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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Synergy

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  • Benjamin Harju
    Tim, Synergy is based on the notion of human freedom and God s respect of that freedom. Fallen man is bound as a captive under the tyranny of the devil. He is
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 7, 2010
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      Tim,

      Synergy is based on the notion of human freedom and God's respect of that
      freedom. Fallen man is bound as a captive under the tyranny of the devil.
      He is comparable to the Israelites enslaved by the Egyptians. The power
      holding fallen man in bondage is death, and its sting is sin (1Co 15:56).
      So fallen man is under a tyrant, suffers the lash of sin, and is shackled to
      Hades by death. Yet in this situation he can still exercise his will,
      though because of his bondage to sin and death he cannot fully or
      consistently accomplish that will. And, of course, his will cannot
      accomplish his release and return to God!

      Synergy, for the unconverted man, means assenting to the release effected by
      our Passover Lamb, Christ. Basically that's all that fallen man can do is
      say yes or no, so that is what God requires. Faith in the heart must work
      through outward confession and commitment.

      Synergy for the converted man means struggling against your own love of sin
      and conditioning toward it (passions) and to persevere by God's Grace in the
      commandments of God. This is the ascetic struggle, also known as daily
      repentance or bearing the cross and following Christ. Again, it's about
      willingly and purposefully growing closer to God. Man is invited to do it,
      and God supplies the Grace of His Spirit so it is possible. God is not
      passive man's autopilot, but rather the active man's Energizer. The Holy
      Spirit perfects, He does not take over. The demons do not respect free will
      and try to trick man and lead him into bondage so that they can take over a
      man.

      In the faith-works paradigm man believes and so he works. His work is
      beneficial in his growth in God because God supplies His personal Energies
      (Grace) to man. The believing man is the active man. Faith works. In
      Lutheranism faith is a passive recipient, and based on what is received it
      works in gratitude. In Orthodoxy faith is activity, and this active faith
      receives Grace, which draws man deeper into union with God and furthers the
      potency of his personal spiritual warfare.

      I hope this is a decent start.

      In Christ,
      Benjamin Harju


      On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 3:23 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      > I'll be honest- even though I've done my fair share of research and
      > dictionary looking, I still don't quite understand synergy, how it relates
      > to the whole faith vs. works thing, etc.
      >
      > If y'all could help me understand it better, that would be greatly
      > appreciated.
      >
      > - Tim
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • xcjorr@gmail.com
      I would add that if you remove the idea that 1) salvation is earned and the idea that 2) grace is simply God s undeserved favor rather than God s energies and
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 7, 2010
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        I would add that if you remove the idea that 1) salvation is earned and the idea that 2) grace is simply God's undeserved favor rather than God's energies and presence, then the synergy 'problem' ceases to be a problem at all.

        That is, this is a problem created by the Lutheran schema.

        Christopher
        Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@...>
        Sender: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 19:02:12
        To: <LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com>
        Reply-To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Synergy

        Tim,

        Synergy is based on the notion of human freedom and God's respect of that
        freedom. Fallen man is bound as a captive under the tyranny of the devil.
        He is comparable to the Israelites enslaved by the Egyptians. The power
        holding fallen man in bondage is death, and its sting is sin (1Co 15:56).
        So fallen man is under a tyrant, suffers the lash of sin, and is shackled to
        Hades by death. Yet in this situation he can still exercise his will,
        though because of his bondage to sin and death he cannot fully or
        consistently accomplish that will. And, of course, his will cannot
        accomplish his release and return to God!

        Synergy, for the unconverted man, means assenting to the release effected by
        our Passover Lamb, Christ. Basically that's all that fallen man can do is
        say yes or no, so that is what God requires. Faith in the heart must work
        through outward confession and commitment.

        Synergy for the converted man means struggling against your own love of sin
        and conditioning toward it (passions) and to persevere by God's Grace in the
        commandments of God. This is the ascetic struggle, also known as daily
        repentance or bearing the cross and following Christ. Again, it's about
        willingly and purposefully growing closer to God. Man is invited to do it,
        and God supplies the Grace of His Spirit so it is possible. God is not
        passive man's autopilot, but rather the active man's Energizer. The Holy
        Spirit perfects, He does not take over. The demons do not respect free will
        and try to trick man and lead him into bondage so that they can take over a
        man.

        In the faith-works paradigm man believes and so he works. His work is
        beneficial in his growth in God because God supplies His personal Energies
        (Grace) to man. The believing man is the active man. Faith works. In
        Lutheranism faith is a passive recipient, and based on what is received it
        works in gratitude. In Orthodoxy faith is activity, and this active faith
        receives Grace, which draws man deeper into union with God and furthers the
        potency of his personal spiritual warfare.

        I hope this is a decent start.

        In Christ,
        Benjamin Harju


        On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 3:23 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > I'll be honest- even though I've done my fair share of research and
        > dictionary looking, I still don't quite understand synergy, how it relates
        > to the whole faith vs. works thing, etc.
        >
        > If y'all could help me understand it better, that would be greatly
        > appreciated.
        >
        > - Tim
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • mrthatoneguy92
        Thanks very much, Mr. Harju. I appreciate your definition. The way you broke it down (as though that can truly ever be done) is good for someone like I, who
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 7, 2010
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          Thanks very much, Mr. Harju. I appreciate your definition. The way you "broke it down" (as though that can truly ever be done) is good for someone like I, who am so new to this thing called Orthodoxy.


          --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@...> wrote:
          >
          > Tim,
          >
          > Synergy is based on the notion of human freedom and God's respect of that
          > freedom. Fallen man is bound as a captive under the tyranny of the devil.
          > He is comparable to the Israelites enslaved by the Egyptians. The power
          > holding fallen man in bondage is death, and its sting is sin (1Co 15:56).
          > So fallen man is under a tyrant, suffers the lash of sin, and is shackled to
          > Hades by death. Yet in this situation he can still exercise his will,
          > though because of his bondage to sin and death he cannot fully or
          > consistently accomplish that will. And, of course, his will cannot
          > accomplish his release and return to God!
          >
          > Synergy, for the unconverted man, means assenting to the release effected by
          > our Passover Lamb, Christ. Basically that's all that fallen man can do is
          > say yes or no, so that is what God requires. Faith in the heart must work
          > through outward confession and commitment.
          >
          > Synergy for the converted man means struggling against your own love of sin
          > and conditioning toward it (passions) and to persevere by God's Grace in the
          > commandments of God. This is the ascetic struggle, also known as daily
          > repentance or bearing the cross and following Christ. Again, it's about
          > willingly and purposefully growing closer to God. Man is invited to do it,
          > and God supplies the Grace of His Spirit so it is possible. God is not
          > passive man's autopilot, but rather the active man's Energizer. The Holy
          > Spirit perfects, He does not take over. The demons do not respect free will
          > and try to trick man and lead him into bondage so that they can take over a
          > man.
          >
          > In the faith-works paradigm man believes and so he works. His work is
          > beneficial in his growth in God because God supplies His personal Energies
          > (Grace) to man. The believing man is the active man. Faith works. In
          > Lutheranism faith is a passive recipient, and based on what is received it
          > works in gratitude. In Orthodoxy faith is activity, and this active faith
          > receives Grace, which draws man deeper into union with God and furthers the
          > potency of his personal spiritual warfare.
          >
          > I hope this is a decent start.
          >
          > In Christ,
          > Benjamin Harju
          >
          >
          > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 3:23 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...> wrote:
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > I'll be honest- even though I've done my fair share of research and
          > > dictionary looking, I still don't quite understand synergy, how it relates
          > > to the whole faith vs. works thing, etc.
          > >
          > > If y'all could help me understand it better, that would be greatly
          > > appreciated.
          > >
          > > - Tim
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • mrthatoneguy92
          Thank you, Christopher, for your help! I appreciate what you have said. 1) One of the first things I saw as being an area of agreement between Lutheranism and
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 7, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Thank you, Christopher, for your help! I appreciate what you have said.

            1) One of the first things I saw as being an area of agreement between Lutheranism and Orthodoxy is that salvation cannot be earned. I have always appreciated that in all my talks with Orthodox Christians, that there has always been an emphasis on the fact that salvation is not earned. It helped me overcome some automatic safeguards that would have come up due to being raised Lutheran.

            2) I have been looking at the whole theology of God's Essence and Energies. I am still confused (which I suppose is normal at this stage). However, despite my lack of understanding, I still see what you are trying to get at.

