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Question for former Lutherans

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  • Kimberly Sparling
    I have been wondering for a few weeks now how to go about actually *leaving* the Lutheran church where I have been an active member for the past 5 years. I
    Message 1 of 16 , Aug 15, 2009
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      I have been wondering for a few weeks now how to go about actually *leaving*
      the Lutheran church where I have been an active member for the past 5 years.
      I have been attending an Orthodox church with my family for the past month,
      and would like to continue doing that. My dh and I did not attend the
      Lutheran church together, at the time he still had a paid position in the
      music "ministry" at the Methodist church we previously attended.
      So I feel kind of weird still performing my duties in things like LWML (I
      am a circle leader), picking up and delivering bread for our food pantry,
      etc. I am also council secretary and my term ends this year, so obviously I
      was going to decline if they ask me to continue that responsibility.
      Do I quit "cold turkey" and resign from everything? I have never done this
      before.
      Kim S.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • randall hay
      My opinion, for what s is worth, is that the longer you keep going or having any involvement with your old church, the longer the agony will be prolonged. I
      Message 2 of 16 , Aug 15, 2009
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        My opinion, for what's is worth, is that the longer you keep going or having any involvement with your old church, the longer the agony will be prolonged. I would go cold turkey tomorrow.

        ---Not to say, of course, that you should leave any relationships behind...God puts everyone in our lives for a reason. And Lutheranism did wonderful things for me, in pointing me to the fathers, the liturgy, the true church....and I met many wonderful people, some of whom are among my friends.

        As far as the dh, the faster you deify yourself the faster he'll convert to Orthodoxy. (Just kidding. But you see my point....the best thing you can do for him is be in Christ's body, receiving His holy body and blood, participating in His mystical ecclesiastical life. The more you have Him in you, the more your dh will see Him and be drawn to Him. I have found that being in the Orthodox Church has MUCH more of an effect on loved ones than being in a denomination....there is a sort of heaven-ward pull.)

        R.




        ________________________________
        From: Kimberly Sparling <belleartmom@...>
        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 10:29:59 AM
        Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Question for former Lutherans


        I have been wondering for a few weeks now how to go about actually *leaving*
        the Lutheran church where I have been an active member for the past 5 years.
        I have been attending an Orthodox church with my family for the past month,
        and would like to continue doing that. My dh and I did not attend the
        Lutheran church together, at the time he still had a paid position in the
        music "ministry" at the Methodist church we previously attended.
        So I feel kind of weird still performing my duties in things like LWML (I
        am a circle leader), picking up and delivering bread for our food pantry,
        etc. I am also council secretary and my term ends this year, so obviously I
        was going to decline if they ask me to continue that responsibility.
        Do I quit "cold turkey" and resign from everything? I have never done this
        before.
        Kim S.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • byza7@aol.com
        Kim, I am awaiting the reply to your question from my Orthodox priest who was a former Lutheran pastor. I will respond to you shortly. David N In a message
        Message 3 of 16 , Aug 15, 2009
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          Kim,

          I am awaiting the reply to your question from my Orthodox priest who was a
          former Lutheran pastor.

          I will respond to you shortly.

          David N




          In a message dated 8/15/2009 10:43:46 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
          belleartmom@... writes:




          I have been wondering for a few weeks now how to go about actually
          *leaving*
          the Lutheran church where I have been an active member for the past 5
          years.
          I have been attending an Orthodox church with my family for the past month,
          and would like to continue doing that. My dh and I did not attend the
          Lutheran church together, at the time he still had a paid position in the
          music "ministry" at the Methodist church we previously attended.
          So I feel kind of weird still performing my duties in things like LWML (I
          am a circle leader), picking up and delivering bread for our food pantry,
          etc. I am also council secretary and my term ends this year, so obviously I
          was going to decline if they ask me to continue that responsibility.
          Do I quit "cold turkey" and resign from everything? I have never done this
          before.
          Kim S.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • byza7@aol.com
          Kim, Ok, as I promised here is his exact response to your forum question so I will quote. Kim should, first of all, sit down with her pastor and let him/her
          Message 4 of 16 , Aug 15, 2009
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            Kim,

            Ok, as I promised here is his exact response to your forum question so I
            will quote.

            "Kim should, first of all, sit down with her pastor and let him/her know
            about her interest in Orthodoxy, and her plans to attend an Orthodox Church.
            Separation is always a difficult thing, but made more difficult here by
            the active nature of Kim's membership. Since there is no indication that
            there are any problems with the Lutheran Church where she is attending (if
            there are, she will want to deal with them and heal as many wounds as
            possible during the process of leaving). Kim will want to be sure to leave on
            friendly terms. if anyone has a question about why she is leaving, Kim might
            say that she has found the fullness of the Truth in the Orthodox Church.
            Since Kim intends to continue going to an Orthodox Church, she should stop
            (cold turkey!) any activities at the Lutheran Church, but attend to the
            process of leaving in a personal, rather than public way, as outlined above."

