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Are there any Christian anarchists out there?

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  • spiritwrestler73
    I joined this group to find others in my same situation--I m a person who spends a lot of time in prayer and in meditation over the Pslams, the four Gospels,
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 3, 2006
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      I "joined" this group to find others in my same situation--I'm a person
      who spends a lot of time in prayer and in meditation over the Pslams,
      the four Gospels, with special emphasis on the Sermon on the Mount. I
      worship as a Roman Catholic, but I'm in disagreement with many Church
      doctrines. I'm not sure how much longer I can rely on the Catechism's
      statement on the primacy on conscience, due not only to the statements
      made pre-election about how good Catholics can only vote Republican due
      to the abortion issue; and now due to the latest gathering of the
      American Bishops on how to minister to homosexuals. I'm deeply
      committed to absolute pacifism and nonresistance, deeply committed to
      peace and social justice movements, but am very saddened by a lack of a
      feeling of community when it comes to my love of Jesus and worship of
      God. I guess I'm looking for other people out there who are looking
      for a sense of spiritual community and actively pray and worship and
      meditate on the teachings of Jesus Christ. Anyone like that out there
      who wants to start a discussion with me?
    • Pete Z
      i am basically a baptist-anabaptist. i am not totally sold on nonviolence but i lean that way. as far as being a christian anarchist, i believe that
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 3, 2006
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        i am basically a baptist-anabaptist.

        i am not totally sold on nonviolence but i lean that
        way.

        as far as being a christian anarchist, i believe that
        chrisitans, rather than trying to control temporal
        powers like the christian right, they should incarnate
        the kingdom. i just got the book the politics of
        jesus by yoder...you should check that book out.


        --- spiritwrestler73 <spiritwrestler73@...>
        wrote:

        > I "joined" this group to find others in my same
        > situation--I'm a person
        > who spends a lot of time in prayer and in meditation
        > over the Pslams,
        > the four Gospels, with special emphasis on the
        > Sermon on the Mount. I
        > worship as a Roman Catholic, but I'm in disagreement
        > with many Church
        > doctrines. I'm not sure how much longer I can rely
        > on the Catechism's
        > statement on the primacy on conscience, due not only
        > to the statements
        > made pre-election about how good Catholics can only
        > vote Republican due
        > to the abortion issue; and now due to the latest
        > gathering of the
        > American Bishops on how to minister to homosexuals.
        > I'm deeply
        > committed to absolute pacifism and nonresistance,
        > deeply committed to
        > peace and social justice movements, but am very
        > saddened by a lack of a
        > feeling of community when it comes to my love of
        > Jesus and worship of
        > God. I guess I'm looking for other people out there
        > who are looking
        > for a sense of spiritual community and actively pray
        > and worship and
        > meditate on the teachings of Jesus Christ. Anyone
        > like that out there
        > who wants to start a discussion with me?
        >
        >
        >


        Pax,

        Pete



        “Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.” Proverbs 31:8-9



        ____________________________________________________________________________________
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        Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
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      • john kuykendall
        I agree and salute your spiritual practise because as we bring ourselves to a greater consciousness, positive life affirming beliefs are accepted and negative
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 3, 2006
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          I agree and salute your spiritual practise because as we bring ourselves to a greater consciousness, positive life affirming beliefs are accepted and negative thoughts and problems disappear as we express more love, peace, joy, wisdom and harmony with everything that flows unceasingly from God, but many hesitate to venture into the unknown. They tend to cling to the familiar in life, even if they are not happy.
          http://thinkunity.com




          ________________________________
          > To: Lost_Religion_of_Jesus@yahoogroups.com
          > From: kelticpete@...
          > Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 05:05:57 -0800
          > Subject: Re: Lost Religion of Jesus Are there any Christian anarchists out there?
          >
          > i am basically a baptist-anabaptist.
          > i am not totally sold on nonviolence but i lean that
          > way.
          > as far as being a christian anarchist, i believe that
          > chrisitans, rather than trying to control temporal
          > powers like the christian right, they should incarnate
          > the kingdom. i just got the book the politics of
          > jesus by yoder...you should check that book out.
          > --- spiritwrestler73 <spiritwrestler73@...<mailto:spiritwrestler73@...>>
          > wrote:
          > > I "joined" this group to find others in my same
          > > situation--I'm a person
          > > who spends a lot of time in prayer and in meditation
          > > over the Pslams,
          > > the four Gospels, with special eAs we bring ourselves to a greater consciousness, positive life affirming beliefs are accepted and negative thoughts and problems disappear as we express more love, peace, joy, wisdom and harmony with everything that flows unceasingly from God, but many hesitate to venture into the unknown. They tend to cling to the familiar in life, even if they are not happy.omphasis on the
          > > Sermon on the Mount. I
          > > worship as a Roman Catholic, but I'm in disagreement
          > > with many Church
          > > doctrines. I'm not sure how much longer I can rely
          > > on the Catechism's
          > > statement on the primacy on conscience, due not only
          > > to the statements
          > > made pre-election about how good Catholics can only
          > > vote Republican due
          > > to the abortion issue; and now due to the latest
          > > gathering of the
          > > American Bishops on how to minister to homosexuals.
          > > I'm deeply
          > > committed to absolute pacifism and nonresistance,
          > > deeply committed to
          > > peace and social justice movements, but am very
          > > saddened by a lack of a
          > > feeling of community when it comes to my love of
          > > Jesus and worship of
          > > God. I guess I'm looking for other people out there
          > > who are looking
          > > for a sense of spiritual community and actively pray
          > > and worship and
          > > meditate on the teachings of Jesus Christ. Anyone
          > > like that out there
          > > who wants to start a discussion with me?
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > Pax,
          > Pete
          > “Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.” Proverbs 31:8-9
          > __________________________________________________________
          > Do you Yahoo!?
          > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
          > http://new.mail.yahoo.com
          >