            --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, xcjorr@... wrote:
            >
            > I would add that if you remove the idea that 1) salvation is earned and the idea that 2) grace is simply God's undeserved favor rather than God's energies and presence, then the synergy 'problem' ceases to be a problem at all.
            >
            > That is, this is a problem created by the Lutheran schema.
            >
            > Christopher
            > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@...>
            > Sender: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 19:02:12
            > To: <LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com>
            > Reply-To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Synergy
            >
            > Tim,
            >
            > Synergy is based on the notion of human freedom and God's respect of that
            > freedom. Fallen man is bound as a captive under the tyranny of the devil.
            > He is comparable to the Israelites enslaved by the Egyptians. The power
            > holding fallen man in bondage is death, and its sting is sin (1Co 15:56).
            > So fallen man is under a tyrant, suffers the lash of sin, and is shackled to
            > Hades by death. Yet in this situation he can still exercise his will,
            > though because of his bondage to sin and death he cannot fully or
            > consistently accomplish that will. And, of course, his will cannot
            > accomplish his release and return to God!
            >
            > Synergy, for the unconverted man, means assenting to the release effected by
            > our Passover Lamb, Christ. Basically that's all that fallen man can do is
            > say yes or no, so that is what God requires. Faith in the heart must work
            > through outward confession and commitment.
            >
            > Synergy for the converted man means struggling against your own love of sin
            > and conditioning toward it (passions) and to persevere by God's Grace in the
            > commandments of God. This is the ascetic struggle, also known as daily
            > repentance or bearing the cross and following Christ. Again, it's about
            > willingly and purposefully growing closer to God. Man is invited to do it,
            > and God supplies the Grace of His Spirit so it is possible. God is not
            > passive man's autopilot, but rather the active man's Energizer. The Holy
            > Spirit perfects, He does not take over. The demons do not respect free will
            > and try to trick man and lead him into bondage so that they can take over a
            > man.
            >
            > In the faith-works paradigm man believes and so he works. His work is
            > beneficial in his growth in God because God supplies His personal Energies
            > (Grace) to man. The believing man is the active man. Faith works. In
            > Lutheranism faith is a passive recipient, and based on what is received it
            > works in gratitude. In Orthodoxy faith is activity, and this active faith
            > receives Grace, which draws man deeper into union with God and furthers the
            > potency of his personal spiritual warfare.
            >
            > I hope this is a decent start.
            >
            > In Christ,
            > Benjamin Harju
            >
            >
            > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 3:23 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...> wrote:
            >
            > >
            > >
            > > I'll be honest- even though I've done my fair share of research and
            > > dictionary looking, I still don't quite understand synergy, how it relates
            > > to the whole faith vs. works thing, etc.
            > >
            > > If y'all could help me understand it better, that would be greatly
            > > appreciated.
            > >
            > > - Tim
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
          • Christopher Orr
            I think it s especially important to remember that no one - including Christ! - earns salvation. Forgiveness is not forgiveness if anyone - including Christ!
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 7, 2010
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              I think it's especially important to remember that no one - including
              Christ! - earns salvation. Forgiveness is not forgiveness if anyone -
              including Christ! - pays for it; that turns forgiveness into reimbursement
              or paying on one's behalf.

              Similarly, sacrifice need not be to anyone. A soldier jumping on a grenade
              to save his friends is not a sacrifice to anyone, it is simply sacrificing,
              giving what need not have been given. Christ's sacrifice is not to any
              person - it is kenosis to the point of death, death on a cross, and descent
              into Hades.

              You won't really 'get' the essence/energies distinction. I don't think I
              have beyond the textbook definition. The shorthand is: God is present
              Personally, Himself in His energies, His actions. Grace is in some sense
              the presence of God Himself - often said to be the Holy Spirit.

              Grace is something that is always present and fillest all things - not just
              the predestined, the elect, those that believe. We are all imbued with
              grace enough to choose and work synergistically, or not; this grace is not
              reserved for some only, in a special, unique way (for some, but not all).

              Christopher




              On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:46 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...> wrote:

              >
              >
              > Thank you, Christopher, for your help! I appreciate what you have said.
              >
              > 1) One of the first things I saw as being an area of agreement between
              > Lutheranism and Orthodoxy is that salvation cannot be earned. I have always
              > appreciated that in all my talks with Orthodox Christians, that there has
              > always been an emphasis on the fact that salvation is not earned. It helped
              > me overcome some automatic safeguards that would have come up due to being
              > raised Lutheran.
              >
              > 2) I have been looking at the whole theology of God's Essence and Energies.
              > I am still confused (which I suppose is normal at this stage). However,
              > despite my lack of understanding, I still see what you are trying to get at.
              >
              >
              > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > xcjorr@... wrote:
              > >
              > > I would add that if you remove the idea that 1) salvation is earned and
              > the idea that 2) grace is simply God's undeserved favor rather than God's
              > energies and presence, then the synergy 'problem' ceases to be a problem at
              > all.
              > >
              > > That is, this is a problem created by the Lutheran schema.
              > >
              > > Christopher
              > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@...>
              > > Sender: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 19:02:12
              > > To: <LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
              > >
              > > Reply-To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Synergy
              > >
              > > Tim,
              > >
              > > Synergy is based on the notion of human freedom and God's respect of that
              > > freedom. Fallen man is bound as a captive under the tyranny of the devil.
              > > He is comparable to the Israelites enslaved by the Egyptians. The power
              > > holding fallen man in bondage is death, and its sting is sin (1Co 15:56).
              > > So fallen man is under a tyrant, suffers the lash of sin, and is shackled
              > to
              > > Hades by death. Yet in this situation he can still exercise his will,
              > > though because of his bondage to sin and death he cannot fully or
              > > consistently accomplish that will. And, of course, his will cannot
              > > accomplish his release and return to God!
              > >
              > > Synergy, for the unconverted man, means assenting to the release effected
              > by
              > > our Passover Lamb, Christ. Basically that's all that fallen man can do is
              > > say yes or no, so that is what God requires. Faith in the heart must work
              > > through outward confession and commitment.
              > >
              > > Synergy for the converted man means struggling against your own love of
              > sin
              > > and conditioning toward it (passions) and to persevere by God's Grace in
              > the
              > > commandments of God. This is the ascetic struggle, also known as daily
              > > repentance or bearing the cross and following Christ. Again, it's about
              > > willingly and purposefully growing closer to God. Man is invited to do
              > it,
              > > and God supplies the Grace of His Spirit so it is possible. God is not
              > > passive man's autopilot, but rather the active man's Energizer. The Holy
              > > Spirit perfects, He does not take over. The demons do not respect free
              > will
              > > and try to trick man and lead him into bondage so that they can take over
              > a
              > > man.
              > >
              > > In the faith-works paradigm man believes and so he works. His work is
              > > beneficial in his growth in God because God supplies His personal
              > Energies
              > > (Grace) to man. The believing man is the active man. Faith works. In
              > > Lutheranism faith is a passive recipient, and based on what is received
              > it
              > > works in gratitude. In Orthodoxy faith is activity, and this active faith
              > > receives Grace, which draws man deeper into union with God and furthers
              > the
              > > potency of his personal spiritual warfare.
              > >
              > > I hope this is a decent start.
              > >
              > > In Christ,
              > > Benjamin Harju
              > >
              > >
              > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 3:23 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > I'll be honest- even though I've done my fair share of research and
              > > > dictionary looking, I still don't quite understand synergy, how it
              > relates
              > > > to the whole faith vs. works thing, etc.
              > > >
              > > > If y'all could help me understand it better, that would be greatly
              > > > appreciated.
              > > >
              > > > - Tim
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • mrthatoneguy92
              Wow... that is deep. I m going to have to chew on that one for awhile.
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 9, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Wow... that is deep. I'm going to have to chew on that one for awhile.

