Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: A response to Christopher's brutally honest 'Self-Critique'

Expand Messages
  • krolechka
    ... I think, most orthodox christians have only commited SOME of their lives to Christ our God . The words let us commit all our lives to Christ our God
    Message 1 of 15 , May 8 9:42 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew"
      <drew1095950@...> wrote:
      >
      > I don't mind if one, or two, or even several parishioners show up
      > late. But come on -- 80% That doesn't say good things about the life
      > of that parish.

      I think, most orthodox christians have only commited SOME of their
      "lives to Christ our God". The words "let us commit all our lives to
      Christ our God" stay just words for them... no, for us. Really, have
      WE commited ALL our lives to Him? I really doubt that. Only to some
      extent, some of us to greater extent than others. I think, it's simply
      because our love for Him is far from ideal, very often not really love
      but some resemblence of it. And I think that's where it comes from.

      Coming back to the topic of "80%", I think you'll find that (or
      similar to that) in ANY big parish. Small parishes are different
      because they are formed of zealots (in a good meaning of the word),
      otherwise they'd just vanish, fade away. But big parishes - they are
      good examples of statistics inside the Church: people in It are simply
      at different points of their spiritual life/journey, thus acting
      differently. You'd probably find service attendance close to 100% only
      at Mount Athos and some other strict rules monasteries.

      Alexander
    • Andrew
      One more thing: this was something I struggled with as a Lutheran as well. My VERY orthodox Lutheran parish had all its liturgical and doctrinal ducts in a
      Message 2 of 15 , May 8 9:50 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        One more thing: this was something I struggled with as a Lutheran as
        well. My VERY orthodox Lutheran parish had all its liturgical and
        doctrinal ducts in a row, but it was hard to discern the very Life of
        God in the midst of all. Evangelism wasn't taken very seriously,
        neither was care for the poor and homeless, and it lacked the communal
        life that I was used to growing up in Evangelicalism.

        I'm probably treading on dangerous ground here. It really is not my
        place to judge. God will judge in His infinite wisdom. Come to think
        of it, I wasn't exactly a stellar evangelist, and neither did I spend
        much time with the homeless or give much to the poor. I am no saint,
        that's for sure.

        And yet, what do we make of the 'you will know them by their fruit'
        passage?


        > Christopher,
        >
        > This is obviously what you were stating in your original and
        > subsequent post, but if this really is THE Church, the body of Christ,
        > then why in the world does it not look like it? And further, why does
        > my parents' heterodox ecclesial community look and act like THE Church
        > ought to look and act?
        >
        > Maybe, just maybe, God who chose the foolishness of the cross to shame
        > the wisdom of the wise only continues to foolishly shame the wisdom of
        > the wise by not giving a damn about the supposed 'canonical
        > boundaries' that the Church has set up for Herself?
        >
      • Jeremy Finck
        Christ is Risen! I completely understand your struggle, Andrew. I had the same problems when I was in the Lutheran Church. I was born and raised a Lutheran
        Message 3 of 15 , May 8 10:45 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          Christ is Risen!

          I completely understand your struggle, Andrew. I had the same problems when
          I was in the Lutheran Church. I was born and raised a "Lutheran of
          Lutherans," as it were, in the LC-MS. Through a series of many events and
          study over several years, I discovered that I could no longer remain with
          the Lutheran Church. Initially, I thought what turned me off to the Lutheran
          Church was solely the lack of historical continuity and limited doctrinal
          continuity with the Apostolic, Catholic Church. But it turned out that was
          only part of it.
          It wasn't until about 2 years ago that I realized my biggest beefs with
          Lutheranism were my earthly father and being raised in the same sort of
          Lutheran Church that you just described. VERY orthodox. Appearing only
          superficially interested in "evangelism", feeding the poor, etc, etc. I did
          not see the Life of Christ being lived out in His Body. And what I actually
          saw was just the opposite. Those perceptions hardened over many years and
          produced a fissure of bitterness in the foundation of my soul.
          During my journey to the Orthodox Church, it has been even more humbling to
          discover that many of the "problems" I perceived in my previous parishes
          were not necessarily problems that belonged to those parishes. Rather, the
          problems existed in my own heart and life. Much as you just stated.
          More recently, I've discovered that though evangelism and charity were not
          openly discussed and promoted in those Lutheran parishes, MUCH was going on
          behind the scenes that I knew nothing of. Many of the problems I perceived
          were just that: my own darkened perceptions.
          The story about my relationship with my father is a bit more complicated and
          much longer. But I've been discovering more and more that a great many of
          our problems also stemmed from my own perceptions.

