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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Irenaeus, the Fall, and the Image of God

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  • Richard K. Futrell
    Ben, Thanks. I m not sure I m buying what you are saying, but that may be why I m Lutheran. My readings of the Fathers has primarily centered on Clement,
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 2, 2011
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      Ben,

      Thanks. I'm not sure I'm buying what you are saying, but that may be
      why I'm Lutheran. My readings of the Fathers has primarily centered on
      Clement, Polycarp, Ignatius, and Irenaeus (and the Didache), the 1st
      and 2ng generation Christians.

      But I do appreciate this forum to ask questions and to help understand
      "Eastern" thinking. As a former Lutheran, you can help "translate"
      word meanings and understandings I may not otherwise pick up.


      --
      Rich Futrell, Pastor
      Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
      http://sothl.com

      Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the
      Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith
      of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins,
      His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift
      of life for body, soul, and spirit.



      Quoting Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@...>:
      > The topic of the image of God in man is addressed differently by different
      > fathers of the Church. Some see it in man's reason, some in his free will,
      > some in his immortality. The vast majority of fathers apply the term to the
      > higher qualities of the soul of man, and a minority (including St. Irenaeus)
      > to the whole man.
      >
      > For St. Irenaeus, the image and likeness of man is a path of growth. Only
      > Christ is the actual image and likeness of God; man is made in this image
      > and likeness, that is, man is created for Christ and to be like Christ.
      > When man is created, the image and likeness is not actually demonstrated in
      > it's maturity, because man is created as a child that must grow into
      > maturity. That full maturity looks like the Incarnate Son of God, and it is
      > only when Christ comes that the image of God in man is demonstrated, via the
      > Incarnation. That the image and likeness of God is destroyed in man for St.
      > Irenaeus means that man in his child-status has been removed from the
      > pathway of growth in the Life that he received from God. Rather than
      > abiding in communion, man is held captive under Satan. It is not possible
      > for man to mature in union with God anymore, and thus St. Irenaeus says the
      > image is lost. The image is a dynamic growth in sanctity through communion
      > with God.
      >
      > While later fathers may not express the terminology of image and likeness
      > the same way, the point St. Irenaeus makes is thoroughly an Orthodox one.
      > Man is created for a Life of growth and maturity in communion with God, but
      > sin, death, and the devil have (among other things) derailed this path.
      > Christ's Incarnation accomplishes the complete healing and recapitulation of
      > man's nature in an objective fashion, and His crucifixion-resurrection frees
      > all of us from bondage so as to return to the Life of communion with God we
      > were made for. We return by being united with Christ, who recapitulated the
      > image that He is as Son in the human nature that He united to His divine
      > nature (which is our common human nature).
      >
      > In Christ,
      > Benjamin Harju
      >
      >
    • randall hay
      I might add a bit to Benjamin s reply. St Irenaeus wrote at a very early date, before terminology related to image/likeness had been dealt with at length. At
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 2, 2011
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        I might add a bit to Benjamin's reply.

        St Irenaeus wrote at a very early date, before terminology related to
        image/likeness had been dealt with at length. At another point in this work he
        states the Orthodox position in more typical terminology:


        "If the Spirit indeed is wanting in the soul, he...possesses indeed the image in
        his formation; but (does) not receive the similitude through the Spirit"
        (5.6.1).

        The image is what we're born with; we had no power to give it to ourselves, or
        to take it away. The likeness (here translated "similitude") is what we can
        lose or gain in our own spiritual walk.


        I might also remark, though, that no one person is infallible in Orthodoxy. No
        father is infallible; no patriarch, no saint, no elder. INDIVIDUALS ARE NOT
        INFALLIBLE! We don't have any popes at all. None. Zero. Only the body of
        Christ is infallible. The ecumenical councils reached infallible conclusions
        not only because they were pronounced by hierarchs, saints and theologians from
        around the world together; but because the masses of faithful at large accepted
        their rulings. There were many false ecumenical councils, which were rejected
        by the body of Christ.


        Truly, we "have the power to comprehend" the heights and depths only "with all
        the saints," Eph. 3:18.


        Some fathers made errors, and after understanding the rulings of the Church at
        large repented and confirmed. The outstanding exegete Theodorus of Cyrus, for
        example, was a Nestorian and had writings condemned the the fitfth (?)
        ecumenical council....then he realized his error, repented and ended up a saint,
        whose orthodox writings are greatly venerated and still in print.


        Not even the holy apostles reached acted as individuals when important matters
        came up...in Acts 15 they had recourse to council, and it has been the model for
        our councils since.


        The reason we do things in a conciliar way is because we're created in the image
        of the Trinity. The Gospel of John frequently points out how the Father,Son and
        Holy Spirit work in concert and unity together...but it even goes back to
        Genesis, where the Persons of the Trinity discussed our creation. "Let us make
        man in Our image."


        Hope this helps--
        R.









        ________________________________
        From: Richard <PastorFutrell@...>
        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 5:59:26 PM
        Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Irenaeus, the Fall, and the Image of God


        I understand (perhaps, incorrectly) that Eastern Orthodoxy holds that when Adam
        fell into sin, it was a fall, but that did not include the loss of the image of
        God.