            Welcome Home, Kim
            David Novak


            In a message dated 8/15/2009 10:43:46 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
            belleartmom@... writes:




            I have been wondering for a few weeks now how to go about actually
            *leaving*
            the Lutheran church where I have been an active member for the past 5
            years.
            I have been attending an Orthodox church with my family for the past month,
            and would like to continue doing that. My dh and I did not attend the
            Lutheran church together, at the time he still had a paid position in the
            music "ministry" at the Methodist church we previously attended.
            So I feel kind of weird still performing my duties in things like LWML (I
            am a circle leader), picking up and delivering bread for our food pantry,
            etc. I am also council secretary and my term ends this year, so obviously I
            was going to decline if they ask me to continue that responsibility.
            Do I quit "cold turkey" and resign from everything? I have never done this
            before.
            Kim S.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Rosemarie Lieffring
            I wanted to comment on this since I actually took the opposite advice than what is being given. I, too, was highly active in my Lutheran congregation. I was
            Message 5 of 16 , Aug 15, 2009
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              I wanted to comment on this since I actually took the opposite advice than
              what is being given.

              I, too, was highly active in my Lutheran congregation. I was an LWML
              officer, a co-leader of the prayer group, bible study leader and I
              maintained a very active church website--updates several times per week. I
              decided to fulfill my commitments to the end of their terms...it was a big
              mistake for many reasons. I was unable to be charitable about Lutheranism.
              I no longer belonged there and it was messy because I hadn't left. I did
              meet regularly with my pastor...to discuss Orthodoxy so he had an idea of
              what was eating at me.

              I even maintained the website until my Chrismation (almost a year after I
              had left the congregation) because no one stepped up to take on the role.
              Of course, in the final few months I wasn't doing the best job any longer as
              my heart was not in it.

              In light of having done things the other way and witnessed the negative
              impact it had on my behavior, I, too, think cold turkey would be the best
              way to go if you can possibly do it.

              One thing I will say...my Lutherans friends were not particularly put out by
              my becoming Orthodox. Rather, they were disappointed but expressed support
              that I found what I was looking for. I still meet them for coffee and other
              things every now and then. My friends were just "regular" Lutherans, not
              confessionals. You may also experience something similar if your friends
              are not too hard core.

              I think the person who was hurt the most was my pastor as he blamed himself
              for being unable to convince me that Lutheranism was the truth--in his words
              "for not being the kind of spiritual father I needed". But to his credit he
              left the decision up to me and actually helped my husband give me the space
              and freedom to do what I came to understand that I needed to do.

              May God grant you the wisdom to know the best way to go about this and the
              courage to do it.-----R


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Todd Harman
              Kim   I would have to agree with the cold turkey line of thought. Recognizing that you may be involved in something that might require you to stay
              Message 6 of 16 , Aug 15, 2009
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                Kim
                 
                I would have to agree with the "cold turkey" line of thought. Recognizing that you may be involved in something that might "require" you to stay involved for a little while - until someone else takes over, is trained etc.
                 
                I stayed involved in certain posts - and since my heart was not even close to being "in it" - I'm sure my performance was not quite up to the "Glory of God" standard expressed by St. Paul.

                However - you should certainly explain why you are leaving to those who ask and leave in the spirit of love. Randall said it best - God places everyone in our lives for a reason, and nothing I've come across in Orthodoxy prevents Lutheran-Orthodox friendships.
                 
                I'll certainly pray for you - but again I think you should simply leave, especially if your path is taking you toward the Orthodox Church.
                 
                Shalom
                Todd
                --- On Sat, 8/15/09, Kimberly Sparling <belleartmom@...> wrote:


                From: Kimberly Sparling <belleartmom@...>
                Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Question for former Lutherans
                To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Saturday, August 15, 2009, 10:29 AM


                 



                I have been wondering for a few weeks now how to go about actually *leaving*
                the Lutheran church where I have been an active member for the past 5 years.
                I have been attending an Orthodox church with my family for the past month,
                and would like to continue doing that. My dh and I did not attend the
                Lutheran church together, at the time he still had a paid position in the
                music "ministry" at the Methodist church we previously attended.
                So I feel kind of weird still performing my duties in things like LWML (I
                am a circle leader), picking up and delivering bread for our food pantry,
                etc. I am also council secretary and my term ends this year, so obviously I
                was going to decline if they ask me to continue that responsibility.
                Do I quit "cold turkey" and resign from everything? I have never done this
                before.
                Kim S.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Dave W.
                If I may be so bold as to piggy-back on Kim s question, with my own related one. I have just given my Lutheran Church notice that my wife and I will not be
                Message 7 of 16 , Aug 16, 2009
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                  If I may be so bold as to piggy-back on Kim's question, with my own related one. I have just given my Lutheran Church notice that my wife and I will not be coming back, and that we're leaving the LCMS to join the OC. Granted we've not been chrismated into the OC yet, it is just a question of a short time, and I already have made up my mind. Giving notice at your local parish is one thing, but what about the home office in St. Louis? Since I was brought up in the LCMS and have never been anything else, but...is there some sort of "formal" exit or separation that I have to do with St. Louis? Maybe this is a naive question, but I'm really clueless about it.

