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Best Books to read for a Lutheran pastor to understand Eastern Orthodoxy

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  • Richard
    Greetings: I d like to ask you all a favor. Being former Lutherans, can you provide a list of books I can read to help me understand Eastern Orthodoxy,
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 14, 2009
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      Greetings:

      I'd like to ask you all a favor. Being former Lutherans, can you provide a list of books I can read to help me understand Eastern Orthodoxy, including the biblical approach, language usage, theological emphases, etc?

      I know you all will say the best way is to "come and see." But please help one, like you all previously were, steeped in western theological thinking and speaking to apprehend things Eastern.

      From all your suggestions I'll put together a list by consensus. Who knows? It may even turn out to be a permanent list on this Yahoo site for others.

      Note Bene: I've met and visited Fr Andy Moore, a convert from Lutheranism as an LC-MS pastor, and find his discussion of things to be robustly Lutheran in many ways (according to the Confessions, not Lutheranism as it exists today in North America). In some ways, what he says put flesh and bones on what the Lutheran Confessions mention in passing or assume to be the Christian worldview. But I haven't asked him this question that I've put forward to you all.

      I've no intention to convert (unless I'm convinced EO has a better grasp on the Truth), but I want to truly understand Eastern Orthodoxy and get past the caricatures.

      Thanks. And awaiting you replies. :-)
    • randall hay
      The writings of Fathers have a sort of simple profound clarity that is quite unlike scholarly writing as we know it. Once I discovered this---and in Orthodoxy
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 14, 2009
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        The writings of Fathers have a sort of simple profound clarity that is quite unlike scholarly writing as we know it. Once I discovered this---and in Orthodoxy found the worship and piety that accompany it inseparably and help clear the mind to grasp the stuff---I could never stop reading them.

        In Orthodoxy (unlike RC) the Fathers come up to modern times and by definition are all saints.

        Here are some that particularly touched me:

        EXACT EXPOSITION OF THE ORTHODOX FAITH by St John of Damascus. Discusses many dogmas and teachings of Orthodoxy on various subjects. Available in the NPNF set. Not too long, and has been a classic since the 8th century.

        CATECHETICAL LECTURESby St Cyril of Jerusalem. The earliest extant catechism, also available in NPNF set.

        +

        Lives of saints are part and parcel of our reading....there are a number of NT admonitions to imitate the saints, and this is how we see their lives.

        LIFE OF ST ANTHONY by St Athanasius the Great. How can you beat a book by a saint about a saint? This one changed the course of church history. Available in NPNF.

        OPTINA ELDERS series published by St Herman of Alaska brotherhood. These are hagiographies of well-known Russian saints of the Optina monastery. Economical. The later saints of this monastery survived into the Communist era. (In fact, any books published by this press are inexpensive and highly recommended.)

        ELDER CLEOPA. A Romanian elder of Communist era. There is a book about him, and books he wrote. All recommended.

        FATHER ARSENY. A book on the life of a Soviet-era holy man. It was first published in the underground press. Fascinating look at his holiness, and life in the gulags and the Stalin/Krushchev era.

        ST SILHOUAN THE ATHONITE by Archimandrite Sophrony. A gold mine on this 20th-century monk on Athos, including his writings.

        HIS LIFE IS MINE and WE SHALL SEE HIM AS HE IS by the same author. Sophrony became a key figure in the revival of British Orthodoxy.

        ELDER PAISIOS OF THE HOLY MOUNTAIN and WOUNDED BY LOVE. Elders Paisios and Porphyrios, the subject of these books, are contemporary monastics of Athens. You can't put these down.

        THE GURUS, THE YOUNG MAN AND ELDER PAISIOS by Dionysiois Farasiotis is the most fascinating book I've ever read in my life, bar none. It's about a secular Greek fellow dabbling in New Age stuff; he stumbles acorss Elder Paisios on Athos, and is blown away by the elder's spiritual gifts....but being a man of our generation he can't resist going on a trip to India to see if the Hindu masters have the same holiness. He finds they have lots of spiritual power, but not from the same source....

        +

        For factual introductions the standard classics are:

        THE ORTHODOX CHURCH and THE ORTHODOX WAY by Timothy (Kallistos) Ware. The first is an excellent introduction to history and doctrine; the second to piety.

        HISTORICAL ROAD OF EASTERN ORTHODOXY is a history written by Alexander Schmemann. The best church history book I've ever read, because it ties the teachings and councils and historical movement to holiness and the real life of the Body of Christ.

        ORTHODOX SPIRITUALITY by Bishop of Nafpaktos Hierotheos. This book, and all the others he wrote, for that matter, delve into the image of God, healing and bibilical terms/concepts that have been completely lost in the West.

        FIRST-CREATED MAN by St Symeon the New Theologian. The "New Theologian" lived 1000 years ago. Very very interesting stuff on Orthodox anthropology, piety and dogma; he deals a lot with Christ as Second Adam.

        I could name about 500 more, but I'm sure other people will help.

        In Christ,

        Subdeacon Randy






        ________________________________
        From: Richard <PastorFutrell@...>
        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 9:38:13 PM
        Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Best Books to read for a Lutheran pastor to understand Eastern Orthodoxy


        Greetings:

        I'd like to ask you all a favor. Being former Lutherans, can you provide a list of books I can read to help me understand Eastern Orthodoxy, including the biblical approach, language usage, theological emphases, etc?

