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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Prayers for the Dead

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  • DonPedroGordo
    Dear Pastor,      Thank you for your article which is of interest.  I plan to read it more carefully as soon as time allows.         Do we not
    Message 1 of 16 , Nov 14, 2009
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      Dear Pastor,
           Thank you for your article which is of interest.  I plan to read it more carefully as soon as time allows.   
           Do we not pray for our dear departed because our love for them does not cease?  Do we not offer our cares for them to God Who loves them also? Yes, Who loves them even more than we know how to love?  Yes, Who even is not restricted by height nor depth, nor death nor any other thing?  Who has already taken death captive, lead out the anciently departed from captivity as in a triumphal parade?
           Denial of the worth of prayer for the departed might well be understood as a denial of the victorious descent of the Lord into the place of the dead and a rejection of the power of His Resurrection. 
           I joyfully pray for the departed faithful as a filial and familial duty. I entrust them to the Lord in hope and anticipation.  This prayer somehow comforts me. It somehow aids them and, I am confident, gladdens our Lord Who loves to receive and attend to our prayers.
       
      [formerly LC-MS pastor, now Orthodox deacon]
      Peter Brandt-Sorheim

       

      --- On Sat, 11/14/09, Richard K. Futrell <PastorFutrell@...> wrote: 





      Although what I will teach is not typical within current-day Lutheranism, I do see this as being fully Lutheran. Please comments as you wish. How much of what is below the same as Eastern Orthodoxy?

      Prayers for the Dead: A Further Examination
      By Pr Rich Futrell
      Nov 15, 2009




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • randall hay
      That s a good point, and as I recall it s found in an akathist for those who have fallen asleep....if Chnst descended to Hades to bring salvation to the
      Message 2 of 16 , Nov 14, 2009
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        That's a good point, and as I recall it's found in an akathist for those who have fallen asleep....if Chnst descended to Hades to bring salvation to the departed, shouldn't we at least pray for them?  We can't imagine gates and bars to be there when He crushed them.

        I've noticed there are generally a lot of broken locks and keys and things scattered around His feet in icons of the Resurrection, as he pulls Adam and Eve out of Hades.  Not just one lock and one key, but a whole bunch.  He really shattered them.

        R.




        ________________________________
        From: DonPedroGordo <donpedrogordo@...>
        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sat, November 14, 2009 6:33:01 AM
        Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Prayers for the Dead

         


        Dear Pastor,
             Thank you for your article which is of interest.  I plan to read it more carefully as soon as time allows.   
             Do we not pray for our dear departed because our love for them does not cease?  Do we not offer our cares for them to God Who loves them also? Yes, Who loves them even more than we know how to love?  Yes, Who even is not restricted by height nor depth, nor death nor any other thing?  Who has already taken death captive, lead out the anciently departed from captivity as in a triumphal parade?
             Denial of the worth of prayer for the departed might well be understood as a denial of the victorious descent of the Lord into the place of the dead and a rejection of the power of His Resurrection. 
             I joyfully pray for the departed faithful as a filial and familial duty. I entrust them to the Lord in hope and anticipation.   This prayer somehow comforts me. It somehow aids them and, I am confident, gladdens our Lord Who loves to receive and attend to our prayers.
         
        [formerly LC-MS pastor, now Orthodox deacon]
        Peter Brandt-Sorheim

         

        --- On Sat, 11/14/09, Richard K. Futrell <PastorFutrell@ centurytel. net> wrote: 

        Although what I will teach is not typical within current-day Lutheranism, I do see this as being fully Lutheran. Please comments as you wish. How much of what is below the same as Eastern Orthodoxy?

        Prayers for the Dead: A Further Examination
        By Pr Rich Futrell
        Nov 15, 2009

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Oruaseht
        The Lutheran reluctance to pray for the dead is still based on fear of the Roman merit system. Romophobia strikes again! The underlying issue for me is a
        Message 3 of 16 , Nov 18, 2009
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          The Lutheran reluctance to pray for the dead is still based on fear of the Roman merit system. "Romophobia" strikes again! The underlying issue for me is a highly-undeveloped ecclesiology and an even further undeveloped understanding and practice of the Communion of the Saints.
        • DonPedroGordo
          Hei!  Tschüß!  ¡Hola!  Oi!  Ciao!  Hi!      Please clarify for me how the Roman MERIT system affects your perspective on prayers for the faithful
          Message 4 of 16 , Nov 18, 2009
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            Hei!  Tschüß!  ¡Hola!  Oi!  Ciao!  Hi! 
                Please clarify for me how the Roman MERIT system affects your perspective on prayers for the faithful departed. 
                For my thought the two issues are completely unrelated...that is, I am not applying any worth, merit, or other form of borrowed righteousness [other than Jesus Christ Himself] to the departed.
                Deacon Fr Finbar
             

            --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Oruaseht <oruaseht@...> wrote:


            From: Oruaseht <oruaseht@...>
            Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Prayers for the Dead
            To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 10:02 AM


             



            The Lutheran reluctance to pray for the dead is still based on fear of the Roman merit system. "Romophobia" strikes again! The underlying issue for me is a highly-undeveloped ecclesiology and an even further undeveloped understanding and practice of the Communion of the Saints.











            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Oruaseht
            The merit scheme drove the whole Reformation. People in the Church of Rome were appealing to the merit of particular saints as to borrow
            Message 5 of 16 , Nov 21, 2009
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              The "merit" scheme drove the whole Reformation. People in the Church of Rome were appealing to the merit of particular saints as to borrow righteousness/spiritual merit for themselves. Or, they were praying to saints to get people out of purgatory, earn brownie points with God, or whatever else non-sense. I don't think this thinking exists within Orthodoxy.


