Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Orthodox Jurisdictions

Expand Messages
  • waynewhitmer
    I just posted this on Monachos.net and would also like to hear the opinions of my fellow Lutherans. I just read an article regarding Fr Peter Gilquist and it
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 12, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      I just posted this on Monachos.net and would also like to hear the opinions of my fellow Lutherans.

      I just read an article regarding Fr Peter Gilquist and it states:

      "Gilquest said he chose to join the Antiochan Orthodox Church because he asked himself when the church in Antioch died, and realized it never did."

      What are the essential distinguishing characteristics of each Orthodox jurisdiction? Is there a good article which addresses their origins and differences? Were I to convert to Orthodoxy I would have 2 choices locally and 1 choice within an hour away from my residence. 1. OCA 2. GOARCH and the 3rd an hour away would be AOCANA.

      Does it really matter or is one more open to converts than others? I know in the end I need to visit these parishes to understand however I'm interested in your thoughts?

      Regards,

      Wayne Whitmer
    • Benjamin Harju
      I think part of the answer you are looking for may well be tied together with whether or not you think you would ever aspire to the priesthood or monasticism.
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 12, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        I think part of the answer you are looking for may well be tied together
        with whether or not you think you would ever aspire to the priesthood or
        monasticism. If to monasticism, then the Antiochian Archdiocese might not
        work for you, since we have no male monasteries. If to the priesthood, then
        spend some time learning how each jurisdiction handles its clergy. If
        neither at this point in your life, then focus mainly on the parishes around
        you first, learning what you can before committing to the catechumenate in
        any particular parish/jurisdiction.

        I am in the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America. Immediately after
        leaving the Lutheran ministry we started attending an Antiochian parish in
        Fort Wayne, IN. They are not always as rigid as the Russian tradition, but
        at the same time are influenced by their own ancient connections from the
        time of the Acts of the Apostles, as well as the practices of the Greeks and
        Russians. This can, at times, make them stand out unusually so from the
        Russians and Greeks. The parishes can be very Arabic or not so much. The
        Archdiocese has been very open to converts, and has taken steps not to give
        America too much ethnic Orthodoxy all at once. Sometimes this draws
        criticism, because some Orthodox fear their rich way of life is being
        diluted, and because some converts join to get the full "Eastern" tradition
        all at once. Despite criticism, the Antiochian Archdiocese is following the
        missionary spirit of the Fathers, who endeavored to keep whatever was
        redeemable from the culture into which they brought the Orthodox Catholic
        faith.

        My only suggestion to anyone looking into the Antiochian Orthodox
        Archdiocese of North America is that you take into account the Arab culture
        that saturates the Archdiocese. Speaking for myself, sometimes the
        Arabic-ness is refreshing and sometimes it is frustrating. Look at the
        congregation you would attend, but also look at how people in the Diocese
        and then the Archdiocese treat each other. No jurisdiction is immune from
        problems (as we have seen this past decade), so it helps to discern what
        kind of problems you think you can handle.

        In Christ,
        Benjamin Harju

        On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 1:10 PM, waynewhitmer <waywhit@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > I just posted this on Monachos.net and would also like to hear the opinions
        > of my fellow Lutherans.
        >
        > I just read an article regarding Fr Peter Gilquist and it states:
        >
        > "Gilquest said he chose to join the Antiochan Orthodox Church because he
        > asked himself when the church in Antioch died, and realized it never did."
        >
        > What are the essential distinguishing characteristics of each Orthodox
        > jurisdiction? Is there a good article which addresses their origins and
        > differences? Were I to convert to Orthodoxy I would have 2 choices locally
        > and 1 choice within an hour away from my residence. 1. OCA 2. GOARCH and the
        > 3rd an hour away would be AOCANA.
        >
        > Does it really matter or is one more open to converts than others? I know
        > in the end I need to visit these parishes to understand however I'm
        > interested in your thoughts?
        >
        > Regards,
        >
        > Wayne Whitmer
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Christopher Orr
        What are the essential distinguishing characteristics of each Orthodox jurisdiction? The most basic differences between each Orthodox jurisdiction in the US
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 12, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          "What are the essential distinguishing characteristics of each Orthodox
          jurisdiction?"