                  Thanks,

                  David




                  --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Todd Harman <tharman32@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Kim
                  >  
                  > I would have to agree with the "cold turkey" line of thought. Recognizing that you may be involved in something that might "require" you to stay involved for a little while - until someone else takes over, is trained etc.
                  >  
                  > I stayed involved in certain posts - and since my heart was not even close to being "in it" - I'm sure my performance was not quite up to the "Glory of God" standard expressed by St. Paul.
                  >
                  > However - you should certainly explain why you are leaving to those who ask and leave in the spirit of love. Randall said it best - God places everyone in our lives for a reason, and nothing I've come across in Orthodoxy prevents Lutheran-Orthodox friendships.
                  >  
                  > I'll certainly pray for you - but again I think you should simply leave, especially if your path is taking you toward the Orthodox Church.
                  >  
                  > Shalom
                  > Todd
                  > --- On Sat, 8/15/09, Kimberly Sparling <belleartmom@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > From: Kimberly Sparling <belleartmom@...>
                  > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Question for former Lutherans
                  > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Saturday, August 15, 2009, 10:29 AM
                  >
                  >
                  >  
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                  >
                  >
                  > I have been wondering for a few weeks now how to go about actually *leaving*
                  > the Lutheran church where I have been an active member for the past 5 years.
                  > I have been attending an Orthodox church with my family for the past month,
                  > and would like to continue doing that. My dh and I did not attend the
                  > Lutheran church together, at the time he still had a paid position in the
                  > music "ministry" at the Methodist church we previously attended.
                  > So I feel kind of weird still performing my duties in things like LWML (I
                  > am a circle leader), picking up and delivering bread for our food pantry,
                  > etc. I am also council secretary and my term ends this year, so obviously I
                  > was going to decline if they ask me to continue that responsibility.
                  > Do I quit "cold turkey" and resign from everything? I have never done this
                  > before.
                  > Kim S.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                • Dave W.
                  If I may be so bold as to piggy-back on Kim s question, with my own related one. I have just given my Lutheran Church notice that my wife and I will not be
                  Message 8 of 16 , Aug 16, 2009
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                    If I may be so bold as to piggy-back on Kim's question, with my own related one. I have just given my Lutheran Church notice that my wife and I will not be coming back, and that we're leaving the LCMS to join the OC. Granted we've not been chrismated into the OC yet, it is just a question of a short time, and I already have made up my mind. Giving notice at your local parish is one thing, but what about the home office in St. Louis? Since I was brought up in the LCMS and have never been anything else, but...is there some sort of "formal" exit or separation that I have to do with St. Louis? Maybe this is a naive question, but I'm really clueless about it.

                    Thanks,

                    David




                    --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Todd Harman <tharman32@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Kim
                    >  
                    > I would have to agree with the "cold turkey" line of thought. Recognizing that you may be involved in something that might "require" you to stay involved for a little while - until someone else takes over, is trained etc.
                    >  
                    > I stayed involved in certain posts - and since my heart was not even close to being "in it" - I'm sure my performance was not quite up to the "Glory of God" standard expressed by St. Paul.
                    >
                    > However - you should certainly explain why you are leaving to those who ask and leave in the spirit of love. Randall said it best - God places everyone in our lives for a reason, and nothing I've come across in Orthodoxy prevents Lutheran-Orthodox friendships.
                    >  
                    > I'll certainly pray for you - but again I think you should simply leave, especially if your path is taking you toward the Orthodox Church.
                    >  
                    > Shalom
                    > Todd
                    > --- On Sat, 8/15/09, Kimberly Sparling <belleartmom@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > From: Kimberly Sparling <belleartmom@...>
                    > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Question for former Lutherans
                    > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Saturday, August 15, 2009, 10:29 AM
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I have been wondering for a few weeks now how to go about actually *leaving*
                    > the Lutheran church where I have been an active member for the past 5 years.
                    > I have been attending an Orthodox church with my family for the past month,
                    > and would like to continue doing that. My dh and I did not attend the
                    > Lutheran church together, at the time he still had a paid position in the
                    > music "ministry" at the Methodist church we previously attended.
                    > So I feel kind of weird still performing my duties in things like LWML (I
                    > am a circle leader), picking up and delivering bread for our food pantry,
                    > etc. I am also council secretary and my term ends this year, so obviously I
                    > was going to decline if they ask me to continue that responsibility.
                    > Do I quit "cold turkey" and resign from everything? I have never done this
                    > before.
                    > Kim S.
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                  • Todd Harman
                    Dave   I left the LCMS - actually I just told my parish pastor. Nothing to St Louis (whether my pastor informed St Louis I don t know - though I doubt it. It
                    Message 9 of 16 , Aug 16, 2009
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                      Dave
                       
                      I left the LCMS - actually I just told my parish pastor. Nothing to St Louis (whether my pastor informed St Louis I don't know - though I doubt it. It would just be reflected in the membership numbers...)
                       
                      My wife, who is still Lutheran, received a letter of "peaceful release" since she is not (yet?) joining the OC. We moved to Tennessee so that is what brought about her letter. I beleive LCMS protocol is simply to inform your pastor. If you are transferring to another LCMS parish, then you get a letter from your "old" pastor to your new one. But in your case it would just be yo're removed from the membership.
                       
                      Blessings on your journey!!
                      Shalom
                      Todd

                      --- On Sun, 8/16/09, Dave W. <dkwiech@...> wrote:


                      From: Dave W. <dkwiech@...>
                      Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Question for former Lutherans
                      To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Sunday, August 16, 2009, 10:53 PM


                       



                      If I may be so bold as to piggy-back on Kim's question, with my own related one. I have just given my Lutheran Church notice that my wife and I will not be coming back, and that we're leaving the LCMS to join the OC. Granted we've not been chrismated into the OC yet, it is just a question of a short time, and I already have made up my mind. Giving notice at your local parish is one thing, but what about the home office in St. Louis? Since I was brought up in the LCMS and have never been anything else, but...is there some sort of "formal" exit or separation that I have to do with St. Louis? Maybe this is a naive question, but I'm really clueless about it.