          _________________________________________________________________
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        • Jennifer Lipka
          Thank you, Pete! I also struggle with how much energy I should spend on the temporal powers , as you put it...I really love the religious writings of Leo
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 3, 2006
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            Thank you, Pete!  I also struggle with how much energy I should spend on the "temporal powers", as you put it...I really love the religious writings of Leo Tolstoy, and I really love Ammon Hennacy, the American peace activist/Catholic Worker activist.  Both discussed not partaking in government; Hennacy was even able to live through bartering and being a day laborer who never paid taxes in his life, because he refused to have his taxes go to defense spending (he sat in jail during World War I for being a conscientious objector); but before I was ever a Christian I was politically interested and active.  I am a really huge fan of democracy and the power of the individual, so I find myself looking at what is going on in the temporal world.  Today before Mass I heard that there is about to be a three-way war in Africa, and I asked Jesus for help in establishing peace in the world, and to please help all of the innocent civilians caught up in bloodshed, violence, displacement, starvation, homelessness, insecurity because of war--what terrible suffering.  And then of course I ponder "Thy will be done", and my inability to really grasp God's plan; could all this suffering and war be a part of God's plan?  Is it His will?  Or more human failing, humans saying no to God, the result of sin?  I usually get so confused as to whether I am asking God for the right things that I end all prayer in simply saying "You know our needs, you know our hearts, you know how we are to be a part of your plan, help us and have mercy on us."  Most of the time I can only hope that my desire to love Jesus and be filled with God's love is enough of the right thing to ask for in prayer.
            I will look for Yoder's book.  But I do hate discussion of whether Jesus is a Democrat or a Republican; there is really no moral force in our political system, as far as I can see.  I've been reading "A Testament of Hope"--the collected speeches and sermons and writings of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., and talk about a moral force to be reckoned with, with such a clear understanding of the spiritual and political state of the world!
            Anyway, thanks, and peace be with you!
            Jennifer


            Pete Z <kelticpete@...> wrote:
            i am basically a baptist-anabaptist.

            i am not totally sold on nonviolence but i lean that
            way.

            as far as being a christian anarchist, i believe that
            chrisitans, rather than trying to control temporal
            powers like the christian right, they should incarnate
            the kingdom. i just got the book the politics of
            jesus by yoder...you should check that book out.

            --- spiritwrestler73 <spiritwrestler73@ yahoo.com>
            wrote:

            > I "joined" this group to find others in my same
            > situation--I' m a person
            > who spends a lot of time in prayer and in meditation
            > over the Pslams,
            > the four Gospels, with special emphasis on the
            > Sermon on the Mount. I
            > worship as a Roman Catholic, but I'm in disagreement
            > with many Church
            > doctrines. I'm not sure how much longer I can rely
            > on the Catechism's
            > statement on the primacy on conscience, due not only
            > to the statements
            > made pre-election about how good Catholics can only
            > vote Republican due
            > to the abortion issue; and now due to the latest
            > gathering of the
            > American Bishops on how to minister to homosexuals.
            > I'm deeply
            > committed to absolute pacifism and nonresistance,
            > deeply committed to
            > peace and social justice movements, but am very
            > saddened by a lack of a
            > feeling of community when it comes to my love of
            > Jesus and worship of
            > God. I guess I'm looking for other people out there
            > who are looking
            > for a sense of spiritual community and actively pray
            > and worship and
            > meditate on the teachings of Jesus Christ. Anyone
            > like that out there
            > who wants to start a discussion with me?
            >
            >
            >

            Pax,

            Pete



            “Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.” Proverbs 31:8-9

            ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
            Do you Yahoo!?
            Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
            http://new.mail. yahoo.com


            Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.

          • Alexandre Christoyannopoulos
            Dear Jennifer, I have not been on this list for very long, and I have never sent anything to it until now. Just to introduce myself, I am currently doing a PhD
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 3, 2006
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              Dear Jennifer,
               
              I have not been on this list for very long, and I have never sent anything to it until now. Just to introduce myself, I am currently doing a PhD on Christian anarchist "theory" at the university of Kent in Canterbury, in the United Kingdom. Among the several thinkers I look at in the thesis are Yoder, Tolstoy and Hennacy.
               
              Today, I was reading another one of these thinkers: a guy called Dave Andrews. He was making a very powerful point which offers one possible answer to your question in you email -- hence this email in reply. You ask whether all this suffering is God's will? Well, Andrews was repeating a story of a famous writer who as a kid witnessed the hanging of another Jewish kid during the Second Word War. The observing kid heard a voice behind him asking "where is God now?" To this question, he felt an answer come from deep within him and saying "there, right there, in that poor kid which is suffering". God, in that horrific act, was the one being hanged. That's where He was. So a possible answer to your question is: just as God suffered as Jesus Christ on the Cross, when you see suffering today, it is not God doing it to us, but us doing it to Him. In other words, every time we witness suffering, we are crucifying Christ. 
               
              I find that thought very powerful, and worth pondering for a while.
               
              Love,
              Alex
               
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 10:33 PM
              Subject: Re: Lost Religion of Jesus Are there any Christian anarchists out there?

              Thank you, Pete!  I also struggle with how much energy I should spend on the "temporal powers", as you put it...I really love the religious writings of Leo Tolstoy, and I really love Ammon Hennacy, the American peace activist/Catholic Worker activist.  Both discussed not partaking in government; Hennacy was even able to live through bartering and being a day laborer who never paid taxes in his life, because he refused to have his taxes go to defense spending (he sat in jail during World War I for being a conscientious objector); but before I was ever a Christian I was politically interested and active.  I am a really huge fan of democracy and the power of the individual, so I find myself looking at what is going on in the temporal world.  Today before Mass I heard that there is about to be a three-way war in Africa, and I asked Jesus for help in establishing peace in the world, and to please help all of the innocent civilians caught up in bloodshed, violence, displacement, starvation, homelessness, insecurity because of war--what terrible suffering.  And then of course I ponder "Thy will be done", and my inability to really grasp God's plan; could all this suffering and war be a part of God's plan?  Is it His will?  Or more human failing, humans saying no to God, the result of sin?  I usually get so confused as to whether I am asking God for the right things that I end all prayer in simply saying "You know our needs, you know our hearts, you know how we are to be a part of your plan, help us and have mercy on us."  Most of the time I can only hope that my desire to love Jesus and be filled with God's love is enough of the right thing to ask for in prayer.
              I will look for Yoder's book.  But I do hate discussion of whether Jesus is a Democrat or a Republican; there is really no moral force in our political system, as far as I can see.  I've been reading "A Testament of Hope"--the collected speeches and sermons and writings of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., and talk about a moral force to be reckoned with, with such a clear understanding of the spiritual and political state of the world!
              Anyway, thanks, and peace be with you!
              Jennifer


              Pete Z <kelticpete@...> wrote:
              i am basically a baptist-anabaptist.

              i am not totally sold on nonviolence but i lean that
              way.

              as far as being a christian anarchist, i believe that
              chrisitans, rather than trying to control temporal
              powers like the christian right, they should incarnate
              the kingdom. i just got the book the politics of
              jesus by yoder...you should check that book out.