              --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, DonPedroGordo <donpedrogordo@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Hei!  Tschüß!  ¡Hola!  Oi!  Ciao!  Hi! 
              >     Please clarify for me how the Roman MERIT system affects your perspective on prayers for the faithful departed. 
              >     For my thought the two issues are completely unrelated...that is, I am not applying any worth, merit, or other form of borrowed righteousness [other than Jesus Christ Himself] to the departed.
              >     Deacon Fr Finbar
              >  
              >
              > --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Oruaseht <oruaseht@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: Oruaseht <oruaseht@...>
              > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Prayers for the Dead
              > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 10:02 AM
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > The Lutheran reluctance to pray for the dead is still based on fear of the Roman merit system. "Romophobia" strikes again! The underlying issue for me is a highly-undeveloped ecclesiology and an even further undeveloped understanding and practice of the Communion of the Saints.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Oruaseht
              I am also depressed. :( I m still in the process of searching out if Orthodoxy is what it says it is: the fullness of the Church. No identity crisis there! I
              Message 6 of 16 , Nov 21, 2009
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                I am also depressed. :( I'm still in the process of searching out if Orthodoxy is what it says it is: the fullness of the Church. No identity crisis there! I don't like being protestant anymore but I am not ready to make the leap East yet either.

                --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Richard K. Futrell" <PastorFutrell@...> wrote:
                >
                > Our unsureness of who we are as Lutherans, but knowing ever firmly that
                > we aren't Roman Catholic has stripped away much of our identity and has
                > moved us into the Protestant camp (prayers for the dead, even prayers
                > (but not worshipping them) to departed saints, our canon, forms of
                > worship, etc . . .). Sadly, most Lutherans don't even know it! We
                > have become a two-dimensional caricature of who we are supposed to be.
                > All Lutherans who take their Confessions seriously are, thus, in an
                > identity crisis and suffer (at least I do) periodic bouts of depression.
                >
                > --
                > RF, Pastor
                >
                > Where we are to receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and
                > with the Augsburg Confession)--the faith once delivered to the saints,
                > the faith of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His free and full
                > forgiveness of sins, His flesh and blood given and poured out for us,
                > and His gracious gift of life for both body and soul.
                >
                > Quoting Oruaseht :
                >
                > The Lutheran reluctance to pray for the dead is still based on fear
                > of the Roman merit system. "Romophobia" strikes again! The underlying
                > issue for me is a highly-undeveloped ecclesiology and an even further
                > undeveloped understanding and practice of the Communion of the Saints.
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Mary Becker
                It came to me last night in prayer for the Solemnity of Christ the King that in the western rite Requiem Mass the church asks: O Dominie Jesu Christe, Rex
                Message 7 of 16 , Nov 22, 2009
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                  It came to me last night in prayer for the Solemnity of Christ the King that in the western rite Requiem Mass the church asks:

                  O Dominie Jesu Christe, Rex gloriae, libera animas defunctorum de poenis inferni, de ore leonis et de profundo lacu.

                  (My loose tranalation:) O Lord Jesus Christ, King of glory, free the souls of the departed from punishment of fire, from the lion's mouth and the deep lake (of fire). Requiem aeternam, dona eis, Domine. Rest eternal grant them, O Lord. Is there any parallel for these prayers in the Orthodox Church? Can subscribers to the Augsburg Confession pray in this way without being spiritually schizophrenic? Do western rite Orthodox pray this way? Pr. Paul Becker
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Oruaseht" <oruaseht@...>
                  To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 12:19:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                  Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Prayers for the Dead

                   




                  I am also depressed. :( I'm still in the process of searching out if Orthodoxy is what it says it is: the fullness of the Church. No identity crisis there! I don't like being protestant anymore but I am not ready to make the leap East yet either.

                  --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com , "Richard K. Futrell" <PastorFutrell@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Our unsureness of who we are as Lutherans, but knowing ever firmly that
                  > we aren't Roman Catholic has stripped away much of our identity and has
                  > moved us into the Protestant camp (prayers for the dead, even prayers
                  > (but not worshipping them) to departed saints, our canon, forms of
                  > worship, etc . . .). Sadly, most Lutherans don't even know it! We
                  > have become a two-dimensional caricature of who we are supposed to be.
                  > All Lutherans who take their Confessions seriously are, thus, in an
                  > identity crisis and suffer (at least I do) periodic bouts of depression.
                  >
                  > --
                  > RF, Pastor
                  >
                  > Where we are to receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and
                  > with the Augsburg Confession)--the faith once delivered to the saints,
                  > the faith of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His free and full
                  > forgiveness of sins, His flesh and blood given and poured out for us,
                  > and His gracious gift of life for both body and soul.
                  >
                  > Quoting Oruaseht :
                  >
                  > The Lutheran reluctance to pray for the dead is still based on fear
                  > of the Roman merit system. "Romophobia" strikes again! The underlying
                  > issue for me is a highly-undeveloped ecclesiology and an even further
                  > undeveloped understanding and practice of the Communion of the Saints.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Mary Becker
                  here is the full English translation of the prayer in question: Lord Jesus Christ, King of glory, deliver the souls of all the faithful departed from
                  Message 8 of 16 , Nov 22, 2009
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                    here is the full English translation of the prayer in question:
                    Lord Jesus Christ, King of glory,
                    deliver the souls of all the faithful departed
                    from punishments of hell,
                    and from the deep lake.


                    Deliver them from the mouth of the lion,
                    may the abyss not swallow them up,
                    may they not fall into darkness.


                    But may the holy standard-bearer Michael
                    lead them to that holy light
                    which of old Thou didst promise Abraham
                    and his seed.


                    Sacrifices and prayers to Thee,
                    O Lord, we offer with praise.
                    O receive them for the souls of those
                    whom today we commemorate.


                    Make them, O Lord,
                    to pass from death to life,
                    which of old Thou didst promise Abraham
                    and his seed.


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Mary Becker" <beckerpm657@...>
                    To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    Cc: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 5:59:01 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                    Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Prayers for the Dead

                     




                    It came to me last night in prayer for the Solemnity of Christ the King that in the western rite Requiem Mass the church asks:

                    O Dominie Jesu Christe, Rex gloriae, libera animas defunctorum de poenis inferni, de ore leonis et de profundo lacu.