                      Thanks,

                      David

                      --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, Todd Harman <tharman32@. ..> wrote:
                      >
                      > Kim
                      >  
                      > I would have to agree with the "cold turkey" line of thought. Recognizing that you may be involved in something that might "require" you to stay involved for a little while - until someone else takes over, is trained etc.
                      >  
                      > I stayed involved in certain posts - and since my heart was not even close to being "in it" - I'm sure my performance was not quite up to the "Glory of God" standard expressed by St. Paul.
                      >
                      > However - you should certainly explain why you are leaving to those who ask and leave in the spirit of love. Randall said it best - God places everyone in our lives for a reason, and nothing I've come across in Orthodoxy prevents Lutheran-Orthodox friendships.
                      >  
                      > I'll certainly pray for you - but again I think you should simply leave, especially if your path is taking you toward the Orthodox Church.
                      >  
                      > Shalom
                      > Todd
                      > --- On Sat, 8/15/09, Kimberly Sparling <belleartmom@ ...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > From: Kimberly Sparling <belleartmom@ ...>
                      > Subject: [LutheransLookingEa st] Question for former Lutherans
                      > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                      > Date: Saturday, August 15, 2009, 10:29 AM
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I have been wondering for a few weeks now how to go about actually *leaving*
                      > the Lutheran church where I have been an active member for the past 5 years.
                      > I have been attending an Orthodox church with my family for the past month,
                      > and would like to continue doing that. My dh and I did not attend the
                      > Lutheran church together, at the time he still had a paid position in the
                      > music "ministry" at the Methodist church we previously attended.
                      > So I feel kind of weird still performing my duties in things like LWML (I
                      > am a circle leader), picking up and delivering bread for our food pantry,
                      > etc. I am also council secretary and my term ends this year, so obviously I
                      > was going to decline if they ask me to continue that responsibility.
                      > Do I quit "cold turkey" and resign from everything? I have never done this
                      > before.
                      > Kim S.
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Christopher Orr
                      However one separates from a previous church it should be completely free of any and all self-righteousness, accusation, teaching or witness. The act itself
                      Message 10 of 16 , Aug 17, 2009
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                        However one separates from a previous church it should be completely
                        free of any and all self-righteousness, accusation, teaching or
                        witness. The act itself is the sum total of one's witness and
                        teaching. If the pastor would like to ask more, give a humble answer
                        as best one can.

                        I don't see anything wrong with simply slipping away quietly. I don't
                        see anything wrong with sharing the reason with pastor and friends,
                        maybe even in letter form (though such should always be run by others
                        to make sure no nastiness has accidentally slipped in). Cold turkey
                        is the way it has to be. One can't serve two masters faithfully.
                        Don't assume it has to be painful for all involved and ensure it is
                        painful for all involved - blessed are the meek.

                        Christopher



                        On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 10:53 PM, Dave W.<dkwiech@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > If I may be so bold as to piggy-back on Kim's question, with my own related
                        > one. I have just given my Lutheran Church notice that my wife and I will not
                        > be coming back, and that we're leaving the LCMS to join the OC. Granted
                        > we've not been chrismated into the OC yet, it is just a question of a short
                        > time, and I already have made up my mind. Giving notice at your local parish
                        > is one thing, but what about the home office in St. Louis? Since I was
                        > brought up in the LCMS and have never been anything else, but...is there
                        > some sort of "formal" exit or separation that I have to do with St. Louis?
                        > Maybe this is a naive question, but I'm really clueless about it.
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        >
                        > David
                        >
                        > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Todd Harman <tharman32@...>
                        > wrote:
                        >>
                        >> Kim
                        >>
                        >> I would have to agree with the "cold turkey" line of thought. Recognizing
                        >> that you may be involved in something that might "require" you to stay
                        >> involved for a little while - until someone else takes over, is trained etc.
                        >>
                        >> I stayed involved in certain posts - and since my heart was not even close
                        >> to being "in it" - I'm sure my performance was not quite up to the "Glory of
                        >> God" standard expressed by St. Paul.
                        >>
                        >> However - you should certainly explain why you are leaving to those who
                        >> ask and leave in the spirit of love. Randall said it best - God places
                        >> everyone in our lives for a reason, and nothing I've come across in
                        >> Orthodoxy prevents Lutheran-Orthodox friendships.
                        >>
                        >> I'll certainly pray for you - but again I think you should simply leave,
                        >> especially if your path is taking you toward the Orthodox Church.
                        >>
                        >> Shalom
                        >> Todd
                        >> --- On Sat, 8/15/09, Kimberly Sparling <belleartmom@...> wrote:
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> From: Kimberly Sparling <belleartmom@...>
                        >> Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Question for former Lutherans
                        >> To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                        >> Date: Saturday, August 15, 2009, 10:29 AM
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> I have been wondering for a few weeks now how to go about actually
                        >> *leaving*
                        >> the Lutheran church where I have been an active member for the past 5
                        >> years.
                        >> I have been attending an Orthodox church with my family for the past
                        >> month,
                        >> and would like to continue doing that. My dh and I did not attend the
                        >> Lutheran church together, at the time he still had a paid position in the
                        >> music "ministry" at the Methodist church we previously attended.
                        >> So I feel kind of weird still performing my duties in things like LWML (I
                        >> am a circle leader), picking up and delivering bread for our food pantry,
                        >> etc. I am also council secretary and my term ends this year, so obviously
                        >> I
                        >> was going to decline if they ask me to continue that responsibility.
                        >> Do I quit "cold turkey" and resign from everything? I have never done this
                        >> before.
                        >> Kim S.
                        >>
                        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >>
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                      • AdonaiUplifts@gmail.com
                        David, Todd s response is correct. LC-MS ecclesiology is.... different. It s more a-kin to the structure of the Southern Baptist convention. While it s not
                        Message 11 of 16 , Aug 17, 2009
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                          David,

                          Todd's response is correct. LC-MS ecclesiology is.... different. It's more a-kin to the structure of the Southern Baptist convention. While it's not necessarily practiced, ecclesial authority officially rests with your local congregation. So your pastor (or in some cases, you elder) would be the correct person to notify. You are not required to personally contact St. Louis.

