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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Higher Critical method in Orthodoxy

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  • Jeremy Finck
    While I believe within the broader perspective of the Orthodox Church, humanly speaking, the topic is open for discussion, I tend to agree with Randall Hay.
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 31, 2010
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      While I believe within the broader perspective of the Orthodox Church,
      humanly speaking, the topic is open for discussion, I tend to agree with
      Randall Hay. Given our current theology of sin and death, I find it very
      difficult to agree with evolutionary theory as it is popularly presented.
      However, I am neither a scientist nor a theologian.

      I am, however, aware that there are a number of biologists, geologists,
      chemists, astrologists, physicists, and etc (i.e. scientists of nearly every
      kind), who, based on their tested scientific research and data, disagree
      with the view of evolution in commonly held the scientific community.
      However, these scientists are not often given opportunity to speak in the
      scientific community at large. They are often given similar type of respect
      as those who, at the recent international summit on global warming, were
      offering different but very scientifically solid data which solidly
      disproved current scientific belief in global warming. In other words, they
      are totally shut out, smeared, and often threatened when they bring
      attention to solid scientific data that could potentially dismantle current
      evolutionary theory, and posit and alternative theory backed by well
      researched data.

      All of this to say that in both the scientific community and even more so in
      Orthodoxy, the discussion on evolution is still open-ended. And I find the
      discussion about it within Orthodoxy to be much more civil, because we have
      no dogmatized view in regards to evolution. We have, however, dogmatized
      that there is one God and Father Who is Creator of the heavens and the
      earth. Regardless of whether or not an Orthodox Christian believes in
      evolutionary theory, every Orthodox Christian is a "creationist" in that
      sense.

      May you all have a blessed Holy Week and Pascha!

      Jeremy




      On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 10:23 PM, randall hay <stortford@...>wrote:
      >
      >>
      >>
      >> I'll give a different perspective: no saint or father of the church has
      >> ever believed in evolution. In Orthodoxy DEATH HAPPENED BECAUSE OF SIN.
      >> THERE WAS NO NEED FOR DEATH BEFORE SIN. WE FOULED UP CREATION BY SIN; GOD
      >> DID NOT CREATE THE WORLD A SLAUGHTERHOUSE.
      >>
      >> The Serbian calendar--as published by St Herman of Alaska
      >> Brotherhood---lists 2010 as the years 7000-something in world history. I
      >> forget exactly which year...but certainly not the year 3-billion-something.
      >>
      >> All the fathers agree completely on the historicity of Genesis, and of all
      >> the OT. Gnostics like Marcion were the ones who doubted it; while the
      >> fathers often employ allegorical hermeneutics, they position themselves
      >> quite opposite the Gnostics.
      >>
      >> Most fathers take the days of Genesis as literal 24-hour days. No father
      >> I've ever read (and I've been reading them for twelve years) ever suggested
      >> the earth was ancient at the time of Adam and Eve.
      >>
      >> The greatest scientist of my lifetime, Francis Crick, didn't believe in
      >> evolution. When he discovered the incredible complexity of DNA he realized
      >> it could never have evolved....hence he came up with the theory of "directed
      >> panspermia," that aliens from outer space seeded genetic material in the
      >> universe. If you google it you'll find plenty of info. Even Richard Dawkins,
      >> the GOD DELUSION guy, suggested it might have been possible.
      >>
      >> ________________________________
      >> From: Oruaseht <oruaseht@... <oruaseht%40yahoo.com>>
      >> To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
      >> Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 12:19:50 PM
      >> Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Higher Critical method in Orthodoxy
      >>
      >>
      >> I'm currently reading Timothy Ware's "The Orthodox Church." One of the
      >> footnotes in the book, p.218, says:
      >>
      >> "The opening chapters of Genesis are of course concerned with certain
      >> religious truths, and are not to be taken as literal history. Fifteen
      >> centuries before modern Biblical criticism, Greek Fathers were already
      >> interpreting the Creation and Paradise stories symbolically rather than
      >> literally."
      >>
      >> This smacks of liberal protestantism, the kind I rebelled against in
      >> Seminary. Next thing you know, Jesus didn't rise from the tomb, because He
      >> was actually a transexual Nazi Eskimo who didn't exist.
      >>
      >> Does Timothy Ware speak for all of Orthodoxy in this footnote?
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jeremy Finck
      In other words, to more directly address the concern: This smacks of liberal protestantism, the kind I rebelled against in Seminary. Next thing you know,
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 31, 2010
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        In other words, to more directly address the concern:

        "This smacks of liberal protestantism, the kind I rebelled against in
        Seminary. Next thing you know, Jesus didn't rise from the tomb, because He
        was actually a transexual Nazi Eskimo who didn't exist. "

        In Orthodoxy, there are certain non-negotiables. The Orthodox Church does
        not negotiate on her belief in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation of Jesus
        Christ, or her doctrines on Salvation that are directly related to these
        dogmas. The foundations that were laid in the first seven Ecumenical
        Councils are not up for debate. The Orthodox Church does not and will not
        waiver on these dogmas. Everyone who becomes Orthodox understands that
        however much you may want to disagree with the dogmas of the Church, She
        will not change. We are here to conform ourselves to Christ. The Church is
        not here to conform Herself to the world, rather, She is the instrument, the
        Body of Christ, through Whom the world will be transformed and sanctified.
        Or to put it another way, we have been using the same liturgy every Sunday
        for over 1500 years. We are not about to waiver on the essentials of the
        Orthodox Christian Faith.

        Jeremy





        On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 8:48 AM, Jeremy Finck <jeremyfinck@...> wrote:

        > While I believe within the broader perspective of the Orthodox Church,
        > humanly speaking, the topic is open for discussion, I tend to agree with
        > Randall Hay. Given our current theology of sin and death, I find it very
        > difficult to agree with evolutionary theory as it is popularly presented.
        > However, I am neither a scientist nor a theologian.
        >
        > I am, however, aware that there are a number of biologists, geologists,
        > chemists, astrologists, physicists, and etc (i.e. scientists of nearly every
        > kind), who, based on their tested scientific research and data, disagree
        > with the view of evolution in commonly held the scientific community.
        > However, these scientists are not often given opportunity to speak in the
        > scientific community at large. They are often given similar type of respect
        > as those who, at the recent international summit on global warming, were
        > offering different but very scientifically solid data which solidly
        > disproved current scientific belief in global warming. In other words, they
        > are totally shut out, smeared, and often threatened when they bring
        > attention to solid scientific data that could potentially dismantle current
        > evolutionary theory, and posit and alternative theory backed by well
        > researched data.
        >
        > All of this to say that in both the scientific community and even more so
        > in Orthodoxy, the discussion on evolution is still open-ended. And I find
        > the discussion about it within Orthodoxy to be much more civil, because we
        > have no dogmatized view in regards to evolution. We have, however,
        > dogmatized that there is one God and Father Who is Creator of the heavens
        > and the earth. Regardless of whether or not an Orthodox Christian believes
        > in evolutionary theory, every Orthodox Christian is a "creationist" in that
        > sense.
        >
        > May you all have a blessed Holy Week and Pascha!
        >
        > Jeremy
        >
        >
        >
        > On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 10:23 PM, randall hay <stortford@...>wrote:
        >
        >>
        >>
        >> I'll give a different perspective: no saint or father of the church has
        >> ever believed in evolution. In Orthodoxy DEATH HAPPENED BECAUSE OF SIN.
        >> THERE WAS NO NEED FOR DEATH BEFORE SIN. WE FOULED UP CREATION BY SIN; GOD
        >> DID NOT CREATE THE WORLD A SLAUGHTERHOUSE.
        >>
        >> The Serbian calendar--as published by St Herman of Alaska
        >> Brotherhood---lists 2010 as the years 7000-something in world history. I
        >> forget exactly which year...but certainly not the year 3-billion-something.
        >>
        >> All the fathers agree completely on the historicity of Genesis, and of all
        >> the OT. Gnostics like Marcion were the ones who doubted it; while the
        >> fathers often employ allegorical hermeneutics, they position themselves
        >> quite opposite the Gnostics.
        >>
        >> Most fathers take the days of Genesis as literal 24-hour days. No father
        >> I've ever read (and I've been reading them for twelve years) ever suggested
        >> the earth was ancient at the time of Adam and Eve.
        >>
        >> The greatest scientist of my lifetime, Francis Crick, didn't believe in
        >> evolution. When he discovered the incredible complexity of DNA he realized
        >> it could never have evolved....hence he came up with the theory of "directed
        >> panspermia," that aliens from outer space seeded genetic material in the
        >> universe. If you google it you'll find plenty of info. Even Richard Dawkins,
        >> the GOD DELUSION guy, suggested it might have been possible.
        >>
        >> ________________________________
        >> From: Oruaseht <oruaseht@... <oruaseht%40yahoo.com>>
        >> To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
        >> Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 12:19:50 PM
        >> Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Higher Critical method in Orthodoxy
        >>
        >>
        >> I'm currently reading Timothy Ware's "The Orthodox Church." One of the
        >> footnotes in the book, p.218, says:
        >>
        >> "The opening chapters of Genesis are of course concerned with certain
        >> religious truths, and are not to be taken as literal history. Fifteen
        >> centuries before modern Biblical criticism, Greek Fathers were already
        >> interpreting the Creation and Paradise stories symbolically rather than
        >> literally."
        >>
        >> This smacks of liberal protestantism, the kind I rebelled against in
        >> Seminary. Next thing you know, Jesus didn't rise from the tomb, because He
        >> was actually a transexual Nazi Eskimo who didn't exist.
        >>
        >> Does Timothy Ware speak for all of Orthodoxy in this footnote?
        >>
        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Oruaseht
        Thanks for these reassuring words!
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 31, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Thanks for these reassuring words!

