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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Is it either/or?

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  • matt reader
    Here s a link to some good articles that may be useful regarding East/West metaphysics, energies, etc all by David Bradshaw. http://www.uky.edu/~dbradsh/ Matt
    Message 1 of 43 , Jun 24 4:31 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      Here's a link to some good articles that may be useful regarding East/West metaphysics, energies, etc all by David Bradshaw.

      http://www.uky.edu/~dbradsh/

      Matt

      --- On Wed, 6/23/10, Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@...> wrote:

      From: Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@...>
      Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Is it either/or?
      To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, June 23, 2010, 3:20 PM







       









      Pastor Futrell,



      I like Master Po answers :-) Now, having provided you with a direct

      answer does not do the work of measuring up the claim of Theosis

      against the Scriptures, Fathers, Liturgies, and Councils of the

      Church. It is just a direct answer to your question, not the fullness

      of why.



      If anyone wants a good, tough read that addresses the issue of

      participation in the Divine Energies more thoroughly, give "Being As

      Communion" (by Zizioulos) a try. Dense material, but good.



      In Christ,

      Benjamin Harju



      On 6/23/10, Richard K. Futrell <PastorFutrell@...> wrote:

      > Ben,

      >

      > Thank you so much. I thought I was only going to get "Master Po"

      > answers and vagaries at best. I appreciate your clarity and time to

      > share with me. We have different foci, which is understandable.

      >

      > --

      > Rich Futrell, Pastor

      >

      >























      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Christopher Orr
      I think the important thing that the Orthodox concept of conciliarity brings to the table - and this was demonstrated universally at the Ecumenical Councils -
      Message 43 of 43 , Jun 29 2:35 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        I think the important thing that the Orthodox concept of conciliarity brings
        to the table - and this was demonstrated universally at the Ecumenical
        Councils - is that culture doesn't matter, in the end. The ECs brought
        together multiple cultures; those churches that went into schism or heresy
        did so often as cultural blocks, e.g., Copts, Armenians, or as intellectual
        schools following a given personality and his 'insight' into what
        Christianity 'really' taught, cf. Luther. The ECs brought together semitic
        Syrian culture, Greeks, Latins, Egyptians, Arabs, Armenians, Georgians,
        Persians, and a host of smaller, local cultures we have little understanding
        of today. So, while eastern cultures in general and the Greco-Roman culture
        of the eastern Empire predominated, all the other cultures, in the main,
        signed on to the finding because it represented what was common across
        cultures, linguistic boundaries, politics, etc.

