>
        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2011 9:35 AM
        Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Infant Communion Paper


         
        Tim,

        I hope you don't swim the Bosphorus. But, even so, we within
        Lutheranism are seriously amiss here. I think you will find the paper
        interesting--especially historically.

        --
        Rich Futrell, Pastor
        Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
        http://sothl.com

        Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the
        Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith
        of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins,
        His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift
        of life for body, soul, and spirit.

        Quoting Timothy Jackon <timothy.jackson87@...>:
        > Pr. Futrell,
        >
        > I look forward to reading your paper, once the group site has it up. This
        > topic is a burning issue for me as I look east from a Lutheran pew. The
        > Lutheran blogosphere is not always helpful on this topic. Thanks for
        > sharing the fruits of your labor with the group!
        >
        > Sincerely,
        > Tim
        >
        > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 8:17 AM, Richard K. Futrell <
        > PastorFutrell@...> wrote:
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > > Chris,
        > >
        > > Wow, I thought you would have looked into it. I've attached the paper.
        > > If you don;t want to read it, that's OK. But the historical journey
        > > is very interesting and profound, as well as damning of our current
        > > practices.
        > >
        > > --
        > > Rich Futrell, Pastor
        > > Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
        > > http://sothl.com
        > >
        > > Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the
        > > Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith
        > > of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins,
        > > His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift
        > > of life for body, soul, and spirit.
        > >
        > > Quoting Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...>:
        > > > Attachments are not allowed on Yahoo! Groups, but you can upload
        > > documents
        > > > to the Files section of the Group via the Group homepage at
        > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LutheransLookingEast/.
        > > >
        > > > I can honestly say I did no wrestling with the idea of infant communion
        > > > when inquiring into Orthodoxy. It seemed to be a no-brainer if one
        > > already
        > > > accepts infant baptism and the historical record.
        > > >
        > > > Christopher
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Richard K. Futrell <
        > > > PastorFutrell@...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > > **
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > For some reason, the document is not attached. If you'd like to read
        > > > > and comment, please send me an e-mail and I'll e-mail it to you.
        > > > >
        > > > > --
        > > > > Rich Futrell, Pastor
        > > > > Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
        > > > > http://sothl.com
        > > > >
        > > > > Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the
        > > > > Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith
        > > > > of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins,
        > > > > His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift
        > > > > of life for body, soul, and spirit.
        > > > >
        > > > > Quoting "Richard K. Futrell"
        > > > >
        > > > > :
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Hello,
        > > > >
        > > > > For those of you who are Eastern Orthodox, I am going to take some
        > > > > liberty and ask you to look "west" for a bit. I have finished my final
        > > > > draft for a paper on infant communion. Since this is a topic that many
        > > > > of you may have wrestled with while still Lutheran, you may have
        > > > > insights that I do not have.
        > > > >
        > > > > For Lutherans in this group, I am approaching this topic, not so much
        > > > > from a "Eastern" perspective, but a biblical and catholic (and only
        > > > > Eastern in that sense) one. Your comments are also desired.
        > > > >
        > > > > I do ask that this not be disseminated widely by you. This is a debate
        > > > > that needs to take place within Lutheranism. This simply happens to be
        > > > > an area where our theologies should be very close--but aren't!
        > > > >
        > > > > The paper is attached in this e-mail.
        > > > >
        > > > > I would like it if you would send any comments you may have to my
        > > > > e-mail and not the Lutheran Looking East e-mail group.
        > > > >
        > > > > Thanks,
        > > > >
        > > > > Rich Futrell
        > > > >
        > > > > --
        > > > > Rich Futrell, Pastor
        > > > > Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
        > > > > http://sothl.com
        > > > >
        > > > > Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the
        > > > > Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith
        > > > > of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins,
        > > > > His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift
        > > > > of life for body, soul, and spirit.
        > > > >
        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >
        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ------------------------------------
        > > >
        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Timothy Jackon
        I think what you are referencing can be found here: http://www.paedocommunion.com/links.php by Rev Fr Patrick S. Fodor ... [Non-text portions of this message
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 1, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          I think what you are referencing can be found here:
          http://www.paedocommunion.com/links.php by Rev Fr Patrick S. Fodor

