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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Three Strange Days, A Response to Issues, Etc.

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  • Christopher Orr
    Perry s comment regarding a dichotomy between Chalcedonian Christology articulated in Ecumenical Council, and the views of Orthodoxy also confused me. I
    Message 1 of 72 , Jul 4, 2009
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      Perry's comment regarding a dichotomy "between Chalcedonian Christology
      articulated in Ecumenical Council, and the views of Orthodoxy" also
      confused me. I would guess it is a spelling or typing error as that is not
      usually the angle I have seen him take on such things.

      i applaud you effort to understand Orthodoxy on its own terms - even if it
      is simply to better defend Lutheranism. That purpose of Issues Etc isn't
      the problem as much as it is its pseudo-expert take on Orthodoxy. Well, to
      be fair, it's probably more an acceptance of Lutheranism as the sine qua non
      of everything else, so whatever others 'say' they mean, in reality they are
      simply mixing Law and Gospel, falling into semi-Pelagianism or works
      righteousness, etc. When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

      Christopher


      On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Rev. Brad <bvarvil@...>wrote:

      >
      >
      > I used to be an ardent listener and supporter or Issues Etc., but the
      > methodology you mention below became standard fare... and when I wrote
      > to them about it (this time in the context of Roman Catholicism, which
      > they should be better versed with) I received no significant response.
      >
      > Of course, IE does not represent the broadest swath of American or
      > global Lutheran thought, but it does offer a strident and angry
      > confessionalism that wins a few and alienated many others... Even
      > Lutherans. They are terrified by the exodus of Lutherans both to Rome
      > and Constantinople, and have chosen vitriolic argumentation over
      > thoughtful dialogue.
      >
      > Of course, I've witnessed this in most Christian communions... It is a
      > sin we must all resist. I, for one, am a Lutheran seeking to learn
      > Orthodoxy from the inside out, as I pursued the study of Romanism over
      > the last decade. I expect it will take me about as long to develop a
      > decent understanding of the east.
      >
      > Out of curiosity, what dichotomy exists between Chalcedonian
      > Christology articulated in Ecumenical Council, and the views of
      > Orthodoxy? Your supposition on this confused me, friend.
      >
      > Grace and peace,
      > Rev. Brad
      >
      > Sent from my iPod
      >
      > On Jul 4, 2009, at 6:20 AM, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...<xcjorr%40gmail.com>>
      > wrote:
      >
      > > Three Strange Days<
      > http://energeticprocession.com/2009/07/03/three-strange-days/
      > > >
      > >
      > > *by Perry Robinson*
      >
      > >
      > > http://energeticprocession.com/2009/07/03/three-strange-days/
      > >
      > > For three strange days a few weeks ago (June 1-3) I listened to a
      > > Lutheran
      > > broadcast on *Issues, Etc <http://www.issuesetc.org/ondemand.html>.*
      > > about
      > > Eastern Orthodoxy. The person chosen for the broadcast was David Jay
      > > Webber,
      > > a Lutheran minister who has spent some time in Russian-Slav world,
      > > along
      > > with the host Todd Wilken.
      > >
      > > Conservative Lutherans continue to blast Orthodoxy with caricature,
      > > half
      > > truths and material deployed without sufficient explanation and
      > > designed to
      > > shock the non-Orthodox, specifically into the conclusion that the
      > > Orthodox
      > > are barely Christian, if at all. Unfortunately this program was no
      > > exception. I have gone through the programs in a separate post
      > > above. Here I
      > > use some space to give some advice to all of the Lutheran critics.
      > >
      > > You have got to stop this kind of argumentation. What I mean is
      > > deploying
      > > arguments from the outside and really bad ones at that. And by that
      > > I mean
      > > argument predicated on showing the falsity of a view grounded in
      > > assumptions
      > > that its advocates would reject. These come in two forms. Either
      > > they are
      > > specifically dependent on non-Orthodox presuppositions or they are
      > > just
      > > caricature and straw men. Outsiders rarely understand and can
      > > effectively
      > > critique a position. As one of my former instructors, Merrill Ring
      > > used to
      > > note concerning the fall of Logical Positivism, that when the
      > > attackers
      > > finally entered the castle of Logical Positivism, they found it
      > > uninhabited.
      > > Its most effective critics were its advocates.
      > >
      > > And the Lutherans need to stop for their own good. When critics of a
      > > position deploy arguments that are easily answered and/or shown to
      > > be based