          The most basic differences between each Orthodox jurisdiction in the US is
          their episcopates, what they are responsible for and how they are chosen.

          For instance, the Synod of the OCA is chosen locally by the Synod itself in
          cooperation with the clergy and laity of the diocese. The OCA is not a
          department of any state and receives no direct government support, it is
          also not closely allied with any particular ethnic group or country. Each
          bishop is a ruling bishop of a distinct diocese, just like the in the Old
          World.

          By comparison, all other Orthodox jurisdictions have enormous 'involvement'
          either locally or overseas from one or more governments. The Turkish and
          Greek governments, for instance, are heavily involved with the activities of
          the Ecumenical Patriarchate. The Russian Church works towards Russian
          governmental goals, as well, as recently revealed by WikiLeaks. the
          Russian, Greek and EP churches receive money from their states. The Church
          of Antioch has close ties with the government of Syria - mainly because the
          government is not as radically Muslim as others in the region (the Bashirs
          are members of a 'heretical' Muslim sect).

          The local bishops have wider or narrower mandates. For instance, it seems
          clear now that all Antiochian bishops apart from the Metropolitan are simply
          assistant/auxiliary bishops to the Metropolitan. The OCA has its own
          self-contained Synod and consecrates its own chrism, even. ROCOR has
          bishops and dioceses outside of the US and the bishop of its Eastern US
          diocese is also the leader of all ROCOR and locum tenens of their Australian
          diocese.

          This is all rather 'inside baseball' kinds of information. At the end of
          the day, it's really about your local parish, the clergy and people there.

          Each jurisdictions has clergy and people with a wide variety of backgrounds:
          recent American converts, convert families going back a few generations,
          immigrants right off the boat speaking no English, fourth and fifth
          generation immigrant families, blue and white collar, open to visitors, not
          open, highly intellectual clergy and people to far less so. Add to this
          differences in temperament, cliques, family dynamics, differences from the
          Old World and the New, as well as geography and each parish can be quite
          different. One can speak in generalities, but there are too many exceptions
          to make that worth all that much. What a given inquirer or convert 'needs'
          and prefers can also be dramatically different. Some prefer very ethnic
          communities and worship in foreign languages, the strictest typikon and
          fasting rules, others may need/prefer to ease themselves into Orthodox and
          want something that feels more like what they are familiar with (since so
          much is so different already).

          (I was baptized in an OCA parish, but am now a more frequent communicant at
          a GOA parish - though I still visit my old parish for weekday feasts and
          Pascha. People tend to prefer Slavic or Greek/Antiochian, ethnic or
          American or somewhere between, strict or less strict. I prefer Slavic,
          almost all English but with a diversity of ethnicities, and strict. The
          reasons these different flavors exist is due to Orthodoxy being a very large
          thing with a complex sociology and history, in this country and abroad,
          though with not enough time for a common mode to have developed here - there
          are many new immigrants (of all kinds) with their own needs as well as brand
          new converts (of all kinds) with their own needs, as well as older parishes
          with their own distinct identities.)

          The best thing to do is to visit your two local options and see how each
          priest and parish feels. Sometimes you may respond quite well to a certain
          priest, but not his parish. Sometimes both will speak to you. Give it some
          time, too. No need to make a decision immediately, though a stable rhythm
          of church life should begin to take form after awhile. Take advice from
          whichever priest you feel most comfortable with, be open with him about any
          concerns you have about Orthodox, a given parish, your family's needs, etc.
          There's very little you will be able to bring up that they haven't heard
          before.

          If you have further questions, ask.