        I know you all will say the best way is to "come and see." But please help one, like you all previously were, steeped in western theological thinking and speaking to apprehend things Eastern.

        From all your suggestions I'll put together a list by consensus. Who knows? It may even turn out to be a permanent list on this Yahoo site for others.

        Note Bene: I've met and visited Fr Andy Moore, a convert from Lutheranism as an LC-MS pastor, and find his discussion of things to be robustly Lutheran in many ways (according to the Confessions, not Lutheranism as it exists today in North America). In some ways, what he says put flesh and bones on what the Lutheran Confessions mention in passing or assume to be the Christian worldview. But I haven't asked him this question that I've put forward to you all.

        I've no intention to convert (unless I'm convinced EO has a better grasp on the Truth), but I want to truly understand Eastern Orthodoxy and get past the caricatures.

        Thanks. And awaiting you replies. :-)




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Christopher Orr
        For books discussing the approach to the Bible, etc. I would suggest looking at the footnoted works cited in my The Authority of Scripture in the Orthodox
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 15, 2009
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          For books discussing the approach to the Bible, etc. I would suggest looking
          at the footnoted works cited in my "The Authority of Scripture in the
          Orthodox Church, for Lutherans". I would especially look at Frs. John Behr
          (his "Formation of Christian Theology" series), John Breck (" Scripture in
          Tradition<http://www.svspress.com/product_info.php?cPath=43_6&products_id=252&osCsid=qie28q80d75h8hbks95mopolq4>")
          and Seraphim Rose. You could probably also put Lossky in the same camp, as
          well as many works by Florovsky. I have also heard very good things about
          Louth's "Discerning the Mystery". SVS Press also has some interesting books
          on the topic by Kesich and Barrois; I'd stay away from Tarazi, personally.

          The best way to read Scripture would be through the Fathers. Theophylact of
          Ochrid's commentaries on the Gospels are very good; as is the ACCS series
          from InterVarsity. Archbishop Dmitri (Royster) also has exegetical books on
          Romans and Hebrews. Manley's Bible and the Holy Fathers for
          Orthodox<http://www.svspress.com/product_info.php?cPath=43_6&products_id=11&osCsid=qie28q80d75h8hbks95mopolq4>is
          also good, but it's expensive and the print is not always very
          friendly
          on the eyes. A very interesting way to read the Bible is through the Great
          Canon of St. Andrew of Crete: read the hymns and then check the Scriptural
          citation to see how the Saint 'read' the passage in question.

          Christopher


          On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 9:38 PM, Richard <PastorFutrell@...>wrote:

          >
          >
          > Greetings:
          >
          > I'd like to ask you all a favor. Being former Lutherans, can you provide a
          > list of books I can read to help me understand Eastern Orthodoxy, including
          > the biblical approach, language usage, theological emphases, etc?
          >
          > I know you all will say the best way is to "come and see." But please help
          > one, like you all previously were, steeped in western theological thinking
          > and speaking to apprehend things Eastern.
          >
          > From all your suggestions I'll put together a list by consensus. Who knows?
          > It may even turn out to be a permanent list on this Yahoo site for others.
          >
          > Note Bene: I've met and visited Fr Andy Moore, a convert from Lutheranism
          > as an LC-MS pastor, and find his discussion of things to be robustly
          > Lutheran in many ways (according to the Confessions, not Lutheranism as it
          > exists today in North America). In some ways, what he says put flesh and
          > bones on what the Lutheran Confessions mention in passing or assume to be
          > the Christian worldview. But I haven't asked him this question that I've put
          > forward to you all.
          >
          > I've no intention to convert (unless I'm convinced EO has a better grasp on
          > the Truth), but I want to truly understand Eastern Orthodoxy and get past
          > the caricatures.
          >
          > Thanks. And awaiting you replies. :-)
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Benjamin Harju
          I suggest Meyendorff s Byzantine Theology. It was helpful to me. In Christ, Benjamin Harju
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 15, 2009
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            I suggest Meyendorff's "Byzantine Theology." It was helpful to me.

            In Christ,
            Benjamin Harju
          • Christopher Orr
            For Bible, I would also add Behr s The *Mystery* of *Christ*: Life in Death , which is a condensed version of his Formation of Christian Theology series. I
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 15, 2009
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              For Bible, I would also add Behr's "The *Mystery* of *Christ*: Life in
              Death", which is a condensed version of his "Formation of Christian
              Theology" series.

              I personal favorite on the theology side is Pomazansky's "Orthodox Dogmatic
              Theology" - but don't expect as organized and detailed a dogmatics
              presentation as you would find in a systematic theology like Pieper or
              Mueller; it's more like the systematic theology in St. John Damascene's
              "Exposition".