                --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:
                >
                > I think it's especially important to remember that no one - including
                > Christ! - earns salvation. Forgiveness is not forgiveness if anyone -
                > including Christ! - pays for it; that turns forgiveness into reimbursement
                > or paying on one's behalf.
                >
                > Similarly, sacrifice need not be to anyone. A soldier jumping on a grenade
                > to save his friends is not a sacrifice to anyone, it is simply sacrificing,
                > giving what need not have been given. Christ's sacrifice is not to any
                > person - it is kenosis to the point of death, death on a cross, and descent
                > into Hades.
                >
                > You won't really 'get' the essence/energies distinction. I don't think I
                > have beyond the textbook definition. The shorthand is: God is present
                > Personally, Himself in His energies, His actions. Grace is in some sense
                > the presence of God Himself - often said to be the Holy Spirit.
                >
                > Grace is something that is always present and fillest all things - not just
                > the predestined, the elect, those that believe. We are all imbued with
                > grace enough to choose and work synergistically, or not; this grace is not
                > reserved for some only, in a special, unique way (for some, but not all).
                >
                > Christopher
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:46 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...> wrote:
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > Thank you, Christopher, for your help! I appreciate what you have said.
                > >
                > > 1) One of the first things I saw as being an area of agreement between
                > > Lutheranism and Orthodoxy is that salvation cannot be earned. I have always
                > > appreciated that in all my talks with Orthodox Christians, that there has
                > > always been an emphasis on the fact that salvation is not earned. It helped
                > > me overcome some automatic safeguards that would have come up due to being
                > > raised Lutheran.
                > >
                > > 2) I have been looking at the whole theology of God's Essence and Energies.
                > > I am still confused (which I suppose is normal at this stage). However,
                > > despite my lack of understanding, I still see what you are trying to get at.
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > > xcjorr@ wrote:
                > > >
                > > > I would add that if you remove the idea that 1) salvation is earned and
                > > the idea that 2) grace is simply God's undeserved favor rather than God's
                > > energies and presence, then the synergy 'problem' ceases to be a problem at
                > > all.
                > > >
                > > > That is, this is a problem created by the Lutheran schema.
                > > >
                > > > Christopher
                > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                > > >
                > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > From: Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@>
                > > > Sender: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 19:02:12
                > > > To: <LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > >
                > > > Reply-To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Synergy
                > > >
                > > > Tim,
                > > >
                > > > Synergy is based on the notion of human freedom and God's respect of that
                > > > freedom. Fallen man is bound as a captive under the tyranny of the devil.
                > > > He is comparable to the Israelites enslaved by the Egyptians. The power
                > > > holding fallen man in bondage is death, and its sting is sin (1Co 15:56).
                > > > So fallen man is under a tyrant, suffers the lash of sin, and is shackled
                > > to
                > > > Hades by death. Yet in this situation he can still exercise his will,
                > > > though because of his bondage to sin and death he cannot fully or
                > > > consistently accomplish that will. And, of course, his will cannot
                > > > accomplish his release and return to God!
                > > >
                > > > Synergy, for the unconverted man, means assenting to the release effected
                > > by
                > > > our Passover Lamb, Christ. Basically that's all that fallen man can do is
                > > > say yes or no, so that is what God requires. Faith in the heart must work
                > > > through outward confession and commitment.
                > > >
                > > > Synergy for the converted man means struggling against your own love of
                > > sin
                > > > and conditioning toward it (passions) and to persevere by God's Grace in
                > > the
                > > > commandments of God. This is the ascetic struggle, also known as daily
                > > > repentance or bearing the cross and following Christ. Again, it's about
                > > > willingly and purposefully growing closer to God. Man is invited to do
                > > it,
                > > > and God supplies the Grace of His Spirit so it is possible. God is not
                > > > passive man's autopilot, but rather the active man's Energizer. The Holy
                > > > Spirit perfects, He does not take over. The demons do not respect free
                > > will
                > > > and try to trick man and lead him into bondage so that they can take over
                > > a
                > > > man.
                > > >
                > > > In the faith-works paradigm man believes and so he works. His work is
                > > > beneficial in his growth in God because God supplies His personal
                > > Energies
                > > > (Grace) to man. The believing man is the active man. Faith works. In
                > > > Lutheranism faith is a passive recipient, and based on what is received
                > > it
                > > > works in gratitude. In Orthodoxy faith is activity, and this active faith
                > > > receives Grace, which draws man deeper into union with God and furthers
                > > the
                > > > potency of his personal spiritual warfare.
                > > >
                > > > I hope this is a decent start.
                > > >
                > > > In Christ,
                > > > Benjamin Harju
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 3:23 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > I'll be honest- even though I've done my fair share of research and
                > > > > dictionary looking, I still don't quite understand synergy, how it
                > > relates
                > > > > to the whole faith vs. works thing, etc.
                > > > >
                > > > > If y'all could help me understand it better, that would be greatly
                > > > > appreciated.
                > > > >
                > > > > - Tim
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ------------------------------------
                > > >
                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • mrthatoneguy92
                So, synergy could basically be described as God working within and through us, and us cooperating with that said work?
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 13, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  So, synergy could basically be described as God working within and through us, and us cooperating with that said work?


                  --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "mrthatoneguy92" <timsteele2@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Wow... that is deep. I'm going to have to chew on that one for awhile.
                  >
                  > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I think it's especially important to remember that no one - including
                  > > Christ! - earns salvation. Forgiveness is not forgiveness if anyone -
                  > > including Christ! - pays for it; that turns forgiveness into reimbursement
                  > > or paying on one's behalf.
                  > >
                  > > Similarly, sacrifice need not be to anyone. A soldier jumping on a grenade
                  > > to save his friends is not a sacrifice to anyone, it is simply sacrificing,
                  > > giving what need not have been given. Christ's sacrifice is not to any
                  > > person - it is kenosis to the point of death, death on a cross, and descent
                  > > into Hades.
                  > >
                  > > You won't really 'get' the essence/energies distinction. I don't think I
                  > > have beyond the textbook definition. The shorthand is: God is present
                  > > Personally, Himself in His energies, His actions. Grace is in some sense
                  > > the presence of God Himself - often said to be the Holy Spirit.
                  > >
                  > > Grace is something that is always present and fillest all things - not just
                  > > the predestined, the elect, those that believe. We are all imbued with
                  > > grace enough to choose and work synergistically, or not; this grace is not
                  > > reserved for some only, in a special, unique way (for some, but not all).
                  > >
                  > > Christopher
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:46 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Thank you, Christopher, for your help! I appreciate what you have said.
                  > > >
                  > > > 1) One of the first things I saw as being an area of agreement between
                  > > > Lutheranism and Orthodoxy is that salvation cannot be earned. I have always
                  > > > appreciated that in all my talks with Orthodox Christians, that there has
                  > > > always been an emphasis on the fact that salvation is not earned. It helped
                  > > > me overcome some automatic safeguards that would have come up due to being
                  > > > raised Lutheran.
                  > > >
                  > > > 2) I have been looking at the whole theology of God's Essence and Energies.
                  > > > I am still confused (which I suppose is normal at this stage). However,
                  > > > despite my lack of understanding, I still see what you are trying to get at.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > > > xcjorr@ wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I would add that if you remove the idea that 1) salvation is earned and
                  > > > the idea that 2) grace is simply God's undeserved favor rather than God's
                  > > > energies and presence, then the synergy 'problem' ceases to be a problem at
                  > > > all.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > That is, this is a problem created by the Lutheran schema.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Christopher
                  > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                  > > > >
                  > > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > > From: Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@>
                  > > > > Sender: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 19:02:12
                  > > > > To: <LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Reply-To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Synergy
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Tim,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Synergy is based on the notion of human freedom and God's respect of that
                  > > > > freedom. Fallen man is bound as a captive under the tyranny of the devil.
                  > > > > He is comparable to the Israelites enslaved by the Egyptians. The power
                  > > > > holding fallen man in bondage is death, and its sting is sin (1Co 15:56).
                  > > > > So fallen man is under a tyrant, suffers the lash of sin, and is shackled
                  > > > to
                  > > > > Hades by death. Yet in this situation he can still exercise his will,
                  > > > > though because of his bondage to sin and death he cannot fully or
                  > > > > consistently accomplish that will. And, of course, his will cannot
                  > > > > accomplish his release and return to God!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Synergy, for the unconverted man, means assenting to the release effected
                  > > > by
                  > > > > our Passover Lamb, Christ. Basically that's all that fallen man can do is
                  > > > > say yes or no, so that is what God requires. Faith in the heart must work
                  > > > > through outward confession and commitment.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Synergy for the converted man means struggling against your own love of
                  > > > sin
                  > > > > and conditioning toward it (passions) and to persevere by God's Grace in
                  > > > the
                  > > > > commandments of God. This is the ascetic struggle, also known as daily
                  > > > > repentance or bearing the cross and following Christ. Again, it's about
                  > > > > willingly and purposefully growing closer to God. Man is invited to do
                  > > > it,
                  > > > > and God supplies the Grace of His Spirit so it is possible. God is not
                  > > > > passive man's autopilot, but rather the active man's Energizer. The Holy
                  > > > > Spirit perfects, He does not take over. The demons do not respect free
                  > > > will
                  > > > > and try to trick man and lead him into bondage so that they can take over
                  > > > a
                  > > > > man.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > In the faith-works paradigm man believes and so he works. His work is
                  > > > > beneficial in his growth in God because God supplies His personal
                  > > > Energies
                  > > > > (Grace) to man. The believing man is the active man. Faith works. In
                  > > > > Lutheranism faith is a passive recipient, and based on what is received
                  > > > it
                  > > > > works in gratitude. In Orthodoxy faith is activity, and this active faith
                  > > > > receives Grace, which draws man deeper into union with God and furthers
                  > > > the
                  > > > > potency of his personal spiritual warfare.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I hope this is a decent start.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > In Christ,
                  > > > > Benjamin Harju
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 3:23 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I'll be honest- even though I've done my fair share of research and
                  > > > > > dictionary looking, I still don't quite understand synergy, how it
                  > > > relates
                  > > > > > to the whole faith vs. works thing, etc.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > If y'all could help me understand it better, that would be greatly
                  > > > > > appreciated.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > - Tim
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ------------------------------------
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                • Benjamin Harju
                  Yes, basically. If you have further concerns about synergy, I hope you will continue to feel free to address them. Since salvation is not ever something
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 13, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Yes, basically. If you have further concerns about synergy, I hope you will
                    continue to feel free to address them.

