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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Blessed Assurance

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  • Jeremy Finck
    You can get all that kind of Orthodox stuff at virtually any Orthodox parish. There s a pretty comprehensive, searchable listing of Churches at
    Message 1 of 8 , May 16, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      You can get all that kind of Orthodox stuff at virtually any Orthodox
      parish. There's a pretty comprehensive, searchable listing of Churches at
      http://www.orthodoxyinamerica.com/
      I don't live in MI, but I have visited an Orthodox Monastery in Rives
      Junction (http://www.dormitionmonastery.com/), just 15min outside of
      Jackson. They have a great bookstore complete with icons, prayer ropes,
      censers, etc. But it's good to give them plenty of notice that you're
      coming, so someone will be available for the bookstore.
      And I have some friends who go to the Russian Orthodox Church in Albion, MI
      : Holy Ascension (http://www.orthodoxchurchalbion.org/).

      Hope that's helpful.

      Jeremy


      On 5/8/07, Eric Perich <eperich@...> wrote:
      >
      > Sal,
      >
      > Its interesting that you brought up the Lutheran monastery in Michigan. I
      > have not been there yet, but will be spending three days there at the end
      > of
      > the month. Do you have any advice for me?
      >
      > Also, for anyone in southeast Michigan, do you know of any local stores
      > where I can get Orthodox books, icons, etc. without having to turn to the
      > internet? It seems that most Christian bookstores are geared primarily
      > toward evangelicals, so there's not usually much of interest to an
      > orthodox
      > Lutheran.
      >
      > Eric
      >
      >
      > On 5/8/07, Salvatore Sberna IV <salsberna@...<salsberna%40gmail.com>>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Wow!! Thanks you guys!! I admit my own ignorance on Luther and
      > > subsequent Lutheran theologians position on "once saved, always
      > > saved." I did some research on it while at a Lutheran monastary in
      > > Michigan, but still found myself wondering. Now that I think back
      > > on it I do remember an analogy of a man clinging to Christ as a
      > > sailor sails a ship into harbor. The ship will be faithful to carry
      > > the sailor into the harbor (death, heaven), but the sailor can jump
      > > ship. But even if he does, the ship is always there waiting for the
      > > drowning man. Hmm...I probably just destroyed that metaphor. I
      > > probably need to talk to my pastor about the Lutheran position.
      > > Although, he seems to be a fan of some of Paul Tillich's thoughts on
      > > God's Grace.
      > > Oddly enough, I believe from personal experience that the notion
      > > that salvation is a one time contract deal can actually be
      > > detrimental to the supposed goal of eternal assurance. I know that
      > > for years I wondered if I was saved. I looked for the fruits of the
      > > Spirit, but one always can find more evil than good in the human
      > > soul. And it doesn't really help to talk to an Evangelical pastor
      > > who tells you either "Of course you are saved, you prayed the
      > > sinners prayer" or "Of course you're saved, if you sincerely prayed
      > > to make Jesus the Lord of your life." Even back then I thought "how
      > > could I know if I was sincere about that prayer when I prayed it at
      > > 10 years old after a particularly powerful sermon about the Wheat
      > > and the Tears?" And then there are those who tell you that "you
      > > can't just pray the sinners pray because you want a get out of Hell
      > > free card." Well, good grief, then regale me with the bliss of
      > > Heaven and not the torments of Hell.
      > > Okay, this is turning into more of a rant, but I'm still trying to
      > > get free from some of the bad doctrine I was taught growing up. The
      > > idea of never being able to loose your salvation (either by
      > > something you do or God does) was a hallmark of my parents' faith.
      > > In fact, when I first started to investigate Orthodoxy I was
      > > visiting my parents and told my mother, who is a self-described
      > > Christian mystic, that I was surprised she was not Orthodox given
      > > some of her informal, theological leanings. She replied that she is
      > > not Orthodox because "they don't believe in Grace." What she meant,
      > > I think, is that Orthodox believe that works will get you to
      > > heaven. I reckon this misconception comes from growing up in an
      > > anti-Catholic environment, bad teachings on Catholics to begin with,
      > > and the questionable doctrine of the economy of grace and merit in
      > > the Catholic Church itself. I informed her that they in no way
      > > believe that, but since they believe that humans have free-will then
      > > a man must necessarily actively participate and engage in the
      > > salvation that is freely offered in Christ. Well, that debate could
      > > go in circles, so I generally leave it alone anymore. And don't
      > > even get her started on the Sacraments (she's even a bit
      > > uncomfortable with the Lutheran teaching on the effective grace of
      > > Baptism. When I told her that I wanted to become an ordained
      > > Lutheran pastor she said "okay, but you don't have to believe in the
      > > whole grace of Baptism thing, right?").
      > > Sorry for the personal history guys. It's finals week at the
      > > University of Houston and I've been cooped up far too long in this
      > > apartment. Guess I just needed someone to talk to and get all of
      > > this off my chest. Thanks.
      > >
      > > Sal
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Rebecca Wilson
      This is my first reply. We lived in Kalamazoo three years ago. There is a Patriarchal parish in Battle Creek. Also, the Greek parish in Kalamazoo has a very
      Message 2 of 8 , May 17, 2007
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        This is my first reply. We lived in Kalamazoo three years ago. There is a Patriarchal parish in Battle Creek. Also, the Greek parish in Kalamazoo has a very evangelical priest and the Divine Liturgy is in English. Fr. Evan is his name. That's about it for Kalamazoo. Dormition Monastery is the best! The nuns are holy, joyful and extremely helpful. The items in their bookstore are very affordable. If you can get to Detroit for a day, MUST go to St. Raphael of Brooklyn parish (Romanian). Fr. Leo is filled with Divine Light. The very best priest or person I have ever encountered (I've been Orthodox since 1980). The Orthodox Christian Education Center which is housed in the men's monastery (Romanian). It is so worth the trip.