              Christopher


              On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 1:00 PM, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:

              > For books discussing the approach to the Bible, etc. I would suggest
              > looking at the footnoted works cited in my "The Authority of Scripture in
              > the Orthodox Church, for Lutherans". I would especially look at Frs. John
              > Behr (his "Formation of Christian Theology" series), John Breck (" Scripture
              > in Tradition<http://www.svspress.com/product_info.php?cPath=43_6&products_id=252&osCsid=qie28q80d75h8hbks95mopolq4>")
              > and Seraphim Rose. You could probably also put Lossky in the same camp, as
              > well as many works by Florovsky. I have also heard very good things about
              > Louth's "Discerning the Mystery". SVS Press also has some interesting books
              > on the topic by Kesich and Barrois; I'd stay away from Tarazi, personally.
              >
              > The best way to read Scripture would be through the Fathers. Theophylact
              > of Ochrid's commentaries on the Gospels are very good; as is the ACCS series
              > from InterVarsity. Archbishop Dmitri (Royster) also has exegetical books on
              > Romans and Hebrews. Manley's Bible and the Holy Fathers for Orthodox<http://www.svspress.com/product_info.php?cPath=43_6&products_id=11&osCsid=qie28q80d75h8hbks95mopolq4>is also good, but it's expensive and the print is not always very friendly
              > on the eyes. A very interesting way to read the Bible is through the Great
              > Canon of St. Andrew of Crete: read the hymns and then check the Scriptural
              > citation to see how the Saint 'read' the passage in question.
              >
              > Christopher
              >
              >
              >
              > On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 9:38 PM, Richard <PastorFutrell@...>wrote:
              >
              >>
              >>
              >> Greetings:
              >>
              >> I'd like to ask you all a favor. Being former Lutherans, can you provide a
              >> list of books I can read to help me understand Eastern Orthodoxy, including
              >> the biblical approach, language usage, theological emphases, etc?
              >>
              >> I know you all will say the best way is to "come and see." But please help
              >> one, like you all previously were, steeped in western theological thinking
              >> and speaking to apprehend things Eastern.
              >>
              >> From all your suggestions I'll put together a list by consensus. Who
              >> knows? It may even turn out to be a permanent list on this Yahoo site for
              >> others.
              >>
              >> Note Bene: I've met and visited Fr Andy Moore, a convert from Lutheranism
              >> as an LC-MS pastor, and find his discussion of things to be robustly
              >> Lutheran in many ways (according to the Confessions, not Lutheranism as it
              >> exists today in North America). In some ways, what he says put flesh and
              >> bones on what the Lutheran Confessions mention in passing or assume to be
              >> the Christian worldview. But I haven't asked him this question that I've put
              >> forward to you all.
              >>
              >> I've no intention to convert (unless I'm convinced EO has a better grasp
              >> on the Truth), but I want to truly understand Eastern Orthodoxy and get past
              >> the caricatures.
              >>
              >> Thanks. And awaiting you replies. :-)
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • randall hay
              One caveat with the Intervasity ACCS commentaries is that they include commentary from heretics without distinguishing them from those of Orthodox fathers. I
              Message 6 of 15 , Oct 15, 2009
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                One caveat with the Intervasity ACCS commentaries is that they include commentary from heretics without distinguishing them from those of Orthodox fathers.

                I was looking through a volume of the series came across some comments from one Isho'dad of Merv. I'd never heard of him so I looked him up; he was Nestorian.

                It seemed odd--almost unbelievable--when I discovered that....but there you are. I heard a monastic point that out, too. The series is edited by scholars; perhaps they see it as more scholarly than practical...or perhaps they don't see some of the heretics as heretical.




                ________________________________
                From: Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...>
                To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 1:00:03 PM
                Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Best Books to read for a Lutheran pastor to understand Eastern Orthodoxy


                For books discussing the approach to the Bible, etc. I would suggest looking
                at the footnoted works cited in my "The Authority of Scripture in the
                Orthodox Church, for Lutherans". I would especially look at Frs. John Behr
                (his "Formation of Christian Theology" series), John Breck (" Scripture in
                Tradition<http://www.svspress .com/product_ info.php? cPath=43_ 6&products_ id=252&osCsid= qie28q80d75h8hbk s95mopolq4>")
                and Seraphim Rose. You could probably also put Lossky in the same camp, as
                well as many works by Florovsky. I have also heard very good things about
                Louth's "Discerning the Mystery". SVS Press also has some interesting books
                on the topic by Kesich and Barrois; I'd stay away from Tarazi, personally.

                The best way to read Scripture would be through the Fathers. Theophylact of
                Ochrid's commentaries on the Gospels are very good; as is the ACCS series
                from InterVarsity. Archbishop Dmitri (Royster) also has exegetical books on
                Romans and Hebrews. Manley's Bible and the Holy Fathers for
                Orthodox<http://www.svspress .com/product_ info.php? cPath=43_ 6&products_ id=11&osCsid= qie28q80d75h8hbk s95mopolq4>is
                also good, but it's expensive and the print is not always very
                friendly
                on the eyes. A very interesting way to read the Bible is through the Great
                Canon of St. Andrew of Crete: read the hymns and then check the Scriptural
                citation to see how the Saint 'read' the passage in question.

                Christopher

                On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 9:38 PM, Richard <PastorFutrell@ centurytel. net>wrote:

                >
                >
                > Greetings:
                >
                > I'd like to ask you all a favor. Being former Lutherans, can you provide a
                > list of books I can read to help me understand Eastern Orthodoxy, including
                > the biblical approach, language usage, theological emphases, etc?
                >
                > I know you all will say the best way is to "come and see." But please help
                > one, like you all previously were, steeped in western theological thinking
                > and speaking to apprehend things Eastern.
                >
                > From all your suggestions I'll put together a list by consensus. Who knows?
                > It may even turn out to be a permanent list on this Yahoo site for others.
                >
                > Note Bene: I've met and visited Fr Andy Moore, a convert from Lutheranism
                > as an LC-MS pastor, and find his discussion of things to be robustly
                > Lutheran in many ways (according to the Confessions, not Lutheranism as it
                > exists today in North America). In some ways, what he says put flesh and
                > bones on what the Lutheran Confessions mention in passing or assume to be
                > the Christian worldview. But I haven't asked him this question that I've put
                > forward to you all.
                >
                > I've no intention to convert (unless I'm convinced EO has a better grasp on
                > the Truth), but I want to truly understand Eastern Orthodoxy and get past
                > the caricatures.
                >
                > Thanks. And awaiting you replies. :-)
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • randall hay
                As far as commentaries, I might suggest additionally those of St John Chrysostom....his commentaries on most of the NT are available online (and hard copy) in
                Message 7 of 15 , Oct 15, 2009
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                  As far as commentaries, I might suggest additionally those of St John Chrysostom....his commentaries on most of the NT are available online (and hard copy) in the old NPNF set. They have influenced later Orthodox commentators universally.