                          Depending on your congregation's protocol and/or current guidelines of the Synod, your pastor or elder may request a letter from you as an official record for your request of 'release.'

                          I was never asked to submit a letter, but I know others who have.

                          Christ is in our midst,

                          Jeremy

                          Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: "Dave W." <dkwiech@...>

                          Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 02:53:33
                          To: <LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com>
                          Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Question for former Lutherans


                          If I may be so bold as to piggy-back on Kim's question, with my own related one. I have just given my Lutheran Church notice that my wife and I will not be coming back, and that we're leaving the LCMS to join the OC. Granted we've not been chrismated into the OC yet, it is just a question of a short time, and I already have made up my mind. Giving notice at your local parish is one thing, but what about the home office in St. Louis? Since I was brought up in the LCMS and have never been anything else, but...is there some sort of "formal" exit or separation that I have to do with St. Louis? Maybe this is a naive question, but I'm really clueless about it.

                          Thanks,

                          David




                          --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Todd Harman <tharman32@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Kim
                          > �
                          > I would have to agree with the "cold turkey" line of thought. Recognizing that you may be involved in something that might "require" you to stay involved for a little while - until someone else takes over, is trained etc.
                          > �
                          > I stayed involved in certain posts - and since my heart was not even close to being "in it" - I'm sure my performance was not quite up to the "Glory of God" standard expressed by St. Paul.
                          >
                          > However - you should certainly explain why you are leaving to those who ask and leave in the spirit of love. Randall said it best - God places everyone in our lives for a reason, and nothing I've come across in Orthodoxy prevents Lutheran-Orthodox friendships.
                          > �
                          > I'll certainly pray for you - but again I think you should simply leave, especially if your path is taking you toward the Orthodox Church.
                          > �
                          > Shalom
                          > Todd
                          > --- On Sat, 8/15/09, Kimberly Sparling <belleartmom@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > From: Kimberly Sparling <belleartmom@...>
                          > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Question for former Lutherans
                          > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Saturday, August 15, 2009, 10:29 AM
                          >
                          >
                          > �
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I have been wondering for a few weeks now how to go about actually *leaving*
                          > the Lutheran church where I have been an active member for the past 5 years.
                          > I have been attending an Orthodox church with my family for the past month,
                          > and would like to continue doing that. My dh and I did not attend the
                          > Lutheran church together, at the time he still had a paid position in the
                          > music "ministry" at the Methodist church we previously attended.
                          > So I feel kind of weird still performing my duties in things like LWML (I
                          > am a circle leader), picking up and delivering bread for our food pantry,
                          > etc. I am also council secretary and my term ends this year, so obviously I
                          > was going to decline if they ask me to continue that responsibility.
                          > Do I quit "cold turkey" and resign from everything? I have never done this
                          > before.
                          > Kim S.
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • AdonaiUplifts@gmail.com
                          In further response to David s piggyback question: If you congregation requires a letter, it only needs to say: I, [Name], am requesting a release of
                          Message 12 of 16 , Aug 17, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            In further response to David's piggyback question:

                            If you congregation requires a letter, it only needs to say:

                            "I, [Name], am requesting a release of membership from [Church Name] Lutheran Church."

                            Signed and dated.


                            Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...>

                            Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 08:11:33
                            To: <LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com>
                            Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Question for former Lutherans


                            However one separates from a previous church it should be completely
                            free of any and all self-righteousness, accusation, teaching or
                            witness. The act itself is the sum total of one's witness and
                            teaching. If the pastor would like to ask more, give a humble answer
                            as best one can.

                            I don't see anything wrong with simply slipping away quietly. I don't
                            see anything wrong with sharing the reason with pastor and friends,
                            maybe even in letter form (though such should always be run by others
                            to make sure no nastiness has accidentally slipped in). Cold turkey
                            is the way it has to be. One can't serve two masters faithfully.
                            Don't assume it has to be painful for all involved and ensure it is
                            painful for all involved - blessed are the meek.