        Hope this helps. Christ is in our midst. He is and every shall be!
        Rebecca

        Jeremy Finck <AdonaiUplifts@...> wrote:
        You can get all that kind of Orthodox stuff at virtually any Orthodox
        parish. There's a pretty comprehensive, searchable listing of Churches at
        http://www.orthodoxyinamerica.com/
        I don't live in MI, but I have visited an Orthodox Monastery in Rives
        Junction (http://www.dormitionmonastery.com/), just 15min outside of
        Jackson. They have a great bookstore complete with icons, prayer ropes,
        censers, etc. But it's good to give them plenty of notice that you're
        coming, so someone will be available for the bookstore.
        And I have some friends who go to the Russian Orthodox Church in Albion, MI
        : Holy Ascension (http://www.orthodoxchurchalbion.org/).

        Hope that's helpful.

        Jeremy

        On 5/8/07, Eric Perich <eperich@...> wrote:
        >
        > Sal,
        >
        > Its interesting that you brought up the Lutheran monastery in Michigan. I
        > have not been there yet, but will be spending three days there at the end
        > of
        > the month. Do you have any advice for me?
        >
        > Also, for anyone in southeast Michigan, do you know of any local stores
        > where I can get Orthodox books, icons, etc. without having to turn to the
        > internet? It seems that most Christian bookstores are geared primarily
        > toward evangelicals, so there's not usually much of interest to an
        > orthodox
        > Lutheran.
        >
        > Eric
        >
        >
        > On 5/8/07, Salvatore Sberna IV <salsberna@...<salsberna%40gmail.com>>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Wow!! Thanks you guys!! I admit my own ignorance on Luther and
        > > subsequent Lutheran theologians position on "once saved, always
        > > saved." I did some research on it while at a Lutheran monastary in
        > > Michigan, but still found myself wondering. Now that I think back
        > > on it I do remember an analogy of a man clinging to Christ as a
        > > sailor sails a ship into harbor. The ship will be faithful to carry
        > > the sailor into the harbor (death, heaven), but the sailor can jump
        > > ship. But even if he does, the ship is always there waiting for the
        > > drowning man. Hmm...I probably just destroyed that metaphor. I
        > > probably need to talk to my pastor about the Lutheran position.
        > > Although, he seems to be a fan of some of Paul Tillich's thoughts on
        > > God's Grace.
        > > Oddly enough, I believe from personal experience that the notion
        > > that salvation is a one time contract deal can actually be
        > > detrimental to the supposed goal of eternal assurance. I know that
        > > for years I wondered if I was saved. I looked for the fruits of the
        > > Spirit, but one always can find more evil than good in the human
        > > soul. And it doesn't really help to talk to an Evangelical pastor
        > > who tells you either "Of course you are saved, you prayed the
        > > sinners prayer" or "Of course you're saved, if you sincerely prayed
        > > to make Jesus the Lord of your life." Even back then I thought "how
        > > could I know if I was sincere about that prayer when I prayed it at
        > > 10 years old after a particularly powerful sermon about the Wheat
        > > and the Tears?" And then there are those who tell you that "you
        > > can't just pray the sinners pray because you want a get out of Hell
        > > free card." Well, good grief, then regale me with the bliss of
        > > Heaven and not the torments of Hell.
        > > Okay, this is turning into more of a rant, but I'm still trying to
        > > get free from some of the bad doctrine I was taught growing up. The
        > > idea of never being able to loose your salvation (either by
        > > something you do or God does) was a hallmark of my parents' faith.
        > > In fact, when I first started to investigate Orthodoxy I was
        > > visiting my parents and told my mother, who is a self-described
        > > Christian mystic, that I was surprised she was not Orthodox given
        > > some of her informal, theological leanings. She replied that she is
        > > not Orthodox because "they don't believe in Grace." What she meant,
        > > I think, is that Orthodox believe that works will get you to
        > > heaven. I reckon this misconception comes from growing up in an
        > > anti-Catholic environment, bad teachings on Catholics to begin with,
        > > and the questionable doctrine of the economy of grace and merit in
        > > the Catholic Church itself. I informed her that they in no way
        > > believe that, but since they believe that humans have free-will then
        > > a man must necessarily actively participate and engage in the
        > > salvation that is freely offered in Christ. Well, that debate could
        > > go in circles, so I generally leave it alone anymore. And don't
        > > even get her started on the Sacraments (she's even a bit
        > > uncomfortable with the Lutheran teaching on the effective grace of
        > > Baptism. When I told her that I wanted to become an ordained
        > > Lutheran pastor she said "okay, but you don't have to believe in the
        > > whole grace of Baptism thing, right?").
        > > Sorry for the personal history guys. It's finals week at the
        > > University of Houston and I've been cooped up far too long in this
        > > apartment. Guess I just needed someone to talk to and get all of
        > > this off my chest. Thanks.
        > >
        > > Sal
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






        ---------------------------------
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • tantuslabor
        Hello, Rebecca! Fr. Evangelos is no longer at the parish in Kalamazoo...Here in Grand Rapids we have a number of Orthodox parishes: St. John Chrysostom
        Message 3 of 8 , May 17, 2007
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          Hello, Rebecca!

          Fr. Evangelos is no longer at the parish in Kalamazoo...Here in Grand
          Rapids we have a number of Orthodox parishes: St. John Chrysostom
          (Patriarchal), Holy Annunciation (Romanian), Holy Trinity (Greek), St.
          George, St. Nicholas, and Holy Cross (my parish--all Antiochian). I
          second your words about Dormition monastery.