                  The disadvantages are that it is an older translation, and not very well laid out...you may have to do some hunting to find stuff on a particular verse.
                  Also, most are sermons preached to his church, and long (people back then had a better attention span). Sometimes he describes 4th century Constantinopolitan life in fascinating detail....for instance, some people were so into chariot racing they could discuss the strengths and weaknesses of individual horses on teams, much as we may with NFL offensive lines...but couldn't name the four Gospels.

                  Theophylact, whom Christopher mentioned, distilled them and added material from other fathers....they are quite well laid out and easy to follow for personal edification or sermons. I use Theophylact and/or Chrysostom on a daily basis.

                  R.




                  ________________________________
                  From: Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...>
                  To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 1:00:03 PM
                  Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Best Books to read for a Lutheran pastor to understand Eastern Orthodoxy


                  For books discussing the approach to the Bible, etc. I would suggest looking
                  at the footnoted works cited in my "The Authority of Scripture in the
                  Orthodox Church, for Lutherans". I would especially look at Frs. John Behr
                  (his "Formation of Christian Theology" series), John Breck (" Scripture in
                  Tradition<http://www.svspress .com/product_ info.php? cPath=43_ 6&products_ id=252&osCsid= qie28q80d75h8hbk s95mopolq4>")
                  and Seraphim Rose. You could probably also put Lossky in the same camp, as
                  well as many works by Florovsky. I have also heard very good things about
                  Louth's "Discerning the Mystery". SVS Press also has some interesting books
                  on the topic by Kesich and Barrois; I'd stay away from Tarazi, personally.

                  The best way to read Scripture would be through the Fathers. Theophylact of
                  Ochrid's commentaries on the Gospels are very good; as is the ACCS series
                  from InterVarsity. Archbishop Dmitri (Royster) also has exegetical books on
                  Romans and Hebrews. Manley's Bible and the Holy Fathers for
                  Orthodox<http://www.svspress .com/product_ info.php? cPath=43_ 6&products_ id=11&osCsid= qie28q80d75h8hbk s95mopolq4>is
                  also good, but it's expensive and the print is not always very
                  friendly
                  on the eyes. A very interesting way to read the Bible is through the Great
                  Canon of St. Andrew of Crete: read the hymns and then check the Scriptural
                  citation to see how the Saint 'read' the passage in question.

                  Christopher

                  On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 9:38 PM, Richard <PastorFutrell@ centurytel. net>wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > Greetings:
                  >
                  > I'd like to ask you all a favor. Being former Lutherans, can you provide a
                  > list of books I can read to help me understand Eastern Orthodoxy, including
                  > the biblical approach, language usage, theological emphases, etc?
                  >
                  > I know you all will say the best way is to "come and see." But please help
                  > one, like you all previously were, steeped in western theological thinking
                  > and speaking to apprehend things Eastern.
                  >
                  > From all your suggestions I'll put together a list by consensus. Who knows?
                  > It may even turn out to be a permanent list on this Yahoo site for others.
                  >
                  > Note Bene: I've met and visited Fr Andy Moore, a convert from Lutheranism
                  > as an LC-MS pastor, and find his discussion of things to be robustly
                  > Lutheran in many ways (according to the Confessions, not Lutheranism as it
                  > exists today in North America). In some ways, what he says put flesh and
                  > bones on what the Lutheran Confessions mention in passing or assume to be
                  > the Christian worldview. But I haven't asked him this question that I've put
                  > forward to you all.
                  >
                  > I've no intention to convert (unless I'm convinced EO has a better grasp on
                  > the Truth), but I want to truly understand Eastern Orthodoxy and get past
                  > the caricatures.
                  >
                  > Thanks. And awaiting you replies. :-)
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Richard
                  Chris, you know, when I first started using the ACCS and reading som of the Fathers, I thought they were all weird and strange. What they wrote often seemed
                  Message 8 of 15 , Oct 16, 2009
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                    Chris,

                    you know, when I first started using the ACCS and reading som of the Fathers, I thought they were all weird and strange. What they wrote often seemed off the wall--and sometimes didn't even make sense! Now they are not so strange. I suppose it shows how much we have changed!
                  • Richard
                    Thanks, Randall. Sorry about my faux paus when in my last post I called you Chris. I was also thinking about Chris Orr s work on the scriptural canon . . .
                    Message 9 of 15 , Oct 16, 2009
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                      Thanks, Randall. Sorry about my faux paus when in my last post I called you Chris. I was also thinking about Chris Orr's work on the scriptural canon . . . and well the rest is history.
                    • Christopher Orr
                      I agree. It was a whole new world that proves how subjective the perspicacity of Scripture argument is. That is, what obvious to one is quite the opposite to
                      Message 10 of 15 , Oct 16, 2009
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                        I agree. It was a whole new world that proves how subjective the
                        perspicacity of Scripture argument is. That is, what obvious to one is
                        quite the opposite to many another.