                    Since salvation is not ever something anyone can earn, but is rather
                    something we must engage and assimilate through activity (faith works),
                    synergy is a must. In Orthodoxy pure passivity would keep a person from
                    ever assimilating the Divine gift of salvation (like only half-believing, if
                    there could be such a thing). The role of synergy comes to the fore in
                    daily life - in prayer and keeping the commandments. Here the Christian is
                    faced with his/her own sin and need for God. The Church, through 2000 years
                    of experience, has learned the common depths of sin at work - the passions -
                    and is able to guide the penitent in the struggle, so that the struggle is a
                    profitable one. Awareness of the influence of the passions is a must for
                    the one who wishes to know what synergy is all about in Orthodoxy, because
                    synergy is most often a struggle - by the Grace of God - against one's own
                    sin and toward the gifts that God offers. Struggle is key; it is the
                    constant activity of faith.

                    A good (GREAT) book that articulates the practical role of synergy in
                    spiritual struggle is "Path to Sanity" by Dee Pennock. It outlines the
                    influence of the major passions and directs the Christian in the proper
                    manner of spiritual struggle. I wish I had read it as a Lutheran.

                    The practice of synergy reveals a deep dimension to sin that I did not find
                    in Lutheranism - not even in Luther's Theology of the Cross - a seriousness
                    that Lutheranism does not know (despite how serious it desires to take
                    sin!). I know that sounds like a slam, and I apologize for my bluntness,
                    but I think it's worth taking the risk of offending someone. The practice
                    of synergy reveals - in an existential sense - the depths of man's (my)
                    sinfulness and the greatness of God's love and mercy toward us. It's the
                    difference between reading about Paris and going to Paris. It is also how
                    the Orthodox take up their cross daily and follow after Christ.

                    In Christ,
                    Benjamin Harju

                    On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 11:50 AM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...>wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > So, synergy could basically be described as God working within and through
                    > us, and us cooperating with that said work?
                    >
                    > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > "mrthatoneguy92" <timsteele2@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Wow... that is deep. I'm going to have to chew on that one for awhile.
                    > >
                    > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > Christopher Orr <xcjorr@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > I think it's especially important to remember that no one - including
                    > > > Christ! - earns salvation. Forgiveness is not forgiveness if anyone -
                    > > > including Christ! - pays for it; that turns forgiveness into
                    > reimbursement
                    > > > or paying on one's behalf.
                    > > >
                    > > > Similarly, sacrifice need not be to anyone. A soldier jumping on a
                    > grenade
                    > > > to save his friends is not a sacrifice to anyone, it is simply
                    > sacrificing,
                    > > > giving what need not have been given. Christ's sacrifice is not to any
                    > > > person - it is kenosis to the point of death, death on a cross, and
                    > descent
                    > > > into Hades.
                    > > >
                    > > > You won't really 'get' the essence/energies distinction. I don't think
                    > I
                    > > > have beyond the textbook definition. The shorthand is: God is present
                    > > > Personally, Himself in His energies, His actions. Grace is in some
                    > sense
                    > > > the presence of God Himself - often said to be the Holy Spirit.
                    > > >
                    > > > Grace is something that is always present and fillest all things - not
                    > just
                    > > > the predestined, the elect, those that believe. We are all imbued with
                    > > > grace enough to choose and work synergistically, or not; this grace is
                    > not
                    > > > reserved for some only, in a special, unique way (for some, but not
                    > all).
                    > > >
                    > > > Christopher
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:46 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Thank you, Christopher, for your help! I appreciate what you have
                    > said.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > 1) One of the first things I saw as being an area of agreement
                    > between
                    > > > > Lutheranism and Orthodoxy is that salvation cannot be earned. I have
                    > always
                    > > > > appreciated that in all my talks with Orthodox Christians, that there
                    > has
                    > > > > always been an emphasis on the fact that salvation is not earned. It
                    > helped
                    > > > > me overcome some automatic safeguards that would have come up due to
                    > being
                    > > > > raised Lutheran.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > 2) I have been looking at the whole theology of God's Essence and
                    > Energies.
                    > > > > I am still confused (which I suppose is normal at this stage).
                    > However,
                    > > > > despite my lack of understanding, I still see what you are trying to
                    > get at.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > > > > xcjorr@ wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I would add that if you remove the idea that 1) salvation is earned
                    > and
                    > > > > the idea that 2) grace is simply God's undeserved favor rather than
                    > God's
                    > > > > energies and presence, then the synergy 'problem' ceases to be a
                    > problem at
                    > > > > all.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > That is, this is a problem created by the Lutheran schema.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Christopher
                    > > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > > > From: Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@>
                    > > > > > Sender: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > > > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 19:02:12
                    > > > > > To: <LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Reply-To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > > > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Synergy
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Tim,
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Synergy is based on the notion of human freedom and God's respect
                    > of that
                    > > > > > freedom. Fallen man is bound as a captive under the tyranny of the
                    > devil.
                    > > > > > He is comparable to the Israelites enslaved by the Egyptians. The
                    > power
                    > > > > > holding fallen man in bondage is death, and its sting is sin (1Co
                    > 15:56).
                    > > > > > So fallen man is under a tyrant, suffers the lash of sin, and is
                    > shackled
                    > > > > to
                    > > > > > Hades by death. Yet in this situation he can still exercise his
                    > will,
                    > > > > > though because of his bondage to sin and death he cannot fully or
                    > > > > > consistently accomplish that will. And, of course, his will cannot
                    > > > > > accomplish his release and return to God!
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Synergy, for the unconverted man, means assenting to the release
                    > effected
                    > > > > by
                    > > > > > our Passover Lamb, Christ. Basically that's all that fallen man can
                    > do is
                    > > > > > say yes or no, so that is what God requires. Faith in the heart
                    > must work
                    > > > > > through outward confession and commitment.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Synergy for the converted man means struggling against your own
                    > love of
                    > > > > sin
                    > > > > > and conditioning toward it (passions) and to persevere by God's
                    > Grace in
                    > > > > the
                    > > > > > commandments of God. This is the ascetic struggle, also known as
                    > daily
                    > > > > > repentance or bearing the cross and following Christ. Again, it's
                    > about
                    > > > > > willingly and purposefully growing closer to God. Man is invited to
                    > do
                    > > > > it,
                    > > > > > and God supplies the Grace of His Spirit so it is possible. God is
                    > not
                    > > > > > passive man's autopilot, but rather the active man's Energizer. The
                    > Holy
                    > > > > > Spirit perfects, He does not take over. The demons do not respect
                    > free
                    > > > > will
                    > > > > > and try to trick man and lead him into bondage so that they can
                    > take over
                    > > > > a
                    > > > > > man.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > In the faith-works paradigm man believes and so he works. His work
                    > is
                    > > > > > beneficial in his growth in God because God supplies His personal
                    > > > > Energies
                    > > > > > (Grace) to man. The believing man is the active man. Faith works.
                    > In
                    > > > > > Lutheranism faith is a passive recipient, and based on what is
                    > received
                    > > > > it
                    > > > > > works in gratitude. In Orthodoxy faith is activity, and this active
                    > faith
                    > > > > > receives Grace, which draws man deeper into union with God and
                    > furthers
                    > > > > the
                    > > > > > potency of his personal spiritual warfare.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I hope this is a decent start.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > In Christ,
                    > > > > > Benjamin Harju
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 3:23 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@>
                    > wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > I'll be honest- even though I've done my fair share of research
                    > and
                    > > > > > > dictionary looking, I still don't quite understand synergy, how
                    > it
                    > > > > relates
                    > > > > > > to the whole faith vs. works thing, etc.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > If y'all could help me understand it better, that would be
                    > greatly
                    > > > > > > appreciated.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > - Tim
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > ------------------------------------
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • mrthatoneguy92
                    Thanks, Mr. Harju. What exactly do you mean by assimilate our salvation? As in living it out and making it a part of our everyday life?
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 14, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Thanks, Mr. Harju.