          On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 9:03 AM, matt reader <mattyreader@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > Patrick Foeder (sp?), a former LCMS pastor and now EOC layman, has written
          > a very compelling and detailed analysis of this from the historical and
          > Lutheran pov. I have it somewhere, but perhaps one of you already has it
          > and can upload it. It covers all the bases.
          > Matt
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: Richard K. Futrell <PastorFutrell@...>
          > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2011 9:35 AM
          > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Infant Communion Paper
          >
          >
          >
          > Tim,
          >
          > I hope you don't swim the Bosphorus. But, even so, we within
          > Lutheranism are seriously amiss here. I think you will find the paper
          > interesting--especially historically.
          >
          > --
          > Rich Futrell, Pastor
          > Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
          > http://sothl.com
          >
          > Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the
          > Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith
          > of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins,
          > His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift
          > of life for body, soul, and spirit.
          >
          > Quoting Timothy Jackon <timothy.jackson87@...>:
          > > Pr. Futrell,
          > >
          > > I look forward to reading your paper, once the group site has it up. This
          > > topic is a burning issue for me as I look east from a Lutheran pew. The
          > > Lutheran blogosphere is not always helpful on this topic. Thanks for
          > > sharing the fruits of your labor with the group!
          > >
          > > Sincerely,
          > > Tim
          > >
          > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 8:17 AM, Richard K. Futrell <
          > > PastorFutrell@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > > **
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Chris,
          > > >
          > > > Wow, I thought you would have looked into it. I've attached the paper.
          > > > If you don;t want to read it, that's OK. But the historical journey
          > > > is very interesting and profound, as well as damning of our current
          > > > practices.
          > > >
          > > > --
          > > > Rich Futrell, Pastor
          > > > Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
          > > > http://sothl.com
          > > >
          > > > Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the
          > > > Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith
          > > > of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins,
          > > > His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift
          > > > of life for body, soul, and spirit.
          > > >
          > > > Quoting Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...>:
          > > > > Attachments are not allowed on Yahoo! Groups, but you can upload
          > > > documents
          > > > > to the Files section of the Group via the Group homepage at
          > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LutheransLookingEast/.
          > > > >
          > > > > I can honestly say I did no wrestling with the idea of infant
          > communion
          > > > > when inquiring into Orthodoxy. It seemed to be a no-brainer if one
          > > > already
          > > > > accepts infant baptism and the historical record.
          > > > >
          > > > > Christopher
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Richard K. Futrell <
          > > > > PastorFutrell@...> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > > **
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > For some reason, the document is not attached. If you'd like to
          > read
          > > > > > and comment, please send me an e-mail and I'll e-mail it to you.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --
          > > > > > Rich Futrell, Pastor
          > > > > > Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
          > > > > > http://sothl.com
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with
          > the
          > > > > > Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the
          > faith
          > > > > > of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of
          > sins,
          > > > > > His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious
          > gift
          > > > > > of life for body, soul, and spirit.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Quoting "Richard K. Futrell"
          > > > > >
          > > > > > :
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Hello,
          > > > > >
          > > > > > For those of you who are Eastern Orthodox, I am going to take some
          > > > > > liberty and ask you to look "west" for a bit. I have finished my
          > final
          > > > > > draft for a paper on infant communion. Since this is a topic that
          > many
          > > > > > of you may have wrestled with while still Lutheran, you may have
          > > > > > insights that I do not have.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > For Lutherans in this group, I am approaching this topic, not so
          > much
          > > > > > from a "Eastern" perspective, but a biblical and catholic (and only
          > > > > > Eastern in that sense) one. Your comments are also desired.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I do ask that this not be disseminated widely by you. This is a
          > debate
          > > > > > that needs to take place within Lutheranism. This simply happens
          > to be
          > > > > > an area where our theologies should be very close--but aren't!
          > > > > >
          > > > > > The paper is attached in this e-mail.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I would like it if you would send any comments you may have to my
          > > > > > e-mail and not the Lutheran Looking East e-mail group.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Thanks,
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Rich Futrell
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --
          > > > > > Rich Futrell, Pastor
          > > > > > Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
          > > > > > http://sothl.com
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with
          > the
          > > > > > Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the
          > faith
          > > > > > of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of
          > sins,
          > > > > > His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious
          > gift
          > > > > > of life for body, soul, and spirit.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > > >
          > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > ------------------------------------
          > > > >
          > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Christopher Orr
          Thanks for sending this. I will definitely take a look at it. I m starting a new job today and we had a new baby about two weeks ago, so it will probably
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 1, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks for sending this. I will definitely take a look at it. I'm
            starting a new job today and we had a new baby about two weeks ago, so it
            will probably take some time for me to get to it, though.

            Like I said, once you accept the historical record of the Church as a piece
            of the evidence for the true Church (and not just Scripture), something
            like infant communion is accepted easily. In fact, accepting infant
            communion was more of a by product of resolving other, more primary (to me)
            questions than it was its own focus. The Church as the Body of Christ (not
            just a spiritual body of all true believers whatever their outward
            communion and practice; the Kingdom of both good and bad fishes, etc.)
            either continued to be guided by the Holy Spirit or not. If so, then...

