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Hi From a Muslim truth-seeker

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  • izzetonal_mba
    Hi to all brother and sisters (coming from the same source of our first father and mother, Adam and Eva), Peace to all noble messengers of God (whose name is
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 4, 2006
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      Hi to all brother and sisters (coming from the same source of our
      first father and mother, Adam and Eva),
      Peace to all noble messengers of God (whose name is Allah in my
      belief) including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Ismael, Ishaq, Yaqub, Joseph,
      Moses, David, Soloman, Jesus, Mohammad.
      Peace to you all..
      I've just read your welcome statement relating your main beliefs and
      thought that I can share many things with you in search of truth...
      For now, let me copy my post to a christian discussion forum on a
      faith-based school category. I am posting this because I want to
      give you at least a rough impression about my mentality on beliefs
      and universe.
      I will read your comments and analyse your opinions later since it
      is late at that time in my country, Turkey.
      take care of u all...
      kind regards
      izzet

      here is my message I had posted almost a year ago including one of
      my reply message to a sincere christian brother:
      Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 02:42 pm:

      ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      -----------
      Assalamu alaikum,
      (can you forward this email to the interested organizations and
      persons. Thanks.)

      I want to share some of my opinions and needs on the islamic
      education.

      I am 34-years old, living in Istanbul, married, have a son. I
      graduated as the top successfull student of the 7-years high school
      in Turkey that includes both secular and islamic educations. And
      then I passed the nation-wide university Business Administration at
      METU, Ankara, Turkey. Now, I am the general manager and the owner of
      a media monitoring company in Turkey, called MBA Medya Bilgi Ajansi
      www.medyabilgi.com .

      I want to give an islamic education for my son. His birth date is
      07.03.2001.
      I also want to dedicate myself for an islamic education for muslim
      generations.

      For that reason, I have some new approaches and methods in a sense
      of how an islamic education should be in our current times.

      In my opinion, there should be some basics for an islamic education,
      as shortly given by the headlines below:

      I call this education in my mind as "Qur'an University" project.

      First of all, I should say that we all muslims believes
      that "nothing can demand anything if Allah not demanded" i.e.
      everything can happen only if Allah wishes. So, what we all think
      and do is just our responsibilities in a sense of free choices given
      by Allah. For that reason, all I will write here is just my ideas as
      in a brain storming environment that I hope would be beneficial to
      all interested ones in that field. But, I am also open to all such
      kind of brain-storming ideas and waiting your ideas too.

      1. Education starts at the age of 3 or 4 years old. Open to all
      children whose family voluntarily decide such education for their
      children. A fruitful parents and environment can also make
      contribution for such education. For that reason, some adjustments
      also needed to get more useful fruits from such education.

      2. Education ends at the age of about 18 years old. Only those who
      are capable can improve to an advance levels in special departments
      of the university. Other, together with their education, goes on
      life with marriages and becoming model muslim citizens in their
      places.

      3. Within the FIRST STAGE (3-4 to 8-9 years-old) of the Qur'an
      University, the style and method of the education should havily
      based on funny and play-like style and attractive since the students
      in this age are not mature ones but they are children and need to
      play rather than becoming computerized brains. And all the education
      in this first stage should be given in such delightful manner.

      4. Within the first 4 years of the education, such subjects MUST be
      included in the program:

      4.1. TAHFEZ: Qur'an should be memorized by all students. (There are
      some traditional tahfez methods that solves almost nothing and gives
      almost nothing to muslim society except for the some personal savab
      comes from reading it from Allah, but I have a unique and different
      tahfez methods that aims to understand Qur'an and to go to the
      relations between the verses or surah that enables a student to
      explore the real meaning of Qur'an and its message interesting all
      different issues mentioned in Qur'an. I can submit this new method
      if any brain-storming meeting organized by muslims anywhere anytime
      in detail. I am open to such kind of invitation from any muslim
      organization.)

      4.2. ARABIC LANGUAGE: Qur'an is the first and the unique source of
      guidance in the path of understanding the message of Allah to humans
      that is conveyed by the all noble Messangers including the last
      prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). This Qur'an is such a book
      that is similar to a guidance who is tourist in a foreign country or
      a guidance in a competition or the advices on what/how to do or not
      to do for a human who came to this world as a one-day trip on a
      destination. If all such samples tells us that we have a guidance,
      then the real question comes: how to read this guidance and how to
      understand it? Since, if we want to successfully complete this
      competition whose destination is Paradise besides some extra bonus
      to all those who deserved according to their performances, then we
      should understand this guidance, Qur'an. The first step in order to
      understand this book is to learn its language,i.e. Arabic language.
      That is why all students should also learn Arabic language like a
      mother-language within this first stage.

      4.3. ANY COMMONLY USED WORLD LANGUAGE (Like English): This first
      stage is such a period that memorization and language learning
      abilities easily enables children to perform this basic education
      successfully. Such second commonly used foreign language (for those
      whose native language is not Arabic) is also may be necessary
      because all the students of this Qur'an University can also be able
      to communicate with other humans in the world. Also, the trends and
      developments and the life and the people of the current world can be
      understand better. And the muslims can convey the message of islam
      to other humans both living as muslims in the life and using such
      common languages.

      4.4. MATHMATICS (including all sub categories): Computing is the
      main and legitimate knowledge that our frontiers used in our noble
      civilizations in the past. For that reason, math is the basic of all
      computing and measuring knowledges and this education should be
      giving to all students from easy to advance level from the beginning
      to the end throughout the education. And this education should be
      given by experts who understand what logic lies behind the math.

      4.5. BODY EDUCATION: This education also should be given by experts
      from the beginning to the end of the Qur'an University. If the
      appropriate times decided, then some sports that adviced by our
      Prophet (p.b.u.h.) like horse and arrow etc should be learned and
      the skills of the students in such areas should be improved.

      4.6. SOUL (MORAL) EDUCATION: This education also should be given by
      experts from the beginning (actually, at the beginning, the students
      may not like and prefer to be educated and limited by moral values.
      So, the degree of such education should be adjusted carefully or
      even can be omitted for some period in order not to prevent play-
      style funny learning stage) to the end of the Qur'an University. If
      the appropriate times decided, then some sports that adviced by our
      Prophet (p.b.u.h.) like horse and arrow etc should be learned and
      the skills of the students in such areas should be improved.
      ............. Actually, I can tell you more details from my project
      but I prefer to do this in a different platform rather than typing
      in front of the computer... For that reason, I will just shortly
      give the headlines of some other subjects regarding the Qur'an
      University project.:

      1. The education may benefit from the positive sides of the all
      current education systems in the world but the unique feature of the
      Qur'an University is that it solely depends on its own sources and
      its unique understanding of what human, animal, botanic, earth, sky
      and cosmos, i.e. all the universe from micro to macro level can be
      based completely on a different paradigm, the Islam.... For that
      reason, the content and the source of the education, the objectives
      and the goal and the expected outcome of the education, the methods
      and tools of the education, evaluation and measurements of
      achievement levels, period and start&end times of education, etc.
      etc. etc. many other issues mostly will be different than the
      current education systems of the world.