                            Christopher



                            On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 10:53 PM, Dave W.<dkwiech@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > If I may be so bold as to piggy-back on Kim's question, with my own related
                            > one. I have just given my Lutheran Church notice that my wife and I will not
                            > be coming back, and that we're leaving the LCMS to join the OC. Granted
                            > we've not been chrismated into the OC yet, it is just a question of a short
                            > time, and I already have made up my mind. Giving notice at your local parish
                            > is one thing, but what about the home office in St. Louis? Since I was
                            > brought up in the LCMS and have never been anything else, but...is there
                            > some sort of "formal" exit or separation that I have to do with St. Louis?
                            > Maybe this is a naive question, but I'm really clueless about it.
                            >
                            > Thanks,
                            >
                            > David
                            >
                            > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Todd Harman <tharman32@...>
                            > wrote:
                            >>
                            >> Kim
                            >>
                            >> I would have to agree with the "cold turkey" line of thought. Recognizing
                            >> that you may be involved in something that might "require" you to stay
                            >> involved for a little while - until someone else takes over, is trained etc.
                            >>
                            >> I stayed involved in certain posts - and since my heart was not even close
                            >> to being "in it" - I'm sure my performance was not quite up to the "Glory of
                            >> God" standard expressed by St. Paul.
                            >>
                            >> However - you should certainly explain why you are leaving to those who
                            >> ask and leave in the spirit of love. Randall said it best - God places
                            >> everyone in our lives for a reason, and nothing I've come across in
                            >> Orthodoxy prevents Lutheran-Orthodox friendships.
                            >>
                            >> I'll certainly pray for you - but again I think you should simply leave,
                            >> especially if your path is taking you toward the Orthodox Church.
                            >>
                            >> Shalom
                            >> Todd
                            >> --- On Sat, 8/15/09, Kimberly Sparling <belleartmom@...> wrote:
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> From: Kimberly Sparling <belleartmom@...>
                            >> Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Question for former Lutherans
                            >> To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                            >> Date: Saturday, August 15, 2009, 10:29 AM
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> I have been wondering for a few weeks now how to go about actually
                            >> *leaving*
                            >> the Lutheran church where I have been an active member for the past 5
                            >> years.
                            >> I have been attending an Orthodox church with my family for the past
                            >> month,
                            >> and would like to continue doing that. My dh and I did not attend the
                            >> Lutheran church together, at the time he still had a paid position in the
                            >> music "ministry" at the Methodist church we previously attended.
                            >> So I feel kind of weird still performing my duties in things like LWML (I
                            >> am a circle leader), picking up and delivering bread for our food pantry,
                            >> etc. I am also council secretary and my term ends this year, so obviously
                            >> I
                            >> was going to decline if they ask me to continue that responsibility.
                            >> Do I quit "cold turkey" and resign from everything? I have never done this
                            >> before.
                            >> Kim S.
                            >>
                            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >>
                            >
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Fr John W Fenton
                            Hi David, You wrote: .is there some sort of formal exit or separation that I have to do with St. Louis? According to the LCMS constitution, the only
                            Message 13 of 16 , Aug 17, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi David,



                              You wrote:



                              ".is there some sort of "formal" exit or separation that I have to do with
                              St. Louis?"



                              According to the LCMS constitution, the only members of the LCMS are
                              congregations and certain grades of "ministers" (ordained, commissioned,
                              etc.). This means that individual laymen are not members of the LCMS.



                              In terms of your question, then, the only persons who must notify the LCMS
                              about leaving the LCMS are pastors or others who fit the different grades or
                              levels of "ministers." Therefore, when I determined that I could no longer
                              be Lutheran, I submitted two resignations-one to the congregation I served
                              and one to the LCMS. The several laymen who came to the same conclusion
                              simply resigned their membership at the local parish. The LCMS District
                              President concurred that this was the proper procedure.



                              My singular advice to you, then, is that you have done your duty by
                              informing your former LCMS pastor.



                              Asking your prayers, the unworthy priest,





                              Fr. John W. Fenton

                              <http://holyincarnation.org/> Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church

                              Location: 1385 Goddard Rd, Lincoln Park MI 48146

                              Mail: 8941 Quandt Ave, Allen Park MI 48101

                              313.282.6153

                              http://holyincarnation.org

                              frfenton@...





                              From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                              [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave W.
                              Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 10:54 PM
                              To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Question for former Lutherans





                              If I may be so bold as to piggy-back on Kim's question, with my own related
                              one. I have just given my Lutheran Church notice that my wife and I will not
                              be coming back, and that we're leaving the LCMS to join the OC. Granted
                              we've not been chrismated into the OC yet, it is just a question of a short
                              time, and I already have made up my mind. Giving notice at your local parish
                              is one thing, but what about the home office in St. Louis? Since I was
                              brought up in the LCMS and have never been anything else, but...is there
                              some sort of "formal" exit or separation that I have to do with St. Louis?
                              Maybe this is a naive question, but I'm really clueless about it.

                              Thanks,

                              David

                              --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                              <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com> , Todd Harman
                              <tharman32@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Kim
                              >
                              > I would have to agree with the "cold turkey" line of thought. Recognizing
                              that you may be involved in something that might "require" you to stay
                              involved for a little while - until someone else takes over, is trained etc.
                              >
                              > I stayed involved in certain posts - and since my heart was not even close
                              to being "in it" - I'm sure my performance was not quite up to the "Glory of
                              God" standard expressed by St. Paul.
                              >
                              > However - you should certainly explain why you are leaving to those who
                              ask and leave in the spirit of love. Randall said it best - God places
                              everyone in our lives for a reason, and nothing I've come across in
                              Orthodoxy prevents Lutheran-Orthodox friendships.
                              >
                              > I'll certainly pray for you - but again I think you should simply leave,
                              especially if your path is taking you toward the Orthodox Church.
                              >
                              > Shalom
                              > Todd
                              > --- On Sat, 8/15/09, Kimberly Sparling <belleartmom@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > From: Kimberly Sparling <belleartmom@...>
                              > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Question for former Lutherans
                              > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                              <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > Date: Saturday, August 15, 2009, 10:29 AM
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I have been wondering for a few weeks now how to go about actually
                              *leaving*
                              > the Lutheran church where I have been an active member for the past 5
                              years.
                              > I have been attending an Orthodox church with my family for the past
                              month,
                              > and would like to continue doing that. My dh and I did not attend the
                              > Lutheran church together, at the time he still had a paid position in the
                              > music "ministry" at the Methodist church we previously attended.
                              > So I feel kind of weird still performing my duties in things like LWML (I
                              > am a circle leader), picking up and delivering bread for our food pantry,
                              > etc. I am also council secretary and my term ends this year, so obviously
                              I
                              > was going to decline if they ask me to continue that responsibility.
                              > Do I quit "cold turkey" and resign from everything? I have never done this
                              > before.
                              > Kim S.
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Kimberly Sparling
                              Thank you to David for asking this question, and the responses that were given. It will help me, too. Kim ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                              Message 14 of 16 , Aug 17, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Thank you to David for asking this question, and the responses that were
                                given. It will help me, too.
                                Kim