            Christopher


            On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 8:17 AM, Richard K. Futrell <
            PastorFutrell@...> wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > Chris,
            >
            > Wow, I thought you would have looked into it. I've attached the paper.
            > If you don;t want to read it, that's OK. But the historical journey
            > is very interesting and profound, as well as damning of our current
            > practices.
            >
            > --
            > Rich Futrell, Pastor
            > Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
            > http://sothl.com
            >
            > Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the
            > Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith
            > of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins,
            > His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift
            > of life for body, soul, and spirit.
            >
            > Quoting Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...>:
            > > Attachments are not allowed on Yahoo! Groups, but you can upload
            > documents
            > > to the Files section of the Group via the Group homepage at
            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LutheransLookingEast/.
            > >
            > > I can honestly say I did no wrestling with the idea of infant communion
            > > when inquiring into Orthodoxy. It seemed to be a no-brainer if one
            > already
            > > accepts infant baptism and the historical record.
            > >
            > > Christopher
            > >
            > >
            > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Richard K. Futrell <
            > > PastorFutrell@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > > **
            >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > For some reason, the document is not attached. If you'd like to read
            > > > and comment, please send me an e-mail and I'll e-mail it to you.
            > > >
            > > > --
            > > > Rich Futrell, Pastor
            > > > Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
            > > > http://sothl.com
            > > >
            > > > Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the
            > > > Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith
            > > > of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins,
            > > > His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift
            > > > of life for body, soul, and spirit.
            > > >
            > > > Quoting "Richard K. Futrell"
            > > >
            > > > :
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Hello,
            > > >
            > > > For those of you who are Eastern Orthodox, I am going to take some
            > > > liberty and ask you to look "west" for a bit. I have finished my final
            > > > draft for a paper on infant communion. Since this is a topic that many
            > > > of you may have wrestled with while still Lutheran, you may have
            > > > insights that I do not have.
            > > >
            > > > For Lutherans in this group, I am approaching this topic, not so much
            > > > from a "Eastern" perspective, but a biblical and catholic (and only
            > > > Eastern in that sense) one. Your comments are also desired.
            > > >
            > > > I do ask that this not be disseminated widely by you. This is a debate
            > > > that needs to take place within Lutheranism. This simply happens to be
            > > > an area where our theologies should be very close--but aren't!
            > > >
            > > > The paper is attached in this e-mail.
            > > >
            > > > I would like it if you would send any comments you may have to my
            > > > e-mail and not the Lutheran Looking East e-mail group.
            > > >
            > > > Thanks,
            > > >
            > > > Rich Futrell
            > > >
            > > > --
            > > > Rich Futrell, Pastor
            > > > Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
            > > > http://sothl.com
            > > >
            > > > Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the
            > > > Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith
            > > > of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins,
            > > > His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift
            > > > of life for body, soul, and spirit.
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Rosemarie Lieffring
            Well, for me the lack of infant communion in the LCMS *was* the deal breaker. My sparse comments on the subject are elsewhere in this forum as is the
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 1, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Well, for me the lack of infant communion in the LCMS *was* the deal
              breaker. My sparse comments on the subject are elsewhere in this forum as
              is the following information.

              In the 1990's there were some Lutheran pastors in South Wisconsin district
              who drafted position papers on the subject. You can find a couple of them
              here: http://wctc.net/~gehlbach/IC/index.htm under the "Papers" link. The
              LCMS CTCR formally responded against infant communion (also at the same
              link) and quoted 1 Corinthians 11:27-28, the inability for infants to
              examine themselves, as one of the reasons. Knowing that historically the
              practice of infant communion was indeed the practice of the early church,
              that interpretation of 1 Cor 27-28 has to be in question.

              I hope you had a chance to consider these earlier works in your paper. (I
              won't be able to view the upload until I am at home tonight.)

              I am rather glad for the CTCR response. Had infant communion been adopted
              by the LCMS things might have been different and I might not have become
              Orthodox...which has come to be the greatest joy of my life. Conversely,
              my greatest regret is that our own children were not fed from infancy with
              the Body and Blood of Christ. May God have mercy on us.-----R
              On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:

              > Thanks for sending this. I will definitely take a look at it. I'm
              > starting a new job today and we had a new baby about two weeks ago, so it
              > will probably take some time for me to get to it, though.
              >
              > Like I said, once you accept the historical record of the Church as a piece
              > of the evidence for the true Church (and not just Scripture), something
              > like infant communion is accepted easily. In fact, accepting infant
              > communion was more of a by product of resolving other, more primary (to me)
              > questions than it was its own focus. The Church as the Body of Christ (not
              > just a spiritual body of all true believers whatever their outward
              > communion and practice; the Kingdom of both good and bad fishes, etc.)
              > either continued to be guided by the Holy Spirit or not. If so, then...
              >
              > Christopher
              >
              >
              > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 8:17 AM, Richard K. Futrell <
              > PastorFutrell@...> wrote:
              >
              > > **
              > >
              > >
              > > Chris,
              > >
              > > Wow, I thought you would have looked into it. I've attached the paper.
              > > If you don;t want to read it, that's OK. But the historical journey
              > > is very interesting and profound, as well as damning of our current
              > > practices.
              > >
              > > --
              > > Rich Futrell, Pastor
              > > Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
              > > http://sothl.com
              > >
              > > Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the
              > > Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith
              > > of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins,
              > > His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift
              > > of life for body, soul, and spirit.
              > >
              > > Quoting Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...>:
              > > > Attachments are not allowed on Yahoo! Groups, but you can upload
              > > documents
              > > > to the Files section of the Group via the Group homepage at
              > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LutheransLookingEast/.
              > > >
              > > > I can honestly say I did no wrestling with the idea of infant communion
              > > > when inquiring into Orthodoxy. It seemed to be a no-brainer if one
              > > already
              > > > accepts infant baptism and the historical record.
              > > >
              > > > Christopher
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Richard K. Futrell <
              > > > PastorFutrell@...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > > **
              > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > For some reason, the document is not attached. If you'd like to read
              > > > > and comment, please send me an e-mail and I'll e-mail it to you.
              > > > >
              > > > > --
              > > > > Rich Futrell, Pastor
              > > > > Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
              > > > > http://sothl.com
              > > > >
              > > > > Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the
              > > > > Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the
              > faith
              > > > > of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of
              > sins,
              > > > > His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious
              > gift
              > > > > of life for body, soul, and spirit.
              > > > >
              > > > > Quoting "Richard K. Futrell"
              > > > >
              > > > > :
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Hello,
              > > > >
              > > > > For those of you who are Eastern Orthodox, I am going to take some
              > > > > liberty and ask you to look "west" for a bit. I have finished my
              > final
              > > > > draft for a paper on infant communion. Since this is a topic that
              > many
              > > > > of you may have wrestled with while still Lutheran, you may have
              > > > > insights that I do not have.
              > > > >
              > > > > For Lutherans in this group, I am approaching this topic, not so much
              > > > > from a "Eastern" perspective, but a biblical and catholic (and only
              > > > > Eastern in that sense) one. Your comments are also desired.
              > > > >
              > > > > I do ask that this not be disseminated widely by you. This is a
              > debate
              > > > > that needs to take place within Lutheranism. This simply happens to
              > be
              > > > > an area where our theologies should be very close--but aren't!
              > > > >
              > > > > The paper is attached in this e-mail.
              > > > >
              > > > > I would like it if you would send any comments you may have to my
              > > > > e-mail and not the Lutheran Looking East e-mail group.
              > > > >
              > > > > Thanks,
              > > > >
              > > > > Rich Futrell
              > > > >
              > > > > --
              > > > > Rich Futrell, Pastor
              > > > > Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
              > > > > http://sothl.com
              > > > >
              > > > > Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the
              > > > > Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the
              > faith
              > > > > of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of
              > sins,
              > > > > His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious
              > gift
              > > > > of life for body, soul, and spirit.
              > > > >
              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > >
              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ------------------------------------
              > > >
              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Fr John W Fenton
              For those who may be interested. During my theological interview at CTS, as a condition for ordination I had to promise the interviewing professor that I would
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 1, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                For those who may be interested.



                During my theological interview at CTS, as a condition for ordination I had
                to promise the interviewing professor that I would not "promote" infant
                communion in the parishes I served as a Lutheran pastor. I kept that
                promise. However, I also raised questions at pastor (circuit) meetings and
                other gatherings, and answered truthfully when asked by parishioners.



                I raised some of those questions in the early 1990s during a meeting
                attended by Pr Marincic and Pr Gehlbach. Those questions prompted Pr
                Marincic's study and inquiry, which I read and commented on as he produced
                it. From the outset, I thought the general Lutheran answer to the question
                was exceedingly weak, and that the CTCR response was not only predictable
                but typically unincisive theology ignorant of the Lutheran hermeneutical
                tradition regarding dogmatic, historical and exegetical theology.



                I supported the move to early communion, both in my parish and in the Synod
                (LSB). My greatest joy, however, was seeing my youngest child (then, 1 yr
                old) communed by Bishop MARK immediately after his chrismation.







                Fr John W Fenton

                Priest, Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church

                LOCATION: 1385 Goddard Rd, Lincoln Park MI 48146

                MAIL: 8941 Quandt Ave, Allen Park MI 48101

                313.282.6153

                frfenton@...



                From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rosemarie
                Lieffring
                Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 12:43 PM
                To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Infant Communion Paper





                Well, for me the lack of infant communion in the LCMS *was* the deal
                breaker. My sparse comments on the subject are elsewhere in this forum as
                is the following information.