          There are a few Our Life in Christ broadcasts that directly address the very
          questions you have been asking, Andrew. The first is:
          December 7, 2005: Converts Part
          1<http://audio.ancientfaithradio.com/ourlife/converts1_120705.mp3>

          If you go to http://www.ourlifeinchrist.com/archives.htm you'll find the
          other two broadcasts in that series. I'd also highly recommend the
          broadcast: January 23, 2005: Prayers to the Saints - Part 1: What is a
          Saint? <http://audio.ancientfaithradio.com/ourlife/saints1_012305.mp3> I
          guarantee you'll love these broadcasts. These were all very helpful to me
          in working through belonging to parishes that did not appear to openly
          manifest the Life of Christ to the world as His Body "should".


          Grace and peace to you,

          Jeremy (John)





          On 5/8/07, Andrew <drew1095950@...> wrote:
          >
          > One more thing: this was something I struggled with as a Lutheran as
          > well. My VERY orthodox Lutheran parish had all its liturgical and
          > doctrinal ducts in a row, but it was hard to discern the very Life of
          > God in the midst of all. Evangelism wasn't taken very seriously,
          > neither was care for the poor and homeless, and it lacked the communal
          > life that I was used to growing up in Evangelicalism.
          >
          > I'm probably treading on dangerous ground here. It really is not my
          > place to judge. God will judge in His infinite wisdom. Come to think
          > of it, I wasn't exactly a stellar evangelist, and neither did I spend
          > much time with the homeless or give much to the poor. I am no saint,
          > that's for sure.
          >
          > And yet, what do we make of the 'you will know them by their fruit'
          > passage?
          >
          > > Christopher,
          > >
          > > This is obviously what you were stating in your original and
          > > subsequent post, but if this really is THE Church, the body of Christ,
          > > then why in the world does it not look like it? And further, why does
          > > my parents' heterodox ecclesial community look and act like THE Church
          > > ought to look and act?
          > >
          > > Maybe, just maybe, God who chose the foolishness of the cross to shame
          > > the wisdom of the wise only continues to foolishly shame the wisdom of
          > > the wise by not giving a damn about the supposed 'canonical
          > > boundaries' that the Church has set up for Herself?
          > >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Brian Fink
          Dear Drew, Ahhhhh Greek time.... Yes it is down right annoying and believe me here at the Greek sem we should have a class devoted to fighting it. Apparently
          Message 4 of 15 , May 9 3:56 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Drew,
            Ahhhhh Greek time.... Yes it is down right annoying and believe me here at the Greek sem we should have a class devoted to fighting it. Apparently this problem has been around for centuries. I remember hearing about a priest back in the 6-700s (or a long time ago in an empire far far way), whose parishoners would come to church but stand in the narthex to talk. He started doing the services in the narthex.

            Brian

            Andrew <drew1095950@...> wrote:
            Anastasia,

            > Then what?

            I don't mind if one, or two, or even several parishioners show up
            late. But come on -- 80% That doesn't say good things about the life
            of that parish.

            Think of it this way: If you loved your husband (which you undoubtedly
            do), and you had a weekly dinner date with him, would you show up an
            hour late, week in and week out? Of course not. If you did, one would
            rightly question your love for your husband, no?

            I think the analogy fits. If these people loved God, why in the world
            do they neglect the Divine Liturgy as they do?

            Andrew.






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jeremy Finck
            heehee that s awesome :-) ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 15 , May 9 5:11 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              heehee
              that's awesome :-)