      2. The physical necessities and environment should also be handled
      and determined in an alternative and natural and simple ways.

      3. All the finance of Qur'an University should be undertaken by only
      muslims involved in this project with their children if not
      childless.

      4. All the teachers should be muslim and only muslims can educate
      their children in this University because the base of this
      university is Qur'an. Still, there is no hostality against any
      human, indifference of religion or life-style or origin etc., since
      one of the ultimate goal of a muslim is to see all humans as
      brothers and sisters coming from Adam and Havva that some chose
      satanic-life unlike others chose Adam-style life (muslim). And a
      muslim can never be an enemy against any human unless he/she becomes
      the enemy of muslims and islam and Allah and what Allah tells.

      5. Within the SECOND STAGE (8-9 years old), students will not learn
      anything more, they will just review what they learned within the
      first stage and making what studied at the first stage more sound
      and explainable with different languages . The first stage education
      will be completed if any wrong or incomplete or forgotten thing
      exists. And in this second stage, students will be met with the
      mature-style behaviours and styles and intentions. etc. etc. This
      one-year period will be bonus for the students and may be named as
      the preparatory stage for the coming third stage.

      6. Within the THIRD STAGE (8-9 to 13 years-old), Preserving what was
      studied and learned at the first stage, the style and the methods
      and the tools can be adjusted and these subjects as mentioned below
      SHOULD (OR MAY) be studied within this stage:

      6.1 HADEETH: A detailed knowledge on hadeeth should be gained. (if
      possible, the six hadeeth books can be memorized). All the subjects
      related with hadeeth should be studied detailly by the guidance of
      experts.

      6.2. NECESSARY AND USEFUL MODERN SCIENCES (This is very complex
      issue and directly related with the worldview and civilization
      mantality of a muslim unlike non-muslim. Therefore, really expert
      muslims should decide whether such sciences should be studied by the
      students or which of them should be studied or should it be studied
      fully or just to get info on such sciences etc. I say this because,
      as far as I understand, almost all the inventions and the modern
      sciences and technology realized and used by non-muslims and the
      consequences of all these science and technology eventually is not
      useful but harmful to human kind and even all the life on the world.
      May be that is why old muslim civilizations prevented some
      inventions although they could have invent and improved them. To
      make decision on this science and technology education, a shura that
      is composed of expert muslims should be convened and discuss this
      issue detailly.)

      ....Actually, there are some more things to be said on the third and
      the fourth (last) stages of the Qur'an University BUT my son came
      here and now I should play with him.

      I think all these written above that comes from my brainstorming
      activity, are enough to give an idea to those who are interested on
      this field.

      Actually, I plan to submit such project after finalize it to Turkish
      community but here in Turkey I fear such a Qur'an University project
      may not be permitted since the current law in Turkey is so called
      secular and does not permit any islamic education until anyone
      completed 8-years of primary school, i.e. feeding a nearly dead-born
      baby. For that reason, I hope anyone of you whose country permits
      such Qur'an university, more responsible than us who lives under a
      secular state.

      One more thing (question): Can anyone of you (or your organizations)
      contribute me (for instance, sending some native arabic or english
      language teacher to our students here in Istanbul) or if we muslims
      can find a way to establish such a Qur'an University in Turkey.
      I wait your opinions and contributions and stop my sentences here
      since my son is drawing all my papers)
      Kind Regards,
      Wassalamu Alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu wa nasruhu.
      izzet ONAL
      izzet@...
      ............
      A reply to my post by Denny was such that (by the way I had liked
      the Denny who had posted this message to me but I afraid that he may
      not understand my case because of the differences of our paradigmas):
      Izzetonal,
      You have made a very good case for Muslim schooling. Do I understand
      that you suggest Muslim's will provide funding for the Qur'an
      University?
      One drawback I see is that, a total Islamic education system would
      tend to create an isolated Islamic community and, in a sense, it
      would become it's own country within a country and that Muslim
      loyalty would be to the Islamic 'state' and not the host country.
      Might a satisfactory alternative be that Muslim children attend a
      public school and there be provided a class, or two, each day for
      Islamic religious and language study and that the Muslim community
      pay for, or at least contribute toward, such instruction?
      There are many Christian fundemental churches in the U.S. that
      provide their own schools thereby avoiding secular education
      entirely. It works for them although I'm not sure how the often
      narrow perspectives bode for the children when they enter into real
      life in our modern world.
      Peace,

      ...we're all going somewhere...
      ....................................
      Here was my replying message to his post:

      Hi Denny,
      first of all, the objective of my message in that forum is to give
      my personal and a kind of brain-storming ideas to other MUSLIMS who
      can share their opinions and contributions on that matter.
      For that reason, I don't want to go to the discussions whose
      objective is different than my needs and opinions.
      Still, thanks for your ideas. For now, at least I can say that my
      mentality is working behind all norms and prejudices. And my world
      is not the world we are all living in. Shortly, I should say that
      this world can meet all the demands and needs of humanbeing but some
      of us are deceived by Satan (the first and greatest and may be the
      unique enemy of human) who started this war against human while Adam
      and Eva were living in Paradise. Now the war not ended and Satan is
      not alone and our brothers and sisters gave up our father's (Adam)
      advices and the advices of other prophets of Allah and eventually
      become a kind of satan, unfortunately. Look around yourself! this
      satanic humans forgot their origins, the advices of their fathers
      and their prophets and become the slaves and friends of Satan. they
      are killing, torturing, slaving their brothers and sisters. In my
      personal opinion, these satanic humans(current frontiers of them are
      the western world) gave up listening their souls and becomes brutal
      and merciless and with the whispers of Satan they invented science
      and technology and used all these weapons as the colonization tools
      over their brothers and sisters and exploitted them and stole their
      all sources and made them slaves for themselves by force at the
      middle of the times of injecting them the "liberty, law, justice,
      human rights...etc." make ups. I believe that human being is not
      free from its own cages. and world is not the same world of what all
      the prophets told and adviced us.
      There is no "you" and "me". you are me. I am you. just think of your
      origin. Think of the what Allah means, His creatures like earth,
      sky, human, satan, animals, botanic, stone, mountains, rivers,
      oceans, imagine whatever you can see, smell, feel, touch, hear,
      imagine.......(my english is not sufficient to write more. sorry.)
      I can just tell you that this Qur'an University project is the inner-
      muslim issue, directly related with them. and I confess it is
      undirectly related with non-muslims, at least for now, since non-
      muslims most probably may not understand the logic behind my
      project. Since we are all closed all eyes to others at the current
      deceiving and unshamed world.
      I see the world is ridiculously going to hell, and trying to find a
      way to show the solutions of how to save all humans (indifference of
      religion, origin, race etc.) and animals and earth from the enemy of
      humans, satans.
      Let me tell you my own sentences to get dialogue before discussions:
      (if you can, translate it from Turkish to english, but I will try to
      translate now)
      *Listen all the nonsenseness! be sure that one of them will be
      logical for you.
      * Drink all the poisons! be sure that one of them will serve you the
      cure
      * Love all the horrors like your own child! be sure that one of them
      will serve you mercy.
      * Cry for all the comedies! be sure that one of them will be your
      own happiness eyetear.
      * Obey all the slaves! be sure that one of them will be your sir.
      ** take a bird in your dream so beyond a the Mountain Kaf (fictious
      mountain).
      ** Go to a place where there is no one can come but birds, go there
      even leaving all your lovings behind and let your fears jelous
      against you.
      ** in a completely dark and alone summer night,
      look at the shining stars with your OWN eyes,
      listen the voices of your OWN hearts with your OWN ears,
      shut up with your OWN mouth and talk with your OWN words,
      write whatever you took to your OWN minds with your OWN pencils in
      your OWN hands on your OWN papers,
      let there be SOMETHING of your OWN.
      it was my OWN dream.
      LOOK AT YOURSELF well.
      O my brothers and sisters! O the sons and doughters of OUR same
      father! whatever who have are all slave except for their souls.
      O Allah! please forgive me and us. Amin.
    • Steve
      Hello. Your post was verry interesting and while i appreciate your love for your children makes you want them to be brought up in a purely islamic manor. But i
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 5, 2006
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        Hello.

        Your post was verry interesting and while i appreciate your love for
        your children makes you want them to be brought up in a purely islamic
        manor. But i feel your suggested program of study shouldn't exclude
        the learning of other faiths also. As a christian i find it hard to
        understand a muslims prespectives on the world as i recieved no
        information on the subject while growing up. If we learn about each
        others religion we will understand each others prespectives better.

        At the end of the day in arabic countries the word christians use for
        god is allah just as in islam, which shows we are worshiping the same
        god but have different understandings of how to do it.

        On a side note sport is very important as healthy body = healthy mind.

        Respect.
      • izzetonal_mba
        Hi Steve, thanks for sharing your kind opinions. Yes, you are right, in my message I copied before, I did not mention about other s (non-muslims ) world-view
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 5, 2006
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          Hi Steve,
          thanks for sharing your kind opinions.
          Yes, you are right, in my message I copied before, I did not mention
          about other's (non-muslims') world-view or beliefs in the education
          of my child or the children in general, although I believe it should
          be included.
          But, I confess that I did not completed what should be in my mind as
          a sound and true way for learning and reaching to truth. Because,
          English is not my native language and I have not yet submit my
          request to other english-spoken world.
          Actually, in my project, i.e. Quran University, all students will
          meet and learn almost all main religions, ideologies, life-styles,
          non-religious and even -to some-ridicilous trends of the current
          world. This education will be given to the students when they are
          about 16-18 year old (in the final stage of the main education
          program). AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING in my education system is
          that: All the students of Qur'an University will learn these other
          religions or ideologies or life styles or trends BY THE
          REPRESENTATIVES OF EACH RELIGION OR IDEOLOGIES. No muslim teacher
          will come and teach something about christianity or anarchist
          christianity or catholic or ortodox or protestan or evangelism or
          Judaism or hinduism or budism or marxizm or humanizm or liberalism
          or capitalism or existantialism or hedonizm....etc. etc. Because,
          the only aim of this students is to UNDERSTAND the TRUTH TRUELY.

          Actually, yes u are right since I had written in my posting that all
          teacher should be muslim. But, actually as I said the only exception
          about the teachers is that. anything other than islam, should be
          submitten by non-muslims. since this is most fair to reach the truth.

          Almost more than a year, I tried and tried and tried to reach almost
          ALL known persons and organizations both muslims and non muslims in
          Turkey including the Prime Minister, president, Director of
          Religious Affairs, all media members, TV stations, newspapers,
          radios, columnists, religious NGO's...etc. etc. BUT BELIEVE ME,
          NOBODY (can you believe this?) INTERESTED. BUT I DID NOT GIVE UP MY
          STRUGGLE. AND I WILL GO WHEREEVER IT GOES...SINCE I AM HUMAN AND I
          AM STRUGGLING AND STRIVING FOR THE HONOUR OF HUMAN BEING. WE ARE
          FREE AND I REJECT ALL THE EDUCATIONAL COLONIZATION AND SLAVERY. I AM
          ALSO NON-VIOLENT ONE BUT I DO NOT WANT TO BE DECEIVED BY ANYONE
          WHOEVER IT IS WHETHER IT IS SO CALLED MUSLIM ORGANIZATIONS OR STATES
          OR ANYTHING...
          I born free...God gives me whatever I need and these are enough for
          me to be thankful to God and we are not animals to be educated like
          animals...

          and I prepared a blog in Turkish about Quran University. If you go
          there, you may understand from the pictures I put there. Silent
          Scream, Lost Paradise...

          http://www.blogcu.com/kuranuniversitesi

          3 of my brainstorming proposals explaining almost all topics comes
          to the mind about the Project exist there as well as some of my
          BASIC beliefs about WHO IS ALLAH? WHAT IS QUR'AN? AND WHAT IS THE
          OTHER LIFE? derived from the Qur'an without comment.
          And if I can, I will prepare this project by ENGLISH and ARABIC as
          soon as I can. And then I want to share with you also the whole
          project.

          Although I am the only one person walking alone for a long time, I
          am optimistic. ALWAYS OPTIMISTIC. SINCE, I, BY MYSELF, BELIEVE THE
          POWER AND MERCY OF GOD.

          I am hugged by the darkest night,
          I am absolutely alone,
          Suns arising somewhere at away,
          I KNOW...

          I am the branch of a dry tree,
          I am absolutely alone,
          somethings sending out roots somewhere at away,
          I SEE...

          neither a voice nor a breath on my cracked lip,
          songs are singed somewere at away,
          I HEAR...

          I AM THANKFUL TO ALLAH WHO IS THE SOURCE OF TRUTH...WHO GAVE US
          EVERYTHING WE NEED, PRIMARILY SOUL AND MIND AND HEART AND EARS AND
          EYES ETC.

          take care of u all,
          your brother izzet.


