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Re: Sin & Nature

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  • Oruaseht
    I m thinking along the lines of Romans 7:17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. The general confession & absolution at the
    Message 1 of 5 , Nov 2, 2010
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      I'm thinking along the lines of Romans 7:17 "So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me."

      The general confession & absolution at the beginning of Lutheran Divine Services states "We confess that we are by nature sinful and unclean..." The Orthodox Study Bible, commenting on 7:17, states "Man is not sinful by nature. The Orthodox Church rejects any teaching that man has a "sin nature" or that man's nature is depraved to the core. This passage clearly shows that sin is something distinct from our nature. . . . While we can become immersed in sin, we know that it is still not part of our nature, but a foreign force that dwells in us. Thus, sin is what we do, not what we are."

      From this OSB quote, sin is foreign/alien to nature. I'm wondering if there are more Orthodox resources that discuss this in depth.

      In a related stream of thought, righteousness is also considered part of nature by Lutherans and the Reformed (but not by Rome & Orthodoxy). Quoting Perry Robinson in a blog commbox: "Augustine didn't teach total depravity since Augustine didn't think that righteousness was intrinsic to human nature but added to it. It was the Pelagians that thought that human nature was intrinsically righteous. Ironically, The Lutherans and the Reformed took this view from the Neo-semi-Pelagianism of the Ockhamists. Total depravity is a consequence of a Pelagian pre-lapsarian anthropology."




      --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Oruaseht,
      >
      > What do you mean by "alien to nature"?
      >
      > In Christ,
      > Benjamin Harju
      >
      >
      > On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 6:52 PM, Oruaseht <oruaseht@...> wrote:
      >
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi - are there any Orthodox resources on sin being alien to nature that
      > > anyone is aware of?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Oruaseht
      Any Lutherans I have talked to on this topic - sin being alien to nature - disagree (despite what the Confessions do or do not say). For all intents and
      Message 2 of 5 , Nov 2, 2010
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        Any Lutherans I have talked to on this topic - sin being alien to nature - disagree (despite what the Confessions do or do not say). For all intents and purposes, Lutheranism (today) believes in complete and utter depravity of human nature.

        Here is a response I received from a very learned Lutheran on this very topic (simply for interests sake):

        I just peeked at FC I (Epitome) to double check what it is that you are getting snagged on. I think I see what it is - Article I of the FC deals with an important distinction that emerged because of philosophical terminology. In no way does the article deny the depravity of humanity (ie: that we are somehow born sinless) but tries to distinguish between the Aristotelian categories of 'substance' (aka 'nature') and 'accidens' (ie: properties) as it relates to the integrity of God's good creation & the equally present corruption due to original sin. The point of the article is not to divide the two as though humanity could be diced into parts to point out that crumb A is sinful and crumb B is not. The point is to distinguish between the goodness of creation & the very real corruption of original sin into which we are all born. We are emphatically NOT born sinless (affirmative thesis 3 & the negative theses as well) - but rather - we are born caught within a contradictory state of being (by substance/nature) a good creation of God - yet at the same time thoroughly corrupted (in accidens & powers) by original sin.




        --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:
        >
        > Here's a pertinent discussion thread on Monachos discussing the question,
        > "Did Christ have a fallen human nature?:
        >
        > http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?3600-Did-Christ-have-a-fallen-human-nature
        >
        > I believe we also discussed previously, on this list, the fact that Lutheran
        > theology does not teach a depravity of human nature itself either, that sin
        > is alien to the nature as nature - even though it would say there is a close
        > affinity between our nature and sin such that they could be identified in a
        > loose sense.
        >
        > Christopher
        >
        >
        >
        > On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 9:43 PM, Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@...>wrote:
        >
        > > Dear Oruaseht,
        > >
        > > What do you mean by "alien to nature"?
        > >
        > > In Christ,
        > > Benjamin Harju
        > >
        > >
        > > On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 6:52 PM, Oruaseht <oruaseht@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Hi - are there any Orthodox resources on sin being alien to nature that
        > > > anyone is aware of?
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
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