              --- spiritwrestler73 <spiritwrestler73@ yahoo.com>
              wrote:

              > I "joined" this group to find others in my same
              > situation--I' m a person
              > who spends a lot of time in prayer and in meditation
              > over the Pslams,
              > the four Gospels, with special emphasis on the
              > Sermon on the Mount. I
              > worship as a Roman Catholic, but I'm in disagreement
              > with many Church
              > doctrines. I'm not sure how much longer I can rely
              > on the Catechism's
              > statement on the primacy on conscience, due not only
              > to the statements
              > made pre-election about how good Catholics can only
              > vote Republican due
              > to the abortion issue; and now due to the latest
              > gathering of the
              > American Bishops on how to minister to homosexuals.
              > I'm deeply
              > committed to absolute pacifism and nonresistance,
              > deeply committed to
              > peace and social justice movements, but am very
              > saddened by a lack of a
              > feeling of community when it comes to my love of
              > Jesus and worship of
              > God. I guess I'm looking for other people out there
              > who are looking
              > for a sense of spiritual community and actively pray
              > and worship and
              > meditate on the teachings of Jesus Christ. Anyone
              > like that out there
              > who wants to start a discussion with me?
              >
              >
              >

              Pax,

              Pete



              “Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.” Proverbs 31:8-9

              ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
              Do you Yahoo!?
              Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
              http://new.mail. yahoo.com


              Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.

            • Jennifer Lipka
              You rule Alex! Despite the fact that I shouldn t envy, I do envy you and your graduate studies! Next year, in August, I start medical school. My
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 3, 2006
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                You rule Alex!  Despite the fact that I shouldn't envy, I do envy you and your graduate studies!  Next year, in August, I start medical school.  My undergraduate degree is in German Literature, and literature, theology, and philosophy are my great loves.  I tried graduate school in Germanics and had a terrible experience, I felt like I really didn't fit, because I take a Tolstoy "What is Art?" position that doesn't mesh well with current literary theory/the stuff that is getting published.  So I dropped out to focus for years on my spiritual life, living in various intentional communities.  And then I returned to the world, because I could easilly live in my head forever, but feel obligated to try and make a practical positive difference in the world....so I'm going to be a country doctor, and when my school loans are paid off I hope to just work where I'm needed in the so-called Third World.  But I love scholars, people who seriously sit down with books and read and think, it seems a dying art nowadays.....
                Your story is right, my personal belief is that suffering is a result of human sin, people suffer as a result of how we all sin, and yes, we are constantly crucifying Christ.  Sometimes the amount of sin and evil in the world can be very overwhelming for me.  Today I was reading some of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s sermons, and I ended up crying for the world.  He's not a Christian anarchist, but King's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" of 1963 has an excellent critique of the church/institutional religion that certainly speaks to why some turn to Christian anarchism. 
                I have an autographed copy of The Book of Ammon (Ammon Hennacy); there is an old geezer at the Nashville Catholic Worker House named Karl, if he is still alive, who knew Ammon; you might want to try and track him down by emailing the Nashville Catholic Worker House. 
                I am assuming you are Greek?  Are you Orthodox?  Do you currently have a faith community/church that you belong to?  What do you think of the schism between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches?  I worship as a Catholic, in that I go to Mass and love the Mass, just really have a hard time with a lot of church doctrine.  Tolstoy showed me that it is legitimate to recognize the huge difference between Christian doctrine and Church doctrine.
                Anyway, I wish you all the best with your thesis and am excited for you and your studies!
                Peace!
                Jennifer


                Alexandre Christoyannopoulos <ajmc2@...> wrote:
                Dear Jennifer,
                 
                I have not been on this list for very long, and I have never sent anything to it until now. Just to introduce myself, I am currently doing a PhD on Christian anarchist "theory" at the university of Kent in Canterbury, in the United Kingdom. Among the several thinkers I look at in the thesis are Yoder, Tolstoy and Hennacy.
                 
                Today, I was reading another one of these thinkers: a guy called Dave Andrews. He was making a very powerful point which offers one possible answer to your question in you email -- hence this email in reply. You ask whether all this suffering is God's will? Well, Andrews was repeating a story of a famous writer who as a kid witnessed the hanging of another Jewish kid during the Second Word War. The observing kid heard a voice behind him asking "where is God now?" To this question, he felt an answer come from deep within him and saying "there, right there, in that poor kid which is suffering". God, in that horrific act, was the one being hanged. That's where He was. So a possible answer to your question is: just as God suffered as Jesus Christ on the Cross, when you see suffering today, it is not God doing it to us, but us doing it to Him. In other words, every time we witness suffering, we are crucifying Christ. 
                 
                I find that thought very powerful, and worth pondering for a while.
                 
                Love,
                Alex
                 
                 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 10:33 PM
                Subject: Re: Lost Religion of Jesus Are there any Christian anarchists out there?

                Thank you, Pete!  I also struggle with how much energy I should spend on the "temporal powers", as you put it...I really love the religious writings of Leo Tolstoy, and I really love Ammon Hennacy, the American peace activist/Catholic Worker activist.  Both discussed not partaking in government; Hennacy was even able to live through bartering and being a day laborer who never paid taxes in his life, because he refused to have his taxes go to defense spending (he sat in jail during World War I for being a conscientious objector); but before I was ever a Christian I was politically interested and active.  I am a really huge fan of democracy and the power of the individual, so I find myself looking at what is going on in the temporal world.  Today before Mass I heard that there is about to be a three-way war in Africa, and I asked Jesus for help in establishing peace in the world, and to please help all of the innocent civilians caught up in bloodshed, violence, displacement, starvation, homelessness, insecurity because of war--what terrible suffering.  And then of course I ponder "Thy will be done", and my inability to really grasp God's plan; could all this suffering and war be a part of God's plan?  Is it His will?  Or more human failing, humans saying no to God, the result of sin?  I usually get so confused as to whether I am asking God for the right things that I end all prayer in simply saying "You know our needs, you know our hearts, you know how we are to be a part of your plan, help us and have mercy on us."  Most of the time I can only hope that my desire to love Jesus and be filled with God's love is enough of the right thing to ask for in prayer.
                I will look for Yoder's book.  But I do hate discussion of whether Jesus is a Democrat or a Republican; there is really no moral force in our political system, as far as I can see.  I've been reading "A Testament of Hope"--the collected speeches and sermons and writings of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., and talk about a moral force to be reckoned with, with such a clear understanding of the spiritual and political state of the world!
                Anyway, thanks, and peace be with you!
                Jennifer


                Pete Z <kelticpete@yahoo. com> wrote:
                i am basically a baptist-anabaptist.

                i am not totally sold on nonviolence but i lean that
                way.

                as far as being a christian anarchist, i believe that
                chrisitans, rather than trying to control temporal
                powers like the christian right, they should incarnate
                the kingdom. i just got the book the politics of
                jesus by yoder...you should check that book out.