                                On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Fr John W Fenton <frfenton@...>wrote:

                                >
                                >
                                > Hi David,
                                >
                                >
                                > You wrote:
                                >
                                > ".is there some sort of "formal" exit or separation that I have to do with
                                > St. Louis?"
                                >
                                > According to the LCMS constitution, the only members of the LCMS are
                                > congregations and certain grades of "ministers" (ordained, commissioned,
                                > etc.). This means that individual laymen are not members of the LCMS.
                                >
                                > In terms of your question, then, the only persons who must notify the LCMS
                                > about leaving the LCMS are pastors or others who fit the different grades
                                > or
                                > levels of "ministers." Therefore, when I determined that I could no longer
                                > be Lutheran, I submitted two resignations-one to the congregation I served
                                > and one to the LCMS. The several laymen who came to the same conclusion
                                > simply resigned their membership at the local parish. The LCMS District
                                > President concurred that this was the proper procedure.
                                >
                                > My singular advice to you, then, is that you have done your duty by
                                > informing your former LCMS pastor.
                                >
                                > Asking your prayers, the unworthy priest,
                                >
                                > Fr. John W. Fenton
                                >
                                > <http://holyincarnation.org/> Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
                                >
                                > Location: 1385 Goddard Rd, Lincoln Park MI 48146
                                >
                                > Mail: 8941 Quandt Ave, Allen Park MI 48101
                                >
                                > 313.282.6153
                                >
                                > http://holyincarnation.org
                                >
                                > frfenton@... <frfenton%40holyincarnation.org>
                                >
                                > From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>]
                                > On Behalf Of Dave W.
                                > Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 10:54 PM
                                > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Question for former Lutherans
                                >
                                > If I may be so bold as to piggy-back on Kim's question, with my own related
                                > one. I have just given my Lutheran Church notice that my wife and I will
                                > not
                                > be coming back, and that we're leaving the LCMS to join the OC. Granted
                                > we've not been chrismated into the OC yet, it is just a question of a short
                                > time, and I already have made up my mind. Giving notice at your local
                                > parish
                                > is one thing, but what about the home office in St. Louis? Since I was
                                > brought up in the LCMS and have never been anything else, but...is there
                                > some sort of "formal" exit or separation that I have to do with St. Louis?
                                > Maybe this is a naive question, but I'm really clueless about it.
                                >
                                > Thanks,
                                >
                                > David
                                >
                                > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                                > , Todd Harman
                                > <tharman32@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Kim
                                > >
                                > > I would have to agree with the "cold turkey" line of thought. Recognizing
                                > that you may be involved in something that might "require" you to stay
                                > involved for a little while - until someone else takes over, is trained
                                > etc.
                                > >
                                > > I stayed involved in certain posts - and since my heart was not even
                                > close
                                > to being "in it" - I'm sure my performance was not quite up to the "Glory
                                > of
                                > God" standard expressed by St. Paul.
                                > >
                                > > However - you should certainly explain why you are leaving to those who
                                > ask and leave in the spirit of love. Randall said it best - God places
                                > everyone in our lives for a reason, and nothing I've come across in
                                > Orthodoxy prevents Lutheran-Orthodox friendships.
                                > >
                                > > I'll certainly pray for you - but again I think you should simply leave,
                                > especially if your path is taking you toward the Orthodox Church.
                                > >
                                > > Shalom
                                > > Todd
                                > > --- On Sat, 8/15/09, Kimberly Sparling <belleartmom@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > From: Kimberly Sparling <belleartmom@...>
                                > > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Question for former Lutherans
                                > > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                                >
                                > > Date: Saturday, August 15, 2009, 10:29 AM
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > I have been wondering for a few weeks now how to go about actually
                                > *leaving*
                                > > the Lutheran church where I have been an active member for the past 5
                                > years.
                                > > I have been attending an Orthodox church with my family for the past
                                > month,
                                > > and would like to continue doing that. My dh and I did not attend the
                                > > Lutheran church together, at the time he still had a paid position in the
                                > > music "ministry" at the Methodist church we previously attended.
                                > > So I feel kind of weird still performing my duties in things like LWML (I
                                > > am a circle leader), picking up and delivering bread for our food pantry,
                                > > etc. I am also council secretary and my term ends this year, so obviously
                                > I
                                > > was going to decline if they ask me to continue that responsibility.
                                > > Do I quit "cold turkey" and resign from everything? I have never done
                                > this
                                > > before.
                                > > Kim S.
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Benjamin Harju
                                David, When I was a parish pastor, the Synod in St. Louis would send a yearly form that asked for a tally of membership numbers. Nothing there asked about
                                Message 15 of 16 , Aug 18, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  David,

                                  When I was a parish pastor, the Synod in St. Louis would send a yearly form
                                  that asked for a tally of membership numbers. Nothing there asked about
                                  member names, but only numbers. In your case it means that you will be
                                  represented by a tally under the category of membership releases. Your name
                                  never leaves the congregational books. A simple letter requesting release
                                  is enough, and it's something I strongly recommend you do. It will make
                                  things easier when your departure comes up at the parish council and voters'
                                  meeting.

