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82Is it really fuzzy?

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  • herrdave2_prime
    Apr 23, 2007
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      I agree that dogma is an official church pronouncement, however what is officially fuzzy may not be actually tolerated. The fuzzy part can be generally accepted as if it were dogma, offocially taught to newbies and children. For example, in my neck of the woods I wouldn't know of a priest who would dream of teaching 'as it was written' creation account alongside an allegorical account.I can find canonical jurisdiction's web sites to confirm this. It appears the bible is a fact apart from tradition in this case. Simply put Darwin influenced the whole, even though it wasn't dogmatized.
      Joint worship with the Pope would have been unthought of in the past. NCC and WCC activities have brought this about. How can these changes be placed on the back of the mind for incomming LCMSers?

      --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "tantuslabor" <stoic1348@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear "HerrDave,"
      >
      > Christ is risen!
      >
      > I'll chime in here, if I may. In the first place, the infallible
      > scriptures do not guide all doctrine and practice in Missouri. In the
      > second place, the oral tradition (as you put it) is not a second
      > source in addition to the Scripture (the RC view) or opposed to it
      > (the Protestant view). In the third place, pronouncements by a monk
      > here or a group of monks there are worthy of respect, but no one's
      > voice is the voice of Orthodoxy unless and until the Church receives
      > it as such. In the case of the Council of Florence, for example, only
      > Mark of Ephesus, of all the hierarchs, opposed the false union. But
      > his voice was received, and theirs were not.
      >
      > The infallible God, who speaks infallible words, gives to his holy
      > Church an infallibly right understanding of that word. Otherwise the
      > word itself were not clear.
      >
      > Hope this helps!
      >
      > Cordially,
      >
      > Fr. Gregory Hogg
      >
      > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, herrdave2_prime
      > <no_reply@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Fr Fenton,
      > > How does one from the LCMS brand of Lutheranism deal with the new
      > fuzzier version of truth coverting to Orthodoxy, when it is not the
      > infallible scriptures that guide all doctrine and practice, but oral
      > tradition that has so many variants, especially today when many
      > Orthodox endorse practice and beliefs not seen prior to the time of
      > Darwin? For example, Seraphim Rose opposes theistic evolution and the
      > monks of Athos have codemned the Ecumenical Patriarch's worship with
      > the heretic Pope of Rome. Many LCMS would agree with these views,
      > however they seem to be frige views in Orthodoxy. I recall that the
      > Orthodox consider scripture as part of tradition and that tradition is
      > the rudder, but if scripture indeed has error, then by definition,
      > tradition has also erred.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "JWF" <jwfenton@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Welcome, Sal, to the list! And thanks for the intro.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Not all of us journeyed to Athens, or even Constantinople. Some of us
      > > > journeyed to Antioch <http://www.antiochian.org/> . :-)
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > To answer your question about justifying (nice word choice :-))
      > this journey
      > > > with the concepts of Sola Gratia and Sola Fide, let me offer a few
      > brief
      > > > thoughts and then a question.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Brief Comment
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > The word sola gratia generally indicates that one is brought to and
      > > > maintained in salvation solely by God's grace. The Orthodox
      > liturgy, both in
      > > > its Byzantine and Western rites, steadfastly prays for the Lord's
      > mercy. And
      > > > throughout her various liturgical texts, the Orthodox Church
      > teaches that
      > > > all we are and all we have depends on God's grace and mercy.
      > However, "grace
      > > > doesn't jump on us and paralyze us so we can do nothing and not
      > respond" (as
      > > > my Dean is fond of saying). Rather, the Orthodox liturgy firmly
      > professes
      > > > that the grace of God is freely given-and so is freely received. This
      > > > reception, however, ought not to be considered in the sense of
      > Arminianism,
      > > > but rather according to the story of the Annunciation. The holy
      > archangel
      > > > Gabriel declares, "The Lord [is] with you," not "the Lord will
      > come to you
      > > > once you meet certain conditions." Yet the Lord's grace is so
      > gracious that
      > > > it kindly awaits the most pure Virgin to give her fiat mihi.
      > Keeping that
      > > > story uppermost in mind is, for me, most helpful in maintaining a
      > proper
      > > > understanding of sola gratia.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Question
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > I know what most Lutherans popularly mean by sola fide; namely,
      > that one is
      > > > saved (i.e., converted, or brought from the state of pagan to
      > Christian) by
      > > > faith alone and not by any works or deeds. However, I also am
      > aware that
      > > > some Lutherans view sola fide as applying to the realm of
      > sanctification (as
      > > > this is distinguished from justification). In other words, that one's
      > > > remaining in a state of grace depends on faith and not on works.
      > Before
      > > > offering an answer, then, I guess I need further clarification on
      > which
      > > > understanding (or perhaps another) you have concerning sola fide.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Again, thanks for writing.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Fr John W Fenton
      > > >
      > > > Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
      > > >
      > > > http://HolyIncarnation.org <http://holyincarnation.org/>
      > > >
      > > > <mailto:jwfenton@> jwfenton@
      > > >
      > > > _____
      > > >
      > > > From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
      > > > [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of salsberna
      > > > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 7:46 PM
      > > > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Just Joined
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Hey Ya'll,
      > > > I'm Sal Sberna and I just joined the group. Last August I was
      > > > confirmed into a wonderful ELCA congregation and thus finalized my
      > > > departure from the Southern Baptist/Non-denominational churches I
      > > > have attended all my life. This is not to say I've severed ties
      > > > with those Christians, though. In fact, my father is the Senior
      > > > Pastor at a local Baptist Church. Needless to say, I have been
      > > > introduced into the wonders of the Liturgy, the Sacraments and
      > > > my "Catholic" heritage. About 5 months ago I felt a call to the
      > > > Pastoral Vocation and began to rethink my future accordingly (I'm a
      > > > junior at the University of Houston). Everything was going
      > > > swimmingly until I began to noice some unsettling things happening
      > > > in the ELCA. In general, the overall tone of the ELCA seems to be
      > > > that of many other liberal, Protestant Churches: i.e. a focus on
      > > > the "social gospel," and perhaps even their future stance on
      > > > homosexuality. Anyway, I began to be hesitant about serving in a
      > > > Church that I didn't agree with and was heading in a totally
      > > > different direction than me. So, I started looking at the Roman
      > > > Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. Needless to say, my
      > > > parents weren't thrilled when I brought up arguments like the
      > > > problems with "Sola Scriptura" teaching and the historical
      > > > significance of both the RCC and the Orthodox Church. Now, I find
      > > > myself much more in agreement with the OC concerning participation
      > > > in the Liturgy,Purgatory and the Sacraments. However, having been
      > > > raised a Protestant all my life I still hold fast to the beliefs of
      > > > Sola Gratia and Sola Fide. I guess I'm just looking for a group to
      > > > discuss these questions with. How did ya'll justify the journey to
      > > > Athens? Thanks.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > >
      >
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