                --- spiritwrestler73 <spiritwrestler73@ yahoo.com>
                wrote:

                > I "joined" this group to find others in my same
                > situation--I' m a person
                > who spends a lot of time in prayer and in meditation
                > over the Pslams,
                > the four Gospels, with special emphasis on the
                > Sermon on the Mount. I
                > worship as a Roman Catholic, but I'm in disagreement
                > with many Church
                > doctrines. I'm not sure how much longer I can rely
                > on the Catechism's
                > statement on the primacy on conscience, due not only
                > to the statements
                > made pre-election about how good Catholics can only
                > vote Republican due
                > to the abortion issue; and now due to the latest
                > gathering of the
                > American Bishops on how to minister to homosexuals.
                > I'm deeply
                > committed to absolute pacifism and nonresistance,
                > deeply committed to
                > peace and social justice movements, but am very
                > saddened by a lack of a
                > feeling of community when it comes to my love of
                > Jesus and worship of
                > God. I guess I'm looking for other people out there
                > who are looking
                > for a sense of spiritual community and actively pray
                > and worship and
                > meditate on the teachings of Jesus Christ. Anyone
                > like that out there
                > who wants to start a discussion with me?
                >
                >
                >

                Pax,

                Pete



                “Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.” Proverbs 31:8-9

                ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                Do you Yahoo!?
                Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
                http://new.mail. yahoo.com


                Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.


                Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

              • Pete Z
                a little bit about politics of jesus While he did important writing in the fields of Anabaptist history and peace studies, Yoder is best remembered for his
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 3, 2006
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                  a little bit about politics of jesus

                  While he did important writing in the fields of
                  Anabaptist history and peace studies, Yoder is best
                  remembered for his reflections on Christian ethics.
                  Rejecting the assumption that human history is driven
                  by coercive power, Yoder argued that it was rather
                  God, working in, with, and through the non-violent,
                  non-resistant community of disciples of Jesus, that
                  was the ultimate force in human affairs. If the
                  Christian church in the past made alliances with
                  political rulers, it was because it had lost
                  confidence in this truth.

                  He called the arrangement whereby the state and the
                  church each supported the goals of the other
                  Constantinianism, and he regarded it as a dangerous
                  and constant temptation. Yoder argued that Jesus
                  himself rejected this temptation, even to the point of
                  dying a horrible and cruel death. Resurrecting Jesus
                  from the dead was, in this view, God's way of
                  vindicating Christ's unwavering obedience.

                  Likewise, Yoder argued, the primary responsibility of
                  Christians is not to take over society and impose
                  their convictions and values on people who don't share
                  their faith, but to "be the church." By refusing to
                  return evil for evil, by living in peace, sharing
                  goods, and doing deeds of charity as opportunities
                  arise, the church witnesses, says Yoder, to the fact
                  that an alternative to a society based on violence or
                  the threat of violence is possible. Yoder claims that
                  the church thus lives in the conviction that God calls
                  Christians to imitate the way of Christ in his
                  absolute obedience, even if it leads to their deaths,
                  for they, too, will finally be vindicated in
                  resurrection.



                  Pax,

                  Pete



                  “Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.” Proverbs 31:8-9



                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
                  http://new.mail.yahoo.com
                • David Leon Henise
                  Jennifer, and all, And in christianity, isn t there a distinction, whatever the terms you use for the basic concepts, between God s will and God s plan? God s
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 3, 2006
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                    Jennifer, and all,

                    And in christianity, isn't there a distinction, whatever the terms you use for the basic concepts, between God's will and God's plan? "God's will - may it be done today. God's plan, thank God, was yesterday." (There's a bit of a joke in expressing it that way, but it's meant to be a sincere praise as well.)

                    blessings,


                    ------
                    David Leon
                    Including spirituality in philosophy, one step at a time..

                    Life...is like a string of sausages. It's all good, until you learn more about what's in them. Then, you have something "new" to deal with, which was actually there all along.

                    http://www.placeofdave.com


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Jennifer Lipka" <spiritwrestler73@...>
                    To: <Lost_Religion_of_Jesus@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 2:33 PM
                    Subject: Re: Lost Religion of Jesus Are there any Christian anarchists out there?


                    > Thank you, Pete! I also struggle with how much energy I should spend on the "temporal powers", as you put it...I really love the religious writings of Leo Tolstoy, and I really love Ammon Hennacy, the American peace activist/Catholic Worker activist. Both discussed not partaking in government; Hennacy was even able to live through bartering and being a day laborer who never paid taxes in his life, because he refused to have his taxes go to defense spending (he sat in jail during World War I for being a conscientious objector); but before I was ever a Christian I was politically interested and active. I am a really huge fan of democracy and the power of the individual, so I find myself looking at what is going on in the temporal world. Today before Mass I heard that there is about to be a three-way war in Africa, and I asked Jesus for help in establishing peace in the world, and to please help all of the innocent civilians caught up in bloodshed, violence, displacement,
                    > starvation, homelessness, insecurity because of war--what terrible suffering. And then of course I ponder "Thy will be done", and my inability to really grasp God's plan; could all this suffering and war be a part of God's plan? Is it His will? Or more human failing, humans saying no to God, the result of sin? I usually get so confused as to whether I am asking God for the right things that I end all prayer in simply saying "You know our needs, you know our hearts, you know how we are to be a part of your plan, help us and have mercy on us." Most of the time I can only hope that my desire to love Jesus and be filled with God's love is enough of the right thing to ask for in prayer.
                    > I will look for Yoder's book. But I do hate discussion of whether Jesus is a Democrat or a Republican; there is really no moral force in our political system, as far as I can see. I've been reading "A Testament of Hope"--the collected speeches and sermons and writings of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., and talk about a moral force to be reckoned with, with such a clear understanding of the spiritual and political state of the world!
                    > Anyway, thanks, and peace be with you!
                    > Jennifer
                    >
                    >
                    > Pete Z <kelticpete@...> wrote:
                    > i am basically a baptist-anabaptist.
                    >
                    > i am not totally sold on nonviolence but i lean that
                    > way.
                    >
                    > as far as being a christian anarchist, i believe that
                    > chrisitans, rather than trying to control temporal
                    > powers like the christian right, they should incarnate
                    > the kingdom. i just got the book the politics of
                    > jesus by yoder...you should check that book out.
                    >
                    > --- spiritwrestler73 <spiritwrestler73@...>
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    >> I "joined" this group to find others in my same
                    >> situation--I'm a person
                    >> who spends a lot of time in prayer and in meditation
                    >> over the Pslams,
                    >> the four Gospels, with special emphasis on the
                    >> Sermon on the Mount. I
                    >> worship as a Roman Catholic, but I'm in disagreement
                    >> with many Church
                    >> doctrines. I'm not sure how much longer I can rely
                    >> on the Catechism's
                    >> statement on the primacy on conscience, due not only
                    >> to the statements
                    >> made pre-election about how good Catholics can only
                    >> vote Republican due
                    >> to the abortion issue; and now due to the latest
                    >> gathering of the
                    >> American Bishops on how to minister to homosexuals.
                    >> I'm deeply
                    >> committed to absolute pacifism and nonresistance,
                    >> deeply committed to
                    >> peace and social justice movements, but am very
                    >> saddened by a lack of a
                    >> feeling of community when it comes to my love of
                    >> Jesus and worship of
                    >> God. I guess I'm looking for other people out there
                    >> who are looking
                    >> for a sense of spiritual community and actively pray
                    >> and worship and
                    >> meditate on the teachings of Jesus Christ. Anyone
                    >> like that out there
                    >> who wants to start a discussion with me?
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    > Pax,
                    >
                    > Pete
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > "Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy." Proverbs 31:8-9
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________________
                    > Do you Yahoo!?
                    > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
                    > http://new.mail.yahoo.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.
                  • Alexandre Christoyannopoulos
                    Thank you Jennifer for your kind words. The way I see it, it s about each and every one of us hearing their calling, finding their vocation. So I m glad you
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Thank you Jennifer for your kind words. The way I see it, it's about each and every one of us hearing their calling, finding their vocation. So I'm glad you seem to have found your calling in becoming a doctor.
                       