          --- In Lost_Religion_of_Jesus@yahoogroups.com, "Steve"
          <steve.khateri@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello.
          >
          > Your post was verry interesting and while i appreciate your love
          for
          > your children makes you want them to be brought up in a purely
          islamic
          > manor. But i feel your suggested program of study shouldn't
          exclude
          > the learning of other faiths also. As a christian i find it hard
          to
          > understand a muslims prespectives on the world as i recieved no
          > information on the subject while growing up. If we learn about
          each
          > others religion we will understand each others prespectives better.
          >
          > At the end of the day in arabic countries the word christians use
          for
          > god is allah just as in islam, which shows we are worshiping the
          same
          > god but have different understandings of how to do it.
          >
          > On a side note sport is very important as healthy body = healthy
          mind.
          >
          > Respect.
          >
        • David Leon
          Izzet, It is interesting to me how I agree with some of your views on humanity.. even though I do not know what you think about the after life and things
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 7, 2006
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            Izzet,
             
            It is interesting to me how I agree with some of your views on humanity.. even though I do not know what you think about the "after life" and things like that.. related to your views. But, I just wanted to say that to you, right now.
             
            blessings,
            Dave

            izzetonal_mba <izzetonal_mba@...> wrote:
            Hi Steve,
            thanks for sharing your kind opinions.
            Yes, you are right, in my message I copied before, I did not mention
            about other's (non-muslims') world-view or beliefs in the education
            of my child or the children in general, although I believe it should
            be included.
            But, I confess that I did not completed what should be in my mind as
            a sound and true way for learning and reaching to truth. Because,
            English is not my native language and I have not yet submit my
            request to other english-spoken world.
            Actually, in my project, i.e. Quran University, all students will
            meet and learn almost all main religions, ideologies, life-styles,
            non-religious and even -to some-ridicilous trends of the current
            world. This education will be given to the students when they are
            about 16-18 year old (in the final stage of the main education
            program). AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING in my education system is
            that: All the students of Qur'an University will learn these other
            religions or ideologies or life styles or trends BY THE
            REPRESENTATIVES OF EACH RELIGION OR IDEOLOGIES. No muslim teacher
            will come and teach something about christianity or anarchist
            christianity or catholic or ortodox or protestan or evangelism or
            Judaism or hinduism or budism or marxizm or humanizm or liberalism
            or capitalism or existantialism or hedonizm....etc. etc. Because,
            the only aim of this students is to UNDERSTAND the TRUTH TRUELY.

            Actually, yes u are right since I had written in my posting that all
            teacher should be muslim. But, actually as I said the only exception
            about the teachers is that. anything other than islam, should be
            submitten by non-muslims. since this is most fair to reach the truth.

            Almost more than a year, I tried and tried and tried to reach almost
            ALL known persons and organizations both muslims and non muslims in
            Turkey including the Prime Minister, president, Director of
            Religious Affairs, all media members, TV stations, newspapers,
            radios, columnists, religious NGO's...etc. etc. BUT BELIEVE ME,
            NOBODY (can you believe this?) INTERESTED. BUT I DID NOT GIVE UP MY
            STRUGGLE. AND I WILL GO WHEREEVER IT GOES...SINCE I AM HUMAN AND I
            AM STRUGGLING AND STRIVING FOR THE HONOUR OF HUMAN BEING. WE ARE
            FREE AND I REJECT ALL THE EDUCATIONAL COLONIZATION AND SLAVERY. I AM
            ALSO NON-VIOLENT ONE BUT I DO NOT WANT TO BE DECEIVED BY ANYONE
            WHOEVER IT IS WHETHER IT IS SO CALLED MUSLIM ORGANIZATIONS OR STATES
            OR ANYTHING...
            I born free...God gives me whatever I need and these are enough for
            me to be thankful to God and we are not animals to be educated like
            animals...

            and I prepared a blog in Turkish about Quran University. If you go
            there, you may understand from the pictures I put there. Silent
            Scream, Lost Paradise...

            http://www.blogcu.com/kuranuniversitesi

            3 of my brainstorming proposals explaining almost all topics comes
            to the mind about the Project exist there as well as some of my
            BASIC beliefs about WHO IS ALLAH? WHAT IS QUR'AN? AND WHAT IS THE
            OTHER LIFE? derived from the Qur'an without comment.
            And if I can, I will prepare this project by ENGLISH and ARABIC as
            soon as I can. And then I want to share with you also the whole
            project.

            Although I am the only one person walking alone for a long time, I
            am optimistic. ALWAYS OPTIMISTIC. SINCE, I, BY MYSELF, BELIEVE THE
            POWER AND MERCY OF GOD.

            I am  hugged by the darkest night,
            I am absolutely alone,
            Suns arising somewhere at away,
            I KNOW...

            I am the branch of a dry tree,
            I am absolutely alone,
            somethings sending out roots somewhere at away,
            I SEE...

            neither a voice nor a breath on my cracked lip,
            songs are singed somewere at away,
            I HEAR...

            I AM THANKFUL TO ALLAH WHO IS THE SOURCE OF TRUTH...WHO GAVE US
            EVERYTHING WE NEED, PRIMARILY SOUL AND MIND AND HEART AND EARS AND
            EYES ETC.

            take care of u all,
            your brother izzet.


            --- In Lost_Religion_of_Jesus@yahoogroups.com, "Steve"
            <steve.khateri@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello.
            >
            > Your post was verry interesting and while i appreciate your love
            for
            > your children makes you want them to be brought up in a purely
            islamic
            > manor. But i feel your suggested program of study shouldn't
            exclude
            > the learning of other faiths also. As a christian i find it hard
            to
            > understand a muslims prespectives on the world as i recieved no
            > information on the subject while growing up. If we learn about
            each
            > others religion we will understand each others prespectives better.
            >
            > At the end of the day in arabic countries the word christians use
            for
            > god is allah just as in islam, which shows we are worshiping the
            same
            > god but have different understandings of how to do it.
            >
            > On a side note sport is very important as healthy body = healthy
            mind.
            >
            > Respect.
            >





            Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

          • izzetonal_mba
            Hi Dave, thanks for your sharing your impressions with me. yes brother, it is a long road and we dont know if there is some other interesting thing in front
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 8, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Dave,
              thanks for your sharing your impressions with me. yes brother, it is
              a long road and we dont know if there is some other interesting
              thing in front us.
              brothers!
              CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT I HAVE WRITTEN SOME - to me, very good lol-
              THINGS ABOUT THE LAST DAY OF THE WORLD, HERE AFTER, PARADISE, HELL
              AND THE CORE BELIEF OF ALL MESSENGERS -in relation with those who
              may be forgiven at the end even though he commits the worst action
              in the history except for accepting this core belief...etc-
              AND ALL MY WRITINGS HAD GONE? I don't know how but SUDDENLY
              SOMETHING HAPPENED and ALL MY WRITINGS GONE AND THE PAGE OF BABYLON
              TRANSLATION PAGE OPENED ETC.
              It is the ANOTHER INTERESTING thing I've JUST SHOCKED dear Dave. I
              hope I write to you later or send to you my studies including these
              issues after I finish their translations.


              note (PS): can anyone of you give me a sound picture of what you are
              believing in (like the wellcome message) wider and wholely? I think
              you seems the true christians (let me say at least the christians
              from my perspective of understanding Quran and what I understand
              from islam)
              take care my lost brothers and sisters (I think you all male)

              izzet

              --- In Lost_Religion_of_Jesus@yahoogroups.com, David Leon
              <crankspl@...> wrote:
              >
              > Izzet,
              >
              > It is interesting to me how I agree with some of your views on
              humanity.. even though I do not know what you think about the "after
              life" and things like that.. related to your views. But, I just
              wanted to say that to you, right now.
              >
              > blessings,
              > Dave
              >
              > izzetonal_mba <izzetonal_mba@...> wrote:
              > Hi Steve,
              > thanks for sharing your kind opinions.
              > Yes, you are right, in my message I copied before, I did not
              mention
              > about other's (non-muslims') world-view or beliefs in the
              education
              > of my child or the children in general, although I believe it
              should
              > be included.
              > But, I confess that I did not completed what should be in my mind
              as
              > a sound and true way for learning and reaching to truth. Because,
              > English is not my native language and I have not yet submit my
              > request to other english-spoken world.
              > Actually, in my project, i.e. Quran University, all students will
              > meet and learn almost all main religions, ideologies, life-styles,
              > non-religious and even -to some-ridicilous trends of the current
              > world. This education will be given to the students when they are
              > about 16-18 year old (in the final stage of the main education
              > program). AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING in my education system is
              > that: All the students of Qur'an University will learn these other
              > religions or ideologies or life styles or trends BY THE
              > REPRESENTATIVES OF EACH RELIGION OR IDEOLOGIES. No muslim teacher
              > will come and teach something about christianity or anarchist
              > christianity or catholic or ortodox or protestan or evangelism or
              > Judaism or hinduism or budism or marxizm or humanizm or liberalism
              > or capitalism or existantialism or hedonizm....etc. etc. Because,
              > the only aim of this students is to UNDERSTAND the TRUTH TRUELY.
              >
              > Actually, yes u are right since I had written in my posting that
              all
              > teacher should be muslim. But, actually as I said the only
              exception
              > about the teachers is that. anything other than islam, should be
              > submitten by non-muslims. since this is most fair to reach the
              truth.
              >
              > Almost more than a year, I tried and tried and tried to reach
              almost
              > ALL known persons and organizations both muslims and non muslims
              in
              > Turkey including the Prime Minister, president, Director of
              > Religious Affairs, all media members, TV stations, newspapers,
              > radios, columnists, religious NGO's...etc. etc. BUT BELIEVE ME,
              > NOBODY (can you believe this?) INTERESTED. BUT I DID NOT GIVE UP
              MY
              > STRUGGLE. AND I WILL GO WHEREEVER IT GOES...SINCE I AM HUMAN AND I
              > AM STRUGGLING AND STRIVING FOR THE HONOUR OF HUMAN BEING. WE ARE
              > FREE AND I REJECT ALL THE EDUCATIONAL COLONIZATION AND SLAVERY. I
              AM
              > ALSO NON-VIOLENT ONE BUT I DO NOT WANT TO BE DECEIVED BY ANYONE
              > WHOEVER IT IS WHETHER IT IS SO CALLED MUSLIM ORGANIZATIONS OR
              STATES
              > OR ANYTHING...
              > I born free...God gives me whatever I need and these are enough
              for
              > me to be thankful to God and we are not animals to be educated
              like
              > animals...
              >
              > and I prepared a blog in Turkish about Quran University. If you go
              > there, you may understand from the pictures I put there. Silent
              > Scream, Lost Paradise...
              >
              > http://www.blogcu.com/kuranuniversitesi
              >
              > 3 of my brainstorming proposals explaining almost all topics comes
              > to the mind about the Project exist there as well as some of my
              > BASIC beliefs about WHO IS ALLAH? WHAT IS QUR'AN? AND WHAT IS THE
              > OTHER LIFE? derived from the Qur'an without comment.
              > And if I can, I will prepare this project by ENGLISH and ARABIC as
              > soon as I can. And then I want to share with you also the whole
              > project.
              >
              > Although I am the only one person walking alone for a long time, I
              > am optimistic. ALWAYS OPTIMISTIC. SINCE, I, BY MYSELF, BELIEVE THE
              > POWER AND MERCY OF GOD.
              >
              > I am hugged by the darkest night,
              > I am absolutely alone,
              > Suns arising somewhere at away,
              > I KNOW...
              >
              > I am the branch of a dry tree,
              > I am absolutely alone,
              > somethings sending out roots somewhere at away,
              > I SEE...
              >
              > neither a voice nor a breath on my cracked lip,
              > songs are singed somewere at away,
              > I HEAR...
              >
              > I AM THANKFUL TO ALLAH WHO IS THE SOURCE OF TRUTH...WHO GAVE US
              > EVERYTHING WE NEED, PRIMARILY SOUL AND MIND AND HEART AND EARS AND
              > EYES ETC.
              >
              > take care of u all,
              > your brother izzet.
              >
              >
              > --- In Lost_Religion_of_Jesus@yahoogroups.com, "Steve"
              > <steve.khateri@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hello.
              > >
              > > Your post was verry interesting and while i appreciate your love
              > for
              > > your children makes you want them to be brought up in a purely
              > islamic
              > > manor. But i feel your suggested program of study shouldn't
              > exclude
              > > the learning of other faiths also. As a christian i find it hard
              > to
              > > understand a muslims prespectives on the world as i recieved no
              > > information on the subject while growing up. If we learn about
              > each
              > > others religion we will understand each others prespectives
              better.
              > >
              > > At the end of the day in arabic countries the word christians
              use
              > for
              > > god is allah just as in islam, which shows we are worshiping the
              > same
              > > god but have different understandings of how to do it.
              > >
              > > On a side note sport is very important as healthy body = healthy
              > mind.
              > >
              > > Respect.
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.
              Great rates starting at 1¢/min.
              >
            • Steve
              Alrite Izzet. Hope all is well. My personal belief is that Jesus is the son of god and was perfect and without sin. I believe he died and rose again to life so
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 9, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Alrite Izzet. Hope all is well.