          On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 1:10 PM, waynewhitmer <waywhit@...> wrote:

          >
          >
          > I just posted this on Monachos.net and would also like to hear the opinions
          > of my fellow Lutherans.
          >
          > I just read an article regarding Fr Peter Gilquist and it states:
          >
          > "Gilquest said he chose to join the Antiochan Orthodox Church because he
          > asked himself when the church in Antioch died, and realized it never did."
          >
          > What are the essential distinguishing characteristics of each Orthodox
          > jurisdiction? Is there a good article which addresses their origins and
          > differences? Were I to convert to Orthodoxy I would have 2 choices locally
          > and 1 choice within an hour away from my residence. 1. OCA 2. GOARCH and the
          > 3rd an hour away would be AOCANA.
          >
          > Does it really matter or is one more open to converts than others? I know
          > in the end I need to visit these parishes to understand however I'm
          > interested in your thoughts?
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          > Wayne Whitmer
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • randall hay
          Some of the things people are saying aren t really paralleling what I have experienced. For instance, I go to a church that is Russian in style/ethos/music,
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 12, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Some of the things people are saying aren't really paralleling what I have
            experienced. For instance, I go to a church that is "Russian" in
            style/ethos/music, but is under the Patriarch of Bulgaria. Much of the OCA has
            been influenced by "Russian" practices, but of course it is not under Moscow.

            ---And I think what Wikileaks says about the Patriarchate of Moscow is a whole
            topic that would take some research and fair discussion, and would have no
            relevance to somebody deciding what parish to go to...esp since only a handful
            of parishes in the US are under Moscow.


            I think we all tend to form our own views on the topic of the differing
            jurisdictions, and it would be best to just visit the different parishes and see
            what fits best, see which feels right for you. We are not like RC in this sense,
            where you are expected to go to the nearest church. We recognize that
            different people fit in better at different places. It's the same with people
            interested in becoming monastics; they visit different monasteries as sees
            what's the best fit.


            I have found that how visitors/converts are greeted isn't a function of the
            archdiocese, but the particular parish. (The same as in Lutheranism, in other
            words.)


            Just remember that all Orthodox are still sinners, just like we were in the
            NT...and I think you will be staggered by the grace you experience (and also by
            the demons' attacks)...

            Prayers,

            R.















            ________________________________
            From: waynewhitmer <waywhit@...>
            To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sun, December 12, 2010 1:10:40 PM
            Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Orthodox Jurisdictions


            I just posted this on Monachos.net and would also like to hear the opinions of
            my fellow Lutherans.


            I just read an article regarding Fr Peter Gilquist and it states:

            "Gilquest said he chose to join the Antiochan Orthodox Church because he asked
            himself when the church in Antioch died, and realized it never did."

            What are the essential distinguishing characteristics of each Orthodox
            jurisdiction? Is there a good article which addresses their origins and
            differences? Were I to convert to Orthodoxy I would have 2 choices locally and 1
            choice within an hour away from my residence. 1. OCA 2. GOARCH and the 3rd an
            hour away would be AOCANA.


            Does it really matter or is one more open to converts than others? I know in the
            end I need to visit these parishes to understand however I'm interested in your
            thoughts?

            Regards,

            Wayne Whitmer




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Christopher Orr
            I agree with Randy. Most of the things I mentioned are not really pertinent to an inquirer, catechumen or new convert. I took the question too much in the
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 13, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              I agree with Randy. Most of the things I mentioned are not really pertinent
              to an inquirer, catechumen or new convert. I took the question too much in
              the abstract, academically. Each parish is a microcosm of the church and
              should be investigated on its own terms. It's a blessing to have a choice
              in your area (I have even more being in NYC), though that ability to choose
              causes its own problems.

              I will second the comparison with monastics. Any novice I have known has
              visited a number of monasteries to find one that 'fits'. The monastic
              brotherhood is getting to know the potential novice, too. It's much the
              same way with finding the right parish home. Good thing all things work
              together for the good of them who love God. I find we all have available to
              us exactly what we need.