                      King is of course no Christian anarchist, but he was inspired partly by Gandhi, who himself was inspired substantially by Tolstoy. Christian anarchists or not, they are all men whose honesty to their faith I thoroughly admire.
                       
                      I am Greek, yes: my father is Greek. But my mum is French, I grew up in Belgium, and I've been living in England for 8 years. I was indeed baptised Greek Orthodox, but I didn't get any religious education or go to church except for Easter sometimes. I only really stumbled back to Christianity in the past few years. But I have not found a church to belong to yet. I hope I will at some point.
                       
                      The schism between the Orthodox and Catholic churches was more a political affair than a religious one. There were theological divergences, but the real reasons for the split are all to do with political power - well, that's how I see it. Still, I suspect that God's grace is still made present through traditional liturgy. So I have no problem participating in a Eucharist whether it be in a Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant church. If they hold any ground as churches, surely, it is as churches of Christ, regardless of their divergences. 
                       
                      Anyway, a busy Monday is calling me.
                       
                      Peace and (or through) love,
                      Alex
                       
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 12:38 AM
                      Subject: Re: Lost Religion of Jesus Are there any Christian anarchists out there?

                      You rule Alex!  Despite the fact that I shouldn't envy, I do envy you and your graduate studies!  Next year, in August, I start medical school.  My undergraduate degree is in German Literature, and literature, theology, and philosophy are my great loves.  I tried graduate school in Germanics and had a terrible experience, I felt like I really didn't fit, because I take a Tolstoy "What is Art?" position that doesn't mesh well with current literary theory/the stuff that is getting published.  So I dropped out to focus for years on my spiritual life, living in various intentional communities.  And then I returned to the world, because I could easilly live in my head forever, but feel obligated to try and make a practical positive difference in the world....so I'm going to be a country doctor, and when my school loans are paid off I hope to just work where I'm needed in the so-called Third World.  But I love scholars, people who seriously sit down with books and read and think, it seems a dying art nowadays.....
                      Your story is right, my personal belief is that suffering is a result of human sin, people suffer as a result of how we all sin, and yes, we are constantly crucifying Christ.  Sometimes the amount of sin and evil in the world can be very overwhelming for me.  Today I was reading some of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s sermons, and I ended up crying for the world.  He's not a Christian anarchist, but King's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" of 1963 has an excellent critique of the church/institutional religion that certainly speaks to why some turn to Christian anarchism. 
                      I have an autographed copy of The Book of Ammon (Ammon Hennacy); there is an old geezer at the Nashville Catholic Worker House named Karl, if he is still alive, who knew Ammon; you might want to try and track him down by emailing the Nashville Catholic Worker House. 
                      I am assuming you are Greek?  Are you Orthodox?  Do you currently have a faith community/church that you belong to?  What do you think of the schism between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches?  I worship as a Catholic, in that I go to Mass and love the Mass, just really have a hard time with a lot of church doctrine.  Tolstoy showed me that it is legitimate to recognize the huge difference between Christian doctrine and Church doctrine.
                      Anyway, I wish you all the best with your thesis and am excited for you and your studies!
                      Peace!
                      Jennifer


                      Alexandre Christoyannopoulos <ajmc2@...> wrote:
                      Dear Jennifer,
                       
                      So a possible answer to your question is: just as God suffered as Jesus Christ on the Cross, when you see suffering today, it is not God doing it to us, but us doing it to Him. In other words, every time we witness suffering, we are crucifying Christ. 
                       
                      I find that thought very powerful, and worth pondering for a while.
                       
                      Love,
                      Alex
                       
                       
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 10:33 PM
                      Subject: Re: Lost Religion of Jesus Are there any Christian anarchists out there?

                      Thank you, Pete!  I also struggle with how much energy I should spend on the "temporal powers", as you put it...I really love the religious writings of Leo Tolstoy, and I really love Ammon Hennacy, the American peace activist/Catholic Worker activist.  Both discussed not partaking in government; Hennacy was even able to live through bartering and being a day laborer who never paid taxes in his life, because he refused to have his taxes go to defense spending (he sat in jail during World War I for being a conscientious objector); but before I was ever a Christian I was politically interested and active.  I am a really huge fan of democracy and the power of the individual, so I find myself looking at what is going on in the temporal world.  Today before Mass I heard that there is about to be a three-way war in Africa, and I asked Jesus for help in establishing peace in the world, and to please help all of the innocent civilians caught up in bloodshed, violence, displacement, starvation, homelessness, insecurity because of war--what terrible suffering.  And then of course I ponder "Thy will be done", and my inability to really grasp God's plan; could all this suffering and war be a part of God's plan?  Is it His will?  Or more human failing, humans saying no to God, the result of sin?  I usually get so confused as to whether I am asking God for the right things that I end all prayer in simply saying "You know our needs, you know our hearts, you know how we are to be a part of your plan, help us and have mercy on us."  Most of the time I can only hope that my desire to love Jesus and be filled with God's love is enough of the right thing to ask for in prayer.
                      I will look for Yoder's book.  But I do hate discussion of whether Jesus is a Democrat or a Republican; there is really no moral force in our political system, as far as I can see.  I've been reading "A Testament of Hope"--the collected speeches and sermons and writings of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., and talk about a moral force to be reckoned with, with such a clear understanding of the spiritual and political state of the world!
                      Anyway, thanks, and peace be with you!
                      Jennifer


                      Pete Z <kelticpete@yahoo. com> wrote:
                      i am basically a baptist-anabaptist.

                      i am not totally sold on nonviolence but i lean that
                      way.

                      as far as being a christian anarchist, i believe that
                      chrisitans, rather than trying to control temporal
                      powers like the christian right, they should incarnate
                      the kingdom. i just got the book the politics of
                      jesus by yoder...you should check that book out.