                In the 1990's there were some Lutheran pastors in South Wisconsin district
                who drafted position papers on the subject. You can find a couple of them
                here: http://wctc.net/~gehlbach/IC/index.htm under the "Papers" link. The
                LCMS CTCR formally responded against infant communion (also at the same
                link) and quoted 1 Corinthians 11:27-28, the inability for infants to
                examine themselves, as one of the reasons. Knowing that historically the
                practice of infant communion was indeed the practice of the early church,
                that interpretation of 1 Cor 27-28 has to be in question.

                I hope you had a chance to consider these earlier works in your paper. (I
                won't be able to view the upload until I am at home tonight.)

                I am rather glad for the CTCR response. Had infant communion been adopted
                by the LCMS things might have been different and I might not have become
                Orthodox...which has come to be the greatest joy of my life. Conversely,
                my greatest regret is that our own children were not fed from infancy with
                the Body and Blood of Christ. May God have mercy on us.-----R
                On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...
                <mailto:xcjorr%40gmail.com> > wrote:

                > Thanks for sending this. I will definitely take a look at it. I'm
                > starting a new job today and we had a new baby about two weeks ago, so it
                > will probably take some time for me to get to it, though.
                >
                > Like I said, once you accept the historical record of the Church as a
                piece
                > of the evidence for the true Church (and not just Scripture), something
                > like infant communion is accepted easily. In fact, accepting infant
                > communion was more of a by product of resolving other, more primary (to
                me)
                > questions than it was its own focus. The Church as the Body of Christ (not
                > just a spiritual body of all true believers whatever their outward
                > communion and practice; the Kingdom of both good and bad fishes, etc.)
                > either continued to be guided by the Holy Spirit or not. If so, then...
                >
                > Christopher
                >
                >
                > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 8:17 AM, Richard K. Futrell <
                > PastorFutrell@... <mailto:PastorFutrell%40centurytel.net> >
                wrote:
                >
                > > **
                > >
                > >
                > > Chris,
                > >
                > > Wow, I thought you would have looked into it. I've attached the paper.
                > > If you don;t want to read it, that's OK. But the historical journey
                > > is very interesting and profound, as well as damning of our current
                > > practices.
                > >
                > > --
                > > Rich Futrell, Pastor
                > > Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
                > > http://sothl.com
                > >
                > > Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the
                > > Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith
                > > of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins,
                > > His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift
                > > of life for body, soul, and spirit.
                > >
                > > Quoting Christopher Orr <xcjorr@... <mailto:xcjorr%40gmail.com> >:
                > > > Attachments are not allowed on Yahoo! Groups, but you can upload
                > > documents
                > > > to the Files section of the Group via the Group homepage at
                > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LutheransLookingEast/.
                <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LutheransLookingEast/>
                > > >
                > > > I can honestly say I did no wrestling with the idea of infant
                communion
                > > > when inquiring into Orthodoxy. It seemed to be a no-brainer if one
                > > already
                > > > accepts infant baptism and the historical record.
                > > >
                > > > Christopher
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Richard K. Futrell <
                > > > PastorFutrell@... <mailto:PastorFutrell%40centurytel.net> >
                wrote:
                > > >
                > > > > **
                > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > For some reason, the document is not attached. If you'd like to read
                > > > > and comment, please send me an e-mail and I'll e-mail it to you.
                > > > >
                > > > > --
                > > > > Rich Futrell, Pastor
                > > > > Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
                > > > > http://sothl.com
                > > > >
                > > > > Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with
                the
                > > > > Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the
                > faith
                > > > > of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of
                > sins,
                > > > > His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious
                > gift
                > > > > of life for body, soul, and spirit.
                > > > >
                > > > > Quoting "Richard K. Futrell"
                > > > >
                > > > > :
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Hello,
                > > > >
                > > > > For those of you who are Eastern Orthodox, I am going to take some
                > > > > liberty and ask you to look "west" for a bit. I have finished my
                > final
                > > > > draft for a paper on infant communion. Since this is a topic that
                > many
                > > > > of you may have wrestled with while still Lutheran, you may have
                > > > > insights that I do not have.
                > > > >
                > > > > For Lutherans in this group, I am approaching this topic, not so
                much
                > > > > from a "Eastern" perspective, but a biblical and catholic (and only
                > > > > Eastern in that sense) one. Your comments are also desired.
                > > > >
                > > > > I do ask that this not be disseminated widely by you. This is a
                > debate
                > > > > that needs to take place within Lutheranism. This simply happens to
                > be
                > > > > an area where our theologies should be very close--but aren't!
                > > > >
                > > > > The paper is attached in this e-mail.
                > > > >
                > > > > I would like it if you would send any comments you may have to my
                > > > > e-mail and not the Lutheran Looking East e-mail group.
                > > > >
                > > > > Thanks,
                > > > >
                > > > > Rich Futrell
                > > > >
                > > > > --
                > > > > Rich Futrell, Pastor
                > > > > Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
                > > > > http://sothl.com
                > > > >
                > > > > Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with
                the
                > > > > Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the
                > faith
                > > > > of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of
                > sins,
                > > > > His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious
                > gift
                > > > > of life for body, soul, and spirit.
                > > > >
                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > >
                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ------------------------------------
                > > >
                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Rosemarie Lieffring
                Well, ya learn something new every day! I didn t know you were the catalyst for Pr. Marincic s wonderful paper and a subsequent reviewer! I should have
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 1, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Well, ya learn something new every day! I didn't know you were the
                  catalyst for Pr. Marincic's wonderful paper and a subsequent reviewer! I
                  should have guessed.