                      What exactly do you mean by "assimilate" our salvation? As in living it out and making it a part of our everyday life?

                      --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Yes, basically. If you have further concerns about synergy, I hope you will
                      > continue to feel free to address them.
                      >
                      > Since salvation is not ever something anyone can earn, but is rather
                      > something we must engage and assimilate through activity (faith works),
                      > synergy is a must. In Orthodoxy pure passivity would keep a person from
                      > ever assimilating the Divine gift of salvation (like only half-believing, if
                      > there could be such a thing). The role of synergy comes to the fore in
                      > daily life - in prayer and keeping the commandments. Here the Christian is
                      > faced with his/her own sin and need for God. The Church, through 2000 years
                      > of experience, has learned the common depths of sin at work - the passions -
                      > and is able to guide the penitent in the struggle, so that the struggle is a
                      > profitable one. Awareness of the influence of the passions is a must for
                      > the one who wishes to know what synergy is all about in Orthodoxy, because
                      > synergy is most often a struggle - by the Grace of God - against one's own
                      > sin and toward the gifts that God offers. Struggle is key; it is the
                      > constant activity of faith.
                      >
                      > A good (GREAT) book that articulates the practical role of synergy in
                      > spiritual struggle is "Path to Sanity" by Dee Pennock. It outlines the
                      > influence of the major passions and directs the Christian in the proper
                      > manner of spiritual struggle. I wish I had read it as a Lutheran.
                      >
                      > The practice of synergy reveals a deep dimension to sin that I did not find
                      > in Lutheranism - not even in Luther's Theology of the Cross - a seriousness
                      > that Lutheranism does not know (despite how serious it desires to take
                      > sin!). I know that sounds like a slam, and I apologize for my bluntness,
                      > but I think it's worth taking the risk of offending someone. The practice
                      > of synergy reveals - in an existential sense - the depths of man's (my)
                      > sinfulness and the greatness of God's love and mercy toward us. It's the
                      > difference between reading about Paris and going to Paris. It is also how
                      > the Orthodox take up their cross daily and follow after Christ.
                      >
                      > In Christ,
                      > Benjamin Harju
                      >
                      > On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 11:50 AM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...>wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > So, synergy could basically be described as God working within and through
                      > > us, and us cooperating with that said work?
                      > >
                      > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                      > > "mrthatoneguy92" <timsteele2@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Wow... that is deep. I'm going to have to chew on that one for awhile.
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                      > > Christopher Orr <xcjorr@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I think it's especially important to remember that no one - including
                      > > > > Christ! - earns salvation. Forgiveness is not forgiveness if anyone -
                      > > > > including Christ! - pays for it; that turns forgiveness into
                      > > reimbursement
                      > > > > or paying on one's behalf.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Similarly, sacrifice need not be to anyone. A soldier jumping on a
                      > > grenade
                      > > > > to save his friends is not a sacrifice to anyone, it is simply
                      > > sacrificing,
                      > > > > giving what need not have been given. Christ's sacrifice is not to any
                      > > > > person - it is kenosis to the point of death, death on a cross, and
                      > > descent
                      > > > > into Hades.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > You won't really 'get' the essence/energies distinction. I don't think
                      > > I
                      > > > > have beyond the textbook definition. The shorthand is: God is present
                      > > > > Personally, Himself in His energies, His actions. Grace is in some
                      > > sense
                      > > > > the presence of God Himself - often said to be the Holy Spirit.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Grace is something that is always present and fillest all things - not
                      > > just
                      > > > > the predestined, the elect, those that believe. We are all imbued with
                      > > > > grace enough to choose and work synergistically, or not; this grace is
                      > > not
                      > > > > reserved for some only, in a special, unique way (for some, but not
                      > > all).
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Christopher
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:46 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Thank you, Christopher, for your help! I appreciate what you have
                      > > said.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > 1) One of the first things I saw as being an area of agreement
                      > > between
                      > > > > > Lutheranism and Orthodoxy is that salvation cannot be earned. I have
                      > > always
                      > > > > > appreciated that in all my talks with Orthodox Christians, that there
                      > > has
                      > > > > > always been an emphasis on the fact that salvation is not earned. It
                      > > helped
                      > > > > > me overcome some automatic safeguards that would have come up due to
                      > > being
                      > > > > > raised Lutheran.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > 2) I have been looking at the whole theology of God's Essence and
                      > > Energies.
                      > > > > > I am still confused (which I suppose is normal at this stage).
                      > > However,
                      > > > > > despite my lack of understanding, I still see what you are trying to
                      > > get at.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                      > > > > > xcjorr@ wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I would add that if you remove the idea that 1) salvation is earned
                      > > and
                      > > > > > the idea that 2) grace is simply God's undeserved favor rather than
                      > > God's
                      > > > > > energies and presence, then the synergy 'problem' ceases to be a
                      > > problem at
                      > > > > > all.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > That is, this is a problem created by the Lutheran schema.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Christopher
                      > > > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > > > > From: Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@>
                      > > > > > > Sender: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > > > > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 19:02:12
                      > > > > > > To: <LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Reply-To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > > > > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Synergy
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Tim,
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Synergy is based on the notion of human freedom and God's respect
                      > > of that
                      > > > > > > freedom. Fallen man is bound as a captive under the tyranny of the
                      > > devil.
                      > > > > > > He is comparable to the Israelites enslaved by the Egyptians. The
                      > > power
                      > > > > > > holding fallen man in bondage is death, and its sting is sin (1Co
                      > > 15:56).
                      > > > > > > So fallen man is under a tyrant, suffers the lash of sin, and is
                      > > shackled
                      > > > > > to
                      > > > > > > Hades by death. Yet in this situation he can still exercise his
                      > > will,
                      > > > > > > though because of his bondage to sin and death he cannot fully or
                      > > > > > > consistently accomplish that will. And, of course, his will cannot
                      > > > > > > accomplish his release and return to God!
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Synergy, for the unconverted man, means assenting to the release
                      > > effected
                      > > > > > by
                      > > > > > > our Passover Lamb, Christ. Basically that's all that fallen man can
                      > > do is
                      > > > > > > say yes or no, so that is what God requires. Faith in the heart
                      > > must work
                      > > > > > > through outward confession and commitment.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Synergy for the converted man means struggling against your own
                      > > love of
                      > > > > > sin
                      > > > > > > and conditioning toward it (passions) and to persevere by God's
                      > > Grace in
                      > > > > > the
                      > > > > > > commandments of God. This is the ascetic struggle, also known as
                      > > daily
                      > > > > > > repentance or bearing the cross and following Christ. Again, it's
                      > > about
                      > > > > > > willingly and purposefully growing closer to God. Man is invited to
                      > > do
                      > > > > > it,
                      > > > > > > and God supplies the Grace of His Spirit so it is possible. God is
                      > > not
                      > > > > > > passive man's autopilot, but rather the active man's Energizer. The
                      > > Holy
                      > > > > > > Spirit perfects, He does not take over. The demons do not respect
                      > > free
                      > > > > > will
                      > > > > > > and try to trick man and lead him into bondage so that they can
                      > > take over
                      > > > > > a
                      > > > > > > man.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > In the faith-works paradigm man believes and so he works. His work
                      > > is
                      > > > > > > beneficial in his growth in God because God supplies His personal
                      > > > > > Energies
                      > > > > > > (Grace) to man. The believing man is the active man. Faith works.
                      > > In
                      > > > > > > Lutheranism faith is a passive recipient, and based on what is
                      > > received
                      > > > > > it
                      > > > > > > works in gratitude. In Orthodoxy faith is activity, and this active
                      > > faith
                      > > > > > > receives Grace, which draws man deeper into union with God and
                      > > furthers
                      > > > > > the
                      > > > > > > potency of his personal spiritual warfare.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I hope this is a decent start.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > In Christ,
                      > > > > > > Benjamin Harju
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 3:23 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > I'll be honest- even though I've done my fair share of research
                      > > and
                      > > > > > > > dictionary looking, I still don't quite understand synergy, how
                      > > it
                      > > > > > relates
                      > > > > > > > to the whole faith vs. works thing, etc.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > If y'all could help me understand it better, that would be
                      > > greatly
                      > > > > > > > appreciated.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > - Tim
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > ------------------------------------
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Benjamin Harju
                      Yeah, like that. Also in the sense that our everyday life becomes an expression of the life of Jesus Christ, with whom we are united in communion. I chose
                      Message 10 of 12 , Sep 14, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Yeah, like that. Also in the sense that our everyday life becomes an
                        expression of the life of Jesus Christ, with whom we are united in
                        communion. I chose the word assimilate because it expresses the idea that
                        the salvation that our Lord accomplishes is something that is kneaded
                        throughout the whole of a person. Our activity not only is the work of
                        faith, but is also our cooperation with the goal of Divine Grace. Apart
                        from our active engagement of God's willing and working in us, we never get
                        beyond the potential or theory of what we believe Christ has done for us.
                        All this is to say that Christ's cross and resurrection are intended to
                        accomplish a change, a healing, in each unique person. God will not force
                        this healing change, just as He did not force Adam and Eve to remain
                        faithful, so it is left to us to take responsibility for our own involvement
                        in the salvation Christ has for us. Like dough we need to be kneaded, but
                        like those who are one day to be held accountable for themselves we must
                        freely struggle to submit to the Creator's deft hands.