        I'm reading Irenaeus' Against Heresies. He says in a couple of places that we
        lost the image of God in the Fall. Here's one quotation:

        "When [Jesus] became incarnate and was made human, he began anew the long line
        of human beings and, to state it briefly, furnished us with salvation.
        Consequently, what we had lost in Adam--namely, the image of likeness of God--we
        recovered in Christ Jesus" (Against Heresies, 3:18,1).

        I'd like an EO response and understanding on this.




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Benjamin Harju
        Pr. Futrell, What in particular are you not buying, my reading of St. Irenaeus or my comment about Orthodox theology? If St. Irenaeus, then how do you read
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 2, 2011
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          Pr. Futrell,

          What in particular are you not buying, my reading of St. Irenaeus or my
          comment about Orthodox theology? If St. Irenaeus, then how do you read the
          statements where he indicates the image was lost? What is this image for
          St. Irenaeus then?

          For the record, my instruction in St. Irenaeus comes from Concordia
          Theological Seminary and the materials I received there. My statement has
          nothing to do with Lutheranism or Orthodoxy, but with St. Irenaeus.

          In Christ,
          Benjamin Harju

          On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 11:10 AM, Richard K. Futrell <
          PastorFutrell@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > Ben,
          >
          > Thanks. I'm not sure I'm buying what you are saying, but that may be
          > why I'm Lutheran. My readings of the Fathers has primarily centered on
          > Clement, Polycarp, Ignatius, and Irenaeus (and the Didache), the 1st
          > and 2ng generation Christians.
          >
          > But I do appreciate this forum to ask questions and to help understand
          > "Eastern" thinking. As a former Lutheran, you can help "translate"
          > word meanings and understandings I may not otherwise pick up.
          >
          > --
          > Rich Futrell, Pastor
          > Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
          > http://sothl.com
          >
          > Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the
          > Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith
          > of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins,
          > His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift
          > of life for body, soul, and spirit.
          >
          > Quoting Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@...>:
          > > The topic of the image of God in man is addressed differently by
          > different
          > > fathers of the Church. Some see it in man's reason, some in his free
          > will,
          > > some in his immortality. The vast majority of fathers apply the term to
          > the
          > > higher qualities of the soul of man, and a minority (including St.
          > Irenaeus)
          > > to the whole man.
          > >
          > > For St. Irenaeus, the image and likeness of man is a path of growth. Only
          > > Christ is the actual image and likeness of God; man is made in this image
          > > and likeness, that is, man is created for Christ and to be like Christ.
          > > When man is created, the image and likeness is not actually demonstrated
          > in
          > > it's maturity, because man is created as a child that must grow into
          > > maturity. That full maturity looks like the Incarnate Son of God, and it
          > is
          > > only when Christ comes that the image of God in man is demonstrated, via
          > the
          > > Incarnation. That the image and likeness of God is destroyed in man for
          > St.
          > > Irenaeus means that man in his child-status has been removed from the
          > > pathway of growth in the Life that he received from God. Rather than
          > > abiding in communion, man is held captive under Satan. It is not possible
          > > for man to mature in union with God anymore, and thus St. Irenaeus says
          > the
          > > image is lost. The image is a dynamic growth in sanctity through
          > communion
          > > with God.
          > >
          > > While later fathers may not express the terminology of image and likeness
          > > the same way, the point St. Irenaeus makes is thoroughly an Orthodox one.
          >
          > > Man is created for a Life of growth and maturity in communion with God,
          > but
          > > sin, death, and the devil have (among other things) derailed this path.
          > > Christ's Incarnation accomplishes the complete healing and recapitulation
          > of
          > > man's nature in an objective fashion, and His crucifixion-resurrection
          > frees
          > > all of us from bondage so as to return to the Life of communion with God
          > we
          > > were made for. We return by being united with Christ, who recapitulated
          > the
          > > image that He is as Son in the human nature that He united to His divine
          > > nature (which is our common human nature).
          > >
          > > In Christ,
          > > Benjamin Harju
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Richard K. Futrell
          Ben, I just take it that when Irenaeus says that we lost the image of God in the Fall, that s what he means. We lost it completely. I happen to agree with
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 2, 2011
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            Ben,

            I just take it that when Irenaeus says that we lost the image of God in the Fall, that's what he means. We lost it completely. I happen to agree with Irenaeus.

            Ben, I may be understanding what you are saying incorrectly. Here’s what I hear you saying:

            Ben’s words: "That the image and likeness of God is destroyed in man for St. Irenaeus means that man in his child-status has been removed from the pathway of growth in the Life that he received from God."

            What Rich hears: Lost image = being stuck in an immature status and unable to grow. Thus, the lost image was not really lost but stuck in a state of immaturity until Christ comes into the person’s life. If so, then

            - Ben: The image of God that is lost is only seriously wounded and diminished until Christ starts to vivify it.
            - Rich: The image is completely gone and begins to be restored when Christ comes into a person’s life.

            Is my understanding of your word accurate?