              On 5/9/07, Brian Fink <brfinkster@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Drew,
              > Ahhhhh Greek time.... Yes it is down right annoying and believe me here at
              > the Greek sem we should have a class devoted to fighting it. Apparently this
              > problem has been around for centuries. I remember hearing about a priest
              > back in the 6-700s (or a long time ago in an empire far far way), whose
              > parishoners would come to church but stand in the narthex to talk. He
              > started doing the services in the narthex.
              >
              > Brian
              >
              > Andrew <drew1095950@... <drew1095950%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
              > Anastasia,
              >
              > > Then what?
              >
              > I don't mind if one, or two, or even several parishioners show up
              > late. But come on -- 80% That doesn't say good things about the life
              > of that parish.
              >
              > Think of it this way: If you loved your husband (which you undoubtedly
              > do), and you had a weekly dinner date with him, would you show up an
              > hour late, week in and week out? Of course not. If you did, one would
              > rightly question your love for your husband, no?
              >
              > I think the analogy fits. If these people loved God, why in the world
              > do they neglect the Divine Liturgy as they do?
              >
              > Andrew.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Anastasia Theodoridis
              Dear Andrew, First let me say that I VERY, very much sympathize with your problem and certainly have shared it. My husband loves me very, very much and of that
              Message 6 of 15 , May 9 5:43 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Andrew,

                First let me say that I VERY, very much sympathize with your problem and certainly have shared it.

                My husband loves me very, very much and of that there is absolutely no doubt. But he's Greek. Which means that if I were to add up all the time of my life I've ever spent waiting for him to show up, usually 45 minutes late, the total would be about six years of my life (out of the 21 I've known him).

                Many people really do love Christ more than the weakness of the flesh permits them to show. The disciples fell asleep while Christ was undergoing agony. Peter denied Him.

                The danger for you is that at this rate you may never find a parish worthy enough -- anywhere, Orthodox or heterodox, and you may end up totally churchless. It happens.

                The cure, many times, is when God allows us to fall into some blockbuster sin that appalls and mortifies us and makes the sins of everyone else around us suddenly seem utterly inconsequential, almost laughable.

                Or else to discover I already harbor exactly such sins and can't afford to bother about anyone else's.

                All the best! Enjoy the current idyllic situation with which God has seen fit to bless you.

                Anastasia
              • Andrew
                Anastasia, Thank you for your thoughtful reply. You are, of course, correct. Pray for me if I come to mind, even if it s only every now and then. Andrew. ...
                Message 7 of 15 , May 11 2:33 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Anastasia,

                  Thank you for your thoughtful reply. You are, of course, correct.

                  Pray for me if I come to mind, even if it's only every now and then.


                  Andrew.

                  --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Anastasia Theodoridis
                  <anastasiatheo01@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Andrew,
                  >
                  > First let me say that I VERY, very much sympathize with your problem
                  and certainly have shared it.
                  >
                  > My husband loves me very, very much and of that there is absolutely
                  no doubt. But he's Greek. Which means that if I were to add up all
                  the time of my life I've ever spent waiting for him to show up,
                  usually 45 minutes late, the total would be about six years of my life
                  (out of the 21 I've known him).
                  >
                  > Many people really do love Christ more than the weakness of the
                  flesh permits them to show. The disciples fell asleep while Christ
                  was undergoing agony. Peter denied Him.
                  >
                  > The danger for you is that at this rate you may never find a parish
                  worthy enough -- anywhere, Orthodox or heterodox, and you may end up
                  totally churchless. It happens.
                  >
                  > The cure, many times, is when God allows us to fall into some
                  blockbuster sin that appalls and mortifies us and makes the sins of
                  everyone else around us suddenly seem utterly inconsequential, almost
                  laughable.
                  >
                  > Or else to discover I already harbor exactly such sins and can't
                  afford to bother about anyone else's.
                  >
                  > All the best! Enjoy the current idyllic situation with which God
                  has seen fit to bless you.
                  >
                  > Anastasia
                  >
                • Anastasia Theodoridis
                  Oh, I d forgotten I wrote that, Andrew. Please forgive me for having been a little harsh when the whole point was we ought to go easy on one another. Sure,
                  Message 8 of 15 , May 11 5:28 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Oh, I'd forgotten I wrote that, Andrew. Please forgive me for having been a little harsh when the whole point was we ought to go easy on one another. Sure, I'll pray for you and please pray for me, too.

                    love in Christ,
                    Anastasia



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • herrdave2_prime
                    Is there a link to Christopher s brutally honest Self-Critique ?
                    Message 9 of 15 , May 22 7:13 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Is there a link to Christopher's brutally honest 'Self-Critique'?
                    • Eric Perich
                      http://orrologion.blogspot.com/2007/05/self-critique.html ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      Message 10 of 15 , May 22 10:14 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        http://orrologion.blogspot.com/2007/05/self-critique.html

                        On 5/22/07, herrdave2_prime <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                        >
                        > Is there a link to Christopher's brutally honest 'Self-Critique'?
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.