                    (My loose tranalation:) O Lord Jesus Christ, King of glory, free the souls of the departed from punishment of fire, from the lion's mouth and the deep lake (of fire). Requiem aeternam, dona eis, Domine. Rest eternal grant them, O Lord. Is there any parallel for these prayers in the Orthodox Church? Can subscribers to the Augsburg Confession pray in this way without being spiritually schizophrenic? Do western rite Orthodox pray this way? Pr. Paul Becker
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Oruaseht" < oruaseht@... >
                    To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 12:19:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                    Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Prayers for the Dead

                     

                    I am also depressed. :( I'm still in the process of searching out if Orthodoxy is what it says it is: the fullness of the Church. No identity crisis there! I don't like being protestant anymore but I am not ready to make the leap East yet either.

                    --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com , "Richard K. Futrell" <PastorFutrell@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Our unsureness of who we are as Lutherans, but knowing ever firmly that
                    > we aren't Roman Catholic has stripped away much of our identity and has
                    > moved us into the Protestant camp (prayers for the dead, even prayers
                    > (but not worshipping them) to departed saints, our canon, forms of
                    > worship, etc . . .). Sadly, most Lutherans don't even know it! We
                    > have become a two-dimensional caricature of who we are supposed to be.
                    > All Lutherans who take their Confessions seriously are, thus, in an
                    > identity crisis and suffer (at least I do) periodic bouts of depression.
                    >
                    > --
                    > RF, Pastor
                    >
                    > Where we are to receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and
                    > with the Augsburg Confession)--the faith once delivered to the saints,
                    > the faith of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His free and full
                    > forgiveness of sins, His flesh and blood given and poured out for us,
                    > and His gracious gift of life for both body and soul.
                    >
                    > Quoting Oruaseht :
                    >
                    > The Lutheran reluctance to pray for the dead is still based on fear
                    > of the Roman merit system. "Romophobia" strikes again! The underlying
                    > issue for me is a highly-undeveloped ecclesiology and an even further
                    > undeveloped understanding and practice of the Communion of the Saints.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Rosemarie Lieffring
                    Dear Pastor Futrell, I am sorry to know that your suffering over this situation even extends to physical ailments... I can relate as I, too, had physical
                    Message 9 of 16 , Nov 22, 2009
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                      Dear Pastor Futrell,

                      I am sorry to know that your suffering over this situation even extends to
                      physical ailments... I can relate as I, too, had physical issues which
                      manifested as a result of the stress I was experiencing over Lutheranism.

                      We have a group meeting from my parish as part of our Advent
                      preparations...and yesterday Presbytera pointed out something that is quite
                      profound. We can only go as far as our Theology can take us. If the
                      non-controversial traditions in Lutheranism, such as prayer for the dead,
                      have been lost to time, it is possible Lutheran Theology was insufficient to
                      contain them.

                      When you first wrote on the topic I went back to the letters between
                      Augsburg and Constantinople in the 16th century to see what was written to
                      support your case...or not, as the case may be. And to a certain degree
                      what you say is true...there is a discussion regarding merits BUT the
                      reformers did write to Constantinople "For the same reason we do not approve
                      of prayers and alms offered for the dead. If they have truly believed in
                      Christ, we do not doubt that they do live with Christ enjoying the gladness
                      in heaven, since their souls have now been separated from their bodies...As
                      long as we are here, we have good hopes. But as soon as we depart to that
                      place, we can no longer repent nor cleanse ourselves from our iniquities."
                      I think there is a difference between what you propose...that the prayer is
                      merely an affirmation of what we know about Christ and what the Orthodox
                      truly believe about prayer for the dead and alms. The Orthodox are less
                      likely to say that prayers for the dead are ineffective and solely affirm
                      what we already know about Christ. And that can be seen in the Patriarch's
                      initial response to the first engagement by the Tuebingen Lutherans. The
                      Orthodox do not shut the door on what God might do posthumously.

                      If the early reformers had no issue with prayer for the dead in the way you
                      suggest wouldn't they have said something about it as they were explaining
                      their case to the Patriarch? But they didn't...they rejected the
                      Patriarch's comments, didn't try to establish that common link with
                      Constantinople and simply said "no" to prayers for the dead--no need for
                      them, what's done is done.

                      I imagine it is a difficult job to go back and reconstruct what true
                      Lutherans really believed. Even more difficult to gather the water that has
                      traveled under the bridge. But I understand what drives this need. It is a
                      good thing to keep searching for the Truth.

                      If I have in anyway incorrectly presented either the Lutheran or the
                      Orthodox views, I welcome correction. Thank you.-----R


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • DonPedroGordo
                        Tschüß!     Dear Pastor,   You are welcome here as you are in a gentle manner seeking the truth which in Jesus Christ. Fuss and fighting does not
                      Message 10 of 16 , Nov 22, 2009
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                          Tschüß!  
                          Dear Pastor,
                          You are welcome here as you are in a gentle manner seeking the truth which in Jesus Christ. Fuss and fighting does not bring clarity but quiet contemplation of the truth delivered to the saints. Heart and mind must walk together. Or perhaps better, let the nous be instructed by the truth and respond with ever growing faith.
                        Deacon Fr Finbar
                         
                         
                        -- On Sun, 11/22/09, Richard K. Futrell <PastorFutrell@...> wrote:


                        From: Richard K. Futrell <PastorFutrell@...>
                        Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Prayers for the Dead
                        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 10:32 AM


                         





                        Rosemarie,

                        You are a most-gentle saint and have shared with me the truth in the
                        fullness as you know it. Are not all Christians called to do that? I
                        so I rejoice in your words and do not despise them.

                        I am a Lutheran convert pulled out from spiritual death from the
                        deep morass of atheism. I found the truth in Lutheranism as I read the
                        Scriptures. But the more I am shaped by the Scriptures and even the
                        Lutheran Confession, I find that most in Lutheranism not only do not
                        care what our Confessions say, but want to go in another direction
                        (this may not be true, but it is what I 'feel' in the despair of my
                        heart).

                        But our Confession is deficient in this way: it does not contain the
                        fullness of all the teachings of the Church. It never meant to do
                        that. The assumption is that what was not contested would continue in
                        such a way as the Church has always believed. But that isn't the case.
                        That is why I am in such angst and turmoil.