                      --- spiritwrestler73 <spiritwrestler73@ yahoo.com>
                      wrote:

                      > I "joined" this group to find others in my same
                      > situation--I' m a person
                      > who spends a lot of time in prayer and in meditation
                      > over the Pslams,
                      > the four Gospels, with special emphasis on the
                      > Sermon on the Mount. I
                      > worship as a Roman Catholic, but I'm in disagreement
                      > with many Church
                      > doctrines. I'm not sure how much longer I can rely
                      > on the Catechism's
                      > statement on the primacy on conscience, due not only
                      > to the statements
                      > made pre-election about how good Catholics can only
                      > vote Republican due
                      > to the abortion issue; and now due to the latest
                      > gathering of the
                      > American Bishops on how to minister to homosexuals.
                      > I'm deeply
                      > committed to absolute pacifism and nonresistance,
                      > deeply committed to
                      > peace and social justice movements, but am very
                      > saddened by a lack of a
                      > feeling of community when it comes to my love of
                      > Jesus and worship of
                      > God. I guess I'm looking for other people out there
                      > who are looking
                      > for a sense of spiritual community and actively pray
                      > and worship and
                      > meditate on the teachings of Jesus Christ. Anyone
                      > like that out there
                      > who wants to start a discussion with me?
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      Pax,

                      Pete



                      “Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.” Proverbs 31:8-9

                      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
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                    • Jennifer Lipka
                      The other person whose faith and relationship to Jesus I really admire is Dietrich Bonhoeffer, I love the Cost of Discipleship and find his life and spiritual
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        The other person whose faith and relationship to Jesus I really admire is Dietrich Bonhoeffer, I love the Cost of Discipleship and find his life and spiritual struggle with the evil of Adolf Hitler so thought provoking; talk about putting devotion to the Sermon on the Mount to the test! 
                        I'm kind of a hippy bum in many ways as far as the whole peace and love thing is concerned, and definately a journeyman/sojourner in my own way...I've lived and worked in London, all over Germany, in Amsterdam, all over Portugal, in Paris, and have visited most of Europe, with the exception of Greece.  When I was planning on going I was just 20 years old, and I was doing a Eurorail trip, and after a week in Italy I was going to take the ferry to Greece from Brindisi.  But I was very unaccustomed to machismo, and felt so uncomfortable with how men were constantly talking to me and flirting and just being so full on that instead of getting on the train to Brindisi I got on the first train for Northern Europe, because I heard the men were even worse in Greece as far as being full on with women.  Today I'm old enough and tough enough to handle it, so maybe someday....
                        When I was in Russia I thought the Orthodox churches and services were so romantic, the people seemed so extremely devout.  But I do a piss-poor job when it comes to Church Doctrine, I bet the Orthodox are "just as bad as the Catholics" when it comes to women and gays and who can receive Communion, so I just remain a heretical Catholic.
                        I'm looking forward to going to Maine for medical school, it is way north in "New England", and there are a lot of peace churches in New England, lots of Quakers, Mennonites, Church of the Bretheren, and of course there are a ton of Unitarians in New England.  So I hope to find a good community to worship with.  I'm glad you aren't all caught up like me in all the nit-picky details which make one forget what is most important!
                        God bless!
                        Jennifer


                        Alexandre Christoyannopoulos <ajmc2@...> wrote:
                        Thank you Jennifer for your kind words. The way I see it, it's about each and every one of us hearing their calling, finding their vocation. So I'm glad you seem to have found your calling in becoming a doctor.
                         
                        King is of course no Christian anarchist, but he was inspired partly by Gandhi, who himself was inspired substantially by Tolstoy. Christian anarchists or not, they are all men whose honesty to their faith I thoroughly admire.
                         
                        I am Greek, yes: my father is Greek. But my mum is French, I grew up in Belgium, and I've been living in England for 8 years. I was indeed baptised Greek Orthodox, but I didn't get any religious education or go to church except for Easter sometimes. I only really stumbled back to Christianity in the past few years. But I have not found a church to belong to yet. I hope I will at some point.
                         
                        The schism between the Orthodox and Catholic churches was more a political affair than a religious one. There were theological divergences, but the real reasons for the split are all to do with political power - well, that's how I see it. Still, I suspect that God's grace is still made present through traditional liturgy. So I have no problem participating in a Eucharist whether it be in a Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant church. If they hold any ground as churches, surely, it is as churches of Christ, regardless of their divergences. 
                         
                        Anyway, a busy Monday is calling me.
                         
                        Peace and (or through) love,
                        Alex
                         
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 12:38 AM
                        Subject: Re: Lost Religion of Jesus Are there any Christian anarchists out there?

                        You rule Alex!  Despite the fact that I shouldn't envy, I do envy you and your graduate studies!  Next year, in August, I start medical school.  My undergraduate degree is in German Literature, and literature, theology, and philosophy are my great loves.  I tried graduate school in Germanics and had a terrible experience, I felt like I really didn't fit, because I take a Tolstoy "What is Art?" position that doesn't mesh well with current literary theory/the stuff that is getting published.  So I dropped out to focus for years on my spiritual life, living in various intentional communities.  And then I returned to the world, because I could easilly live in my head forever, but feel obligated to try and make a practical positive difference in the world....so I'm going to be a country doctor, and when my school loans are paid off I hope to just work where I'm needed in the so-called Third World.  But I love scholars, people who seriously sit down with books and read and think, it seems a dying art nowadays.... .
                        Your story is right, my personal belief is that suffering is a result of human sin, people suffer as a result of how we all sin, and yes, we are constantly crucifying Christ.  Sometimes the amount of sin and evil in the world can be very overwhelming for me.  Today I was reading some of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s sermons, and I ended up crying for the world.  He's not a Christian anarchist, but King's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" of 1963 has an excellent critique of the church/institutiona l religion that certainly speaks to why some turn to Christian anarchism. 
                        I have an autographed copy of The Book of Ammon (Ammon Hennacy); there is an old geezer at the Nashville Catholic Worker House named Karl, if he is still alive, who knew Ammon; you might want to try and track him down by emailing the Nashville Catholic Worker House. 
                        I am assuming you are Greek?  Are you Orthodox?  Do you currently have a faith community/church that you belong to?  What do you think of the schism between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches?  I worship as a Catholic, in that I go to Mass and love the Mass, just really have a hard time with a lot of church doctrine.  Tolstoy showed me that it is legitimate to recognize the huge difference between Christian doctrine and Church doctrine.
                        Anyway, I wish you all the best with your thesis and am excited for you and your studies!
                        Peace!
                        Jennifer


                        Alexandre Christoyannopoulos <ajmc2@.... uk> wrote:
                        Dear Jennifer,
                         
                        So a possible answer to your question is: just as God suffered as Jesus Christ on the Cross, when you see suffering today, it is not God doing it to us, but us doing it to Him. In other words, every time we witness suffering, we are crucifying Christ. 
                         