      > > on misunderstanding and caricature, they loose credibility in the
      > > eyes of
      > > their audience. And if I have learned one thing about apologetics and
      > > persuasion it is that without credibility, your arguments aren�t wor
      > > th very
      > > much. You can have perfectly valid and sound arguments for a
      > > position but if
      > > you lack credibility in the eyes of your audience they won�t give yo
      > > u the
      > > time of day. If Lutherans take the arguments like the ones given on
      > > the show
      > > and get hammered, not only will their confidence in the proponants
      > > of such
      > > arguments will be greatly diminished, but also their confidence in the
      > > correctness of Lutheran theology. This will be the first step to
      > > opening
      > > their minds up to the possibility to a different theological model
      > > and a
      > > different way of understanding the Bible.
      > >
      > > Furthermore, it makes it much, much easier for me to persuade people
      > > of
      > > Orthodoxy when I can easily blow through criticisms and show that the
      > > critics is really under or misinformed. If you wish to continue the
      > > flow of
      > > Lutheran converts to Orthodoxy, by all means continue what you are
      > > presently
      > > doing.
      > >
      > > If the Lutherans wish to give criticisms of Orthodoxy that will
      > > challenge
      > > apologists for Orthodoxy and help retain members of their own fold,
      > > they are
      > > going to have to do their homework. And this means that they are
      > > going to
      > > have understand Orthodoxy from the inside out rather than the outside
      > > looking in. They will have to present it in such a way that its better
      > > advocates will recognize it while bringing out alleged inconsistencies
      > > between its fundamental principles or presuppositions. Until they do
      > > so,
      > > they will always be at a serious disadvantage.
      > >
      > > And they need to be aware that they are already at a serious
      > > disadvantage
      > > from the get go. Orthodoxy is not really familiar to them, and
      > > neither are
      > > Orthodox reads of history, the fathers and the Scriptures. Orthodox
      > > authors
      > > are virtually unknown to them beyond the pop stuff like Ware�s book.
      > > And let
      > > me just get this out of the way. One of the top signs that someone
      > > doesn�t
      > > know Orthodoxy is that they cite Ware�s book as some be all and end
      > > all
      > > papal encyclical. This is not to say that the esteemed bishop�s book
      > > is bad,
      > > but when the Orthodox say we have no pope, we mean it.
      > >
      > > Not only is it necessary to present the position one is attacking in a
      > > recognizable way, one needs to then construct objections to the
      > > effect that
      > > there exist within it inconsistent core assumptions. Either one can
      > > believe
      > > in say the Orthodox view of the Trinity or Chalcedonian Christology,
      > > but not
      > > both. In either case, Orthodoxy as a whole would be false. The only
      > > out of
      > > the dilemma would be either to deny Orthodoxy or show that there is
      > > some
      > > third way, a tertium quid that both can be true. Such would be an
      > > effective
      > > critique because it would strike at the heart of the system. So far,
      > > nothing
      > > from Protestant and specifically Lutheran critics of Orthodoxy even
      > > comes
      > > close.
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • randall hay
      Actually I was thinking of laity here....I can still picture the kids lined up. Not a universal practice, of course....in fact I thought it was because they
      Message 72 of 72 , Jul 24, 2009
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        Actually I was thinking of laity here....I can still picture the kids lined up. Not a universal practice, of course....in fact I thought it was because they needed to get to Sunday school first; but then someone explained it to me.





        ________________________________
        From: Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...>
        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 8:41:04 AM
        Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Christians?


        I think the children first thing may have started more as a health concern -
        let the kids take communion from the spoon before all the dirty adults.

        In fact, when you visit a monastery communion is usually done in order of
        'rank' and 'seniority'. So, monastic priests would commune first (in order
        of their ordination date), then married priests, then monastic deacons, then
        married deacons, then the lower orders of clergy (subdeacons, readers,
        chanters) then laity from eldest to youngest (sometimes men first, then
        women, though I have never actually seen this). It would not be uncommon,
        however, even in an ordered situation such as this for clergy and people to
        defer to others as the first shall be last and the last first.