                  (Was Pastor Marincic of Croatian decent? The name is only one "n" away
                  from a family name of mine, Maricic. I have a hard time imagining a
                  Croatian Lutheran...although Gregory of Nin was a little Luther-like in
                  that he fought and succeeded to allow mass to be said in the Croatian
                  language.) -----R


                  On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Fr John W Fenton <
                  frfenton@...> wrote:

                  > **
                  >
                  >
                  > For those who may be interested.
                  >
                  > During my theological interview at CTS, as a condition for ordination I had
                  > to promise the interviewing professor that I would not "promote" infant
                  > communion in the parishes I served as a Lutheran pastor. I kept that
                  > promise. However, I also raised questions at pastor (circuit) meetings and
                  > other gatherings, and answered truthfully when asked by parishioners.
                  >
                  > I raised some of those questions in the early 1990s during a meeting
                  > attended by Pr Marincic and Pr Gehlbach. Those questions prompted Pr
                  > Marincic's study and inquiry, which I read and commented on as he produced
                  > it. From the outset, I thought the general Lutheran answer to the question
                  > was exceedingly weak, and that the CTCR response was not only predictable
                  > but typically unincisive theology ignorant of the Lutheran hermeneutical
                  > tradition regarding dogmatic, historical and exegetical theology.
                  >
                  > I supported the move to early communion, both in my parish and in the Synod
                  > (LSB). My greatest joy, however, was seeing my youngest child (then, 1 yr
                  > old) communed by Bishop MARK immediately after his chrismation.
                  >
                  > Fr John W Fenton
                  >
                  > Priest, Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
                  >
                  > LOCATION: 1385 Goddard Rd, Lincoln Park MI 48146
                  >
                  > MAIL: 8941 Quandt Ave, Allen Park MI 48101
                  >
                  > 313.282.6153
                  >
                  > frfenton@...
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Fr John W Fenton
                  Pr Marincic was, indeed, of Croatian descent. He always delighted in pointing out TLH #19 which, in many copies, smeared the e so that it read All praise to
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 1, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Pr Marincic was, indeed, of Croatian descent. He always delighted in
                    pointing out TLH #19 which, in many copies, smeared the e so that it read
                    "All praise to God, who reigns above, the God of all croation."





                    Fr John W Fenton

                    Priest, Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church

                    LOCATION: 1385 Goddard Rd, Lincoln Park MI 48146

                    MAIL: 8941 Quandt Ave, Allen Park MI 48101

                    313.282.6153

                    frfenton@...



                    From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rosemarie
                    Lieffring
                    Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 4:10 PM
                    To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Infant Communion Paper





                    Well, ya learn something new every day! I didn't know you were the
                    catalyst for Pr. Marincic's wonderful paper and a subsequent reviewer! I
                    should have guessed.

                    (Was Pastor Marincic of Croatian decent? The name is only one "n" away
                    from a family name of mine, Maricic. I have a hard time imagining a
                    Croatian Lutheran...although Gregory of Nin was a little Luther-like in
                    that he fought and succeeded to allow mass to be said in the Croatian
                    language.) -----R

                    On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Fr John W Fenton <
                    frfenton@... <mailto:frfenton%40holyincarnation.org> >
                    wrote:

                    > **
                    >
                    >
                    > For those who may be interested.
                    >
                    > During my theological interview at CTS, as a condition for ordination I
                    had
                    > to promise the interviewing professor that I would not "promote" infant
                    > communion in the parishes I served as a Lutheran pastor. I kept that
                    > promise. However, I also raised questions at pastor (circuit) meetings and
                    > other gatherings, and answered truthfully when asked by parishioners.
                    >
                    > I raised some of those questions in the early 1990s during a meeting
                    > attended by Pr Marincic and Pr Gehlbach. Those questions prompted Pr
                    > Marincic's study and inquiry, which I read and commented on as he produced
                    > it. From the outset, I thought the general Lutheran answer to the question
                    > was exceedingly weak, and that the CTCR response was not only predictable
                    > but typically unincisive theology ignorant of the Lutheran hermeneutical
                    > tradition regarding dogmatic, historical and exegetical theology.
                    >
                    > I supported the move to early communion, both in my parish and in the
                    Synod
                    > (LSB). My greatest joy, however, was seeing my youngest child (then, 1 yr
                    > old) communed by Bishop MARK immediately after his chrismation.
                    >
                    > Fr John W Fenton
                    >
                    > Priest, Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
                    >
                    > LOCATION: 1385 Goddard Rd, Lincoln Park MI 48146
                    >
                    > MAIL: 8941 Quandt Ave, Allen Park MI 48101
                    >
                    > 313.282.6153
                    >
                    > frfenton@... <mailto:frfenton%40holyincarnation.org>
                    >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • randall hay
                    I m looking forward to reading it too....but for me also it was a no-brainer. Excommunicating people without cause is a grievous thing. It was also obvious to
                    Message 9 of 10 , Nov 1, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I'm looking forward to reading it too....but for me also it was a no-brainer.
                      Excommunicating people without cause is a grievous thing.


