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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: "Third Function/Use" of the Law & Orthodoxy

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  • Christopher Orr
    I ve only just started it, but Normal Russell s Fellow Workers with God: Orthodox Thinking on Theosis published as part of the Foundations series from SVS
    Message 1 of 40 , Nov 2, 2009
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      I've only just started it, but Normal Russell's "Fellow Workers with God:
      Orthodox Thinking on Theosis" published as part of the Foundations series
      from SVS Press. It's a popular presentation of theosis. It looks to be a
      good read that may get at some of these issues.

      This is the book to be reviewed by the Unmercenary Readers blog this month,
      so there may be some good reviews of the book. (
      http://unmercenaryreaders.blogspot.com/2009/09/first-unmercenary-readers-symposium.html;
      see also
      http://logismoitouaaron.blogspot.com/2009/10/norman-russell-book-arrives.html
      ).

      Christopher



      On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Oruaseht <oruaseht@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > These are fascinating insights, especially Fr. Damick's words:
      "[Salvation] is a dynamic relationship, not a static status."
      >
      > Lutheranism's Justification by Grace through Faith rests completely on the
      legal "declaration" from God that Jesus has suffered our punishment for us.
      It is the "status" of being declared "not-guilty." It is completely status
      based. I'm either guilty or declared not guilty. It is trendy to talk about
      Salvation/Faith as a "relationship with God" -- I do it every week in my
      sermons! But if we truly understand that Salvation is a relational thing, it
      is only in tact as long as the relationship is. We can & do abandon God and
      hide from Him in our sin all the time. This is why the Lutheran status thing
      is so comforting to consciences that are troubled. There is complete
      assurance of God's favor not dependent on human effort (in deed introducing
      human contribution only adds uncertainty to it). But this is still in the
      Roman category of merit & salvation as "getting into heaven." The Orthodox
      perspective on knowing God and growing in relationship with Christ is such a
      more full understanding of "Life" in Christ.
      >
      > I think the point made earlier that we can and do "know" we have salvation
      *right now* is the key. The dynamic relationship is in flux - not so much
      from God as ourselves. Repentance keeps us in the relationship and keeps it
      "healthy" -- just like any other human relationship we have! There is no
      room for Roman "score cards."
      >
      > I struggle very much with this as I am a dirty rotten sinner who wants to
      keep score!
      >
      > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Rosemarie Lieffring
      <rose.lieffring@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Philip Cary does a nice lecture series with the Teaching Company on
      Martin
      > > Luther. In that series he points out that the notion of epistemological
      > > certainty with regard to salvation was actually "new" with Luther. Prior
      to
      > > Martin Luther knowing with absolute certainty that one will be saved
      never
      > > really was a component of Christianity. Salvation in Christianity was
      our
      > > blessed hope...not a confirmed certainty. And it is our hope, not our
      > > certainty, for several reasons not the least of which include the
      > > possibility of falling away from the faith and rejecting God before our
      life
      > > ends. This is why we pray each liturgy and in other prayers for a
      > > "Christian ending to our life, painless, blameless, peaceful; and a good
      > > defense before the dread Judgement Seat of Christ, let us ask of the
      Lord."
      > > Lutherans also believe one can choose to reject God at some point in
      time,
      > > even after Baptism--so I think that pretty much neutralizes any real
      notion
      > > of absolute certainty. Plus, it is inappropriate for us to judge for
      > > God--it is not our place to say whether we are saved or not.
      > >
      > > Father Andrew Damick, a convert from an Evangelical missionary family
      now
      > > Orthodox priest, put it this way:
      > >
      > > ""Describing this as hope does not lead to a life of anxiety, wondering
      > > whether we can every really "know" whether we are "in" or "out". It is
      much
      > > more like being married--it is always changing and evolving, but built
      on a
      > > certain foundation. There is always the possibility for greater depth
      and
      > > unity but also for dissolution and separation. It is a dynamic
      relationship,
      > > not a static status."
      > >
      > > For a Lutheran this notion of certainty is foundational...which is why
      in
      > > return for the Orthodox explanations we will get "how can I know if I do
      > > enough?"...but honestly, I think that is a bit of a strawman. (I don't
      > > think you, Oruaseht, present this as a strawman...just in general when
      this
      > > argument is brought up.) We are talking about a relationship and not a
      > > score card. Hope...trust...these are the things of Love. We have a God
      who
      > > loves us, in whom we bear His image and likeness, we can trust
      Him.-----R
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • mattyreader
      Hello, This is my first time posting anything, so forgive me if I mess anything up. Re Predestination/Election etc, readers may find useful Ben Witherington s
      Message 40 of 40 , Feb 10, 2010
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        Hello,
        This is my first time posting anything, so forgive me if I mess anything up.

        Re Predestination/Election etc, readers may find useful Ben Witherington's "The Problem with Evangelical Theology", which has a few detailed chapters on predestination/grace/election. He hits Calvinism pretty hard, Lutheranism to a degree, and while he is Protestant, his analysis of those topics seem to be rather Eastern.

        Also, the excellent work by Dr. Farrell, "Free Choice in St. Maximus the Confessor" is, if you can find it, a gem of a read on these topics.

        "Salvation in Christ: A Lutheran Orthodox Dialogue" addresses these issues, too. And you can find it for under a buck online.
        Yours in Him,
        Matt H.



        --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, randall hay <stortford@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi. I've been giving more thought to the role of free will in salvation, which was the biggest hurdle for me coming into Orthodoxy, and seems to be a biggee for many Lutherans. Are we completely depraved, dead in the water till He makes the first move?
        >
        > Yesterday I came across the clearest statement I've found, which seems to tie things up in wonderful patristic depth and clarity, including the concept of synergy. I've read this work--a classic since it was written in the 8th centure--twice before, but never noticed it (duh).
        >
        > FROM EXACT EXPOSITION OF THE ORTHODOX FAITH BY ST. JOHN OF DAMASCUS (+ 750)
        >
        > Bear in mind, too, that virtue is a gift from God implanted in our nature, and that He Himself is the source and cause of all good, and without His co-operation (Gk synergia) and help we cannot will or do any good thing. But we have it in our power either to abide in virtue and follow God, Who calls us into ways of virtue, or to stray from paths of virtue, which is to dwell in wickedness...
        > While then we abide in the natural state we abide in virtue, but when we deviate from the natural state...we come into an unnatural state and dwell in wickedness.
        > (II.30 [NPNF pp. 42-3; PG 44])
        >
        > +
        >
        > Thus, being able to incline in some slight way toward God of one's own free will isn't to claim one's own righteousness apart from God. GOD PUT THAT IN OUR NATURE. WE GET NO CREDIT. HE IS GOOD AND HE MADE US GOOD. Virtue is natural for His human creatures because He made us in His image. Sin is unnatural.
        >
        > Yes, we've bungled things to an extraordinary degree; and as St John points out here, we can't even will a good work, much less complete it, without Him. The ancestral curse afflicts us all, and we choose the unnatural and irrational life of sin throughout our lives.
        >
        > However, since He made us in His image to live a life of virtue, it's imperative that we do our best to do that.
        >
        > The New Testament is written in such a way to reflect this...the grace of God and our path (Law and Gospel, if you will) are constantly intermixed.
        >
        > Hope this helps---
        >
        > Subdeacon R.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > _._,___
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
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