- Jan 18, 2008*As a side note: It is not my intention to offend anyone of the Orthodox
faith on this list. However, I don't believe that I should have to pander to
anyone by formulating what I *believe* as a question -- such would be to
weaken my position and give the impression that I am doubtful or something
less than convicted. I *am* here to glean and to learn what the Orthodox and
Lutherans share in common and what it is that attracts a seemingly growing
number of Lutherans to Orthodoxy -- but, at least at present, I am firmly
convicted in my Lutheran confession. If I am in breach of the rules of this
list, I apologize and ask the forgiveness of the moderator and any and all
that I have sinned against. I will humbly acknowledge the rightness of my
removal and/or will remove myself upon the moderator's request.*
As a relatively new list, we haven't really dealt with issues such as this
before, so, if Rev. Jon will allow, I would use his comments merely as an
example from which to discuss the "rules" of this list.
This is a list specifically for those interested in learning more about the
Orthodox faith, which this list assumes to be the fullness of the faith and
the Church. This is not a list for open ended 'dialogue'. This is a forum
for inquiries and questions about Orthodoxy; it is purposefully a reactive
resource that does not go out and try to convert others.
One need not have to pander and imply a lack of sureness in one's beliefs to
participate in the list, but it's customary when desirous of information to
ask questions - and answering questions is what this list is for. We are
most of us former Lutherans (pastors and seminary professors even), so we
know what Lutheranism teaches, and have made ourselves available to explain
Orthodoxy to Lutherans that do not know much about it.
The Archdeacon at my church in NYC said something very interesting to me the
first time I visited with questions. I was insulted at the time, but later
came to understand how I presented myself. I had developed a series of
statements and questions that cut to the quick concerning the Lutheran and
biblical questions I had about Orthodox belief. He looked at them and said
something to the effect of, well, it looks like you have all the answers,
what do you want from me?
I just want to make sure we don't devolve into a type of conversation that
is confrontational in the way our legal system is where winning the argued
point is more important than truth and love. I also don't want to argue
about whether Lutheranism is right or wrong or fall into the trap of
assuming a better argument will convert. We are persons, not abstract
belief groups or syllogisms or debating topics and we all of us have
something to learn from each other.
Besides, we agree that you are "firmly *convicted* in [your] Lutheran
confession", which is why we want to tell you a little more about Orthodoxy?
:) Is your church near Albany? I'm down in Manhattan.
On 1/17/08, Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth <didache@...> wrote:
> My point is this: We *can* *know* that one who believes and is baptized
> will be (is) saved...., because Scripture says so. We *can* *know* that one
> who has received grace through faith is saved...., because Scripture says
> Can, do, will the Orthodox say "We don't know" if such a one whose
> salvation is in question is not Orthodox?
> If the answer to this question, Anastasia, as you have suggested is, "No,
> the Orthodox would not say this," then the whole debate about whether
> Lutherans (or other Christians) will join the Orthodox in heaven must be
> answered entirely, including Orthodox believers, "We don't know" or "Yes, of
> course they will be".
> It seems that this discussion, however, is really about who is the *True
> Church*. Of course, every denomination claims to be the *True Church*.
> Does not Scripture teach that Christ alone is the Truth and the Glory of
> God of which all men (and all communions) fall short? One communion may
> indeed be *closer* to the Truth than another, but to claim "We are the True
> Church, and you're not" is off the mark, misinformed, and uncharitable.
> Love, sacrifice, selflessness, charity, mercy, forgiveness, ...., are not
> these the fruits of those who truly follow He is the Way, the Truth, and the
> As a side note: It is not my intention to offend anyone of the Orthodox
> faith on this list. However, I don't believe that I should have to pander to
> anyone by formulating what I *believe* as a question -- such would be to
> weaken my position and give the impression that I am doubtful or something
> less than convicted. I *am* here to glean and to learn what the Orthodox and
> Lutherans share in common and what it is that attracts a seemingly growing
> number of Lutherans to Orthodoxy -- but, at least at present, I am firmly
> convicted in my Lutheran confession. If I am in breach of the rules of this
> list, I apologize and ask the forgiveness of the moderator and any and all
> that I have sinned against. I will humbly acknowledge the rightness of my
> removal and/or will remove myself upon the moderator's request.
> "He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his
> - St. Cyprian of Carthage
> "O wondrous mystery! One is the Father of all, one also the Word of all,
> and the Holy Spirit is one and the same everywhere. And there is only one
> Virgin Mother;
> I love to call her the Church." - St. Clement of Alexandria
> Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth
> The Lutheran Church of Christ the King
> 14 Pine Drive Pawling, NY 12564
> Office 845.855.3169
> Home 845.855.2616
> E-Mail didache@... <didache%40earthlink.net>
> E-Mail pawlinglutheran@... <pawlinglutheran%40verizon.net>
> Web http://www.pawlinglutheran.org
> Blog http://www.lesteverymanbeblind.blogspot.com
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]