          The unworthy priest,

          Fr. Gregory Hogg

          --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Wilson
          <emmy88heaven@...> wrote:
          >
          > This is my first reply. We lived in Kalamazoo three years ago.
          There is a Patriarchal parish in Battle Creek. Also, the Greek parish
          in Kalamazoo has a very evangelical priest and the Divine Liturgy is
          in English. Fr. Evan is his name. That's about it for Kalamazoo.
          Dormition Monastery is the best! The nuns are holy, joyful and
          extremely helpful. The items in their bookstore are very affordable.
          If you can get to Detroit for a day, MUST go to St. Raphael of
          Brooklyn parish (Romanian). Fr. Leo is filled with Divine Light. The
          very best priest or person I have ever encountered (I've been Orthodox
          since 1980). The Orthodox Christian Education Center which is housed
          in the men's monastery (Romanian). It is so worth the trip.
          >
          > Hope this helps. Christ is in our midst. He is and every shall be!
          > Rebecca
          >
          > Jeremy Finck <AdonaiUplifts@...> wrote:
          > You can get all that kind of Orthodox stuff at virtually
          any Orthodox
          > parish. There's a pretty comprehensive, searchable listing of
          Churches at
          > http://www.orthodoxyinamerica.com/
          > I don't live in MI, but I have visited an Orthodox Monastery in Rives
          > Junction (http://www.dormitionmonastery.com/), just 15min outside of
          > Jackson. They have a great bookstore complete with icons, prayer ropes,
          > censers, etc. But it's good to give them plenty of notice that you're
          > coming, so someone will be available for the bookstore.
          > And I have some friends who go to the Russian Orthodox Church in
          Albion, MI
          > : Holy Ascension (http://www.orthodoxchurchalbion.org/).
          >
          > Hope that's helpful.
          >
          > Jeremy
          >
          > On 5/8/07, Eric Perich <eperich@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Sal,
          > >
          > > Its interesting that you brought up the Lutheran monastery in
          Michigan. I
          > > have not been there yet, but will be spending three days there at
          the end
          > > of
          > > the month. Do you have any advice for me?
          > >
          > > Also, for anyone in southeast Michigan, do you know of any local
          stores
          > > where I can get Orthodox books, icons, etc. without having to turn
          to the
          > > internet? It seems that most Christian bookstores are geared primarily
          > > toward evangelicals, so there's not usually much of interest to an
          > > orthodox
          > > Lutheran.
          > >
          > > Eric
          > >
          > >
          > > On 5/8/07, Salvatore Sberna IV <salsberna@...<salsberna%40gmail.com>>
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Wow!! Thanks you guys!! I admit my own ignorance on Luther and
          > > > subsequent Lutheran theologians position on "once saved, always
          > > > saved." I did some research on it while at a Lutheran monastary in
          > > > Michigan, but still found myself wondering. Now that I think back
          > > > on it I do remember an analogy of a man clinging to Christ as a
          > > > sailor sails a ship into harbor. The ship will be faithful to carry
          > > > the sailor into the harbor (death, heaven), but the sailor can jump
          > > > ship. But even if he does, the ship is always there waiting for the
          > > > drowning man. Hmm...I probably just destroyed that metaphor. I