                                  In Christ,
                                  Benjamin Harju


                                  On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 4:16 PM, Kimberly Sparling <belleartmom@...>wrote:

                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Thank you to David for asking this question, and the responses that were
                                  > given. It will help me, too.
                                  > Kim
                                  >
                                  > On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Fr John W Fenton <frfenton@...<frfenton%40sbcglobal.net>
                                  > >wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Hi David,
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > You wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > ".is there some sort of "formal" exit or separation that I have to do
                                  > with
                                  > > St. Louis?"
                                  > >
                                  > > According to the LCMS constitution, the only members of the LCMS are
                                  > > congregations and certain grades of "ministers" (ordained, commissioned,
                                  > > etc.). This means that individual laymen are not members of the LCMS.
                                  > >
                                  > > In terms of your question, then, the only persons who must notify the
                                  > LCMS
                                  > > about leaving the LCMS are pastors or others who fit the different grades
                                  > > or
                                  > > levels of "ministers." Therefore, when I determined that I could no
                                  > longer
                                  > > be Lutheran, I submitted two resignations-one to the congregation I
                                  > served
                                  > > and one to the LCMS. The several laymen who came to the same conclusion
                                  > > simply resigned their membership at the local parish. The LCMS District
                                  > > President concurred that this was the proper procedure.
                                  > >
                                  > > My singular advice to you, then, is that you have done your duty by
                                  > > informing your former LCMS pastor.
                                  > >
                                  > > Asking your prayers, the unworthy priest,
                                  > >
                                  > > Fr. John W. Fenton
                                  > >
                                  > > <http://holyincarnation.org/> Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
                                  > >
                                  > > Location: 1385 Goddard Rd, Lincoln Park MI 48146
                                  > >
                                  > > Mail: 8941 Quandt Ave, Allen Park MI 48101
                                  > >
                                  > > 313.282.6153
                                  > >
                                  > > http://holyincarnation.org
                                  > >
                                  > > frfenton@... <frfenton%40holyincarnation.org> <frfenton%
                                  > 40holyincarnation.org>
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • dkwiech
                                  Thank you all for the advice on proper existing procedure and decorum. I kept it very simple and kind and left it open for the pastor to speak with me, if he
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Aug 19, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Thank you all for the advice on proper existing procedure and decorum. I kept it very simple and kind and left it open for the pastor to speak with me, if he so wishes. That was a few days ago, when I first wrote on here, asking. So far, he hasn't replied. We'll see. I don't want to push the issue, so I'll assume they're fine with it.

                                    David


                                    --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > David,
                                    >
                                    > When I was a parish pastor, the Synod in St. Louis would send a yearly form
                                    > that asked for a tally of membership numbers. Nothing there asked about
                                    > member names, but only numbers. In your case it means that you will be
                                    > represented by a tally under the category of membership releases. Your name
                                    > never leaves the congregational books. A simple letter requesting release
                                    > is enough, and it's something I strongly recommend you do. It will make
                                    > things easier when your departure comes up at the parish council and voters'
                                    > meeting.
                                    >
                                    > In Christ,
                                    > Benjamin Harju
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 4:16 PM, Kimberly Sparling <belleartmom@...>wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Thank you to David for asking this question, and the responses that were
                                    > > given. It will help me, too.
                                    > > Kim
                                    > >
                                    > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Fr John W Fenton <frfenton@...<frfenton%40sbcglobal.net>
                                    > > >wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Hi David,
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > You wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > ".is there some sort of "formal" exit or separation that I have to do
                                    > > with
                                    > > > St. Louis?"
                                    > > >
                                    > > > According to the LCMS constitution, the only members of the LCMS are
                                    > > > congregations and certain grades of "ministers" (ordained, commissioned,
                                    > > > etc.). This means that individual laymen are not members of the LCMS.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > In terms of your question, then, the only persons who must notify the
                                    > > LCMS
                                    > > > about leaving the LCMS are pastors or others who fit the different grades
                                    > > > or
                                    > > > levels of "ministers." Therefore, when I determined that I could no
                                    > > longer
                                    > > > be Lutheran, I submitted two resignations-one to the congregation I
                                    > > served
                                    > > > and one to the LCMS. The several laymen who came to the same conclusion
                                    > > > simply resigned their membership at the local parish. The LCMS District
                                    > > > President concurred that this was the proper procedure.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > My singular advice to you, then, is that you have done your duty by
                                    > > > informing your former LCMS pastor.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Asking your prayers, the unworthy priest,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Fr. John W. Fenton
                                    > > >
                                    > > > <http://holyincarnation.org/> Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Location: 1385 Goddard Rd, Lincoln Park MI 48146
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Mail: 8941 Quandt Ave, Allen Park MI 48101
                                    > > >
                                    > > > 313.282.6153
                                    > > >
                                    > > > http://holyincarnation.org
                                    > > >
                                    > > > frfenton@... <frfenton%40holyincarnation.org> <frfenton%
                                    > > 40holyincarnation.org>
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
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