                        We lost much of what our Confessions do teach. We've forgotten and
                        now ridicule what our Confessions simply mention in passing because
                        they were not areas of disagreement with the Lutheran Fathers. In may
                        areas, we don't even know what the Church has always taught and held.
                        Yet, the Catalogue of Testimonies in the Lutheran Confessions show how
                        Lutheranism is not to be something new (by showing that our Christology
                        is the Christology of the Church) but a reflection and affirmation in
                        the Western Tradition (although our Christology is thoroughly Eastern)
                        of what the Chruch was always meant to be.

                        Whether Eastern Orthodoxy contains (or is better than any other
                        Confession in this regard) the fullness of what the Church has
                        believed, taught, and confessed from the beginning I don't know. I'm
                        trying to find out.

                        All the while, I must be a faithful pastor and serve where God has
                        placed me to serve. This is not optional. I will continue to preach
                        and teach the truth no matter where it leads; the faithful cannot do
                        otherwise.

                        Rosemarie, it seems you are a former Lutheran based on your words.
                        Many in the flock where I serve had had their eyes opened in many areas
                        and never want to go back. But the more I strive to reclaim the lost
                        ground of Lutheranism, and express who we were always meant to be, the
                        weirder of an anomoly my parish becomes (unless as Lutheran pastors we
                        are all doing the same thing, which we are not). If one such as you
                        were in my flock, you would be a delight.

                        I now know that EO has justification by faith (not according the
                        Lutheran lexicon of word usage, and so most Lutherans think EO is
                        heterodox) but just states it in such a different way, so different
                        that I don't even think I can explain it myself!. And so I rejoice
                        where God is feeding you now. I even think our dialogue with Jeremias
                        II could have turned out differently if our differences were really
                        understood better. But, alas, that is all in the past.

                        I have not desire to convert to EO--I hope that is OK with you all
                        on the list. But I really do want to try to understand EO. I have
                        also found much wisdom in the Church Fathers. When we ignore them, the
                        ignore the work of the Holy Spirit in and through her Church through
                        the ages. And we are the much poorer for it. So mcuh so that we'veve
                        become a two-dimensional caricature of what Christ intended us to be as
                        His Bride.

                        --
                        Rich Futrell, Pastor

                        Where we are to receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and
                        with the Augsburg Confession)- -the faith once delivered to the saints,
                        the faith of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His free and full
                        forgiveness of sins, His flesh and blood given and poured out for us,
                        and His gracious gift of life for both body and soul.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Mike Bennett
                        A Lutheran who has thought through the implication of the name Theotokos in light of the doctrine of the incarnation has no reason to blanch at the name and
                        Message 11 of 16 , Nov 22, 2009
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                          A Lutheran who has thought through the implication of the name Theotokos in light of the doctrine of the incarnation has no reason to blanch at the name and think "Mary Worshipper."
                           
                          Mike Bennett
                          Lutheran

                          --- On Sun, 11/22/09, Richard K. Futrell <PastorFutrell@...> wrote:


                          From: Richard K. Futrell <PastorFutrell@...>
                          Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Prayers for the Dead
                          To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 7:12 AM


                           





                          Dr. Becker,

                          We must often understand statements as to what is being said and
                          what isn't. In our Protestant-infected mindset, we often see things as
                          they are not meant to be. Take Theotokos, the "Bearer of God." This
                          is more of a statement about Jesus in the womb, that He's God, than
                          about Mary. It's all about Jesus. When we see it as all about Mary,
                          we misunderstand Theotokos. But even Lutherans blanch when they hear
                          the term, thinking you are some "Mary Worshiper."




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • DonPedroGordo
                          Sacrifices and prayers to Thee, O Lord, we offer with praise. O receive them for the souls of those whom today we commemorate.   There is a similarity here
                          Message 12 of 16 , Nov 22, 2009
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                            "Sacrifices and prayers to Thee,
                            O Lord, we offer with praise.
                            O receive them for the souls of those
                            whom today we commemorate."
                             
                            There is a similarity here to the imprecatory psalms.  The speaker has strong emotions in the matter at hand, makes strong requests of the Lord, but ultimately leaves all decisions in the hand of the Lord. It evidences a high level of trust in God. No magic, no good works, just the sacrifices of praise and intercession offered in faith.
                             
                            Abraham trusted God and it was counted to him for righteousness.
                             
                            Deacon Fr Finbar






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • randall hay
                            I ll put my two cents in on some of these topics, for what it s worth...but first, I can t help feeling anguish along with our correspondents who are
                            Message 13 of 16 , Nov 25, 2009
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                              I'll put my two cents in on some of these topics, for what it's worth...but first, I can't help feeling anguish along with our correspondents who are remaining in Lutheranism and suffering the depression, pain, despondency and heartache. 

                              I was there, too. 

                              Back in the mid-'90's I tried changing parishes, validating my points with historical/Scriptural proofs, enlisting support from seminary professors, and even considered starting a society...but it was all useless.  I was completely in the right, I'm sure, from a historical Lutheran perspective; but I didn't have the slightest effect on worship or getting-things-back-to-where-they-should-be.  All I did was mire myself more  and more deeply in a spiritual morass, and get more and more  upset till I was lying in bed at night too angry to sleep. 

                              My last pastor---who was one of the most traditional in the area---told me I should go ahead and become a pastor myself so I could do what I wanted.  But that was the whole problem! 

                              I wish I'd paid more attention to what the NT says about the church, and  its being the "pillar and bulwork" of truth.  I never grasped that it has to have always been here, prevailing against the gates of hades; and that was impossible for me to judge it.  It took me years of anguish and finally converting to suddenly realize that IT judges what I believe rather than vice versa.  

                              Anyhow, regarding prayers for the departed....we pray for all the departed; they're not really dead, and Christ only has one body, so we don't pretend we're separated. We believe in the Resurrection and in one holy catholic and apostolic church; we would feel kind of crazy to treat the departed as members of some other body. 

                              We don't really know for sure where  someone is after he leaves this earth; hopefull with Christ, in which case prayers can somehow add to his ineffable joy.  If he's in the  wrong place, the prayers may help ameliorate his pain.  We really can't presume to know  the judgment of God, so we just pray for the person.