              Christopher


              On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 8:52 PM, randall hay <stortford@...>wrote:

              >
              >
              > Some of the things people are saying aren't really paralleling what I have
              > experienced. For instance, I go to a church that is "Russian" in
              > style/ethos/music, but is under the Patriarch of Bulgaria. Much of the OCA
              > has
              > been influenced by "Russian" practices, but of course it is not under
              > Moscow.
              >
              > ---And I think what Wikileaks says about the Patriarchate of Moscow is a
              > whole
              > topic that would take some research and fair discussion, and would have no
              > relevance to somebody deciding what parish to go to...esp since only a
              > handful
              > of parishes in the US are under Moscow.
              >
              > I think we all tend to form our own views on the topic of the differing
              > jurisdictions, and it would be best to just visit the different parishes
              > and see
              > what fits best, see which feels right for you. We are not like RC in this
              > sense,
              > where you are expected to go to the nearest church. We recognize that
              > different people fit in better at different places. It's the same with
              > people
              > interested in becoming monastics; they visit different monasteries as sees
              > what's the best fit.
              >
              > I have found that how visitors/converts are greeted isn't a function of the
              >
              > archdiocese, but the particular parish. (The same as in Lutheranism, in
              > other
              > words.)
              >
              > Just remember that all Orthodox are still sinners, just like we were in the
              >
              > NT...and I think you will be staggered by the grace you experience (and
              > also by
              > the demons' attacks)...
              >
              > Prayers,
              >
              > R.
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: waynewhitmer <waywhit@... <waywhit%40gmail.com>>
              > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Sun, December 12, 2010 1:10:40 PM
              > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Orthodox Jurisdictions
              >
              >
              > I just posted this on Monachos.net and would also like to hear the opinions
              > of
              > my fellow Lutherans.
              >
              > I just read an article regarding Fr Peter Gilquist and it states:
              >
              > "Gilquest said he chose to join the Antiochan Orthodox Church because he
              > asked
              > himself when the church in Antioch died, and realized it never did."
              >
              > What are the essential distinguishing characteristics of each Orthodox
              > jurisdiction? Is there a good article which addresses their origins and
              > differences? Were I to convert to Orthodoxy I would have 2 choices locally
              > and 1
              > choice within an hour away from my residence. 1. OCA 2. GOARCH and the 3rd
              > an
              > hour away would be AOCANA.
              >
              > Does it really matter or is one more open to converts than others? I know
              > in the
              > end I need to visit these parishes to understand however I'm interested in
              > your
              > thoughts?
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Wayne Whitmer
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • E
              ... Music styles are different. Greek and Antiochians will use Byzantine chant. OCA is more Russian (polyphonic), although Antiochians use lots of Russian
              Message 6 of 7 , Dec 13, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "waynewhitmer" <waywhit@...> wrote:
                >
                > I just posted this on Monachos.net and would also like to hear the opinions of my fellow Lutherans.
                >
                > I just read an article regarding Fr Peter Gilquist and it states:
                >
                > "Gilquest said he chose to join the Antiochan Orthodox Church because he asked himself when the church in Antioch died, and realized it never did."
                >
                > What are the essential distinguishing characteristics of each Orthodox jurisdiction? Is there a good article which addresses their origins and differences? Were I to convert to Orthodoxy I would have 2 choices locally and 1 choice within an hour away from my residence. 1. OCA 2. GOARCH and the 3rd an hour away would be AOCANA.
                >
                > Does it really matter or is one more open to converts than others? I know in the end I need to visit these parishes to understand however I'm interested in your thoughts?
                >
                > Regards,
                >
                > Wayne Whitmer
                >

                Music styles are different. Greek and Antiochians will use Byzantine chant. OCA is more Russian (polyphonic), although Antiochians use lots of Russian choral music too. My Antiochian parish mixes both Russian choral and Byzantine chant. Food is different too. Yummy baklava and falafels.

                At my old Lutheran parish, majority were of German descent, services were changed over from German to English after WWII I'm told. Now, at my Orthodox parish there is more ethnic diversity, (Syrian, Palestinian, Russian, Greek, Romanian, Bulgarian, Serbian, the USA), but we all sign the +cross the same way!

