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Re: Dixie on Energetic Procession on Issues, Etc.

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  • oruaseht
    I couldn t agree more. I m here for the Orthodoxy because I m looking East. I wouldn t be gazing towards the sun if I didn t have theological quandary with
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 8, 2009
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      I couldn't agree more. I'm here for the Orthodoxy because I'm looking East. I wouldn't be gazing towards the sun if I didn't have theological quandary with Lutheran theology and practice. I have little interest in chronicling "what's wrong with Lutheranism." I want to experience the gems of Orthodoxy that so many Lutherans have come to know and love.

      In Christ, friends.

      --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:
      >
      > I think it worthwhile to note that this is a list about Orthodoxy. It is
      > only about Lutheranism insofar as those with a background in the Lutheran
      > church are looking to learn about Orthodoxy and need someone to translate
      > them. 'Dialogue' alone and 'better understanding' are not the purposes of
      > this list.
      >
      > The Orthodox-Lutheran Dialogue Group on Yahoo! would be best for that. I'm
      > sure there are others, as well.
      >
      > Inter-Lutheran dialogue on topics related to Orthodoxy and the Eastern
      > Fathers should be taken off list.
      >
      > I know (from experience) how easy it is to cross this sort of line, so I
      > just wanted to offer a friendly reminder.
      >
      > Christopher
      >
      >
      >
      > On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 11:46 PM, Rev. Brad <bvarvil@...>wrote:
      >
      > >
      > >
      > > Friend (I didn't catch your name, or I would happily call you brother
      > > or sister),
      > >
      > > Perhaps you are right-- I might well have underestimated the influence
      > > of Augustine and his ilk on the west. I might offer, though, that the
      > > deposit of faith in the western catholic faith is not devoid of the
      > > eastern Fathers. They may not take seats of prominence in the west,
      > > but they are read and studied and pondered. I believe they are
      > > especially loved in portions of the conservative Anglican communion,
      > > and are making something of a resurgence in Lutheran and even Roman
      > > circles.
      > >
      > > I would like to discuss which of the AC articles you find to be in
      > > conflict with the ancient Church. I think I know which you may find
      > > troublesome, but with a generous interpretation, perhaps they are not
      > > so hostile to Orthodoxy as might otherwise appear. Keeping in mind
      > > that the AC was written to a hostile Roman crowd and intended to be
      > > irenic, the Apology helps frame the catholic intent of the document.
      > >
      > > It becomes a mutual challenge for us to look on each other with the
      > > best possible construction... And then deal with our authentic
      > > differences with charity and an eye toward reconcilliation. I, too,
      > > am seeking truth... But I recognize that the western catholic churches
      > > represent a tremendous majority of the world's Christians, and I
      > > cannot imagine them wholly bankrupt.
      > >
      > > Grace and peace be with you,
      > >
      > > Brad
      > >
      > > Sent from my iPod
      > >
      > > On Jul 7, 2009, at 8:22 PM, "oruaseht" <oruaseht@...<oruaseht%40yahoo.com>>
      > > wrote:
      > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Dear Brother,
      > > >
      > > > I feel you have under-estimated the extent to which only a few
      > > > Fathers have greatly influenced our Western/Lutheran mind & theology
      > > > - particularly St. Augustine & St. Anselm. What has drawn me to
      > > > Orthodoxy is the whole other world of Patristic thought from the
      > > > "Eastern" Fathers that seems to me to be missing from Lutheran
      > > > theology and practice. I apologize for any caricature of which I may
      > > > have presented St. Augustine's ideas. However, I cannot help but
      > > > think of the core differences in Western & Eastern theology as
      > > > "coming from somewhere." Sola Scriptura is a nice theological maxim,
      > > > but in reality, nobody practices it. It's a sinful world after all.
      > > > We all approach the Scriptures with a lens of some kind: Roman/
      > > > Lutheran/Orthodox. To me the search is, who has the right lens.
      > > >
      > > > My current theological hurdle is that the core teachings of AC
      > > > (among our other Lutheran Symbols) are in opposition in many key
      > > > ways with Orthodoxy. We can't both be right. For me it is a quest
      > > > for truth.