                              As far as the Treasury of Merits, it's absolutely ludicrous in our eyes.  In fact, one of the members of my parish converted  from RC over that very issue.  What precisely are the limits of holiness for those who  have Christ in them?   St Paul tells us we can be filled with all the fulness of God; St Peter that we can partake of His divine nature....where are the hints that we only need a certain amount of sanctity?  The Treasury of Merits only makes sense if you ignore deification....it's never a good idea to do that, since St Paul makes it a measuring-stick of our spiritual life:

                              "Examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith.  Test yourselves.  Do you not know that  Jesus Christ is in you? unless indeed you fail to meet the test."  (II  Cor 13:5)

                              R.



                              ________________________________
                              From: Mary Becker <beckerpm657@...>
                              To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                              Cc: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sun, November 22, 2009 2:59:01 AM
                              Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Prayers for the Dead

                               
                              It came to me last night in prayer for the Solemnity of Christ the King that in the western rite Requiem Mass the church asks:

                              O Dominie Jesu Christe, Rex gloriae, libera animas defunctorum de poenis inferni, de ore leonis et de profundo lacu.

                              (My loose tranalation: ) O Lord Jesus Christ, King of glory, free the souls of the departed from punishment of fire, from the lion's mouth and the deep lake (of fire). Requiem aeternam, dona eis, Domine. Rest eternal grant them, O Lord. Is there any parallel for these prayers in the Orthodox Church? Can subscribers to the Augsburg Confession pray in this way without being spiritually schizophrenic? Do western rite Orthodox pray this way? Pr. Paul Becker
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Oruaseht" <oruaseht@yahoo. com>
                              To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                              Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 12:19:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                              Subject: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Prayers for the Dead

                               

                              I am also depressed. :( I'm still in the process of searching out if Orthodoxy is what it says it is: the fullness of the Church. No identity crisis there! I don't like being protestant anymore but I am not ready to make the leap East yet either.

                              --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com , "Richard K. Futrell" <PastorFutrell@ ...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Our unsureness of who we are as Lutherans, but knowing ever firmly that
                              > we aren't Roman Catholic has stripped away much of our identity and has
                              > moved us into the Protestant camp (prayers for the dead, even prayers
                              > (but not worshipping them) to departed saints, our canon, forms of
                              > worship, etc . . .). Sadly, most Lutherans don't even know it! We
                              > have become a two-dimensional caricature of who we are supposed to be.
                              > All Lutherans who take their Confessions seriously are, thus, in an
                              > identity crisis and suffer (at least I do) periodic bouts of depression.
                              >
                              > --
                              > RF, Pastor
                              >
                              > Where we are to receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and
                              > with the Augsburg Confession)- -the faith once delivered to the saints,
                              > the faith of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His free and full
                              > forgiveness of sins, His flesh and blood given and poured out for us,
                              > and His gracious gift of life for both body and soul.
                              >
                              > Quoting Oruaseht :
                              >
                              > The Lutheran reluctance to pray for the dead is still based on fear
                              > of the Roman merit system. "Romophobia" strikes again! The underlying
                              > issue for me is a highly-undeveloped ecclesiology and an even further
                              > undeveloped understanding and practice of the Communion of the Saints.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • DonPedroGordo
                              Hei!  Tschüß!  ¡Hola!  Oi!  Ciao!  Hi!      The advice that one should become a pastor so as to do as one wishes was part of the problem for me.
                              Message 14 of 16 , Nov 25, 2009
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                                Hei!  Tschüß!  ¡Hola!  Oi!  Ciao!  Hi! 
                                    The advice that one should become a pastor so as to do as one wishes was part of the problem for me. How could I in good conscience [other issues not considered here] teach more traditional understandings in my congregations, knowing full well that a) neither would I be supported by the clergy and organization around me, b) nor could I have any confidence that, should I leave the congregation, the pastor following me would continue what I had begun.  Flip-flop from one perspective to another would lead to confusion, depression, and destruction of faith in those for whom I had a responsibility.  And, as I said to those who were saddened at my departure, I must take care to save my own soul, too!
                                     Deacon Peter Brandt-Sorheim
                                 

                                --- On Wed, 11/25/09, randall hay <stortford@...> wrote:


                                From: randall hay <stortford@...>
                                Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Prayers for the Dead
                                To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 4:13 AM


                                 



                                I'll put my two cents in on some of these topics, for what it's worth...but first, I can't help feeling anguish along with our correspondents who are remaining in Lutheranism and suffering the depression, pain, despondency and heartache. 

                                I was there, too. 

                                Back in the mid-'90's I tried changing parishes, validating my points with historical/Scriptur al proofs, enlisting support from seminary professors, and even considered starting a society...but it was all useless.  I was completely in the right, I'm sure, from a historical Lutheran perspective; but I didn't have the slightest effect on worship or getting-things- back-to-where- they-should- be.  All I did was mire myself more  and more deeply in a spiritual morass, and get more and more  upset till I was lying in bed at night too angry  to sleep. 

                                My last pastor---who was one of the most traditional in the area---told me I should go ahead and become a pastor myself so I could do what I wanted.  But that was the whole problem! 

                                I wish I'd paid more attention to what the NT says about the church, and  its being the "pillar and bulwork" of truth.  I never grasped that it has to have always been here, prevailing against the gates of hades; and that was impossible for me to judge it.  It took me years of anguish and finally converting to suddenly realize that IT judges what I believe rather than vice versa.  

                                Anyhow, regarding prayers for the departed.... we pray for all the departed; they're not really dead, and Christ only has one body, so we don't pretend we're separated. We believe in the Resurrection and in one holy catholic and apostolic church; we would feel kind of crazy to treat the departed as members of some other body. 

                                We don't really know for sure where  someone is after he leaves this earth; hopefull with Christ, in which case prayers can somehow add to his ineffable joy.  If he's in the  wrong place, the prayers may help ameliorate his pain.  We really can't presume to know  the judgment of God, so we just pray for the person.

                                As far as the Treasury of Merits, it's absolutely ludicrous in our eyes.  In fact, one of the members of my parish converted  from RC over that very issue.  What precisely are the limits of holiness for those who  have Christ in them?   St Paul tells us we can be filled with all the fulness of God; St Peter that we can partake of His divine nature....where are the hints that we only need a certain amount of sanctity?  The Treasury of Merits only makes sense if you ignore deification. ...it's never a good idea to do that, since St Paul makes it a measuring-stick of our spiritual life:

                                "Examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith.  Test yourselves.  Do you not know that  Jesus Christ is in you? unless indeed you fail to meet the test."  (II  Cor 13:5)

                                R.