                        The note regarding heretical Fathers in the ACCS is important. However,
                        remember it isn't the Orthodox Patristic Commentaries on Scripture, but
                        simply Ancient Christian. Those non-orthodox Fathers provide something of
                        the world in which the Church developed. Some, like Pelagius and Origen and
                        Theodore of Mopsuestia, are also not heretical in everything they wrote and
                        were highly regarded as exegetes long after their time (and
                        anathematization, especially in the case of Origen; Mopsuestia often comes
                        to us via Chrysostom, too). Some of the editorial choices are also a little
                        odd: for instance, it is assumed that Rufinus (I think that's who)
                        translated Pelagius; since Rufinus' work was accepted as Orthodox, they
                        simply rename all his presumed translations of Pelagius as Pelagius without
                        taking into account the fact that Rufinus may have tidied up Pelagius for
                        future consumption.

                        Personally, I often find the Protestant apologetical comments of the editors
                        to be the most annoying in the ACCS series.

                        Christopher



                        On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Richard <PastorFutrell@...>wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        > Chris,
                        >
                        > you know, when I first started using the ACCS and reading som of the
                        > Fathers, I thought they were all weird and strange. What they wrote often
                        > seemed off the wall--and sometimes didn't even make sense! Now they are not
                        > so strange. I suppose it shows how much we have changed!
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • randall hay
                        That seems to be a never-ending process...beginning to put on the mind of Christ, as St Paul says. I think the same thing is true in the written prayers and
                        Message 11 of 15 , Oct 16, 2009
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                          That seems to be a never-ending process...beginning to put on the "mind of Christ," as St Paul says.

                          I think the same thing is true in the written prayers and public services...no matter how many times a prayer is repeated, it can always strike the soul more deeply. (One of our priests always said "We don't need to change the words, we need to change our hearts.)

                          R.






                          ________________________________
                          From: Richard <PastorFutrell@...>
                          To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:15:57 AM
                          Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Best Books to read for a Lutheran pastor to understand Eastern Orthodoxy


                          Chris,

                          you know, when I first started using the ACCS and reading som of the Fathers, I thought they were all weird and strange. What they wrote often seemed off the wall--and sometimes didn't even make sense! Now they are not so strange. I suppose it shows how much we have changed!




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Oruaseht
                          Greetings dear Brother - as a Lutheran Pastor in your similar position of investigating the Orthodox Church, here is a list of what I have read & am reading:
                          Message 12 of 15 , Oct 19, 2009
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                            Greetings dear Brother - as a Lutheran Pastor in your similar position of investigating the Orthodox Church, here is a list of what I have read & am reading:

                            Vladimir Lossky http://www.amazon.com/Mystical-Theology-Eastern-Church/dp/0913836311/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255964637&sr=8-1

                            Alexander Schmemann http://www.amazon.com/Life-World-Sacraments-Orthodoxy/dp/0913836087/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255964662&sr=1-1

                            http://www.amazon.com/Eucharist-Sacrament-Kingdom/dp/0881410187/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255964662&sr=1-3

                            http://www.amazon.com/Water-Spirit-Liturgical-Study-Baptism/dp/0913836109/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255964662&sr=1-4

                            http://www.amazon.com/Great-Lent-Journey-Alexander-Schmemann/dp/0913836044/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255964662&sr=1-8

                            Lawrence Farley http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_1_10?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=let+us+attend+a+journey+through+the+orthodox+divine+liturgy&x=0&y=0&sprefix=Let+us+att

                            And, if you would like an intriguing look at Western Theology up to the middle ages regarding Infant Baptism & Confirmation & First Communion as one integrated Rite - as it still is in the East (and WAS in the West), check out Fisher's Book: http://www.amazon.ca/Baptism-Medieval-West-Disintegration-Initiation/dp/1595250018/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1255964871&sr=8-2-fkmr0

                            I can't recommend Schmemann enough. After Lossky, I read him and have been hooked on Orthodoxy ever since as the fullness of the Christian faith.

                            Feel free to email me if you would like to dialogue further about Lutheranism (the confessional kind) and Orthodoxy.


                            --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <PastorFutrell@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Greetings:
                            >
                            > I'd like to ask you all a favor. Being former Lutherans, can you provide a list of books I can read to help me understand Eastern Orthodoxy, including the biblical approach, language usage, theological emphases, etc?
                            >
                            > I know you all will say the best way is to "come and see." But please help one, like you all previously were, steeped in western theological thinking and speaking to apprehend things Eastern.
                            >
                            > From all your suggestions I'll put together a list by consensus. Who knows? It may even turn out to be a permanent list on this Yahoo site for others.
                            >
                            > Note Bene: I've met and visited Fr Andy Moore, a convert from Lutheranism as an LC-MS pastor, and find his discussion of things to be robustly Lutheran in many ways (according to the Confessions, not Lutheranism as it exists today in North America). In some ways, what he says put flesh and bones on what the Lutheran Confessions mention in passing or assume to be the Christian worldview. But I haven't asked him this question that I've put forward to you all.
                            >
                            > I've no intention to convert (unless I'm convinced EO has a better grasp on the Truth), but I want to truly understand Eastern Orthodoxy and get past the caricatures.
                            >
                            > Thanks. And awaiting you replies. :-)
                            >
                          • Christopher Orr
                            I would definitely encourage people to read well beyond Schmemann. I think his pastoral works on Great Lent and the Winter Pascha are excellent; he also did a
                            Message 13 of 15 , Oct 19, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I would definitely encourage people to read well beyond Schmemann. I
                              think his pastoral works on Great Lent and the Winter Pascha are
                              excellent; he also did a great deal to further publication of Orthodox
                              theology and works in English.