        Christopher

        On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 11:31 PM, randall hay <stortford@sbcglobal .net>wrote:

        >
        >
        > I think others have at least alluded to the fact that Orthodox catechesis
        > is more than just learning; it's participation in the body of Christ. Yes,
        > learning in some degree is necessary, insofar as we may be capable (and it
        > is for the rest of our lives, by the way); but participation in the life of
        > the Church is necessary too.
        >
        > Some people's interest is lukewarm, or perhaps I should say not quite ripe.
        > They don't come regularly to worship God in the company of their brothers
        > and sisters....and so their catechumenate is likely to be lengthy.
        >
        > Those who come regularly, showing that they are earnest in their love for
        > God and are genuinely concerned about their brethren, are likely to be
        > received sooner. Sincere worship of the Trinity and love of the brethren is
        > the heart of the faith, after all, and our eternal vocation in the world to
        > come; not something peripheral.
        >
        > I may be mistaken, but the tide seems to me to be turning more toward
        > reception of converts by baptism. Being Catholic or Methodist isn't what it
        > used to be, after all.
        >
        > A member of our parish, for example, got a degree from a local RC
        > university; in one class a professor suggested that the students pray to God
        > the Mother.
        >
        > I was in a coffee shop recently and I heard what seemed to be two
        > non-denominational Protestants discussing the Trinity. Neither had a clue on
        > the subject. One, who probably did believe in the Holy Trinity, was saying
        > he didn't; the other simply had no idea what the term signified.
        >
        > Fifty years ago we could be sure a RC baptism was in the name of of the
        > Father, Son and Holy Spirit....and your average Protestant likewise.
        > Nowadays it's so uncertain, bishops seem to be increasingly inclined toward
        > re-baptism.
        >
        > (Policy, by the way, is set by the bishop; the priest may make the
        > decision, but it's based on what his bishop decides.)
        >
        > I might mention that you may notice children lining up to commune before
        > adults...this is a practice in some parishes, expressing Christ's teaching
        > that we need to become like little children to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
        >
        > ---For your first visits, remember that it is best to just watch and try to
        > soak in what's happening, without worrying about what to do or where to look
        > in the service book....as a priest commented to me as I began serving behind
        > the altar as a subdeacon, become "all eye."
        >
        > R.
        >
        > ____________ _________ _________ __
        > From: Kimberly Sparling <belleartmom@ gmail.com <belleartmom% 40gmail.com> >
        > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com<LutheransLookingEa st%40yahoogroups .com>
        > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 10:00:46 AM
        > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Christians?
        >
        >
        > On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 8:10 AM, Rosemarie Lieffring <
        > rose.lieffring@ gmail.com> wrote:
        >
        > > When I had come to the point that I was examining Lutheranism and
        > > considering going elsewhere I told myself there was absolutely NO reason
        > to
        > > leave Lutheranism unless there was something theologically wrong with it.
        > > After all...my husband is Lutheran, my children were raised in Lutheran
        > > schools, all of my good friends were Lutheran, I had completed about 24
        > > hours of college coursework in Lutheran ministry...I wasn't going to
        > reject
        > > all of that for superficial reasons, no matter how nice the incense
        > > smelled.
        > >
        > > But infant communion was where the rubber met the road for me. It was the
        > > chink in the armor. I saw the LCMS position as theological error. Later
        > > there were other things but infant communion and in particular the CTCR's
        > > response to the South Wisconsin District's proposal on infant communion
        > was
        > > sufficient for me to see a foundational problem.
        > >
        > > (By that time both of my boys had been confirmed and I still don't have
        > > grand kids so it wasn't a personal issue in our home.)
        > >
        > > In the end though every convert's story and jumping off points are
        > > different
        > > so as they say...YMMV.- ----R
        > >
        > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 8:48 AM, nrinne <Nrinne@excite. com> wrote:
        > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
        > This is something I have been wondering about. I am reading all the books I
        > can on Orthodoxy Christianity, and this weekend our family is going to
        > visit
        > an Antiochan Orthodox church on Saturday.
        > One thing that occurred to me was, If my dh and I join (eventually) , do my
        > kids go through something similar to confirmation? We have an almost 21yo
        > who has developmental disabilities and will live with us indefinitely; a
        > 9yo
        > son and twin girls age 7 1/2. Currently at the LCMS my 21 takes communion,
        > and I have been trying to explain to the younger ones why they can't take
        > communion yet. Would that all change if we converted?
        > God Bless and thank you all for this list!
        > Kim S.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >

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