                                ____________ _________ _________ __
                                From: Mary Becker <beckerpm657@ pol.net>
                                To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                Cc: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                Sent: Sun, November 22, 2009 2:59:01 AM
                                Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Prayers for the Dead

                                 
                                It came to me last night in prayer for the Solemnity of Christ the King that in the western rite Requiem Mass the church asks:

                                O Dominie Jesu Christe, Rex gloriae, libera animas defunctorum de poenis inferni, de ore leonis et de profundo lacu.

                                (My loose tranalation: ) O Lord Jesus Christ, King of glory, free the souls of the departed from punishment of fire, from the lion's mouth and the deep lake (of fire). Requiem aeternam, dona eis, Domine. Rest eternal grant them, O Lord. Is there any parallel for these prayers in the Orthodox Church? Can subscribers to the Augsburg Confession pray in this way without being spiritually schizophrenic? Do western rite Orthodox pray this way? Pr. Paul Becker
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Oruaseht" <oruaseht@yahoo. com>
                                To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 12:19:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                Subject: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Prayers for the Dead

                                 

                                I am also depressed. :( I'm still in the process of searching out if Orthodoxy is what it says it is: the fullness of the Church. No identity crisis there! I don't like being protestant anymore but I am not ready to make the leap East yet either.

                                --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com , "Richard K. Futrell" <PastorFutrell@ ...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Our unsureness of who we are as Lutherans, but knowing ever firmly that
                                > we aren't Roman Catholic has stripped away much of our identity and has
                                > moved us into the Protestant camp (prayers for the dead, even prayers
                                > (but not worshipping them) to departed saints, our canon, forms of
                                > worship, etc . . .). Sadly, most Lutherans don't even know it! We
                                > have become a two-dimensional caricature of who we are supposed to be.
                                > All Lutherans who take their Confessions seriously are, thus, in an
                                > identity crisis and suffer (at least I do) periodic bouts of depression.
                                >
                                > --
                                > RF, Pastor
                                >
                                > Where we are to receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and
                                > with the Augsburg Confession)- -the faith once delivered to the saints,
                                > the faith of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His free and full
                                > forgiveness of sins, His flesh and blood given and poured out for us,
                                > and His gracious gift of life for both body and soul.
                                >
                                > Quoting Oruaseht :
                                >
                                > The Lutheran reluctance to pray for the dead is still based on fear
                                > of the Roman merit system. "Romophobia" strikes again! The underlying
                                > issue for me is a highly-undeveloped ecclesiology and an even further
                                > undeveloped understanding and practice of the Communion of the Saints.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • randall hay
                                That s a very good point, Fr Deacon Peter, about watching out for our own souls too!  It s so easy to overextend oneself, either by trying to help others
                                Message 15 of 16 , Nov 25, 2009
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                                  That's a very good point, Fr Deacon Peter, about watching out for our own souls too!  It's so easy to overextend oneself, either by trying to help others past our capacity, or by remaining in an untenable situation hoping it will miraculously change, as I had done. 

                                  But, what can we do for others  if we're in a state of perpetual misery, depression or bitterness?  Instead of being able to help them, we're too likely to infect them with our spiritual disease.  It's a recipe for family fights, divorce, misunderstandings, broken relationships, strife, impaired physical immunity and an early grave.

                                  The  fathers speak of the "Royal Road" (Num 22:22 LXX?), in which we never let ourselves fall into sloth, but don't try anything too difficult, either.  Each of us has his own unique capacity. 


                                  R.


                                  ________________________________
                                  From: DonPedroGordo <donpedrogordo@...>
                                  To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Wed, November 25, 2009 1:48:02 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Prayers for the Dead

                                   


                                  Hei!  Tschüß!  ¡Hola!  Oi!  Ciao!  Hi! 
                                      The advice that one should become a pastor so as to do as one wishes was part of the problem for me. How could I in good conscience [other issues not considered here] teach more traditional understandings in my congregations, knowing full well that a) neither would I be supported by the clergy and organization around me, b) nor could I have any confidence that, should I leave the congregation, the pastor following me would continue what I had begun.  Flip-flop from one perspective to another would lead to confusion, depression, and destruction of faith in those for whom I had a responsibility.  And, as I said to those who were saddened at my departure, I must take care to save my own soul, too!
                                       Deacon Peter Brandt-Sorheim
                                   

                                  --- On Wed, 11/25/09, randall hay <stortford@sbcglobal .net> wrote:

                                  From: randall hay <stortford@sbcglobal .net>
                                  Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Prayers for the Dead
                                  To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                  Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 4:13 AM

                                   

                                  I'll put my two cents in on some of these topics, for what it's worth...but first, I can't help feeling anguish along with our correspondents who are remaining in Lutheranism and suffering the depression, pain, despondency and heartache. 

                                  I was there, too. 

                                  Back in the mid-'90's I tried changing parishes, validating my points with historical/Scriptur al proofs, enlisting support from seminary professors, and even considered starting a society...but it was all useless.  I was completely in the right, I'm sure, from a historical Lutheran perspective; but I didn't have the slightest effect on worship or getting-things- back-to-where- they-should- be.  All I did was mire myself more  and more deeply in a spiritual morass, and get more and more  upset till I was lying in bed at night too angry  to sleep. 

                                  My last pastor---who was one of the most traditional in the area---told me I should go ahead and become a pastor myself so I could do what I wanted.  But that was the whole problem! 

                                  I wish I'd paid more attention to what the NT says about the church, and  its being the "pillar and bulwork" of truth.  I never grasped that it has to have always been here, prevailing against the gates of hades; and that was impossible for me to judge it.  It took me years of anguish and finally converting to suddenly realize that IT judges what I believe rather than vice versa.  

                                  Anyhow, regarding prayers for the departed.... we pray for all the departed; they're not really dead, and Christ only has one body, so we don't pretend we're separated. We believe in the Resurrection and in one holy catholic and apostolic church; we would feel kind of crazy to treat the departed as members of some other body. 