                      It was also obvious to me that little children aren't spiritually handicapped
                      because they lack "reason;" reason has led to every heresy and genocide
                      imaginable, and Jesus forbade people to keep infants from Him.

                      Once I become Orthodox and learned about the "nous" everything made much more
                      sense; but even without knowledge of this elementary Koine Greek term it was
                      clear you can't refuse Communion to people who are saved...no matter how short
                      they are.


                      R.



                      >
                      >From: Richard K. Futrell <PastorFutrell@...>
                      >To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                      >Sent: Tue, November 1, 2011 9:17:44 AM
                      >Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Infant Communion Paper
                      >
                      >
                      >Chris,
                      >
                      >Wow, I thought you would have looked into it. I've attached the paper.
                      >If you don;t want to read it, that's OK. But the historical journey
                      >is very interesting and profound, as well as damning of our current
                      >practices.
                      >
                      >--
                      >Rich Futrell, Pastor
                      >Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
                      >http://sothl.com
                      >
                      >Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the
                      >Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith
                      >of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins,
                      >His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift
                      >of life for body, soul, and spirit.
                      >
                      >Quoting Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...>:
                      >> Attachments are not allowed on Yahoo! Groups, but you can upload documents
                      >> to the Files section of the Group via the Group homepage at
                      >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LutheransLookingEast/.
                      >>
                      >> I can honestly say I did no wrestling with the idea of infant communion
                      >> when inquiring into Orthodoxy. It seemed to be a no-brainer if one already
                      >> accepts infant baptism and the historical record.
                      >>
                      >> Christopher
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Richard K. Futrell <
                      >> PastorFutrell@...> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> > **
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> > For some reason, the document is not attached. If you'd like to read
                      >> > and comment, please send me an e-mail and I'll e-mail it to you.
                      >> >
                      >> > --
                      >> > Rich Futrell, Pastor
                      >> > Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
                      >> > http://sothl.com
                      >> >
                      >> > Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the
                      >> > Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith
                      >> > of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins,
                      >> > His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift
                      >> > of life for body, soul, and spirit.
                      >> >
                      >> > Quoting "Richard K. Futrell"
                      >> >
                      >> > :
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> > Hello,
                      >> >
                      >> > For those of you who are Eastern Orthodox, I am going to take some
                      >> > liberty and ask you to look "west" for a bit. I have finished my final
                      >> > draft for a paper on infant communion. Since this is a topic that many
                      >> > of you may have wrestled with while still Lutheran, you may have
                      >> > insights that I do not have.
                      >> >
                      >> > For Lutherans in this group, I am approaching this topic, not so much
                      >> > from a "Eastern" perspective, but a biblical and catholic (and only
                      >> > Eastern in that sense) one. Your comments are also desired.
                      >> >
                      >> > I do ask that this not be disseminated widely by you. This is a debate
                      >> > that needs to take place within Lutheranism. This simply happens to be
                      >> > an area where our theologies should be very close--but aren't!
                      >> >
                      >> > The paper is attached in this e-mail.
                      >> >
                      >> > I would like it if you would send any comments you may have to my
                      >> > e-mail and not the Lutheran Looking East e-mail group.
                      >> >
                      >> > Thanks,
                      >> >
                      >> > Rich Futrell
                      >> >
                      >> > --
                      >> > Rich Futrell, Pastor
                      >> > Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
                      >> > http://sothl.com
                      >> >
                      >> > Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the
                      >> > Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith
                      >> > of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins,
                      >> > His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift
                      >> > of life for body, soul, and spirit.
                      >> >
                      >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >> >
                      >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> ------------------------------------
                      >>
                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • randall hay
                      Pastor Futrell, that was a wonderful essay! I m going to save it in my files as a reference on the topic. I would have only a couple of comments: The first is
                      Message 10 of 10 , Nov 5, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Pastor Futrell, that was a wonderful essay! I'm going to save it in my files as
                        a reference on the topic.