                My personal belief is that Jesus is the son of god and was perfect
                and without sin. I believe he died and rose again to life so that
                all who ask god for forgiveness for their sinful nature will recieve
                it. I'm not naive enough to claim to have all the answers to lifes
                riddles but this is the basic premis to which i live my life.

                The most important aspect of my belief is LOVE if we love each other
                all things can be overcome, i don't make distinctions i try to be
                kind to everyone equely.

                Jesus said 'he who gives a child a glass of water in my name will
                not go without his reward' and he made clear the most important
                things in life are helping each other in times of need.

                As for islam, jesus said 'in my mansion there are many rooms'. And
                although i know little about the teachings of Mohammed i apreciate
                he may well be a prophet from god as ones who have come before, but
                i don't know, and it would make no difference to by core beliefs if
                he was as my beliefs are based totaly on love.


                Regards Steve.
              • izzetonal_mba
                Hi Steve, respect for your personal ideas. But, it seems to me that you are not anarchist christian. are you? by the way, who are the anarchist christians
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 9, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Steve,
                  respect for your personal ideas. But, it seems to me that you are
                  not anarchist christian. are you?
                  by the way, who are the anarchist christians among you my dear
                  brothers and sisters? And can you give me your MAIN beliefs on that
                  like the ones in welcome message. As far as I understand, your Jesus
                  perception is not the same of those who worship to Him as the god.
                  and your "anarchism" is the key for me in a sense of believing in
                  only one god like the same god of Quran. and the non-violent and to
                  be merciful characteristics also clearly mentioned as the
                  outstanding features of the christians praised in Quran. To me, if
                  you (let me say anarchist christians) believe in the only one God (I
                  think current christians call Him as the Father) like the only one
                  God (Allah) of Quran, still you are praised as the roadrunners of
                  the Paradise in case you make good deeds....
                  this is long story but at least I want to learn your OWN ideas about
                  such things and the anarchist christianism.
                  take care of u all
                  izzet
                  --- In Lost_Religion_of_Jesus@yahoogroups.com, "Steve"
                  <steve.khateri@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Alrite Izzet. Hope all is well.
                  >
                  > My personal belief is that Jesus is the son of god and was perfect
                  > and without sin. I believe he died and rose again to life so that
                  > all who ask god for forgiveness for their sinful nature will
                  recieve
                  > it. I'm not naive enough to claim to have all the answers to lifes
                  > riddles but this is the basic premis to which i live my life.
                  >
                  > The most important aspect of my belief is LOVE if we love each
                  other
                  > all things can be overcome, i don't make distinctions i try to be
                  > kind to everyone equely.
                  >
                  > Jesus said 'he who gives a child a glass of water in my name will
                  > not go without his reward' and he made clear the most important
                  > things in life are helping each other in times of need.
                  >
                  > As for islam, jesus said 'in my mansion there are many rooms'. And
                  > although i know little about the teachings of Mohammed i apreciate
                  > he may well be a prophet from god as ones who have come before,
                  but
                  > i don't know, and it would make no difference to by core beliefs
                  if
                  > he was as my beliefs are based totaly on love.
                  >
                  >
                  > Regards Steve.
                  >
                • Steve
                  Hi Izzet. While i don t agree with all the statements on the home page i do consider myself a christian anarchist as i am only bound by the word of god and
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 10, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Izzet. While i don't agree with all the statements on the home page
                    i do consider myself a christian anarchist as i am only bound by the
                    word of god and know that national laws have no power over me.

                    Anarchism = lawlessness. I believe Jesus lived and died to free us
                    from all laws.

                    Regards. Steve.
                  • David Leon
                    Izzet, all, Yes, I think you will find a little variety among the views of the people here. We may not all agree with every statement on the group s home
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 11, 2006
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                      Izzet, all,
                       
                      Yes, I think you will find a little variety among the views of the people here. We may not all "agree" with every statement on the group's home page. I suppose it's the attitude that the teachings of Jesus have been largely clouded or suppressed that makes us support the "lost religion of Jesus" idea.
                       
                      Speaking for myself, thus far in my life, I tend to be almost atheistic in my beliefs about an afterlife and the nature of god. I more or less think of god as something figurative, not "literal." Though theology can be powerful intellectually, I actually do not think of god as someone to be served. I think of him as that more philosophical-sounding "essence" that makes us question ourselves to the core, because we always have to wonder "what is god?" or "how can it be described?" etc.
                       
                      I do not take "heaven" or "hell" literally. I think them to be representative of struggles that can take place in our thinking. I do not believe there to be a "mind" that is literally apart from body. I do not believe in an essence that survives after we "die." So, on those points, it would appear that I disagree with Paul in the christian writings, and others perhaps. But I think there is an openess to christianity, but particularly to Jesus teachings as we are able to barely understand them or piece them together at least. And I think that that openess truly allows me to question what can be meant by christian thought...not just accepting a tradition from one man, teacher, or 'prophet' but reinterpreting...bettering the message for my own critical mind and for my own modern world.
                       
                      I hope that makes some sense..
                       
                      Yes, I am more or less an anarchist. I do not believe in hierarchies or "rules." I study the theoretical origins of "rules" in both religion and other society, instead of just accepting or "believing" the rules..  I think rules are not "divine" really..do not come from God so to speak.. but have practical, human origins, and thus are very much able to be bettered...and therefore also able to be "destroyed" in the sense of holding them over ourselves as if we have to follow some laws outside of our own understanding (which is impossible to do, therefore it is 'ungodly'). It is impossible to "do" something you do not understand. Yet, human laws would have us believe to this day that it is not impossible, and that is must be done, and that there are "divine" or "higher" reasons for following rules, even when we do not "understand" them....
                       
                      that's hogwash.  so..what I just said is probably the simplest philosophy of the 'anarchist'..the most realistic and meaningful anarchist philosophy that I know of myself. and i think Jesus was theoretically, at least in his own context, either speaking of that philosophy, or 'spirtually' headed toward that type of philosophy in his own thinking and actions....
                       
                      peace,
                      Dave
                       


                      izzetonal_mba <izzetonal_mba@...> wrote:
                      Hi Steve,
                      respect for your personal ideas. But, it seems to me that you are
                      not anarchist christian. are you?
                      by the way, who are the anarchist christians among you my dear
                      brothers and sisters? And can you give me your MAIN beliefs on that
                      like the ones in welcome message. As far as I understand, your Jesus
                      perception is not the same of those who worship to Him as the god.
                      and your "anarchism" is the key for me in a sense of believing in
                      only one god like the same god of Quran. and the non-violent and to
                      be merciful characteristics also clearly mentioned as the
                      outstanding features of the christians praised in Quran. To me, if
                      you (let me say anarchist christians) believe in the only one God (I
                      think current christians call Him as the Father) like the only one
                      God (Allah) of Quran, still you are praised as the roadrunners of
                      the Paradise in case you make good deeds....
                      this is long story but at least I want to learn your OWN ideas about
                      such things and the anarchist christianism.
                      take care of u all
                      izzet


                      Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

                    • David Leon
                      Izzet, Where did you have these writings? Were they on this group, or on some other website? And you say they disappeared? Also, I think there are at least 2
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 11, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Izzet,
                         
                        Where did you have these writings?
                        Were they on this group, or on some other website?
                        And you say they disappeared?
                         