                                  We don't really know for sure where  someone is after he leaves this earth; hopefull with Christ, in which case prayers can somehow add to his ineffable joy.  If he's in the  wrong place, the prayers may help ameliorate his pain.  We really can't presume to know  the judgment of God, so we just pray for the person.

                                  As far as the Treasury of Merits, it's absolutely ludicrous in our eyes.  In fact, one of the members of my parish converted  from RC over that very issue.  What precisely are the limits of holiness for those who  have Christ in them?   St Paul tells us we can be filled with all the fulness of God; St Peter that we can partake of His divine nature....where are the hints that we only need a certain amount of sanctity?  The Treasury of Merits only makes sense if you ignore deification. ...it's never a good idea to do that, since St Paul makes it a measuring-stick of our spiritual life:

                                  "Examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith.  Test yourselves.  Do you not know that  Jesus Christ is in you? unless indeed you fail to meet the test."  (II  Cor 13:5)

                                  R.

                                  ____________ _________ _________ __
                                  From: Mary Becker <beckerpm657@ pol.net>
                                  To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                  Cc: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                  Sent: Sun, November 22, 2009 2:59:01 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Prayers for the Dead

                                   
                                  It came to me last night in prayer for the Solemnity of Christ the King that in the western rite Requiem Mass the church asks:

                                  O Dominie Jesu Christe, Rex gloriae, libera animas defunctorum de poenis inferni, de ore leonis et de profundo lacu.

                                  (My loose tranalation: ) O Lord Jesus Christ, King of glory, free the souls of the departed from punishment of fire, from the lion's mouth and the deep lake (of fire). Requiem aeternam, dona eis, Domine. Rest eternal grant them, O Lord. Is there any parallel for these prayers in the Orthodox Church? Can subscribers to the Augsburg Confession pray in this way without being spiritually schizophrenic? Do western rite Orthodox pray this way? Pr. Paul Becker
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Oruaseht" <oruaseht@yahoo. com>
                                  To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                  Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 12:19:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                  Subject: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Prayers for the Dead

                                   

                                  I am also depressed. :( I'm still in the process of searching out if Orthodoxy is what it says it is: the fullness of the Church. No identity crisis there! I don't like being protestant anymore but I am not ready to make the leap East yet either.

                                  --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com , "Richard K. Futrell" <PastorFutrell@ ...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Our unsureness of who we are as Lutherans, but knowing ever firmly that
                                  > we aren't Roman Catholic has stripped away much of our identity and has
                                  > moved us into the Protestant camp (prayers for the dead, even prayers
                                  > (but not worshipping them) to departed saints, our canon, forms of
                                  > worship, etc . . .). Sadly, most Lutherans don't even know it! We
                                  > have become a two-dimensional caricature of who we are supposed to be.
                                  > All Lutherans who take their Confessions seriously are, thus, in an
                                  > identity crisis and suffer (at least I do) periodic bouts of depression.
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > RF, Pastor
                                  >
                                  > Where we are to receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and
                                  > with the Augsburg Confession)- -the faith once delivered to the saints,
                                  > the faith of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His free and full
                                  > forgiveness of sins, His flesh and blood given and poured out for us,
                                  > and His gracious gift of life for both body and soul.
                                  >
                                  > Quoting Oruaseht :
                                  >
                                  > The Lutheran reluctance to pray for the dead is still based on fear
                                  > of the Roman merit system. "Romophobia" strikes again! The underlying
                                  > issue for me is a highly-undeveloped ecclesiology and an even further
                                  > undeveloped understanding and practice of the Communion of the Saints.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Christopher Orr
                                  Some other resources regarding prayers for the dead and the state of the soul after death:
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Nov 26, 2009
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                                    Some other resources regarding prayers for the dead and the state of the
                                    soul after death:

                                    http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/pannihida_e.htm#n4<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_service_%28Orthodox%29>
                                    http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/pannihida_e.htm<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_service_%28Orthodox%29>
                                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_service_%28Orthodox%29
                                    http://www.oca.org/QAindex-deathfunerals.asp?SID=3
                                    http://logismoitouaaron.blogspot.com/2009/11/passage-of-soul-in-few-patristic.html
                                    http://logismoitouaaron.blogspot.com/2009/11/passage-of-soul-in-modern-theologians.html

                                    Christopher



                                    On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 2:59 AM, randall hay <stortford@...>wrote:

                                    >
                                    >
                                    > That's a very good point, Fr Deacon Peter, about watching out for our own
                                    > souls too! It's so easy to overextend oneself, either by trying to help
                                    > others past our capacity, or by remaining in an untenable situation hoping
                                    > it will miraculously change, as I had done.
                                    >
                                    > But, what can we do for others if we're in a state of perpetual misery,
                                    > depression or bitterness? Instead of being able to help them, we're too
                                    > likely to infect them with our spiritual disease. It's a recipe for family
                                    > fights, divorce, misunderstandings, broken relationships, strife, impaired
                                    > physical immunity and an early grave.
                                    >
                                    > The fathers speak of the "Royal Road" (Num 22:22 LXX?), in which we never
                                    > let ourselves fall into sloth, but don't try anything too difficult,
                                    > either. Each of us has his own unique capacity.
                                    >
                                    > R.
                                    >
                                    > ________________________________
                                    > From: DonPedroGordo <donpedrogordo@... <donpedrogordo%40yahoo.com>>
                                    > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Sent: Wed, November 25, 2009 1:48:02 AM
                                    >
                                    > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Prayers for the Dead
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hei! Tsch��! �Hola! Oi! Ciao! Hi!
                                    > The advice that one should become a pastor so as to do as one wishes
                                    > was part of the problem for me. How could I in good conscience [other issues
                                    > not considered here] teach more traditional understandings in my
                                    > congregations, knowing full well that a) neither would I be supported by the
                                    > clergy and organization around me, b) nor could I have any confidence that,
                                    > should I leave the congregation, the pastor following me would continue what
                                    > I had begun. Flip-flop from one perspective to another would lead to
                                    > confusion, depression, and destruction of faith in those for whom I had a
                                    > responsibility. And, as I said to those who were saddened at my departure,
                                    > I must take care to save my own soul, too!
                                    > Deacon Peter Brandt-Sorheim
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- On Wed, 11/25/09, randall hay <stortford@sbcglobal .net> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > From: randall hay <stortford@sbcglobal .net>
                                    > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Prayers for the Dead
                                    > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                    > Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 4:13 AM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I'll put my two cents in on some of these topics, for what it's worth...but
                                    > first, I can't help feeling anguish along with our correspondents who are
                                    > remaining in Lutheranism and suffering the depression, pain, despondency and
                                    > heartache.
                                    >
                                    > I was there, too.
                                    >
                                    > Back in the mid-'90's I tried changing parishes, validating my points with
                                    > historical/Scriptur al proofs, enlisting support from seminary professors,
                                    > and even considered starting a society...but it was all useless. I was
                                    > completely in the right, I'm sure, from a historical Lutheran perspective;
                                    > but I didn't have the slightest effect on worship or getting-things-
                                    > back-to-where- they-should- be. All I did was mire myself more and more
                                    > deeply in a spiritual morass, and get more and more upset till I was
                                    > lying in bed at night too angry to sleep.
                                    >
                                    > My last pastor---who was one of the most traditional in the area---told me
                                    > I should go ahead and become a pastor myself so I could do what I wanted.
                                    > But that was the whole problem!
                                    >
                                    > I wish I'd paid more attention to what the NT says about the church, and
                                    > its being the "pillar and bulwork" of truth. I never grasped that it has to
                                    > have always been here, prevailing against the gates of hades; and that was
                                    > impossible for me to judge it. It took me years of anguish and finally
                                    > converting to suddenly realize that IT judges what I believe rather than
                                    > vice versa.
                                    >
                                    > Anyhow, regarding prayers for the departed.... we pray for all the
                                    > departed; they're not really dead, and Christ only has one body, so we don't
                                    > pretend we're separated. We believe in the Resurrection and in one holy
                                    > catholic and apostolic church; we would feel kind of crazy to treat the
                                    > departed as members of some other body.
                                    >
                                    > We don't really know for sure where someone is after he leaves this earth;
                                    > hopefull with Christ, in which case prayers can somehow add to his ineffable
                                    > joy. If he's in the wrong place, the prayers may help ameliorate his
                                    > pain. We really can't presume to know the judgment of God, so we just pray
                                    > for the person.
                                    >
                                    > As far as the Treasury of Merits, it's absolutely ludicrous in our eyes.
                                    > In fact, one of the members of my parish converted from RC over that very
                                    > issue. What precisely are the limits of holiness for those who have Christ
                                    > in them? St Paul tells us we can be filled with all the fulness of God; St
                                    > Peter that we can partake of His divine nature....where are the hints that
                                    > we only need a certain amount of sanctity? The Treasury of Merits only
                                    > makes sense if you ignore deification. ...it's never a good idea to do that,
                                    > since St Paul makes it a measuring-stick of our spiritual life:
                                    >
                                    > "Examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do
                                    > you not know that Jesus Christ is in you? unless indeed you fail to meet
                                    > the test." (II Cor 13:5)
                                    >
                                    > R.
                                    >
                                    > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                    > From: Mary Becker <beckerpm657@ pol.net>
                                    > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                    > Cc: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                    > Sent: Sun, November 22, 2009 2:59:01 AM
                                    > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Prayers for the Dead
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > It came to me last night in prayer for the Solemnity of Christ the King
                                    > that in the western rite Requiem Mass the church asks:
                                    >
                                    > O Dominie Jesu Christe, Rex gloriae, libera animas defunctorum de poenis
                                    > inferni, de ore leonis et de profundo lacu.
                                    >
                                    > (My loose tranalation: ) O Lord Jesus Christ, King of glory, free the souls
                                    > of the departed from punishment of fire, from the lion's mouth and the deep
                                    > lake (of fire). Requiem aeternam, dona eis, Domine. Rest eternal grant them,
                                    > O Lord. Is there any parallel for these prayers in the Orthodox Church? Can
                                    > subscribers to the Augsburg Confession pray in this way without being
                                    > spiritually schizophrenic? Do western rite Orthodox pray this way? Pr. Paul
                                    > Becker
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: "Oruaseht" <oruaseht@yahoo. com>
                                    > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                    > Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 12:19:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                    > Subject: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Prayers for the Dead
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I am also depressed. :( I'm still in the process of searching out if
                                    > Orthodoxy is what it says it is: the fullness of the Church. No identity
                                    > crisis there! I don't like being protestant anymore but I am not ready to
                                    > make the leap East yet either.
                                    >
                                    > --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com , "Richard K. Futrell"
                                    > <PastorFutrell@ ...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Our unsureness of who we are as Lutherans, but knowing ever firmly that
                                    > > we aren't Roman Catholic has stripped away much of our identity and has
                                    > > moved us into the Protestant camp (prayers for the dead, even prayers
                                    > > (but not worshipping them) to departed saints, our canon, forms of
                                    > > worship, etc . . .). Sadly, most Lutherans don't even know it! We
                                    > > have become a two-dimensional caricature of who we are supposed to be.
                                    > > All Lutherans who take their Confessions seriously are, thus, in an
                                    > > identity crisis and suffer (at least I do) periodic bouts of depression.
                                    > >
                                    > > --
                                    > > RF, Pastor
                                    > >
                                    > > Where we are to receive and confess the faith of the Church (in and
                                    > > with the Augsburg Confession)- -the faith once delivered to the saints,
                                    > > the faith of Christ Jesus, His Word of the Gospel, His free and full
                                    > > forgiveness of sins, His flesh and blood given and poured out for us,
                                    > > and His gracious gift of life for both body and soul.
                                    > >
                                    > > Quoting Oruaseht :
                                    > >
                                    > > The Lutheran reluctance to pray for the dead is still based on fear
                                    > > of the Roman merit system. "Romophobia" strikes again! The underlying
                                    > > issue for me is a highly-undeveloped ecclesiology and an even further
                                    > > undeveloped understanding and practice of the Communion of the Saints.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    >
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                                    >
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                                    >
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                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


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