        Christopher



        On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 5:10 PM, matt reader <mattyreader@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > Yes, indeed western and eastern Christians have gone after each other for
        > not being correct, and have often done so for less than theological reasons,
        > but my point is that this is not a valid rationale for dismissing actual
        > theological claims. That's why a case by case study is needed, rather than
        > the statement below (#2) by some Lutherans, Latins, etc who would dismiss
        > disagreements out of hand based upon supposed cultural prejudices. It
        > doesn't always hold up. A useful book that tries to give reasons for various
        > East West differences is named, clearly enough, "The Byzantine Lists: Errors
        > of the Latins" by Tia Kolbaba. It's actually a pretty interesting read.
        >
        > --- On Tue, 6/29/10, Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@...<benjamin.harju%40gmail.com>>
        > wrote:
        >
        > From: Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@...<benjamin.harju%40gmail.com>
        > >
        >
        > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Is it either/or?
        > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
        > Date: Tuesday, June 29, 2010, 1:46 PM
        >
        >
        > From my experience it seems nearly every group of Lutheran that
        > believes being Lutheran is important thinks they are the only "true"
        > Lutheran. I used to buy into that thinking. Having said that, the
        > article did a great job in describing standard Lutheran viewpoints (at
        > least according to the "True Lutherans" I used to be affiliated with).
        >
        > The East and West have had cultural clashes that go back prior to
        > Christianity - and they were not one-sided. The Western Christians
        > didn't like St. Gregory the Great bringing in that "Eastern" Kyrie (he
        > defended himself by saying the Easterners don's say "Christ have
        > mercy" in the middle). The Easterners thought Westerners were sissies
        > (or effeminate) for not wearing beards. There's a neat book out there
        > I once found on Google Books that talks about this, but I cannot seem
        > to find it again.
        >
        > In Christ,
        > Benjamin Harju
        >
        > On 6/28/10, matt reader <mattyreader@... <mattyreader%40yahoo.com>>
        > wrote:
        > > I can see how it doesn't speak to every type of Lutheran, which goes back
        > to
        > > the fact that the "true Lutherans", as self-defined, are often very small
        > in
        > > number, like the joke of Saint Peter giving a tour in heaven and when he
        > > comes to the Lutheran room he tells the newcomers to be quiet, so as not
        > to
        > > let the Lutheran's know that they are wrong about being the only ones
        > there,
        > > as if the heavenly host plays along to humor them. :)
        > >
        > > Re the second point, that is something that is of little actual
        > theological
        > > value. Specific examples would be useful. I am not sure that any time a
        > new
        > > or questionable teaching/explanation came up in the history of
        > Christianity
        > > that any group said a priori, "well, you know, we could be wrong..." That
        > > goes for East West North South Orthodox Heretic Whatever. That line of
        > > reasoning is the same line used to dismiss the Nicene faith as a mere
        > > political movement foisted upon Christendom by Constantine to squash out
        > the
        > > unorthodox by the proto-orthodox to unite his power behind one
        > theological
        > > strain, a la Bart Ehrman and others. If you adopt it, where do you draw
        > the
        > > line? Besides, sometimes a grudge is there for a reason. But again,
        > > specifics would be useful.
        > >
        > >
        > > --- On Mon, 6/28/10, Oruaseht <oruaseht@... <oruaseht%40yahoo.com>>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > From: Oruaseht <oruaseht@... <oruaseht%40yahoo.com>>
        > > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Is it either/or?
        > > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > Date: Monday, June 28, 2010, 3:52 PM
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > I have sent it off to a couple of my colleagues for reflection. I
        > have
        > > had some response back from it. The chief concerns have been 1) the
        > author
        > > grasps the Orthodox & RC mind but "Lutheran" is somewhat shoddy because
        > she
        > > picked a different group of Lutherans than we are. (The 'real'
        > Confessional
        > > kind, not the liberals or the pentecostal kind or the Finns or the
        > whatever
        > > else kind). And 2) that the Orthodox churches (already before 1054) did
        > > nurture a bit of a political grudge-match with anything
        > Roman/Western/Latin
        > > - as a result, even though they gave lip-service to Western theological
        > > debates, they 'in principle' insisted that their own insights into the
        > > nature of theology & soteriology were somehow more 'pristine' than
        > anything
        > > that the West could offer.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > But all in all this article is just great for conceptualizing the
        > > differences between East and West systematically. I am definitely going
        > to
        > > repost this on my blog for my own records. Thanks again!
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
        > matt reader <mattyreader@...>
        > > wrote:
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> So glad that it helps. I found it very to the point. Be sure to read the
        > >> end notes, too!
        > >
        > >> Matt
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> --- On Mon, 6/28/10, Oruaseht <oruaseht@...> wrote:
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> From: Oruaseht <oruaseht@...>
        > >
        > >> Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Is it either/or?
        > >
        > >> To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
        > >
        > >> Date: Monday, June 28, 2010, 11:10 AM
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> �
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        > >>
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        > >>
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> This article is absolutely fantastic for addressing all of my
        > >> theological conundrums about Orthodoxy & Original Sin/Guilt and Free
        > will.
        > >> Thank you for posting this link!!! I finally had a chance to go through
        > >> it, really going through it and it is excellent. This should really be a
        > >> starting point or essential reading for any Lutheran approaching
        > >> Orthodoxy. Thank you again!!!! I cannot recommend it enough.
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
        > matt reader <mattyreader@>
        > >> wrote:
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > Here's is another useful article on what we've discussed.
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/Justification.htm
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > --- On Wed, 6/23/10, Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@> wrote:
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > From: Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@>
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Is it either/or?
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > Date: Wednesday, June 23, 2010, 3:20 PM
        > >
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        > >> > Pastor Futrell,
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > I like Master Po answers :-) Now, having provided you with a direct
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > answer does not do the work of measuring up the claim of Theosis
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > against the Scriptures, Fathers, Liturgies, and Councils of the
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > Church. It is just a direct answer to your question, not the fullness
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > of why.
        > >
        > >>
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        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > If anyone wants a good, tough read that addresses the issue of
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > participation in the Divine Energies more thoroughly, give "Being As
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > Communion" (by Zizioulos) a try. Dense material, but good.
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > In Christ,
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > Benjamin Harju
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > On 6/23/10, Richard K. Futrell <PastorFutrell@> wrote:
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > > Ben,
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > > Thank you so much. I thought I was only going to get "Master Po"
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > > answers and vagaries at best. I appreciate your clarity and time to
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > > share with me. We have different foci, which is understandable.
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > > --
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >> > > Rich Futrell, Pastor
        > >
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        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


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