      > > >
      > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
      > > "Rev. Brad"
      > > > <bvarvil@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Friend,
      > > > >
      > > > > I think one must be careful to distinguish what Augustine writes,
      > > > from
      > > > > what readers may imply he means to say. Like the Orthodox, Catholics
      > > > > of Roman and Lutheran stripe perceive the value of intent regarding
      > > > > Baptism. When the Fathers write about the Baptism of fire or blood
      > > > > among the catechumenate, they recognize the role of faith as a
      > > > primary
      > > > > means of grace-- thus, one can see an interpretation of Augustine
      > > > > within that context which perceives the value of faith in the
      > > > parents
      > > > > and mysteriously in the child himself, who would have received
      > > > baptism
      > > > > had they lived long enough to receive it.
      > > > >
      > > > > Augustine has certainly influenced the west, but I don't think we
      > > > need
      > > > > to caricature his theology in order to debate his ideas regarding
      > > > the
      > > > > atonement, grace, predestination, and so forth. He yielded to Holy
      > > > > Scripture to settle doctrinal debates within the context of sacred
      > > > > tradition and the Holy Catholic Church. We might be well advised to
      > > > > follow such a pattern even if we find ourselves at somewhat
      > > > different
      > > > > conclusions.
      > > > >
      > > > > Besides, Augustine isn't the only ancient Father who sounds like
      > > > > Augustine. When I read Ambrose, he sounds very similar. However,
      > > > > though I deeply appreciate both of these great men's contributions
      > > > in
      > > > > their age, I find that they are well counterbalanced by the likes of
      > > > > Chrysostom, Athenasius, and Basil. I will eventually get into
      > > > others,
      > > > > such as the Greogories, and I expect to find them equally
      > > > > fascinating. But when I look for doctrinal foundations, I seek them
      > > > > primarily in the holy scriptures, within the historic context of the
      > > > > holy church, especially as She speaks in ecumenical council.
      > > > >
      > > > > In addition, as a Lutheran, I also receive the Lutheran
      > > > Confessions as
      > > > > faithful to the scriptures and authentic catholic tradition,
      > > > > particularly the AC. But like all our symbols, the Nicene Creed
      > > > among
      > > > > them, they must me understood as their authors intended them, within
      > > > > the great tradition. When the AC speaks of requisite baptism, it is
      > > > > substantiate themselves within the broader catholic context, and not
      > > > > to be confused with the Radical Reformation and the anti
      > > > > sacramentalists.
      > > > >
      > > > > Peace to you,
      > > > > Brad
      > > > >
      > > > > Sent from my iPod
      > > > >
      > > > > On Jul 7, 2009, at 4:35 PM, "oruaseht" <oruaseht@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > God's peace be with you Brother.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > The logical conclusion of Augustine's theology - at least through
      > > > > > our Confessional Lutheran Lens - is that man is born a damnable
      > > > > > sinner. Guilty of Adam's sin. Guilty of eternal wrath and
      > > > > > punishment. The cross of Christ our Lord defends us from the
      > > > white-
      > > > > > hot wrath of God that burns ever against us for our sin-sick
      > > > nature
      > > > > > and thoughts and words and deeds. From the moment of conception we
      > > > > > are by nature children of wrath. Hence, the logical conclusion is
      > > > > > that "it damns and brings eternal death on those who are not born
      > > > > > anew through Baptism and the Holy Spirit" AC II. So, without the
      > > > > > personal connection to Christ's sacrifice to the wrath of the
      > > > Father
      > > > > > in Faith/Holy Baptism we are damned and under God's righteous and
      > > > > > most Holy judgment.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > In cases of Pastoral care in the case of a still birth, I would of
      > > > > > course abandon our Lutheran Anthropology along with you and your
      > > > > > Pastoral colleagues and console the parents with the mercy and
      > > > grace
      > > > > > of a loving God. -- Yet, in the realm of this forum and for the
      > > > sake
      > > > > > of argument, if God is merciful to these unbaptized babies,
      > > > choosing
      > > > > > to turn the "blind eye" to their original sin, why not everyone
      > > > else
      > > > > > too? Why not just leave the matter to Divine providence all the
      > > > time
      > > > > > and not worry about preaching the Gospel? Or perhaps, the Orthodox
      > > > > > have this correct and God isn't a vengeance filled megalomaniac
      > > > and
      > > > > > is truly forgiving and loving and gracious to His creations
      > > > because
      > > > > > we are made in HIs good image to His glory?