                        In Christ,
                        Benjamin Harju


                        On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 3:12 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...>wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        > Thanks, Mr. Harju.
                        >
                        > What exactly do you mean by "assimilate" our salvation? As in living it out
                        > and making it a part of our everyday life?
                        >
                        > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                        > Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Yes, basically. If you have further concerns about synergy, I hope you
                        > will
                        > > continue to feel free to address them.
                        > >
                        > > Since salvation is not ever something anyone can earn, but is rather
                        > > something we must engage and assimilate through activity (faith works),
                        > > synergy is a must. In Orthodoxy pure passivity would keep a person from
                        > > ever assimilating the Divine gift of salvation (like only half-believing,
                        > if
                        > > there could be such a thing). The role of synergy comes to the fore in
                        > > daily life - in prayer and keeping the commandments. Here the Christian
                        > is
                        > > faced with his/her own sin and need for God. The Church, through 2000
                        > years
                        > > of experience, has learned the common depths of sin at work - the
                        > passions -
                        > > and is able to guide the penitent in the struggle, so that the struggle
                        > is a
                        > > profitable one. Awareness of the influence of the passions is a must for
                        > > the one who wishes to know what synergy is all about in Orthodoxy,
                        > because
                        > > synergy is most often a struggle - by the Grace of God - against one's
                        > own
                        > > sin and toward the gifts that God offers. Struggle is key; it is the
                        > > constant activity of faith.
                        > >
                        > > A good (GREAT) book that articulates the practical role of synergy in
                        > > spiritual struggle is "Path to Sanity" by Dee Pennock. It outlines the
                        > > influence of the major passions and directs the Christian in the proper
                        > > manner of spiritual struggle. I wish I had read it as a Lutheran.
                        > >
                        > > The practice of synergy reveals a deep dimension to sin that I did not
                        > find
                        > > in Lutheranism - not even in Luther's Theology of the Cross - a
                        > seriousness
                        > > that Lutheranism does not know (despite how serious it desires to take
                        > > sin!). I know that sounds like a slam, and I apologize for my bluntness,
                        > > but I think it's worth taking the risk of offending someone. The practice
                        > > of synergy reveals - in an existential sense - the depths of man's (my)
                        > > sinfulness and the greatness of God's love and mercy toward us. It's the
                        > > difference between reading about Paris and going to Paris. It is also how
                        > > the Orthodox take up their cross daily and follow after Christ.
                        > >
                        > > In Christ,
                        > > Benjamin Harju
                        > >
                        > > On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 11:50 AM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...>wrote:
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > So, synergy could basically be described as God working within and
                        > through
                        > > > us, and us cooperating with that said work?
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                        > > > "mrthatoneguy92" <timsteele2@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Wow... that is deep. I'm going to have to chew on that one for
                        > awhile.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                        > > > Christopher Orr <xcjorr@> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I think it's especially important to remember that no one -
                        > including
                        > > > > > Christ! - earns salvation. Forgiveness is not forgiveness if anyone
                        > -
                        > > > > > including Christ! - pays for it; that turns forgiveness into
                        > > > reimbursement
                        > > > > > or paying on one's behalf.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Similarly, sacrifice need not be to anyone. A soldier jumping on a
                        > > > grenade
                        > > > > > to save his friends is not a sacrifice to anyone, it is simply
                        > > > sacrificing,
                        > > > > > giving what need not have been given. Christ's sacrifice is not to
                        > any
                        > > > > > person - it is kenosis to the point of death, death on a cross, and
                        > > > descent
                        > > > > > into Hades.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > You won't really 'get' the essence/energies distinction. I don't
                        > think
                        > > > I
                        > > > > > have beyond the textbook definition. The shorthand is: God is
                        > present
                        > > > > > Personally, Himself in His energies, His actions. Grace is in some
                        > > > sense
                        > > > > > the presence of God Himself - often said to be the Holy Spirit.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Grace is something that is always present and fillest all things -
                        > not
                        > > > just
                        > > > > > the predestined, the elect, those that believe. We are all imbued
                        > with
                        > > > > > grace enough to choose and work synergistically, or not; this grace
                        > is
                        > > > not
                        > > > > > reserved for some only, in a special, unique way (for some, but not
                        > > > all).
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Christopher
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:46 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@>
                        > wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Thank you, Christopher, for your help! I appreciate what you have
                        > > > said.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > 1) One of the first things I saw as being an area of agreement
                        > > > between
                        > > > > > > Lutheranism and Orthodoxy is that salvation cannot be earned. I
                        > have
                        > > > always
                        > > > > > > appreciated that in all my talks with Orthodox Christians, that
                        > there
                        > > > has
                        > > > > > > always been an emphasis on the fact that salvation is not earned.
                        > It
                        > > > helped
                        > > > > > > me overcome some automatic safeguards that would have come up due
                        > to
                        > > > being
                        > > > > > > raised Lutheran.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > 2) I have been looking at the whole theology of God's Essence and
                        > > > Energies.
                        > > > > > > I am still confused (which I suppose is normal at this stage).
                        > > > However,
                        > > > > > > despite my lack of understanding, I still see what you are trying
                        > to
                        > > > get at.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                        > > > > > > xcjorr@ wrote:
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > I would add that if you remove the idea that 1) salvation is
                        > earned
                        > > > and
                        > > > > > > the idea that 2) grace is simply God's undeserved favor rather
                        > than
                        > > > God's
                        > > > > > > energies and presence, then the synergy 'problem' ceases to be a
                        > > > problem at
                        > > > > > > all.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > That is, this is a problem created by the Lutheran schema.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Christopher
                        > > > > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > > > > > > From: Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@>
                        > > > > > > > Sender: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 19:02:12
                        > > > > > > > To: <LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Reply-To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Synergy
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Tim,
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Synergy is based on the notion of human freedom and God's
                        > respect
                        > > > of that
                        > > > > > > > freedom. Fallen man is bound as a captive under the tyranny of
                        > the
                        > > > devil.
                        > > > > > > > He is comparable to the Israelites enslaved by the Egyptians.
                        > The
                        > > > power
                        > > > > > > > holding fallen man in bondage is death, and its sting is sin
                        > (1Co
                        > > > 15:56).
                        > > > > > > > So fallen man is under a tyrant, suffers the lash of sin, and
                        > is
                        > > > shackled
                        > > > > > > to
                        > > > > > > > Hades by death. Yet in this situation he can still exercise his
                        > > > will,
                        > > > > > > > though because of his bondage to sin and death he cannot fully
                        > or
                        > > > > > > > consistently accomplish that will. And, of course, his will
                        > cannot
                        > > > > > > > accomplish his release and return to God!
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Synergy, for the unconverted man, means assenting to the
                        > release
                        > > > effected
                        > > > > > > by
                        > > > > > > > our Passover Lamb, Christ. Basically that's all that fallen man
                        > can
                        > > > do is
                        > > > > > > > say yes or no, so that is what God requires. Faith in the heart
                        > > > must work
                        > > > > > > > through outward confession and commitment.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Synergy for the converted man means struggling against your own
                        > > > love of
                        > > > > > > sin
                        > > > > > > > and conditioning toward it (passions) and to persevere by God's
                        > > > Grace in
                        > > > > > > the
                        > > > > > > > commandments of God. This is the ascetic struggle, also known
                        > as
                        > > > daily
                        > > > > > > > repentance or bearing the cross and following Christ. Again,
                        > it's
                        > > > about
                        > > > > > > > willingly and purposefully growing closer to God. Man is
                        > invited to
                        > > > do
                        > > > > > > it,
                        > > > > > > > and God supplies the Grace of His Spirit so it is possible. God
                        > is
                        > > > not
                        > > > > > > > passive man's autopilot, but rather the active man's Energizer.
                        > The
                        > > > Holy
                        > > > > > > > Spirit perfects, He does not take over. The demons do not
                        > respect
                        > > > free
                        > > > > > > will
                        > > > > > > > and try to trick man and lead him into bondage so that they can
                        > > > take over
                        > > > > > > a
                        > > > > > > > man.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > In the faith-works paradigm man believes and so he works. His
                        > work
                        > > > is
                        > > > > > > > beneficial in his growth in God because God supplies His
                        > personal
                        > > > > > > Energies
                        > > > > > > > (Grace) to man. The believing man is the active man. Faith
                        > works.
                        > > > In
                        > > > > > > > Lutheranism faith is a passive recipient, and based on what is
                        > > > received
                        > > > > > > it
                        > > > > > > > works in gratitude. In Orthodoxy faith is activity, and this
                        > active
                        > > > faith
                        > > > > > > > receives Grace, which draws man deeper into union with God and
                        > > > furthers
                        > > > > > > the
                        > > > > > > > potency of his personal spiritual warfare.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > I hope this is a decent start.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > In Christ,
                        > > > > > > > Benjamin Harju
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 3:23 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@>
                        > > > wrote:
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > I'll be honest- even though I've done my fair share of
                        > research
                        > > > and
                        > > > > > > > > dictionary looking, I still don't quite understand synergy,
                        > how
                        > > > it
                        > > > > > > relates
                        > > > > > > > > to the whole faith vs. works thing, etc.
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > If y'all could help me understand it better, that would be
                        > > > greatly
                        > > > > > > > > appreciated.
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > - Tim
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > ------------------------------------
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Christopher Orr
                        The link I gave before to a Fr. Stephen Freeman post gets at something like this, too. Also, here s a pertinent selection from St. Anthony the Great (+356)
                        Message 11 of 12 , Sep 14, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          The link I gave before to a Fr. Stephen Freeman post gets at something like
                          this, too.