                        I would have only a couple of comments:

                        The first is minor. While the patriarchate of Alexandria eventually fell to the
                        Copts (who were monophysites), there remains an Orthodox patriarchate. In fact,
                        the most famous monastery in Egypt, St. Catherine of Sinai, is Orthodox.
                        Hopefully the Copts will soon become Orthodox.

                        I find Luther's saying there is "no urgency in the sacrament of the altar"
                        disturbing. If it really indeed is the true body and blood of Christ we
                        receive, there is every urgency for everyone; what could be more important than
                        the blood of Christ coursing through our veins, enlivening our corrupted souls
                        and bodies?


                        ---But really, on a larger scale, I find it sad it is that you're doing so much
                        wonderful work fighting your own denominational traditions, rather than fighting
                        the devil and his legions. Everything you said is true; but will that change
                        the LCMS? Will people be moved by what the 2nd and 3rd generation Lutherans
                        said...or Luther himself?

                        When people disagree with your assertions they take their stand on "sola
                        Scriptura"; when you disagree with their assertions, they will quote Luther.


                        The tradition "we have no tradition" trumps all others, by its very nature. It
                        is the royal flush of theology. It is the self-validating
                        holiness-on-a-corndog-stick of the Reformation.

                        Granted you won't change the LCMS. But even if you shed untold blood, sweat and
                        tears in your own parish to introduce catholic practices and beliefs, will it
                        change your parishioners? No, it won't change them; once you leave the next
                        pastor will bury all your efforts in short order.


                        The body of Christ is not a set of beliefs and practices; it is an ontology. It
                        is the "I am" of He who Is. It is His very flesh and blood.


                        I spent many years when I was in the LCMS working on changes in
                        beliefs/practices...I collected great essays like yours, wrote my own stuff,
                        made enormous files of Scripture, and even started to found a society.


                        But it got nowhere. Maybe if I had been a pastor it would have done a little
                        something for a short while; but as a layman I had virtually no effect on the
                        beliefs and practices of the LCMS or my parish. I felt loved, and pastors hated
                        to see us go; but in terms of making changes, my blood, sweat and tears amounted
                        to a hill of beans.

                        Eventually the injustice and contradictions and false hermeneutics and
                        sloganeering got to be more than I could take spiritually. I ended up tossing
                        and turning at night, fretting and getting angrier and angrier.


                        The relief when we became Orthodox was indescribable. I didn't have to argue
                        about making the sign of the cross, or kneeling, or reverence toward the
                        Eucharist, or argue about interpreting Scripture; in fact, the prayers that were
                        being sung in church were boldly proclaiming the truths that the LCMS couldn't
                        handle. I could enjoy icons, quit worrying about what my children were
                        learning, leave the French Revolution and its anti-hierarchical ethos behind,
                        and start fighting the devil. In fact, at a certain point in one service I
                        suddenly realized that instead of my judging the church's theology, the Church
                        could judge MY theology!! What a relief that was.


                        But enough. Thanks for sharing that essay with us; and I pray for you and your
                        family in your spiritual journey.


                        In Christ,

                        Randall














                        >
                        >From: Richard K. Futrell <PastorFutrell@...>
                        >To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com; LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                        >Sent: Tue, November 1, 2011 8:46:48 AM
                        >Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Infant Communion Paper
                        >
                        >
                        >For some reason, the document is not attached. If you'd like to read
                        >and comment, please send me an e-mail and I'll e-mail it to you.
                        >
                        >--
                        >Rich Futrell, Pastor
                        >Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
                        >http://sothl.com
                        >
                        >Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the
                        >Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith
                        >of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins,
                        >His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift
                        >of life for body, soul, and spirit.
                        >
                        >Quoting "Richard K. Futrell"
                        >
                        >:
                        >
                        >Hello,
                        >
                        >For those of you who are Eastern Orthodox, I am going to take some
                        >liberty and ask you to look "west" for a bit. I have finished my final
                        >draft for a paper on infant communion. Since this is a topic that many
                        >of you may have wrestled with while still Lutheran, you may have
                        >insights that I do not have.
                        >
                        >For Lutherans in this group, I am approaching this topic, not so much
                        >from a "Eastern" perspective, but a biblical and catholic (and only
                        >Eastern in that sense) one. Your comments are also desired.
                        >
                        >I do ask that this not be disseminated widely by you. This is a debate
                        >that needs to take place within Lutheranism. This simply happens to be
                        >an area where our theologies should be very close--but aren't!
                        >
                        >The paper is attached in this e-mail.
                        >
                        >I would like it if you would send any comments you may have to my
                        >e-mail and not the Lutheran Looking East e-mail group.
                        >
                        >Thanks,
                        >
                        >Rich Futrell
                        >
                        >--
                        >Rich Futrell, Pastor
                        >Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
                        >http://sothl.com
                        >
                        >Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the
                        >Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith
                        >of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins,
                        >His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift
                        >of life for body, soul, and spirit.
                        >
                        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >

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