                        I find that thought very powerful, and worth pondering for a while.
                         
                        Love,
                        Alex
                         
                         
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 10:33 PM
                        Subject: Re: Lost Religion of Jesus Are there any Christian anarchists out there?

                        Thank you, Pete!  I also struggle with how much energy I should spend on the "temporal powers", as you put it...I really love the religious writings of Leo Tolstoy, and I really love Ammon Hennacy, the American peace activist/Catholic Worker activist.  Both discussed not partaking in government; Hennacy was even able to live through bartering and being a day laborer who never paid taxes in his life, because he refused to have his taxes go to defense spending (he sat in jail during World War I for being a conscientious objector); but before I was ever a Christian I was politically interested and active.  I am a really huge fan of democracy and the power of the individual, so I find myself looking at what is going on in the temporal world.  Today before Mass I heard that there is about to be a three-way war in Africa, and I asked Jesus for help in establishing peace in the world, and to please help all of the innocent civilians caught up in bloodshed, violence, displacement, starvation, homelessness, insecurity because of war--what terrible suffering.  And then of course I ponder "Thy will be done", and my inability to really grasp God's plan; could all this suffering and war be a part of God's plan?  Is it His will?  Or more human failing, humans saying no to God, the result of sin?  I usually get so confused as to whether I am asking God for the right things that I end all prayer in simply saying "You know our needs, you know our hearts, you know how we are to be a part of your plan, help us and have mercy on us."  Most of the time I can only hope that my desire to love Jesus and be filled with God's love is enough of the right thing to ask for in prayer.
                        I will look for Yoder's book.  But I do hate discussion of whether Jesus is a Democrat or a Republican; there is really no moral force in our political system, as far as I can see.  I've been reading "A Testament of Hope"--the collected speeches and sermons and writings of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., and talk about a moral force to be reckoned with, with such a clear understanding of the spiritual and political state of the world!
                        Anyway, thanks, and peace be with you!
                        Jennifer


                        Pete Z <kelticpete@yahoo. com> wrote:
                        i am basically a baptist-anabaptist.

                        i am not totally sold on nonviolence but i lean that
                        way.

                        as far as being a christian anarchist, i believe that
                        chrisitans, rather than trying to control temporal
                        powers like the christian right, they should incarnate
                        the kingdom. i just got the book the politics of
                        jesus by yoder...you should check that book out.

                        --- spiritwrestler73 <spiritwrestler73@ yahoo.com>
                        wrote:

                        > I "joined" this group to find others in my same
                        > situation--I' m a person
                        > who spends a lot of time in prayer and in meditation
                        > over the Pslams,
                        > the four Gospels, with special emphasis on the
                        > Sermon on the Mount. I
                        > worship as a Roman Catholic, but I'm in disagreement
                        > with many Church
                        > doctrines. I'm not sure how much longer I can rely
                        > on the Catechism's
                        > statement on the primacy on conscience, due not only
                        > to the statements
                        > made pre-election about how good Catholics can only
                        > vote Republican due
                        > to the abortion issue; and now due to the latest
                        > gathering of the
                        > American Bishops on how to minister to homosexuals.
                        > I'm deeply
                        > committed to absolute pacifism and nonresistance,
                        > deeply committed to
                        > peace and social justice movements, but am very
                        > saddened by a lack of a
                        > feeling of community when it comes to my love of
                        > Jesus and worship of
                        > God. I guess I'm looking for other people out there
                        > who are looking
                        > for a sense of spiritual community and actively pray
                        > and worship and
                        > meditate on the teachings of Jesus Christ. Anyone
                        > like that out there
                        > who wants to start a discussion with me?
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        Pax,

                        Pete



                        “Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.” Proverbs 31:8-9

                        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
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                      • Adam
                        Welcome Jennifer to the community. I hope you find it useful on your journey. I like your posts, they strike a chord with me. In answer to your original
                        Message 11 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
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                          Welcome Jennifer to the community. I hope you find it useful on your
                          journey.

                          I like your posts, they strike a chord with me. In answer to your
                          original question, yes I am a Christian anarchist who is inspired by
                          individuals such as Jesus, Gandhi, Hennacy and Francis of Assisi. All
                          these individuals did not just talk the talk, but walked the walk. As
                          Morpheus says in The Matrix, "There is a difference between knowing
                          the path and walking the path."

                          Love and peace,

                          Adam
                        • Jennifer Lipka
                          Thank you, Adam! When I struggle with my Catholicism, I look in the mirror and see that around my neck I am wearing a crucifix--St. Francis s San Domiano
                          Message 12 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Thank you, Adam!
                            When I struggle with my Catholicism, I look in the mirror and see that around my neck I am wearing a crucifix--St. Francis's San Domiano crucifix, the one where the Jesus spoke to him and said "Rebuild my church".  It helps me continue to go to Mass....thanks for reminding me about that good ol' nut St. Francis!
                            Peace and Love to you also!
                            Jennifer


                            Adam <panacea2013@...> wrote:
                            Welcome Jennifer to the community. I hope you find it useful on your
                            journey.

                            I like your posts, they strike a chord with me. In answer to your
                            original question, yes I am a Christian anarchist who is inspired by
                            individuals such as Jesus, Gandhi, Hennacy and Francis of Assisi. All
                            these individuals did not just talk the talk, but walked the walk. As
                            Morpheus says in The Matrix, "There is a difference between knowing
                            the path and walking the path."

                            Love and peace,

                            Adam



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                          • Jennifer Lipka
                            Pete! You ve absolutely sold me on Yoder, I m headed to the library this morning to try and check him out! I like his recognition of Constantinianism ; I
                            Message 13 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Pete!  You've absolutely sold me on Yoder, I'm headed to the library this morning to try and check him out!  I like his recognition of "Constantinianism"; I think often of the lack of a moral force in our contemporary society, but I'm very opposed to organized religion having any more power in our lives than it does, because it seems like institutional anything is flawed (hence why we are all attracted to anarchism, I suppose...).  Thanks for selling me on Yoder, I thought you were recommending yet another "Jesus Was Not A Republican" book, and that I already know and hate getting that nit-picky on who Jesus voted for....
                              Peace!
                              Jennifer


                              Pete Z <kelticpete@...> wrote:
                              a little bit about politics of jesus

                              While he did important writing in the fields of
                              Anabaptist history and peace studies, Yoder is best
                              remembered for his reflections on Christian ethics.
                              Rejecting the assumption that human history is driven
                              by coercive power, Yoder argued that it was rather
                              God, working in, with, and through the non-violent,
                              non-resistant community of disciples of Jesus, that
                              was the ultimate force in human affairs. If the
                              Christian church in the past made alliances with
                              political rulers, it was because it had lost
                              confidence in this truth.