                No, it doesn't really matter what jurisdiction. I'd say, first, decide if you want to pursue Orthodoxy. If yes, let nothing deter you. Focus on worship at the Divine Liturgy and/or Vespers. The services alone are more than sufficient. The rest will fall into place.
              • Rosemarie Lieffring
                I d like to affirm these wise words from Orthogrammy. Everything eventually falls into place. In my area I opted to attend the local Greek parish only 10
                Message 7 of 7 , Dec 14, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  I'd like to affirm these wise words from Orthogrammy. Everything eventually
                  falls into place.

                  In my area I opted to attend the local Greek parish only 10 minutes from our
                  home, rather than the OCA parish over an hour from my home. Now I preferred
                  the OCA parish for a few reasons...everything is done in English and I
                  prefer Russian polyphonic music as opposed to the Byzantine Chant.
                  Additionally I was drawn to the piety of the folks at the OCA parish and it
                  is loaded with converts. But I also knew I would want to be active in my
                  parish and be able to attend as many services as possible (having spent a
                  half a lifetime without Orthodoxy, I figured I have a lot of lost time to
                  make up attending the services!) And the Greek parish, being the only
                  Orthodox Church in a college town tends to be a little less Greek drawing
                  all kinds of Orthodox attend there, Russian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Serbian,
                  you name it so they use more English than some--which for me was very
                  important.

                  Nonetheless, it is still Greek and that becomes more obvious especially when
                  attending events at the Cathedral or with other parishes like the St. John
                  Chrysostom Oratorical festivals or even holding our own Greek festival. At
                  first I struggled with the Greek thing. There isn't one iota of Greek in
                  me. But over time, as Orthogrammy points out, everything has fallen into
                  place and I am quite at home being a non-Greek in our Greek parish.

                  So do what makes sense for you. As my priest says "soak up the services."
                  Expect that there will be cultural differences. Open your mind and heart to
                  them. You'll learn to appreciate them over time. And they will learn to
                  appreciate what you bring to the parish...especially if you bring Bavarian
                  Brezen to the covered dish luncheons! ;) -----R


                  On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 12:31 AM, E <orthogrammy@...> wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > "waynewhitmer" <waywhit@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I just posted this on Monachos.net and would also like to hear the
                  > opinions of my fellow Lutherans.
                  > >
                  > > I just read an article regarding Fr Peter Gilquist and it states:
                  > >
                  > > "Gilquest said he chose to join the Antiochan Orthodox Church because he
                  > asked himself when the church in Antioch died, and realized it never did."
                  > >
                  > > What are the essential distinguishing characteristics of each Orthodox
                  > jurisdiction? Is there a good article which addresses their origins and
                  > differences? Were I to convert to Orthodoxy I would have 2 choices locally
                  > and 1 choice within an hour away from my residence. 1. OCA 2. GOARCH and the
                  > 3rd an hour away would be AOCANA.
                  > >
                  > > Does it really matter or is one more open to converts than others? I know
                  > in the end I need to visit these parishes to understand however I'm
                  > interested in your thoughts?
                  > >
                  > > Regards,
                  > >
                  > > Wayne Whitmer
                  > >
                  >
                  > Music styles are different. Greek and Antiochians will use Byzantine chant.
                  > OCA is more Russian (polyphonic), although Antiochians use lots of Russian
                  > choral music too. My Antiochian parish mixes both Russian choral and
                  > Byzantine chant. Food is different too. Yummy baklava and falafels.
                  >
                  > At my old Lutheran parish, majority were of German descent, services were
                  > changed over from German to English after WWII I'm told. Now, at my Orthodox
                  > parish there is more ethnic diversity, (Syrian, Palestinian, Russian, Greek,
                  > Romanian, Bulgarian, Serbian, the USA), but we all sign the +cross the same
                  > way!
                  >
                  > No, it doesn't really matter what jurisdiction. I'd say, first, decide if
                  > you want to pursue Orthodoxy. If yes, let nothing deter you. Focus on
                  > worship at the Divine Liturgy and/or Vespers. The services alone are more
                  > than sufficient. The rest will fall into place.
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.