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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: "Prayer to the Mother of God is the result of a sanctifying-growth-matrix"

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  • AdonaiUplifts@gmail.com
    In their experience, Lutheranism left them floating in a nebulous limbo of not knowing what to do/how they were involved in the sanctified life... Salvation
    Message 1 of 9 , Aug 27, 2009
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      "In their experience, Lutheranism left them floating in a nebulous limbo of not knowing what to do/how they were involved in the sanctified life...
      "Salvation as "receive and believe in a sit and soak atmosphere" turned them away."


      I must say, that was precisely what initially turned me away from Lutheranism and sent me looking elsewhere. I struggled deeply with some habitual sins to the point they were on the cusp of becoming addictions. For years I fervently sought help to turn away from them and repent to no avail. Acknowledging that I was a sinner and trusting that Christ is the one who changes us was as far as Lutheran spirituality took me. Prayer, fasting, and obedience (especially fasting and obedience) as ways to overcome sin or draw near to Christ were at best "dangerous", because I might get the notion that I am healing myself, or I could be tempted in some way to claim victory for myself apart from Christ

      ------Original Message------
      From: oruaseht
      Sender: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
      To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
      ReplyTo: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: "Prayer to the Mother of God is the result of a sanctifying-growth-matrix"
      Sent: Aug 4, 2009 15:48

        At the Parish where I serve, I talked with a family who has since left the Lutheran church. When I inquired as to why they left, they said that they weren't getting the whole picture of Christianity. I inquired further and what they picked up on was the Lutheran focus on Justification to the exclusion of Sanctification. In their experience, Lutheranism left them floating in a nebulous limbo of not knowing what to do/how they were involved in the sanctified life. Unfortunately, they joined an anti-sacramental brethren sect that gave them all the self-aggrandized law they wanted. But the core of the matter (in my view anyways) was that they felt the un-natural separation of justification and sanctification that exists in Lutheranism. Salvation as "receive and believe in a sit and soak atmosphere" turned them away. --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, Rosemarie Lieffring <rose.lieffring@ ...> wrote: > > Christopher, I am glad you posted this there. Ben Harju articulated > something in a way I never could. He wrote: > > "As a puny Orthodox catechumen, though, I would like to point out what I > think is the crux. Lutherans have erred concerning justification, which > disrupts their grasp on Christ's saving work and makes justification seem > disproportionately important. It's like a dislocated shoulder wrenched and > beaten, making the rest of the body think that life is about guarding that > injured member." > > In reflection I have seen this "justification" emphasis as creating a > distorted, incomplete view of the faith in my own history. It makes me > wince just to read the clarity Ben has brought to the subject.---- -R > On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 10:01 AM, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote: > > > > > > > *A Comment by Ben Harju on a Lutheran pastor's blog:* > > > > I see the trouble [of praying certain prayers TO the Theotokos] coming from > > the combination of a number of things. For Lutherans: > > > > 1. The point of Christ's death is to satisfy legal demands. > > > > 2. His righteousness is imputed
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    • AdonaiUplifts@gmail.com
      Oops. Didn t mean to send that. Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile ... From: adonaiuplifts@gmail.com Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 22:56:33 To:
      Message 2 of 9 , Aug 27, 2009
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        Oops.

        Didn't mean to send that.

        Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

        -----Original Message-----
        From: adonaiuplifts@...

        Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 22:56:33
        To: <LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com>; Jeremy Finck<Jeremy.Finck@...>
        Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: "Prayer to the Mother of God is the result of a sanctifying-growth-matrix"


        "In their experience, Lutheranism left them floating in a nebulous limbo of not knowing what to do/how they were involved in the sanctified life...
        "Salvation as "receive and believe in a sit and soak atmosphere" turned them away."


        I must say, that was precisely what initially turned me away from Lutheranism and sent me looking elsewhere. I struggled deeply with some habitual sins to the point they were on the cusp of becoming addictions. For years I fervently sought help to turn away from them and repent to no avail. Acknowledging that I was a sinner and trusting that Christ is the one who changes us was as far as Lutheran spirituality took me. Prayer, fasting, and obedience (especially fasting and obedience) as ways to overcome sin or draw near to Christ were at best "dangerous", because I might get the notion that I am healing myself, or I could be tempted in some way to claim victory for myself apart from Christ

        ------Original Message------
        From: oruaseht
        Sender: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
        ReplyTo: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: "Prayer to the Mother of God is the result of a sanctifying-growth-matrix"
        Sent: Aug 4, 2009 15:48

          At the Parish where I serve, I talked with a family who has since left the Lutheran church. When I inquired as to why they left, they said that they weren't getting the whole picture of Christianity. I inquired further and what they picked up on was the Lutheran focus on Justification to the exclusion of Sanctification. In their experience, Lutheranism left them floating in a nebulous limbo of not knowing what to do/how they were involved in the sanctified life. Unfortunately, they joined an anti-sacramental brethren sect that gave them all the self-aggrandized law they wanted. But the core of the matter (in my view anyways) was that they felt the un-natural separation of justification and sanctification that exists in Lutheranism. Salvation as "receive and believe in a sit and soak atmosphere" turned them away. --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, Rosemarie Lieffring <rose.lieffring@ ...> wrote: > > Christopher, I am glad you posted this there. Ben Harju articulated > something in a way I never could. He wrote: > > "As a puny Orthodox catechumen, though, I would like to point out what I > think is the crux. Lutherans have erred concerning justification, which > disrupts their grasp on Christ's saving work and makes justification seem > disproportionately important. It's like a dislocated shoulder wrenched and > beaten, making the rest of the body think that life is about guarding that > injured member." > > In reflection I have seen this "justification" emphasis as creating a > distorted, incomplete view of the faith in my own history. It makes me > wince just to read the clarity Ben has brought to the subject.---- -R > On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 10:01 AM, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote: > > > > > > > *A Comment by Ben Harju on a Lutheran pastor's blog:* > > > > I see the trouble [of praying certain prayers TO the Theotokos] coming from > > the combination of a number of things. For Lutherans: > > > > 1. The point of Christ's death is to satisfy legal demands. > > > > 2. His righteousness is imputed
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