                              He called the arrangement whereby the state and the
                              church each supported the goals of the other
                              Constantinianism, and he regarded it as a dangerous
                              and constant temptation. Yoder argued that Jesus
                              himself rejected this temptation, even to the point of
                              dying a horrible and cruel death. Resurrecting Jesus
                              from the dead was, in this view, God's way of
                              vindicating Christ's unwavering obedience.

                              Likewise, Yoder argued, the primary responsibility of
                              Christians is not to take over society and impose
                              their convictions and values on people who don't share
                              their faith, but to "be the church." By refusing to
                              return evil for evil, by living in peace, sharing
                              goods, and doing deeds of charity as opportunities
                              arise, the church witnesses, says Yoder, to the fact
                              that an alternative to a society based on violence or
                              the threat of violence is possible. Yoder claims that
                              the church thus lives in the conviction that God calls
                              Christians to imitate the way of Christ in his
                              absolute obedience, even if it leads to their deaths,
                              for they, too, will finally be vindicated in
                              resurrection.

                              Pax,

                              Pete



                              “Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.” Proverbs 31:8-9

                              ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                              Do you Yahoo!?
                              Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
                              http://new.mail. yahoo.com


                              Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.

                            • Jennifer Lipka
                              David! Hello! I assume it is God s will for me to say yes to God. Is God s plan what happens? Or is it what would happen if we said yes to God s will?
                              Message 14 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
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                                David!  Hello!
                                I assume it is God's will for me to say yes to God.  Is God's plan what happens?  Or is it what would happen if we said yes to God's will? 
                                Peace!
                                Jennifer


                                David Leon Henise <dave@...> wrote:
                                Jennifer, and all,

                                And in christianity, isn't there a distinction, whatever the terms you use for the basic concepts, between God's will and God's plan? "God's will - may it be done today. God's plan, thank God, was yesterday." (There's a bit of a joke in expressing it that way, but it's meant to be a sincere praise as well.)

                                blessings,

                                ------
                                David Leon
                                Including spirituality in philosophy, one step at a time..

                                Life...is like a string of sausages. It's all good, until you learn more about what's in them. Then, you have something "new" to deal with, which was actually there all along.

                                http://www.placeofd ave.com

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Jennifer Lipka" <spiritwrestler73@ yahoo.com>
                                To: <Lost_Religion_ of_Jesus@ yahoogroups. com>
                                Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 2:33 PM
                                Subject: Re: Lost Religion of Jesus Are there any Christian anarchists out there?

                                > Thank you, Pete! I also struggle with how much energy I should spend on the "temporal powers", as you put it...I really love the religious writings of Leo Tolstoy, and I really love Ammon Hennacy, the American peace activist/Catholic Worker activist. Both discussed not partaking in government; Hennacy was even able to live through bartering and being a day laborer who never paid taxes in his life, because he refused to have his taxes go to defense spending (he sat in jail during World War I for being a conscientious objector); but before I was ever a Christian I was politically interested and active. I am a really huge fan of democracy and the power of the individual, so I find myself looking at what is going on in the temporal world. Today before Mass I heard that there is about to be a three-way war in Africa, and I asked Jesus for help in establishing peace in the world, and to please help all of the innocent civilians caught up in bloodshed, violence, displacement,
                                > starvation, homelessness, insecurity because of war--what terrible suffering. And then of course I ponder "Thy will be done", and my inability to really grasp God's plan; could all this suffering and war be a part of God's plan? Is it His will? Or more human failing, humans saying no to God, the result of sin? I usually get so confused as to whether I am asking God for the right things that I end all prayer in simply saying "You know our needs, you know our hearts, you know how we are to be a part of your plan, help us and have mercy on us." Most of the time I can only hope that my desire to love Jesus and be filled with God's love is enough of the right thing to ask for in prayer.
                                > I will look for Yoder's book. But I do hate discussion of whether Jesus is a Democrat or a Republican; there is really no moral force in our political system, as far as I can see. I've been reading "A Testament of Hope"--the collected speeches and sermons and writings of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., and talk about a moral force to be reckoned with, with such a clear understanding of the spiritual and political state of the world!
                                > Anyway, thanks, and peace be with you!
                                > Jennifer
                                >
                                >
                                > Pete Z <kelticpete@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                > i am basically a baptist-anabaptist.
                                >
                                > i am not totally sold on nonviolence but i lean that
                                > way.
                                >
                                > as far as being a christian anarchist, i believe that
                                > chrisitans, rather than trying to control temporal
                                > powers like the christian right, they should incarnate
                                > the kingdom. i just got the book the politics of
                                > jesus by yoder...you should check that book out.
                                >
                                > --- spiritwrestler73 <spiritwrestler73@ yahoo.com>
                                > wrote:
                                >
                                >> I "joined" this group to find others in my same
                                >> situation--I' m a person
                                >> who spends a lot of time in prayer and in meditation
                                >> over the Pslams,
                                >> the four Gospels, with special emphasis on the
                                >> Sermon on the Mount. I
                                >> worship as a Roman Catholic, but I'm in disagreement
                                >> with many Church
                                >> doctrines. I'm not sure how much longer I can rely
                                >> on the Catechism's
                                >> statement on the primacy on conscience, due not only
                                >> to the statements
                                >> made pre-election about how good Catholics can only
                                >> vote Republican due
                                >> to the abortion issue; and now due to the latest
                                >> gathering of the
                                >> American Bishops on how to minister to homosexuals.
                                >> I'm deeply
                                >> committed to absolute pacifism and nonresistance,
                                >> deeply committed to
                                >> peace and social justice movements, but am very
                                >> saddened by a lack of a
                                >> feeling of community when it comes to my love of
                                >> Jesus and worship of
                                >> God. I guess I'm looking for other people out there
                                >> who are looking
                                >> for a sense of spiritual community and actively pray
                                >> and worship and
                                >> meditate on the teachings of Jesus Christ. Anyone
                                >> like that out there
                                >> who wants to start a discussion with me?
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >
                                > Pax,
                                >
                                > Pete
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > "Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy." Proverbs 31:8-9
                                >
                                > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
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