          > > > probably need to talk to my pastor about the Lutheran position.
          > > > Although, he seems to be a fan of some of Paul Tillich's thoughts on
          > > > God's Grace.
          > > > Oddly enough, I believe from personal experience that the notion
          > > > that salvation is a one time contract deal can actually be
          > > > detrimental to the supposed goal of eternal assurance. I know that
          > > > for years I wondered if I was saved. I looked for the fruits of the
          > > > Spirit, but one always can find more evil than good in the human
          > > > soul. And it doesn't really help to talk to an Evangelical pastor
          > > > who tells you either "Of course you are saved, you prayed the
          > > > sinners prayer" or "Of course you're saved, if you sincerely prayed
          > > > to make Jesus the Lord of your life." Even back then I thought "how
          > > > could I know if I was sincere about that prayer when I prayed it at
          > > > 10 years old after a particularly powerful sermon about the Wheat
          > > > and the Tears?" And then there are those who tell you that "you
          > > > can't just pray the sinners pray because you want a get out of Hell
          > > > free card." Well, good grief, then regale me with the bliss of
          > > > Heaven and not the torments of Hell.
          > > > Okay, this is turning into more of a rant, but I'm still trying to
          > > > get free from some of the bad doctrine I was taught growing up. The
          > > > idea of never being able to loose your salvation (either by
          > > > something you do or God does) was a hallmark of my parents' faith.
          > > > In fact, when I first started to investigate Orthodoxy I was
          > > > visiting my parents and told my mother, who is a self-described
          > > > Christian mystic, that I was surprised she was not Orthodox given
          > > > some of her informal, theological leanings. She replied that she is
          > > > not Orthodox because "they don't believe in Grace." What she meant,
          > > > I think, is that Orthodox believe that works will get you to
          > > > heaven. I reckon this misconception comes from growing up in an
          > > > anti-Catholic environment, bad teachings on Catholics to begin with,
          > > > and the questionable doctrine of the economy of grace and merit in
          > > > the Catholic Church itself. I informed her that they in no way
          > > > believe that, but since they believe that humans have free-will then
          > > > a man must necessarily actively participate and engage in the
          > > > salvation that is freely offered in Christ. Well, that debate could
          > > > go in circles, so I generally leave it alone anymore. And don't
          > > > even get her started on the Sacraments (she's even a bit
          > > > uncomfortable with the Lutheran teaching on the effective grace of
          > > > Baptism. When I told her that I wanted to become an ordained
          > > > Lutheran pastor she said "okay, but you don't have to believe in the
          > > > whole grace of Baptism thing, right?").
          > > > Sorry for the personal history guys. It's finals week at the
          > > > University of Houston and I've been cooped up far too long in this
          > > > apartment. Guess I just needed someone to talk to and get all of
          > > > this off my chest. Thanks.
          > > >
          > > > Sal
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not
          web links.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
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