                          Also, here's a pertinent selection from St. Anthony the Great (+356) whose
                          life was written by St. Athanasius:

                          "We remain good through resembling
                          God"<http://orrologion.blogspot.com/2007/04/turning-to-god-we-have-cured-our.html>

                          God is good, dispassionate and immutable. Now someone who thinks it
                          reasonable and true to affirm that God does not change, may well ask how in
                          that case, it is possible to speak of God as rejoicing over those who are
                          good and showing mercy to those who honor Him, while turning away from the
                          wicked and being angry with sinners. To this it must be answered that God
                          neither rejoices nor grows angry, for to rejoice and to be offended are
                          passions; nor is He won over by the gifts of those who honor Him, for that
                          would mean He is swayed by pleasure . . . He is good, and He only bestows
                          blessings and never does harm, remaining always the same. We men, on the
                          other hand, if we remain good through resembling God, are united to Him; but
                          if we become evil through not resembling God, we are separated from Him. By
                          living in holiness, we cleave to God; but by becoming wicked we make Him our
                          enemy. It is not that He grows angry with us in an arbitrary way, but it is
                          our own sins that prevent God from shining within us, and expose us to the
                          demons who punish us. And if through prayer and acts of compassion we gain
                          release from our sins, this does not mean that we have won God over and made
                          Him change, but that through our actions and our turning to God we have
                          cured our wickedness and so once more have enjoyment of God�s goodness. Thus
                          to say that God turns away from the wicked is like saying that the sun hides
                          itself from the blind."

                          - Excerpt from The Philokalia, Vol. 1, Text 150; Engl. tr. by
                          Palmer-Sherrard-Ware, p. 352. Quoted in Orthodox Dogmatic
                          Theology<http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/dogmatics_pomazansky.htm>by
                          Protopresbyter
                          Michael Pomazansky [+1988]; tr. and ed. by Hieromonk Seraphim Rose [+1982]
                          (Platina, CA: St. Herman Press, 1997), p.350-351.


                          Christopher
                          **


                          On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 5:29 PM, Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@...>wrote:

                          > Yeah, like that. Also in the sense that our everyday life becomes an
                          > expression of the life of Jesus Christ, with whom we are united in
                          > communion. I chose the word assimilate because it expresses the idea that
                          > the salvation that our Lord accomplishes is something that is kneaded
                          > throughout the whole of a person. Our activity not only is the work of
                          > faith, but is also our cooperation with the goal of Divine Grace. Apart
                          > from our active engagement of God's willing and working in us, we never get
                          > beyond the potential or theory of what we believe Christ has done for us.
                          > All this is to say that Christ's cross and resurrection are intended to
                          > accomplish a change, a healing, in each unique person. God will not force
                          > this healing change, just as He did not force Adam and Eve to remain
                          > faithful, so it is left to us to take responsibility for our own
                          > involvement
                          > in the salvation Christ has for us. Like dough we need to be kneaded, but
                          > like those who are one day to be held accountable for themselves we must
                          > freely struggle to submit to the Creator's deft hands.
                          >
                          > In Christ,
                          > Benjamin Harju
                          >
                          >
                          > On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 3:12 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...
                          > >wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Thanks, Mr. Harju.
                          > >
                          > > What exactly do you mean by "assimilate" our salvation? As in living it
                          > out
                          > > and making it a part of our everyday life?
                          > >
                          > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%
                          > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                          > > Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@...> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Yes, basically. If you have further concerns about synergy, I hope you
                          > > will
                          > > > continue to feel free to address them.
                          > > >
                          > > > Since salvation is not ever something anyone can earn, but is rather
                          > > > something we must engage and assimilate through activity (faith works),
                          > > > synergy is a must. In Orthodoxy pure passivity would keep a person from
                          > > > ever assimilating the Divine gift of salvation (like only
                          > half-believing,
                          > > if
                          > > > there could be such a thing). The role of synergy comes to the fore in
                          > > > daily life - in prayer and keeping the commandments. Here the Christian
                          > > is
                          > > > faced with his/her own sin and need for God. The Church, through 2000
                          > > years
                          > > > of experience, has learned the common depths of sin at work - the
                          > > passions -
                          > > > and is able to guide the penitent in the struggle, so that the struggle
                          > > is a
                          > > > profitable one. Awareness of the influence of the passions is a must
                          > for
                          > > > the one who wishes to know what synergy is all about in Orthodoxy,
                          > > because
                          > > > synergy is most often a struggle - by the Grace of God - against one's
                          > > own
                          > > > sin and toward the gifts that God offers. Struggle is key; it is the
                          > > > constant activity of faith.
                          > > >
                          > > > A good (GREAT) book that articulates the practical role of synergy in
                          > > > spiritual struggle is "Path to Sanity" by Dee Pennock. It outlines the
                          > > > influence of the major passions and directs the Christian in the proper
                          > > > manner of spiritual struggle. I wish I had read it as a Lutheran.
                          > > >
                          > > > The practice of synergy reveals a deep dimension to sin that I did not
                          > > find
                          > > > in Lutheranism - not even in Luther's Theology of the Cross - a
                          > > seriousness
                          > > > that Lutheranism does not know (despite how serious it desires to take
                          > > > sin!). I know that sounds like a slam, and I apologize for my
                          > bluntness,
                          > > > but I think it's worth taking the risk of offending someone. The
                          > practice
                          > > > of synergy reveals - in an existential sense - the depths of man's (my)
                          > > > sinfulness and the greatness of God's love and mercy toward us. It's
                          > the
                          > > > difference between reading about Paris and going to Paris. It is also
                          > how
                          > > > the Orthodox take up their cross daily and follow after Christ.
                          > > >
                          > > > In Christ,
                          > > > Benjamin Harju
                          > > >
                          > > > On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 11:50 AM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@
                          > ...>wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > So, synergy could basically be described as God working within and
                          > > through
                          > > > > us, and us cooperating with that said work?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%
                          > 40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                          > > > > "mrthatoneguy92" <timsteele2@> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Wow... that is deep. I'm going to have to chew on that one for
                          > > awhile.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%
                          > 40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                          > > > > Christopher Orr <xcjorr@> wrote:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > I think it's especially important to remember that no one -
                          > > including
                          > > > > > > Christ! - earns salvation. Forgiveness is not forgiveness if
                          > anyone
                          > > -
                          > > > > > > including Christ! - pays for it; that turns forgiveness into
                          > > > > reimbursement
                          > > > > > > or paying on one's behalf.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Similarly, sacrifice need not be to anyone. A soldier jumping on
                          > a
                          > > > > grenade
                          > > > > > > to save his friends is not a sacrifice to anyone, it is simply
                          > > > > sacrificing,
                          > > > > > > giving what need not have been given. Christ's sacrifice is not
                          > to
                          > > any
                          > > > > > > person - it is kenosis to the point of death, death on a cross,
                          > and
                          > > > > descent
                          > > > > > > into Hades.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > You won't really 'get' the essence/energies distinction. I don't
                          > > think
                          > > > > I
                          > > > > > > have beyond the textbook definition. The shorthand is: God is
                          > > present
                          > > > > > > Personally, Himself in His energies, His actions. Grace is in
                          > some
                          > > > > sense
                          > > > > > > the presence of God Himself - often said to be the Holy Spirit.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Grace is something that is always present and fillest all things
                          > -
                          > > not
                          > > > > just
                          > > > > > > the predestined, the elect, those that believe. We are all imbued
                          > > with
                          > > > > > > grace enough to choose and work synergistically, or not; this
                          > grace
                          > > is
                          > > > > not
                          > > > > > > reserved for some only, in a special, unique way (for some, but
                          > not
                          > > > > all).
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Christopher
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:46 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Thank you, Christopher, for your help! I appreciate what you
                          > have
                          > > > > said.
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > 1) One of the first things I saw as being an area of agreement
                          > > > > between
                          > > > > > > > Lutheranism and Orthodoxy is that salvation cannot be earned. I
                          > > have
                          > > > > always
                          > > > > > > > appreciated that in all my talks with Orthodox Christians, that
                          > > there
                          > > > > has
                          > > > > > > > always been an emphasis on the fact that salvation is not
                          > earned.
                          > > It
                          > > > > helped
                          > > > > > > > me overcome some automatic safeguards that would have come up
                          > due
                          > > to
                          > > > > being
                          > > > > > > > raised Lutheran.
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > 2) I have been looking at the whole theology of God's Essence
                          > and
                          > > > > Energies.
                          > > > > > > > I am still confused (which I suppose is normal at this stage).
                          > > > > However,
                          > > > > > > > despite my lack of understanding, I still see what you are
                          > trying
                          > > to
                          > > > > get at.
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                          > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                          > > > > > > > xcjorr@ wrote:
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > I would add that if you remove the idea that 1) salvation is
                          > > earned
                          > > > > and
                          > > > > > > > the idea that 2) grace is simply God's undeserved favor rather
                          > > than
                          > > > > God's
                          > > > > > > > energies and presence, then the synergy 'problem' ceases to be
                          > a
                          > > > > problem at
                          > > > > > > > all.
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > That is, this is a problem created by the Lutheran schema.
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > Christopher
                          > > > > > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > > > > > > > From: Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@>
                          > > > > > > > > Sender: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                          > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 19:02:12
                          > > > > > > > > To: <LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                          > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > Reply-To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                          > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Synergy
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > Tim,
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > Synergy is based on the notion of human freedom and God's
                          > > respect
                          > > > > of that
                          > > > > > > > > freedom. Fallen man is bound as a captive under the tyranny
                          > of
                          > > the
                          > > > > devil.
                          > > > > > > > > He is comparable to the Israelites enslaved by the Egyptians.
                          > > The
                          > > > > power
                          > > > > > > > > holding fallen man in bondage is death, and its sting is sin
                          > > (1Co
                          > > > > 15:56).
                          > > > > > > > > So fallen man is under a tyrant, suffers the lash of sin, and
                          > > is
                          > > > > shackled
                          > > > > > > > to
                          > > > > > > > > Hades by death. Yet in this situation he can still exercise
                          > his
                          > > > > will,
                          > > > > > > > > though because of his bondage to sin and death he cannot
                          > fully
                          > > or
                          > > > > > > > > consistently accomplish that will. And, of course, his will
                          > > cannot
                          > > > > > > > > accomplish his release and return to God!
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > Synergy, for the unconverted man, means assenting to the
                          > > release
                          > > > > effected
                          > > > > > > > by
                          > > > > > > > > our Passover Lamb, Christ. Basically that's all that fallen
                          > man
                          > > can
                          > > > > do is
                          > > > > > > > > say yes or no, so that is what God requires. Faith in the
                          > heart
                          > > > > must work
                          > > > > > > > > through outward confession and commitment.
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > Synergy for the converted man means struggling against your
                          > own
                          > > > > love of
                          > > > > > > > sin
                          > > > > > > > > and conditioning toward it (passions) and to persevere by
                          > God's
                          > > > > Grace in
                          > > > > > > > the
                          > > > > > > > > commandments of God. This is the ascetic struggle, also known
                          > > as
                          > > > > daily
                          > > > > > > > > repentance or bearing the cross and following Christ. Again,
                          > > it's
                          > > > > about
                          > > > > > > > > willingly and purposefully growing closer to God. Man is
                          > > invited to
                          > > > > do
                          > > > > > > > it,
                          > > > > > > > > and God supplies the Grace of His Spirit so it is possible.
                          > God
                          > > is
                          > > > > not
                          > > > > > > > > passive man's autopilot, but rather the active man's
                          > Energizer.
                          > > The
                          > > > > Holy
                          > > > > > > > > Spirit perfects, He does not take over. The demons do not
                          > > respect
                          > > > > free
                          > > > > > > > will
                          > > > > > > > > and try to trick man and lead him into bondage so that they
                          > can
                          > > > > take over
                          > > > > > > > a
                          > > > > > > > > man.
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > In the faith-works paradigm man believes and so he works. His
                          > > work
                          > > > > is
                          > > > > > > > > beneficial in his growth in God because God supplies His
                          > > personal
                          > > > > > > > Energies
                          > > > > > > > > (Grace) to man. The believing man is the active man. Faith
                          > > works.
                          > > > > In
                          > > > > > > > > Lutheranism faith is a passive recipient, and based on what
                          > is
                          > > > > received
                          > > > > > > > it
                          > > > > > > > > works in gratitude. In Orthodoxy faith is activity, and this
                          > > active
                          > > > > faith
                          > > > > > > > > receives Grace, which draws man deeper into union with God
                          > and
                          > > > > furthers
                          > > > > > > > the
                          > > > > > > > > potency of his personal spiritual warfare.
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > I hope this is a decent start.
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > In Christ,
                          > > > > > > > > Benjamin Harju
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 3:23 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@>
                          > > > > wrote:
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > I'll be honest- even though I've done my fair share of
                          > > research
                          > > > > and
                          > > > > > > > > > dictionary looking, I still don't quite understand synergy,
                          > > how
                          > > > > it
                          > > > > > > > relates
                          > > > > > > > > > to the whole faith vs. works thing, etc.
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > If y'all could help me understand it better, that would be
                          > > > > greatly
                          > > > > > > > > > appreciated.
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > - Tim
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------
                          > > > > > > > >
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                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
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                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
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