                        Also, I think there are at least 2 females that you have probably seen writing on this group lately..
                         
                        blessings,
                        Dave


                        izzetonal_mba <izzetonal_mba@...> wrote:
                        Hi Dave,
                        thanks for your sharing your impressions with me. yes brother, it is
                        a long road and we dont know if there is some other interesting
                        thing in front us.
                        brothers!
                        CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT I HAVE WRITTEN SOME - to me, very good lol-
                        THINGS ABOUT THE LAST DAY OF THE WORLD, HERE AFTER, PARADISE, HELL
                        AND THE CORE BELIEF OF ALL MESSENGERS -in relation with those who
                        may be forgiven at the end even though he commits the worst action
                        in the history except for accepting this core belief...etc-
                        AND ALL MY WRITINGS HAD GONE? I don't know how but SUDDENLY
                        SOMETHING HAPPENED and ALL MY WRITINGS GONE AND THE PAGE OF BABYLON
                        TRANSLATION PAGE OPENED ETC.
                        It is the ANOTHER INTERESTING thing I've JUST SHOCKED dear Dave. I
                        hope I write to you later or send to you my studies including these
                        issues after I finish their translations.


                        note (PS): can anyone of you give me a sound picture of what you are
                        believing in (like the wellcome message) wider and wholely? I think
                        you seems the true christians (let me say at least the christians
                        from my perspective of understanding Quran and what I understand
                        from islam)
                        take care my lost brothers and sisters (I think you all male)

                        izzet

                        --- In Lost_Religion_of_Jesus@yahoogroups.com, David Leon
                        <crankspl@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Izzet,
                        >   
                        >   It is interesting to me how I agree with some of your views on
                        humanity.. even though I do not know what you think about the "after
                        life" and things like that.. related to your views. But, I just
                        wanted to say that to you, right now.
                        >   
                        >   blessings,
                        >   Dave
                        >
                        > izzetonal_mba <izzetonal_mba@...> wrote:
                        >   Hi Steve,
                        > thanks for sharing your kind opinions.
                        > Yes, you are right, in my message I copied before, I did not
                        mention
                        > about other's (non-muslims') world-view or beliefs in the
                        education
                        > of my child or the children in general, although I believe it
                        should
                        > be included.
                        > But, I confess that I did not completed what should be in my mind
                        as
                        > a sound and true way for learning and reaching to truth. Because,
                        > English is not my native language and I have not yet submit my
                        > request to other english-spoken world.
                        > Actually, in my project, i.e. Quran University, all students will
                        > meet and learn almost all main religions, ideologies, life-styles,
                        > non-religious and even -to some-ridicilous trends of the current
                        > world. This education will be given to the students when they are
                        > about 16-18 year old (in the final stage of the main education
                        > program). AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING in my education system is
                        > that: All the students of Qur'an University will learn these other
                        > religions or ideologies or life styles or trends BY THE
                        > REPRESENTATIVES OF EACH RELIGION OR IDEOLOGIES. No muslim teacher
                        > will come and teach something about christianity or anarchist
                        > christianity or catholic or ortodox or protestan or evangelism or
                        > Judaism or hinduism or budism or marxizm or humanizm or liberalism
                        > or capitalism or existantialism or hedonizm....etc. etc. Because,
                        > the only aim of this students is to UNDERSTAND the TRUTH TRUELY.
                        >
                        > Actually, yes u are right since I had written in my posting that
                        all
                        > teacher should be muslim. But, actually as I said the only
                        exception
                        > about the teachers is that. anything other than islam, should be
                        > submitten by non-muslims. since this is most fair to reach the
                        truth.
                        >
                        > Almost more than a year, I tried and tried and tried to reach
                        almost
                        > ALL known persons and organizations both muslims and non muslims
                        in
                        > Turkey including the Prime Minister, president, Director of
                        > Religious Affairs, all media members, TV stations, newspapers,
                        > radios, columnists, religious NGO's...etc. etc. BUT BELIEVE ME,
                        > NOBODY (can you believe this?) INTERESTED. BUT I DID NOT GIVE UP
                        MY
                        > STRUGGLE. AND I WILL GO WHEREEVER IT GOES...SINCE I AM HUMAN AND I
                        > AM STRUGGLING AND STRIVING FOR THE HONOUR OF HUMAN BEING. WE ARE
                        > FREE AND I REJECT ALL THE EDUCATIONAL COLONIZATION AND SLAVERY. I
                        AM
                        > ALSO NON-VIOLENT ONE BUT I DO NOT WANT TO BE DECEIVED BY ANYONE
                        > WHOEVER IT IS WHETHER IT IS SO CALLED MUSLIM ORGANIZATIONS OR
                        STATES
                        > OR ANYTHING...
                        > I born free...God gives me whatever I need and these are enough
                        for
                        > me to be thankful to God and we are not animals to be educated
                        like
                        > animals...
                        >
                        > and I prepared a blog in Turkish about Quran University. If you go
                        > there, you may understand from the pictures I put there. Silent
                        > Scream, Lost Paradise...
                        >
                        > http://www.blogcu.com/kuranuniversitesi
                        >
                        > 3 of my brainstorming proposals explaining almost all topics comes
                        > to the mind about the Project exist there as well as some of my
                        > BASIC beliefs about WHO IS ALLAH? WHAT IS QUR'AN? AND WHAT IS THE
                        > OTHER LIFE? derived from the Qur'an without comment.
                        > And if I can, I will prepare this project by ENGLISH and ARABIC as
                        > soon as I can. And then I want to share with you also the whole
                        > project.
                        >
                        > Although I am the only one person walking alone for a long time, I
                        > am optimistic. ALWAYS OPTIMISTIC. SINCE, I, BY MYSELF, BELIEVE THE
                        > POWER AND MERCY OF GOD.
                        >
                        > I am  hugged by the darkest night,
                        > I am absolutely alone,
                        > Suns arising somewhere at away,
                        > I KNOW...
                        >
                        > I am the branch of a dry tree,
                        > I am absolutely alone,
                        > somethings sending out roots somewhere at away,
                        > I SEE...
                        >
                        > neither a voice nor a breath on my cracked lip,
                        > songs are singed somewere at away,
                        > I HEAR...
                        >
                        > I AM THANKFUL TO ALLAH WHO IS THE SOURCE OF TRUTH...WHO GAVE US
                        > EVERYTHING WE NEED, PRIMARILY SOUL AND MIND AND HEART AND EARS AND
                        > EYES ETC.
                        >
                        > take care of u all,
                        > your brother izzet.
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In Lost_Religion_of_Jesus@yahoogroups.com, "Steve"
                        > <steve.khateri@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hello.
                        > >
                        > > Your post was verry interesting and while i appreciate your love
                        > for
                        > > your children makes you want them to be brought up in a purely
                        > islamic
                        > > manor. But i feel your suggested program of study shouldn't
                        > exclude
                        > > the learning of other faiths also. As a christian i find it hard
                        > to
                        > > understand a muslims prespectives on the world as i recieved no
                        > > information on the subject while growing up. If we learn about
                        > each
                        > > others religion we will understand each others prespectives
                        better.
                        > >
                        > > At the end of the day in arabic countries the word christians
                        use
                        > for
                        > > god is allah just as in islam, which shows we are worshiping the
                        > same
                        > > god but have different understandings of how to do it.
                        > >
                        > > On a side note sport is very important as healthy body = healthy
                        > mind.
                        > >
                        > > Respect.
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >            
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. 
                        Great rates starting at 1&cent;/min.
                        >