          --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, randall hay <stortford@...> wrote:
          >
          > I'll give a different perspective: no saint or father of the church has ever believed in evolution. In Orthodoxy DEATH HAPPENED BECAUSE OF SIN. THERE WAS NO NEED FOR DEATH BEFORE SIN. WE FOULED UP CREATION BY SIN; GOD DID NOT CREATE THE WORLD A SLAUGHTERHOUSE.
          >
          > The Serbian calendar--as published by St Herman of Alaska Brotherhood---lists 2010 as the years 7000-something in world history. I forget exactly which year...but certainly not the year 3-billion-something.
          >
          > All the fathers agree completely on the historicity of Genesis, and of all the OT. Gnostics like Marcion were the ones who doubted it; while the fathers often employ allegorical hermeneutics, they position themselves quite opposite the Gnostics.
          >
          > Most fathers take the days of Genesis as literal 24-hour days. No father I've ever read (and I've been reading them for twelve years) ever suggested the earth was ancient at the time of Adam and Eve.
          >
          > The greatest scientist of my lifetime, Francis Crick, didn't believe in evolution. When he discovered the incredible complexity of DNA he realized it could never have evolved....hence he came up with the theory of "directed panspermia," that aliens from outer space seeded genetic material in the universe. If you google it you'll find plenty of info. Even Richard Dawkins, the GOD DELUSION guy, suggested it might have been possible.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: Oruaseht <oruaseht@...>
          > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 12:19:50 PM
          > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Higher Critical method in Orthodoxy
          >
          >
          > I'm currently reading Timothy Ware's "The Orthodox Church." One of the footnotes in the book, p.218, says:
          >
          > "The opening chapters of Genesis are of course concerned with certain religious truths, and are not to be taken as literal history. Fifteen centuries before modern Biblical criticism, Greek Fathers were already interpreting the Creation and Paradise stories symbolically rather than literally."
          >
          > This smacks of liberal protestantism, the kind I rebelled against in Seminary. Next thing you know, Jesus didn't rise from the tomb, because He was actually a transexual Nazi Eskimo who didn't exist.
          >
          > Does Timothy Ware speak for all of Orthodoxy in this footnote?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
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