                              However, he is definitely a certain 'type' of Orthodox theologian, and
                              that type is not accepted around the world in all its particulars -
                              especially after the fall of Communism and the resurgence of the
                              former Eastern Bloc churches and the reflowering of Mt Athos. He is
                              especially controversial regarding his suggested changes to Orthodox
                              practice relative to what he identifies as past 'abuses', 'Western
                              influences', Byzantine and Turkish influences, etc. Even his academic
                              work has been superseded in more recent years both in and outside of
                              Orthodoxy. His influence on the autocephaly of the OCA and the
                              narrative behind the Russian Mission being the only 'canonical' source
                              for Orthodox unity in North America is also being questioned more and
                              more. That is, he was a man of his times and should be read as such
                              along with a broad, 'conciliar' selection of Orthodox witnesses to the
                              Faith.

                              I should note that my spiritual father had Fr. Alexander as his
                              confessor in Seminary. He is also the grandfather of a priest's wife
                              I was teaching a retreat with yesterday. So, I'm not anti-Schmemann,
                              just pointing out that he is not the undisputed gold standard of
                              Orthodoxy.

                              Christopher

                              On 10/19/09, Oruaseht <oruaseht@...> wrote:
                              > Greetings dear Brother - as a Lutheran Pastor in your similar position of
                              > investigating the Orthodox Church, here is a list of what I have read & am
                              > reading:
                              >
                              > Vladimir Lossky
                              > http://www.amazon.com/Mystical-Theology-Eastern-Church/dp/0913836311/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255964637&sr=8-1
                              >
                              > Alexander Schmemann
                              > http://www.amazon.com/Life-World-Sacraments-Orthodoxy/dp/0913836087/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255964662&sr=1-1
                              >
                              > http://www.amazon.com/Eucharist-Sacrament-Kingdom/dp/0881410187/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255964662&sr=1-3
                              >
                              > http://www.amazon.com/Water-Spirit-Liturgical-Study-Baptism/dp/0913836109/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255964662&sr=1-4
                              >
                              > http://www.amazon.com/Great-Lent-Journey-Alexander-Schmemann/dp/0913836044/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255964662&sr=1-8
                              >
                              > Lawrence Farley
                              > http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_1_10?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=let+us+attend+a+journey+through+the+orthodox+divine+liturgy&x=0&y=0&sprefix=Let+us+att
                              >
                              > And, if you would like an intriguing look at Western Theology up to the
                              > middle ages regarding Infant Baptism & Confirmation & First Communion as one
                              > integrated Rite - as it still is in the East (and WAS in the West), check
                              > out Fisher's Book:
                              > http://www.amazon.ca/Baptism-Medieval-West-Disintegration-Initiation/dp/1595250018/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1255964871&sr=8-2-fkmr0
                              >
                              > I can't recommend Schmemann enough. After Lossky, I read him and have been
                              > hooked on Orthodoxy ever since as the fullness of the Christian faith.
                              >
                              > Feel free to email me if you would like to dialogue further about
                              > Lutheranism (the confessional kind) and Orthodoxy.
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <PastorFutrell@...>
                              > wrote:
                              >>
                              >> Greetings:
                              >>
                              >> I'd like to ask you all a favor. Being former Lutherans, can you provide
                              >> a list of books I can read to help me understand Eastern Orthodoxy,
                              >> including the biblical approach, language usage, theological emphases,
                              >> etc?
                              >>
                              >> I know you all will say the best way is to "come and see." But please
                              >> help one, like you all previously were, steeped in western theological
                              >> thinking and speaking to apprehend things Eastern.
                              >>
                              >> From all your suggestions I'll put together a list by consensus. Who
                              >> knows? It may even turn out to be a permanent list on this Yahoo site for
                              >> others.
                              >>
                              >> Note Bene: I've met and visited Fr Andy Moore, a convert from Lutheranism
                              >> as an LC-MS pastor, and find his discussion of things to be robustly
                              >> Lutheran in many ways (according to the Confessions, not Lutheranism as it
                              >> exists today in North America). In some ways, what he says put flesh and
                              >> bones on what the Lutheran Confessions mention in passing or assume to be
                              >> the Christian worldview. But I haven't asked him this question that I've
                              >> put forward to you all.
                              >>
                              >> I've no intention to convert (unless I'm convinced EO has a better grasp
                              >> on the Truth), but I want to truly understand Eastern Orthodoxy and get
                              >> past the caricatures.
                              >>
                              >> Thanks. And awaiting you replies. :-)
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Oruaseht
                              Christopher makes good points about Schmemann. At least from my experience though, with a Lutheran Pastor education/mindset, Schmemann has spoken to me far
                              Message 14 of 15 , Oct 19, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Christopher makes good points about Schmemann. At least from my experience though, with a Lutheran Pastor education/mindset, Schmemann has spoken to me far more than any other Orthodox Author I have read (thus far). He has answers for much of the questions Lutheran Pastors bring to the table. Despite what Global Orthodoxy may criticize/critique him for, he is an extremely helpful resource for Lutheran Pastors exploring Orthodoxy.