            Rich
          • Christopher Orr
            I m not sure what the original Greek (or Latin) is or how this section may be translated differently, but in the selection you provided, Irenaeus is not saying
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 2, 2011
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              I'm not sure what the original Greek (or Latin) is or how this section may
              be translated differently, but in the selection you provided, Irenaeus is
              not saying saying we (in Adam) lost the "image of God" but the " the image
              of likeness of God". I take this latter phrase to mean basically
              "likeness".

              Coindidentally, I read an interview with Sr. Nonna (Verna) Harrison this
              morning on her new book, *God's Many-Splendored Image: Theological
              Anthropology for Christian Formation* (Baker Academic, 2010),
              207pp<http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Many-Splendored-Image-Theological-Anthropology/dp/080103471X?ie=UTF8&tag=eastern-20&link_code=btl&camp=213689&creative=392969>,
              about which the publisher tells us:

              *What does it mean to be a human being made in the image of God? This book
              makes the case that the divine image can be seen in not just one or two
              aspects of human identity but in all of them. *The author, a specialist in
              early Christianity, reveals the light that leading theologians of the early
              church shed on contemporary discussions of what it means to be human. Each
              chapter explores a different facet of the divine image and likeness and maps
              out a path that can lead toward wholeness and holiness. This fresh approach
              to theological anthropology brings Greek patristic theology to students in a
              readable fashion. [emphasis mine - CO]*
              *

              In the interview, Sr. Nonna "highlights a different facet of the image of
              God in humankind:

              (1) our freedom of choice;
              > (2) our relationship with God and with Christ;
              > (3) our capacity to perceive spiritual realities;
              > (4) the many human virtues;
              > (5) the dignity of every human person;
              > (6)the necessity of the body in fulfilling our vocation as God�s image;
              > (7) our roles in the crested world;
              > (8) the practice of the arts and sciences;
              > (9) human community as image of the Holy Trinity;
              >
              > and in conclusion, the inexhaustible mystery of the image of God."
              >

              In short, I don't think one can easily summarize what "that Eastern
              Orthodoxy holds" concerning the image of God - or just about any theological
              point, unlike the "German" systematics of Lutheranism or the "Latin" book
              theology of Catholicism. Salvation isn't boiled down to anything as simple
              and straightforward as "justification by grace alone through faith alone" -
              and that isn't to know the doctrine, just to note its succinct statement in
              contrast to the lack of summarization in Orthodoxy, period.

              The entire interview with Sr. Nonna can be read
              here<http://easternchristianbooks.blogspot.com/2011/07/interview-sr-nonna-harrison-on-gods.html>
              .

              A summary of the image and likeness distinction can be found starting on p.
              50 of Met. Kallistos Ware's "The Orthodox Way" (see
              here<http://books.google.com/books?id=WpE8MwHLffEC&lpg=PA52&ots=Ds3pDEfMWN&dq=ware%20image%20likeness&pg=PA50#v=onepage&q=image&f=false>)
              or p. 219 of his "The Orthodox Church" (see
              here<Man:%20his%20creation,%20his%20vocation,%20his%20failure%20%20%E2%80%98Thou%20hast%20made%20us%20for%20Thyself%20and%20our%20hearts%20are%20restless%20till%20they%20rest%20in%20Thee.%E2%80%99%20%28Augustine,%20Confessions,%201,%201%29%20Man%20was%20made%20for%20fellowship%20with%20God:%20this%20is%20the%20first%20and%20primary%20affirmation%20in%20the%20Christian%20doctrine%20of%20man.%20But%20man,%20made%20for%20fellowship%20with%20God,%20everywhere%20repudiates%20that%20fellowship:%20this%20is%20the%20second%20fact%20which%20all%20Christian%20anthropology%20takes%20into%20account.%20Man%20was%20made%20for%20fellowship%20with%20God:%20in%20the%20language%20of%20the%20Church,%20God%20created%20Adam%20according%20to%20His%20image%20and%20likeness,%20and%20set%20him%20in%20Paradise%20%28The%20opening%20chapters%20of%20Genesis%20are%20of%20course%20concerned%20with%20certain%20religious%20truths,%20and%20are%20not%20to%20be%20taken%20as%20literal%20history.%20Fifteen%20centuries%20before%20modern%20Biblical%20criticism,%20Greek%20Fathers%20were%20already%20interpreting%20the%20Creation%20and%20Paradise%20stories%20symbolically%20rather%20than%20literally%29.%20Man%20everywhere%20repudiates%20that%20fellowship:%20in%20the%20language%20of%20the%20Church,%20Adam%20fell,%20and%20his%20fall%20%E2%80%94%20his%20%E2%80%98original%20sin%E2%80%99%20%E2%80%94%20has%20affected%20all%20mankind.%20%20The%20Creation%20of%20Man.%20%22And%20God%20said,%20let%20us%20make%20man%20according%20to%20our%20image%20and%20likeness%22%20%28Genesis%201:26%29.%20God%20speaks%20in%20the%20plural:%20%22Let%20us%20make%20man.%22%20The%20creation%20of%20man,%20so%20the%20Greek%20Fathers%20continually%20emphasized,%20was%20an%20act%20of%20all%20three%20persons%20in%20the%20Trinity,%20and%20therefore%20the%20image%20and%20likeness%20of%20God%20must%20always%20be%20thought%20of%20as%20a%20Trinitarian%20image%20and%20likeness.%20We%20shall%20find%20that%20this%20is%20a%20point%20of%20vital%20importance.%20%20Image%20and%20Likeness.>),
              as well as in "The Image And Likeness Of God" by Dr. Darren J. Torbic (see
              here <http://www.stgeorgeserbian.us/darren/darren03.htm>), not to mention
              Vladimir Lossky's "In the Image and Likeness of God".

