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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Christians?

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  • Rosemarie Lieffring
    When I had come to the point that I was examining Lutheranism and considering going elsewhere I told myself there was absolutely NO reason to leave Lutheranism
    Message 1 of 72 , Jul 23, 2009
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      When I had come to the point that I was examining Lutheranism and
      considering going elsewhere I told myself there was absolutely NO reason to
      leave Lutheranism unless there was something theologically wrong with it.
      After all...my husband is Lutheran, my children were raised in Lutheran
      schools, all of my good friends were Lutheran, I had completed about 24
      hours of college coursework in Lutheran ministry...I wasn't going to reject
      all of that for superficial reasons, no matter how nice the incense smelled.

      But infant communion was where the rubber met the road for me. It was the
      chink in the armor. I saw the LCMS position as theological error. Later
      there were other things but infant communion and in particular the CTCR's
      response to the South Wisconsin District's proposal on infant communion was
      sufficient for me to see a foundational problem.

      (By that time both of my boys had been confirmed and I still don't have
      grand kids so it wasn't a personal issue in our home.)

      In the end though every convert's story and jumping off points are different
      so as they say...YMMV.-----R

      On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 8:48 AM, nrinne <Nrinne@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      > Hello all,
      >
      > I *am* taking a break. : )
      >
      > Nevertheless, I just wanted to quickly say that I agree with this post in
      > full. I think this area is one where EO could effectively challenge serious
      > Lutherans. At the same time, here, I suspect, we are actually being
      > inconsistent with our own theology. I would like to hear the best arguments
      > from both sides. It seems to me that Paul's words in I Corinthians about
      > "examining one's self" are not there in order to exclude infants! Context is
      > important here � I think as regards "examining one's self" this is something
      > that we are to "naturally" grow into. As the infant's faith in God grows it
      > comes to more fully entail the elements of assent and knowledge (in addition
      > to trust).
      >
      > Of course, if communing infants meant adopting all the practices of the
      > ELCA... : )
      >
      > ~Nathan
      >
      > -
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • randall hay
      Actually I was thinking of laity here....I can still picture the kids lined up. Not a universal practice, of course....in fact I thought it was because they
      Message 72 of 72 , Jul 24, 2009
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        Actually I was thinking of laity here....I can still picture the kids lined up. Not a universal practice, of course....in fact I thought it was because they needed to get to Sunday school first; but then someone explained it to me.





        ________________________________
        From: Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...>
        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 8:41:04 AM
        Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Christians?


        I think the children first thing may have started more as a health concern -
        let the kids take communion from the spoon before all the dirty adults.

        In fact, when you visit a monastery communion is usually done in order of
        'rank' and 'seniority'. So, monastic priests would commune first (in order
        of their ordination date), then married priests, then monastic deacons, then
        married deacons, then the lower orders of clergy (subdeacons, readers,
        chanters) then laity from eldest to youngest (sometimes men first, then
        women, though I have never actually seen this). It would not be uncommon,
        however, even in an ordered situation such as this for clergy and people to
        defer to others as the first shall be last and the last first.

        Christopher

        On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 11:31 PM, randall hay <stortford@sbcglobal .net>wrote:

        >
        >
        > I think others have at least alluded to the fact that Orthodox catechesis
        > is more than just learning; it's participation in the body of Christ. Yes,
        > learning in some degree is necessary, insofar as we may be capable (and it
        > is for the rest of our lives, by the way); but participation in the life of
        > the Church is necessary too.
        >
        > Some people's interest is lukewarm, or perhaps I should say not quite ripe.
        > They don't come regularly to worship God in the company of their brothers
        > and sisters....and so their catechumenate is likely to be lengthy.
        >
        > Those who come regularly, showing that they are earnest in their love for
        > God and are genuinely concerned about their brethren, are likely to be
        > received sooner. Sincere worship of the Trinity and love of the brethren is
        > the heart of the faith, after all, and our eternal vocation in the world to
        > come; not something peripheral.
        >
        > I may be mistaken, but the tide seems to me to be turning more toward
        > reception of converts by baptism. Being Catholic or Methodist isn't what it
        > used to be, after all.
        >
        > A member of our parish, for example, got a degree from a local RC
        > university; in one class a professor suggested that the students pray to God
        > the Mother.
        >
        > I was in a coffee shop recently and I heard what seemed to be two
        > non-denominational Protestants discussing the Trinity. Neither had a clue on
        > the subject. One, who probably did believe in the Holy Trinity, was saying
        > he didn't; the other simply had no idea what the term signified.
        >
        > Fifty years ago we could be sure a RC baptism was in the name of of the
        > Father, Son and Holy Spirit....and your average Protestant likewise.
        > Nowadays it's so uncertain, bishops seem to be increasingly inclined toward
        > re-baptism.
        >
        > (Policy, by the way, is set by the bishop; the priest may make the
        > decision, but it's based on what his bishop decides.)
        >
        > I might mention that you may notice children lining up to commune before
        > adults...this is a practice in some parishes, expressing Christ's teaching
        > that we need to become like little children to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
        >
        > ---For your first visits, remember that it is best to just watch and try to
        > soak in what's happening, without worrying about what to do or where to look
        > in the service book....as a priest commented to me as I began serving behind
        > the altar as a subdeacon, become "all eye."
        >
        > R.
        >
        > ____________ _________ _________ __
        > From: Kimberly Sparling <belleartmom@ gmail.com <belleartmom% 40gmail.com> >
        > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com<LutheransLookingEa st%40yahoogroups .com>
        > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 10:00:46 AM
        > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Christians?
        >
        >
        > On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 8:10 AM, Rosemarie Lieffring <
        > rose.lieffring@ gmail.com> wrote:
        >
        > > When I had come to the point that I was examining Lutheranism and
        > > considering going elsewhere I told myself there was absolutely NO reason
        > to
        > > leave Lutheranism unless there was something theologically wrong with it.
        > > After all...my husband is Lutheran, my children were raised in Lutheran
        > > schools, all of my good friends were Lutheran, I had completed about 24
        > > hours of college coursework in Lutheran ministry...I wasn't going to
        > reject
        > > all of that for superficial reasons, no matter how nice the incense
        > > smelled.
        > >
        > > But infant communion was where the rubber met the road for me. It was the
        > > chink in the armor. I saw the LCMS position as theological error. Later
        > > there were other things but infant communion and in particular the CTCR's
        > > response to the South Wisconsin District's proposal on infant communion
        > was
        > > sufficient for me to see a foundational problem.
        > >
        > > (By that time both of my boys had been confirmed and I still don't have
        > > grand kids so it wasn't a personal issue in our home.)
        > >
        > > In the end though every convert's story and jumping off points are
        > > different
        > > so as they say...YMMV.- ----R
        > >
        > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 8:48 AM, nrinne <Nrinne@excite. com> wrote:
        > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
        > This is something I have been wondering about. I am reading all the books I
        > can on Orthodoxy Christianity, and this weekend our family is going to
        > visit
        > an Antiochan Orthodox church on Saturday.
        > One thing that occurred to me was, If my dh and I join (eventually) , do my
        > kids go through something similar to confirmation? We have an almost 21yo
        > who has developmental disabilities and will live with us indefinitely; a
        > 9yo
        > son and twin girls age 7 1/2. Currently at the LCMS my 21 takes communion,
        > and I have been trying to explain to the younger ones why they can't take
        > communion yet. Would that all change if we converted?
        > God Bless and thank you all for this list!
        > Kim S.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >

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