                                --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I would definitely encourage people to read well beyond Schmemann. I
                                > think his pastoral works on Great Lent and the Winter Pascha are
                                > excellent; he also did a great deal to further publication of Orthodox
                                > theology and works in English.
                                >
                                > However, he is definitely a certain 'type' of Orthodox theologian, and
                                > that type is not accepted around the world in all its particulars -
                                > especially after the fall of Communism and the resurgence of the
                                > former Eastern Bloc churches and the reflowering of Mt Athos. He is
                                > especially controversial regarding his suggested changes to Orthodox
                                > practice relative to what he identifies as past 'abuses', 'Western
                                > influences', Byzantine and Turkish influences, etc. Even his academic
                                > work has been superseded in more recent years both in and outside of
                                > Orthodoxy. His influence on the autocephaly of the OCA and the
                                > narrative behind the Russian Mission being the only 'canonical' source
                                > for Orthodox unity in North America is also being questioned more and
                                > more. That is, he was a man of his times and should be read as such
                                > along with a broad, 'conciliar' selection of Orthodox witnesses to the
                                > Faith.
                                >
                                > I should note that my spiritual father had Fr. Alexander as his
                                > confessor in Seminary. He is also the grandfather of a priest's wife
                                > I was teaching a retreat with yesterday. So, I'm not anti-Schmemann,
                                > just pointing out that he is not the undisputed gold standard of
                                > Orthodoxy.
                                >
                                > Christopher
                                >
                                > On 10/19/09, Oruaseht <oruaseht@...> wrote:
                                > > Greetings dear Brother - as a Lutheran Pastor in your similar position of
                                > > investigating the Orthodox Church, here is a list of what I have read & am
                                > > reading:
                                > >
                                > > Vladimir Lossky
                                > > http://www.amazon.com/Mystical-Theology-Eastern-Church/dp/0913836311/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255964637&sr=8-1
                                > >
                                > > Alexander Schmemann
                                > > http://www.amazon.com/Life-World-Sacraments-Orthodoxy/dp/0913836087/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255964662&sr=1-1
                                > >
                                > > http://www.amazon.com/Eucharist-Sacrament-Kingdom/dp/0881410187/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255964662&sr=1-3
                                > >
                                > > http://www.amazon.com/Water-Spirit-Liturgical-Study-Baptism/dp/0913836109/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255964662&sr=1-4
                                > >
                                > > http://www.amazon.com/Great-Lent-Journey-Alexander-Schmemann/dp/0913836044/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255964662&sr=1-8
                                > >
                                > > Lawrence Farley
                                > > http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_1_10?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=let+us+attend+a+journey+through+the+orthodox+divine+liturgy&x=0&y=0&sprefix=Let+us+att
                                > >
                                > > And, if you would like an intriguing look at Western Theology up to the
                                > > middle ages regarding Infant Baptism & Confirmation & First Communion as one
                                > > integrated Rite - as it still is in the East (and WAS in the West), check
                                > > out Fisher's Book:
                                > > http://www.amazon.ca/Baptism-Medieval-West-Disintegration-Initiation/dp/1595250018/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1255964871&sr=8-2-fkmr0
                                > >
                                > > I can't recommend Schmemann enough. After Lossky, I read him and have been
                                > > hooked on Orthodoxy ever since as the fullness of the Christian faith.
                                > >
                                > > Feel free to email me if you would like to dialogue further about
                                > > Lutheranism (the confessional kind) and Orthodoxy.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <PastorFutrell@>
                                > > wrote:
                                > >>
                                > >> Greetings:
                                > >>
                                > >> I'd like to ask you all a favor. Being former Lutherans, can you provide
                                > >> a list of books I can read to help me understand Eastern Orthodoxy,
                                > >> including the biblical approach, language usage, theological emphases,
                                > >> etc?
                                > >>
                                > >> I know you all will say the best way is to "come and see." But please
                                > >> help one, like you all previously were, steeped in western theological
                                > >> thinking and speaking to apprehend things Eastern.
                                > >>
                                > >> From all your suggestions I'll put together a list by consensus. Who
                                > >> knows? It may even turn out to be a permanent list on this Yahoo site for
                                > >> others.
                                > >>
                                > >> Note Bene: I've met and visited Fr Andy Moore, a convert from Lutheranism
                                > >> as an LC-MS pastor, and find his discussion of things to be robustly
                                > >> Lutheran in many ways (according to the Confessions, not Lutheranism as it
                                > >> exists today in North America). In some ways, what he says put flesh and
                                > >> bones on what the Lutheran Confessions mention in passing or assume to be
                                > >> the Christian worldview. But I haven't asked him this question that I've
                                > >> put forward to you all.
                                > >>
                                > >> I've no intention to convert (unless I'm convinced EO has a better grasp
                                > >> on the Truth), but I want to truly understand Eastern Orthodoxy and get
                                > >> past the caricatures.
                                > >>
                                > >> Thanks. And awaiting you replies. :-)
                                > >>
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Oruaseht
                                Christopher makes good points about Schmemann. At least from my experience though, with a Lutheran Pastor education/mindset, Schmemann has spoken to me far
                                Message 15 of 15 , Oct 19, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Christopher makes good points about Schmemann. At least from my experience though, with a Lutheran Pastor education/mindset, Schmemann has spoken to me far more than any other Orthodox Author I have read (thus far). He has answers for much of the questions Lutheran Pastors bring to the table. Despite what Global Orthodoxy may criticize/critique him for, he is an extremely helpful resource for Lutheran Pastors exploring Orthodoxy.