              I would also note that part of what's being said here is that the
              incarnation, life, suffering, death, resurrection and ascension of Christ
              has renewed human nature. Not only is the pre-lapsarian and post-lapsarian
              distinction important when discussing what man can and cannot do, even more
              important is what man can and cannot do before Christ and after Christ,
              before our nature was united to the divine nature in the person of Christ
              and after that significant, ontological change in our very substance. We
              are saved by grace alone, but that grace was given in the Incarnation, et al
              to all of human nature - it isn't simply a reserved gift given individually
              to some who will be saved. Since Christ, we really can cooperate with God
              in our salvation, because of what he did for us, by grace alone, then.

              Christopher

              PS. let me know if the links I provided above came through or not.


              On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 4:59 PM, Richard <PastorFutrell@...>wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > I understand (perhaps, incorrectly) that Eastern Orthodoxy holds that when
              > Adam fell into sin, it was a fall, but that did not include the loss of the
              > image of God.
              >
              > I'm reading Irenaeus' Against Heresies. He says in a couple of places that
              > we lost the image of God in the Fall. Here's one quotation:
              >
              > "When [Jesus] became incarnate and was made human, he began anew the long
              > line of human beings and, to state it briefly, furnished us with salvation.
              > Consequently, what we had lost in Adam--namely, the image of likeness of
              > God--we recovered in Christ Jesus" (Against Heresies, 3:18,1).
              >
              > I'd like an EO response and understanding on this.
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Christopher Orr
              Sorry, that should have been and that isn t to KNOCK the doctrine and don t think one can easily summarize what Eastern Orthodoxy holds concerning the
              Message 6 of 15 , Jul 2, 2011
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                Sorry, that should have been "and that isn't to KNOCK the doctrine" and "don't
                think one can easily summarize what 'Eastern Orthodoxy holds' concerning the
                image of God". I'm sure there were other mistakes. It's late, and hot, and
                I was out with a two year old all day. Please forgive.

                Christopher



                On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 11:57 PM, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:

                > I'm not sure what the original Greek (or Latin) is or how this section may
                > be translated differently, but in the selection you provided, Irenaeus is
                > not saying saying we (in Adam) lost the "image of God" but the " the image
                > of likeness of God". I take this latter phrase to mean basically
                > "likeness".
                >
                > Coindidentally, I read an interview with Sr. Nonna (Verna) Harrison this
                > morning on her new book, *God's Many-Splendored Image: Theological
                > Anthropology for Christian Formation* (Baker Academic, 2010), 207pp<http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Many-Splendored-Image-Theological-Anthropology/dp/080103471X?ie=UTF8&tag=eastern-20&link_code=btl&camp=213689&creative=392969>,
                > about which the publisher tells us:
                >
                > *What does it mean to be a human being made in the image of God? This book
                > makes the case that the divine image can be seen in not just one or two
                > aspects of human identity but in all of them. *The author, a specialist in
                > early Christianity, reveals the light that leading theologians of the early
                > church shed on contemporary discussions of what it means to be human. Each
                > chapter explores a different facet of the divine image and likeness and maps
                > out a path that can lead toward wholeness and holiness. This fresh approach
                > to theological anthropology brings Greek patristic theology to students in a
                > readable fashion. [emphasis mine - CO]*
                > *
                >
                > In the interview, Sr. Nonna "highlights a different facet of the image of
                > God in humankind:
                >
                > (1) our freedom of choice;
                >> (2) our relationship with God and with Christ;
                >> (3) our capacity to perceive spiritual realities;
                >> (4) the many human virtues;
                >> (5) the dignity of every human person;
                >> (6)the necessity of the body in fulfilling our vocation as God�s image;
                >> (7) our roles in the crested world;
                >> (8) the practice of the arts and sciences;
                >> (9) human community as image of the Holy Trinity;
                >>
                >> and in conclusion, the inexhaustible mystery of the image of God."
                >>
                >
                > In short, I don't think one can easily summarize what "that Eastern
                > Orthodoxy holds" concerning the image of God - or just about any theological
                > point, unlike the "German" systematics of Lutheranism or the "Latin" book
                > theology of Catholicism. Salvation isn't boiled down to anything as simple
                > and straightforward as "justification by grace alone through faith alone" -
                > and that isn't to know the doctrine, just to note its succinct statement in
                > contrast to the lack of summarization in Orthodoxy, period.
                >
                > The entire interview with Sr. Nonna can be read here<http://easternchristianbooks.blogspot.com/2011/07/interview-sr-nonna-harrison-on-gods.html>
                > .
                >
                > A summary of the image and likeness distinction can be found starting on p.
                > 50 of Met. Kallistos Ware's "The Orthodox Way" (see here<http://books.google.com/books?id=WpE8MwHLffEC&lpg=PA52&ots=Ds3pDEfMWN&dq=ware%20image%20likeness&pg=PA50#v=onepage&q=image&f=false>)
                > or p. 219 of his "The Orthodox Church" (see here), as well as in "The
                > Image And Likeness Of God" by Dr. Darren J. Torbic (see here<http://www.stgeorgeserbian.us/darren/darren03.htm>),
                > not to mention Vladimir Lossky's "In the Image and Likeness of God".
                >
                > I would also note that part of what's being said here is that the
                > incarnation, life, suffering, death, resurrection and ascension of Christ
                > has renewed human nature. Not only is the pre-lapsarian and post-lapsarian
                > distinction important when discussing what man can and cannot do, even more
                > important is what man can and cannot do before Christ and after Christ,
                > before our nature was united to the divine nature in the person of Christ
                > and after that significant, ontological change in our very substance. We
                > are saved by grace alone, but that grace was given in the Incarnation, et al
                > to all of human nature - it isn't simply a reserved gift given individually
                > to some who will be saved. Since Christ, we really can cooperate with God
                > in our salvation, because of what he did for us, by grace alone, then.
                >
                > Christopher
                >
                > PS. let me know if the links I provided above came through or not.
                >
                >
                > On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 4:59 PM, Richard <PastorFutrell@...>wrote:
                >
                >> **
                >>
                >>
                >> I understand (perhaps, incorrectly) that Eastern Orthodoxy holds that when
                >> Adam fell into sin, it was a fall, but that did not include the loss of the
                >> image of God.
                >>
                >> I'm reading Irenaeus' Against Heresies. He says in a couple of places that
                >> we lost the image of God in the Fall. Here's one quotation:
                >>
                >> "When [Jesus] became incarnate and was made human, he began anew the long
                >> line of human beings and, to state it briefly, furnished us with salvation.
                >> Consequently, what we had lost in Adam--namely, the image of likeness of
                >> God--we recovered in Christ Jesus" (Against Heresies, 3:18,1).
                >>
                >> I'd like an EO response and understanding on this.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Benjamin Harju
                Pr. Futrell, Okay, I ll try to clarify. Not only was man stuck in an immature status and unable to grow, but this immature man was also thrown into bondage
                Message 7 of 15 , Jul 3, 2011
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                  Pr. Futrell,

                  Okay, I'll try to clarify. Not only was man "stuck in an immature status
                  and unable to grow," but this immature man was also thrown into bondage to
                  the devil. He became corrupt, which is a spiritual injury. Gustaf Wingren,
                  a Lutheran scholar, writes on the subject in "Man and the Incarnation" p.20
                  "...but he [man] is different from the rest of Creation in that in addition
                  he was created in order to become like God--to become the very image of
                  God. This is his destiny. Irenaeus does not say that he _is_ this image,
                  nor was this destiny wholly realised [sic] in Creation before sin entered
                  the world, because man was a _child_. This means, in part, that man has not
                  arrived at his appointed destiny in Creation, because he is not the son of
                  God in that sense, but it also means that, if he grew up to maturity without
                  being confused by the adversary, he would reach the end which has been
                  ordained for him by God."

                  If man is not actually the image yet because he is a child and needs to
                  attain to the image, then to lose the image cannot mean that he lost
                  something he had in full, but rather he lost the potentiality to something.
                  He lost the ability to mature into the likeness of God.

                  Pr. Futrell, in saying on your part that St. Irenaeus lost the image, you
                  have not said what you believe that image is for Irenaeus yet. That makes
                  it hard to understand what you mean when you say you hold to Irenaeus losing
                  the image and that I only say the image was wounded/diminished. In
                  _Irenaeus_ to lose the image is to lose the potentiality to be like God
                  through growth in union with God. What do you think this image is that is
                  absolutely lost?

                  In Christ,
                  Benjamin Harju

                  On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 10:23 PM, Richard K. Futrell <
                  PastorFutrell@...> wrote:

                  > **
                  >
                  >
                  > Ben,
                  >
                  > I just take it that when Irenaeus says that we lost the image of God in the
                  > Fall, that's what he means. We lost it completely. I happen to agree with
                  > Irenaeus.
                  >
                  > Ben, I may be understanding what you are saying incorrectly. Here�s what I
                  > hear you saying:
                  >
                  > Ben�s words: "That the image and likeness of God is destroyed in man for
                  > St. Irenaeus means that man in his child-status has been removed from the
                  > pathway of growth in the Life that he received from God."
                  >
                  > What Rich hears: Lost image = being stuck in an immature status and unable
                  > to grow. Thus, the lost image was not really lost but stuck in a state of
                  > immaturity until Christ comes into the person�s life. If so, then
                  >
                  > - Ben: The image of God that is lost is only seriously wounded and
                  > diminished until Christ starts to vivify it.
                  > - Rich: The image is completely gone and begins to be restored when Christ
                  > comes into a person�s life.
                  >
                  > Is my understanding of your word accurate?
                  >
                  > Rich
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Richard K. Futrell
                  Ben, Sorry for my tardy response. I ve haven t religiously :-) been checking my e-mail during the Independence Day weekend. You said, Pr. Futrell, in saying
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jul 4, 2011
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                    Ben,

                    Sorry for my tardy response. I've haven't religiously :-) been checking my e-mail during the Independence Day weekend.