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I fear that we have adopted far too much Augustine and not enough
      > > > > > everyone else.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
      > > "Rev. Brad"
      > > > > > <bvarvil@> wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Friend,
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > I don't think Augustine would draw the conclusion you suggest he
      > > > > > > would... At least I've never read such conclusions in his
      > > > writings.
      > > > > > > There is much in his thought, and not all of it embraced by
      > > > > > > everyone... Much the way Luther wrote voluminously and yet any
      > > > > > > lutheran in their right mind would never endorse them all.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Most Lutheran pastors I know, including myself, would leave the
      > > > > > matter
      > > > > > > to Divine providence, noting the inability for the child to
      > > > receive
      > > > > > > baptism in spite of the parents' clear intent (akin to how the
      > > > > > Fathers
      > > > > > > refer to martyred catechumins.) Lutherans tend to recognize
      > > > God's
      > > > > > > means as normative, but never ultimately restricting our
      > > > omnipotent
      > > > > > > Lord from showing grace where He deems fit.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Peace to you,
      > > > > > > Rev. Brad
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Sent from my iPod
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > On Jul 7, 2009, at 2:56 PM, "oruaseht" <oruaseht@> wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Thanks for publishing this link, I don't listen to Issues,
      > > > etc. at
      > > > > > > > all anymore so I missed this. I like this kind of "comparative
      > > > > > > > symbolics" but I really dislike the fact that Todd Wilken
      > > > wouldn't
      > > > > > > > actually host an Orthodox person to talk about Orthodoxy!
      > > > Instead,
      > > > > > > > we get a Lutheran with some "Slavic connections." Why not
      > > > actually
      > > > > > > > get the facts "from the horse's mouth" rather than "pawn shop"
      > > > > > > > theology???!!? I mean, that's why I'm here on this forum! I
      > > > want
      > > > > > the
      > > > > > > > real stuff, not just what a non-Orthodox thinks the Orthodox
      > > > think
      > > > > > > > about things. To me it's pure lunacy.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > I also enjoyed reading the follow up rebuttal on
      > > http://energeticprocession.com/
      > > > > > > > - very informative.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > I think the problem though that Lutherans will have to contend
      > > > > > with
      > > > > > > > is, if we truly believe that Augustine was correct (a
      > > > > > > > *Reformer* ...lol), then we have to believe that Jesus saves
      > > > us
      > > > > > not
      > > > > > > > from our sins but from the blood lust wrath of the Father that
      > > > > > must
      > > > > > > > be satisfied. Which I'm not sure Lutherans actually believe
      > > > any
      > > > > > more
      > > > > > > > - in the latest Lutheran Service Book release, in the Agenda,
      > > > > > there
      > > > > > > > is a prayer for parents of stillborn babies:
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > "Heavenly Father, Your Son bore all our griefs and carried
      > > > all our
      > > > > > > > sorrows. Strengthen the faith of these grieving parents and
      > > > all
      > > > > > who
      > > > > > > > bear this heavy burden. Help them to rely on Your boundless
      > > > mercy
      > > > > > > > and to trust that their little one, who HAS BEEN GATHERED INTO
      > > > > > YOUR
      > > > > > > > LOVING ARMS, will rise on the Last Day; through Jesus
      > > > Christ, Your
      > > > > > > > Son, Our Lord..."
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > How can any Augustinian believing church body pray this
      > > > prayer in
      > > > > > > > good conscience? God's wrath must prevail against this little
      > > > > > > > unbaptized sinner! He must be burning in the unquenchable
      > > > fires of
      > > > > > > > hell! -- I'm being purposely facetious here. (most Lutheran
      > > > > > Pastors
      > > > > > > > I know would never ever tell grieving parents that their
      > > > > > miscarried/
      > > > > > > > stillborn baby is in hell). BUT, that's what Augustinian
      > > > > > > > Anthropology teaches. But Webber & Wilken never brought that
      > > > up.
      > > > > > How
      > > > > > > > convenient. That lazy cur Pelagius and his Orthodox
      > > > followers must
      > > > > > > > be stomped out. heheehehe... Issues, etc. is a gong show.
      > > > > > > >
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