                                  --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I would definitely encourage people to read well beyond Schmemann. I
                                  > think his pastoral works on Great Lent and the Winter Pascha are
                                  > excellent; he also did a great deal to further publication of Orthodox
                                  > theology and works in English.
                                  >
                                  > However, he is definitely a certain 'type' of Orthodox theologian, and
                                  > that type is not accepted around the world in all its particulars -
                                  > especially after the fall of Communism and the resurgence of the
                                  > former Eastern Bloc churches and the reflowering of Mt Athos. He is
                                  > especially controversial regarding his suggested changes to Orthodox
                                  > practice relative to what he identifies as past 'abuses', 'Western
                                  > influences', Byzantine and Turkish influences, etc. Even his academic
                                  > work has been superseded in more recent years both in and outside of
                                  > Orthodoxy. His influence on the autocephaly of the OCA and the
                                  > narrative behind the Russian Mission being the only 'canonical' source
                                  > for Orthodox unity in North America is also being questioned more and
                                  > more. That is, he was a man of his times and should be read as such
                                  > along with a broad, 'conciliar' selection of Orthodox witnesses to the
                                  > Faith.
                                  >
                                  > I should note that my spiritual father had Fr. Alexander as his
                                  > confessor in Seminary. He is also the grandfather of a priest's wife
                                  > I was teaching a retreat with yesterday. So, I'm not anti-Schmemann,
                                  > just pointing out that he is not the undisputed gold standard of
                                  > Orthodoxy.
                                  >
                                  > Christopher
                                  >
                                  > On 10/19/09, Oruaseht <oruaseht@...> wrote:
                                  > > Greetings dear Brother - as a Lutheran Pastor in your similar position of
                                  > > investigating the Orthodox Church, here is a list of what I have read & am
                                  > > reading:
                                  > >
                                  > > Vladimir Lossky
                                  > > http://www.amazon.com/Mystical-Theology-Eastern-Church/dp/0913836311/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255964637&sr=8-1
                                  > >
                                  > > Alexander Schmemann
                                  > > http://www.amazon.com/Life-World-Sacraments-Orthodoxy/dp/0913836087/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255964662&sr=1-1
                                  > >
                                  > > http://www.amazon.com/Eucharist-Sacrament-Kingdom/dp/0881410187/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255964662&sr=1-3
                                  > >
                                  > > http://www.amazon.com/Water-Spirit-Liturgical-Study-Baptism/dp/0913836109/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255964662&sr=1-4
                                  > >
                                  > > http://www.amazon.com/Great-Lent-Journey-Alexander-Schmemann/dp/0913836044/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255964662&sr=1-8
                                  > >
                                  > > Lawrence Farley
                                  > > http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_1_10?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=let+us+attend+a+journey+through+the+orthodox+divine+liturgy&x=0&y=0&sprefix=Let+us+att
                                  > >
                                  > > And, if you would like an intriguing look at Western Theology up to the
                                  > > middle ages regarding Infant Baptism & Confirmation & First Communion as one
                                  > > integrated Rite - as it still is in the East (and WAS in the West), check
                                  > > out Fisher's Book:
                                  > > http://www.amazon.ca/Baptism-Medieval-West-Disintegration-Initiation/dp/1595250018/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1255964871&sr=8-2-fkmr0
                                  > >
                                  > > I can't recommend Schmemann enough. After Lossky, I read him and have been
                                  > > hooked on Orthodoxy ever since as the fullness of the Christian faith.
                                  > >
                                  > > Feel free to email me if you would like to dialogue further about
                                  > > Lutheranism (the confessional kind) and Orthodoxy.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <PastorFutrell@>
                                  > > wrote:
                                  > >>
                                  > >> Greetings:
                                  > >>
                                  > >> I'd like to ask you all a favor. Being former Lutherans, can you provide
                                  > >> a list of books I can read to help me understand Eastern Orthodoxy,
                                  > >> including the biblical approach, language usage, theological emphases,
                                  > >> etc?
                                  > >>
                                  > >> I know you all will say the best way is to "come and see." But please
                                  > >> help one, like you all previously were, steeped in western theological
                                  > >> thinking and speaking to apprehend things Eastern.
                                  > >>
                                  > >> From all your suggestions I'll put together a list by consensus. Who
                                  > >> knows? It may even turn out to be a permanent list on this Yahoo site for
                                  > >> others.
                                  > >>
                                  > >> Note Bene: I've met and visited Fr Andy Moore, a convert from Lutheranism
                                  > >> as an LC-MS pastor, and find his discussion of things to be robustly
                                  > >> Lutheran in many ways (according to the Confessions, not Lutheranism as it
                                  > >> exists today in North America). In some ways, what he says put flesh and
                                  > >> bones on what the Lutheran Confessions mention in passing or assume to be
                                  > >> the Christian worldview. But I haven't asked him this question that I've
                                  > >> put forward to you all.
                                  > >>
                                  > >> I've no intention to convert (unless I'm convinced EO has a better grasp
                                  > >> on the Truth), but I want to truly understand Eastern Orthodoxy and get
                                  > >> past the caricatures.
                                  > >>
                                  > >> Thanks. And awaiting you replies. :-)
                                  > >>
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
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