                    You said, "Pr. Futrell, in saying on your part that St. Irenaeus lost the image, you have not said what you believe that image is for Irenaeus yet."

                    Short answer: Only man was created in God’s image. We were created to be like God, never to die, as we lived in communion with Him and could live holy lives according to His will. The image of God and ability to live in such communion was lost in Adam (Genesis 5:3; Romans 5:12-21; 1 Corinthians 15:20–24). In Christ, it is restored and will be fully restored on the Last Day (1 Corinthians 15:49; Romans 8:29).

                    BTW, you can call me "Rich" if you would like. It is not a sign of disrespect; I know you were a Lutheran pastor. It is simply being informal, and I hope, always cordial.

                    --
                    Rich Futrell, Pastor
                    Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
                    http://sothl.com

                    Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins, His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift of life for body, soul, and spirit.
                  • xcjorr@gmail.com
                    Since we look a lot like Jesus who became incarnate well after the Fall, I ve always taken that to mean we did not completely lose the image of God in the
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jul 4, 2011
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                      Since we look a lot like Jesus who became incarnate well after the Fall, I've always taken that to mean we did not completely lose the image of God in the Garden. Our likeness with Him is alone the difference between us - apart from sin and divinity, that is.

                      Christopher

                      Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: "Richard K. Futrell" <PastorFutrell@...>
                      Sender: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2011 21:51:25
                      To: <LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com>
                      Reply-To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Irenaeus, the Fall, and the Image of
                      God

                      Ben,

                      Sorry for my tardy response. I've haven't religiously :-) been checking my e-mail during the Independence Day weekend.

                      You said, "Pr. Futrell, in saying on your part that St. Irenaeus lost the image, you have not said what you believe that image is for Irenaeus yet."

                      Short answer: Only man was created in God’s image. We were created to be like God, never to die, as we lived in communion with Him and could live holy lives according to His will. The image of God and ability to live in such communion was lost in Adam (Genesis 5:3; Romans 5:12-21; 1 Corinthians 15:20–24). In Christ, it is restored and will be fully restored on the Last Day (1 Corinthians 15:49; Romans 8:29).

                      BTW, you can call me "Rich" if you would like. It is not a sign of disrespect; I know you were a Lutheran pastor. It is simply being informal, and I hope, always cordial.

                      --
                      Rich Futrell, Pastor
                      Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
                      http://sothl.com

                      Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins, His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift of life for body, soul, and spirit.




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Richard K. Futrell
                      Chris, You wrote: I m not sure what the original Greek (or Latin) is or how this section may be translated differently, but in the selection you provided,
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jul 4, 2011
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                        Chris,

                        You wrote: "I'm not sure what the original Greek (or Latin) is or how this section may be translated differently, but in the selection you provided, Irenaeus is not saying saying we (in Adam) lost the "image of God" but the " the image of likeness of God". I take this latter phrase to mean basically "likeness"."

                        Response: I can only go by how the translator translated it, as I do not know what the original said. If I do otherwise, then (to me) it’s doing the same “twisting” of a text we see Protestants do all the time (and I know you consider me a Protestant ;-( ).

                        For Irenaeus’ Against Heresies, I believe the only complete text we have is in Latin, which was a translation from the original Greek. I do know we have quotations of the Greek text in Eusebius’ Church History. So the probability of error or an improperly nuanced translation is increased as Against Heresies is a translation of a translation.

                        We also have to factor in any translator bias. For example, I was reading several different translations of Clement’s Letter to the Corinthians. One translator had “justify” and another had “sanctify.” I thought, “What is going on?” Fortunately, one of the translations was a diglot, so I looked at the Greek and the Greek word was “dikiao.” The translator who rendered dikiao as “sanctify” was a Roman Catholic. Go figure!

                        All that being said, I’m going to stick with how the translator, James Payton, translated it. Next year, Steenberg and Unger are supposed to release their translation of Against Heresies, Book 3! It’ll be interesting to see how they translate "When [Jesus] became incarnate and was made human, he began anew the long line of human beings and, to state it briefly, furnished us with salvation. Consequently, what we had lost in Adam--namely, the image of likeness of God--we recovered in Christ Jesus" (Against Heresies, 3:18,1).


                        --
                        Rich Futrell, Pastor
                        Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
                        http://sothl.com

                        Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins, His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift of life for body, soul, and spirit.
                      • Benjamin Harju
                        Rich, Regarding your translation issue with Clement s letter, it has been a longstanding (but not always uniform) practice in early Christian and patristic
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jul 5, 2011
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                          Rich,

                          Regarding your translation issue with Clement's letter, it has been a
                          longstanding (but not always uniform) practice in early Christian and
                          patristic hermeneutics to translate dikaios as either justify or sanctify,
                          because the force behind each option was always considered the same in both
                          Western and Eastern theology. One is to make righteous, the other to make
                          holy, but the cause of making one either righteous or holy is the divine
                          energy of Grace [note, though, that RCs claim this is a created substance
                          and EO teach it's uncreated energy that is distinct from God's essence].
                          Often we use the word "sanctify" to mean more than just make holy, but also
                          to be positively affected or changed by God's energy and/or operation. In
                          such a case where this Grace operates on a person, holiness and
                          righteousness become very closely related terms. It was the Protestant
                          reformation that began insisting that to justify referred to a
                          non-sanctifying activity, actually a forensic activity outside of man and
                          rather in the heart of God concerning justice.

                          Regarding St. Irenaeus, I hear you saying that the image of God is 1) to be
                          like God, 2) not to die, 3) to live a holy life, and 4) these occur through
                          communion with God. So if this image was *lost*, then that would mean that
                          man ceases to be like God in every respect (not just in part), he dies
                          (though I'm unsure what you mean by death), he can do only evil and not good
                          anymore (including the civil realm), and this happens through a break in
                          communion with God. Obviously all of this is not so, especially since St.
                          Irenaeus demonstrates that man has the freedom to choose the good and to
                          believe in Christ and is not consigned only to evil and unbelief through his
                          own power (Book IV, Chapter 37). So I don't think your take on the image
                          in St. Irenaeus matches up with his own statements.

                          If, though, we said to lose the image was to become less like God, to die
                          but maintain existence, to misuse freedom to do evil, and that this locates
                          in a break in communion, then this would seem as if the image is only
                          injured and not lost. Yet this is much closer to what St. Irenaeus
                          teaches.

                          What is missing from both approaches is the link in St. Irenaeus between
                          image and likeness (and the issue of growth). These are not one and the same
                          for him, but two interrelated concepts. From Book V, Chapter 16, par. 2:

                          "And then, again, this Word was manifested when the Word of God was made
                          man, assimilating Himself to man, and man to Himself, so that by means of
                          his resemblance to the Son, man might become precious to the Father. For in
                          times long past, it was said that man was created after the image of God,
                          but it was not [actually] shown; for the Word was as yet invisible, after
                          whose image man was created, Wherefore also he did easily lose the
                          similitude. When, however, the Word of God became flesh, He confirmed both
                          these: for He both showed forth the image truly, since He became Himself
                          what was His image; and He re-established the similitude after a sure
                          manner, by assimilating man to the invisible Father through means of the
                          visible Word."

                          So Christopher's comment about loosing the likeness is not out of bounds at
                          all. In fact, if we read the original passage in question again from the
                          public domain electronic collection of Ante-Nicene fathers...

                          "...but when He became incarnate, and was made man, He commenced afresh(1)
                          the long line of human beings, and furnished us, in a brief, comprehensive
                          manner, with salvation; so that what we had lost in Adam -- namely, to be
                          according to the image and likeness of God -- that we might recover in
                          Christ Jesus" [III:18:1].

                          ... we see that what was lost was to be _according to_ the image and
                          likeness of God, which St. Irenaeus says is Christ. We have lost being
                          according to Christ, which in St. Irenaeus involves not just initial
                          creation but also growth, hence the distinction he indicates between image
                          and likeness.

                          I can only recommend that you spend some time with St. Irenaeus to discover
                          the relationship between image and likeness in Against Heresies. The
                          patristic scholar at the Ft. Wayne seminary (when I was there) highly
                          recommended Gustaf Wingren's "Man and the Incarnation" during my freshman
                          year, calling it the best presentation on St. Irenaeus's theology out
                          there. At the time it was out of print, but not so any more. I just
                          purchased a copy (which I've been desiring for 11 years) shortly before this
                          thread popped up. You can also check out "One Right Reading?: A Guide to
                          Irenaeus" by Mary Ann Donovan. This book was part of the curriculum in an
                          STM level course I took on St. Irenaeus with the same professor near the end
                          of my time at seminary. The outlines in the Donovan book alone make the
                          book worthwhile to own.

                          Personally I find St. Irenaeus to be a very good introduction to Orthodoxy
                          and Orthodox patristics.

                          Regarding your Scripture quotes, Gen. 5:3 is an argument from silence (and
                          could be reversed from silence to demonstrate a retention of God's image),
                          Rom. 5:12-21 demonstrates only a broken communion and bondage to death
                          (...death reigned over Adam...), not an answer to whether the image is lost
                          or distorted, and the same for 1 Co. 15:20-24. In actuality Scripture
                          demonstrates that man remains created in God's image, as God says after the
                          Fall in Genesis 9:6. We might even be persuaded by St. James 3:9, though he
                          uses the word likeness (homoiwsis) and not image (eikon).

                          In Christ,
                          Benjamin Harju




                          On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 10:12 PM, <xcjorr@...> wrote:

                          > **
                          >
                          >
                          > Since we look a lot like Jesus who became incarnate well after the Fall,
                          > I've always taken that to mean we did not completely lose the image of God
                          > in the Garden. Our likeness with Him is alone the difference between us -
                          > apart from sin and divinity, that is.
                          >
                          > Christopher
                          >
                          > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: "Richard K. Futrell" <PastorFutrell@...>
                          > Sender: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2011 21:51:25
                          > To: <LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Reply-To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Irenaeus, the Fall, and the Image of
                          > God
                          >
                          > Ben,
                          >
                          > Sorry for my tardy response. I've haven't religiously :-) been checking my
                          > e-mail during the Independence Day weekend.
                          >
                          > You said, "Pr. Futrell, in saying on your part that St. Irenaeus lost the
                          > image, you have not said what you believe that image is for Irenaeus yet."
                          >
                          > Short answer: Only man was created in God�s image. We were created to be
                          > like God, never to die, as we lived in communion with Him and could live
                          > holy lives according to His will. The image of God and ability to live in
                          > such communion was lost in Adam (Genesis 5:3; Romans 5:12-21; 1 Corinthians
                          > 15:20�24). In Christ, it is restored and will be fully restored on the Last
                          > Day (1 Corinthians 15:49; Romans 8:29).
                          >
                          > BTW, you can call me "Rich" if you would like. It is not a sign of
                          > disrespect; I know you were a Lutheran pastor. It is simply being informal,
                          > and I hope, always cordial.
                          >
                          > --
                          > Rich Futrell, Pastor
                          > Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
                          > http://sothl.com
                          >
                          > Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the
                          > Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith of
                          > Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins, His
                          > flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift of life
                          > for body, soul, and spirit.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Richard K. Futrell
                          Ben, You know your stuff! I have yet to read book 4 in this translation. So what you are saying is that my understanding of the loss of the image of God does
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jul 5, 2011
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                            Ben,

                            You know your stuff! I have yet to read book 4 in this translation. So what you are saying is that my understanding of the loss of the image of God does not purport with Irenaeus'. Fair enough--and you make your case with that rather soundly.

                            So with Irenaeus, loss of God's image does not mean what I take it to mean. That seems to be the case (I'll wait until I get through book 4).

                            So with Ireneaus, he is saying we lost the image, but the ramifcations of that are different than I hold the ramifications to be. (And your assessment of my position, if you were doing that, is not what I hold it all to be, but that's OK, for I didn't spell all that out).

                            I also at some later time plan to read Wingren's take on Irenaeus.


                            Rich

                            BTW; Thank you for taking tiem to write lenghty posts opn this as needed to continue the conversation in a good way. That's refreshing.


                            --
                            Rich Futrell, Pastor
                            Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
                            http://sothl.com

                            Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins, His flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift of life for body, soul, and spirit.
                          • Benjamin Harju
                            Rich, I apologize if I took the wording of your description of St. Irenaeus s position too far into distortion. It would be good conversation to read your
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jul 5, 2011
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                              Rich,

                              I apologize if I took the wording of your description of St. Irenaeus's
                              position too far into distortion. It would be good conversation to read
                              your full take on St. Irenaeus's position, but in the context of this list
                              it might be more fruitful to discuss the image and likeness of God in
                              Lutheran and Orthodox terms, and place St. Irenaeus in those contexts, as
                              Randall Hay did. I especially like how Randall demonstrates that Orthodox
                              teaching is a matter for the entire Church Catholic, not just what one
                              teacher says as if that's that.

                              In Christ,
                              Benjamin Harju

                              On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 10:56 PM, Richard K. Futrell <
                              PastorFutrell@...> wrote:

                              > **
                              >
                              >
                              > Ben,
                              >
                              > You know your stuff! I have yet to read book 4 in this translation. So what
                              > you are saying is that my understanding of the loss of the image of God does
                              > not purport with Irenaeus'. Fair enough--and you make your case with that
                              > rather soundly.
                              >
                              > So with Irenaeus, loss of God's image does not mean what I take it to mean.
                              > That seems to be the case (I'll wait until I get through book 4).
                              >
                              > So with Ireneaus, he is saying we lost the image, but the ramifcations of
                              > that are different than I hold the ramifications to be. (And your assessment
                              > of my position, if you were doing that, is not what I hold it all to be, but
                              > that's OK, for I didn't spell all that out).
                              >
                              > I also at some later time plan to read Wingren's take on Irenaeus.
                              >
                              > Rich
                              >
                              > BTW; Thank you for taking tiem to write lenghty posts opn this as needed to
                              > continue the conversation in a good way. That's refreshing.
                              >
                              > --
                              >
                              > Rich Futrell, Pastor
                              > Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, Kimberling City, MO
                              > http://sothl.com
                              >
                              > Where we receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and with the
                              > Augsburg Confession): The faith once delivered to the saints, the faith of
                              > Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His full forgiveness of sins, His
                              > flesh and blood given and poured out for us, and His gracious gift of life
                              > for body, soul, and spirit.
                              >
                              >
                              >


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