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                      • Matt Sweeney
                        ... Izzet, I think the thing you have to realize when discussing anarchism with Americans is that the word has taken on so many different meanings over the
                        Message 11 of 13 , Apr 11, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          On 4/9/06, izzetonal_mba <izzetonal_mba@...> wrote:
                          > Hi Steve,
                          > respect for your personal ideas. But, it seems to me that you are
                          > not anarchist christian. are you?

                          Izzet, I think the thing you have to realize when discussing anarchism
                          with Americans is that the word has taken on so many different
                          meanings over the last 50 years that discussions about what is
                          anarchism are largely pointless.

                          Part of this evolution for the term comes from the cross pollination
                          between anarchism, classic liberalism, and libertarianism that has
                          been going on for the past 50 years or so. Part of it has also come
                          from a realization that occurred to marketing execs and the powers
                          that be over the past 50 years. This realization revolves around the
                          inevitability of youthful rebellion with in American society and that
                          by making sure that the youth are allowed to indulge in their
                          rebellious tendencies with out ever actually coming into contact with
                          real revolutionary ideas that will most likely out grow these
                          tendencies and become 'productive' members of society.

                          Putting aside the second reason for the evolution of this term, the
                          cross pollination between anarchism, classic liberalism, and
                          libertarianism has in itself made the term all but useless. I've
                          known a few "anarchists" who have dropped the term all together, in
                          favor of the older phrase, 'social liberalism.' There are also other
                          examples, such as the noted writer Noam Chomsky, who have jettisoned
                          the term without bothering to replace it at all. These people tend to
                          point to the inherent problems that arise when individuals redefine
                          terms and then seek to impose their definitions on you.

                          Personally, my beliefs tend to be varied depending on the subject
                          being discussed. I'm a fervent believer in the concept of democracy
                          and the necessary compromise between opposing ideas that is required
                          in making democracy work. I don't believe that adopting any specific
                          political ideology (liberal or conservative) across the board will
                          lead to any kind of utopia and that it is only through compromise
                          between these various political ideologies that things can work.

                          A quote from the American punk band The Dead Kennedy's has been a
                          reoccurring theme in this area of my life, 'how many liberators, are
                          secretly dictators.'

                          With the above in mind, politically, I tend toward classic
                          liberalism/libertarianism, though socially I am more traditionally
                          liberal (those with excess, should support those who are in need). I
                          tend to self identify as simply a liberal anti-authoritarian and leave
                          it at that.

                          For an example of a view of anarchism that diverges from the
                          traditional ideas of anarchism (what I've heard some people refer to
                          as post-anarchism) you may be interested in the writer Hakim Bey.

                          http://www.hermetic.com/bey/

                          Hakim Bey is the pen name of the American writer Peter Lamborn Wilson,
                          who spent most of the 70s in Iran. And who's work is influenced by
                          various Islamic sects.

                          Matt

                          --
                          Matt Sweeney
                          mattwsweeney@...
                          http://www.tsuibhne.net/
                        • izzet mba
                          Hi Dave, it disappeared suddenly while I was coming to write the last word of the long sentences after about two hours. lol, wait my new world communication
                          Message 12 of 13 , Apr 13, 2006
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                            Hi Dave,
                            it disappeared suddenly while I was coming to write the last word of the long sentences after about two hours. lol, wait my new world communication theory by Qur'an University since I hate this computer technology despite of the fact that I am using it because of no alternative. joking... thanks for Bill.

                            take care
                            izzet
                            David Leon <crankspl@...> wrote:
                            Izzet,
                             
                            Where did you have these writings?
                            Were they on this group, or on some other website?
                            And you say they disappeared?
                             
                            Also, I think there are at least 2 females that you have probably seen writing on this group lately..
                             
                            blessings,
                            Dave


                            izzetonal_mba <izzetonal_mba@...> wrote:
                            Hi Dave,
                            thanks for your sharing your impressions with me. yes brother, it is
                            a long road and we dont know if there is some other interesting
                            thing in front us.
                            brothers!
                            CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT I HAVE WRITTEN SOME - to me, very good lol-
                            THINGS ABOUT THE LAST DAY OF THE WORLD, HERE AFTER, PARADISE, HELL
                            AND THE CORE BELIEF OF ALL MESSENGERS -in relation with those who
                            may be forgiven at the end even though he commits the worst action
                            in the history except for accepting this core belief...etc-
                            AND ALL MY WRITINGS HAD GONE? I don't know how but SUDDENLY
                            SOMETHING HAPPENED and ALL MY WRITINGS GONE AND THE PAGE OF BABYLON
                            TRANSLATION PAGE OPENED ETC.
                            It is the ANOTHER INTERESTING thing I've JUST SHOCKED dear Dave. I
                            hope I write to you later or send to you my studies including these
                            issues after I finish their translations.


                            note (PS): can anyone of you give me a sound picture of what you are
                            believing in (like the wellcome message) wider and wholely? I think
                            you seems the true christians (let me say at least the christians
                            from my perspective of understanding Quran and what I understand
                            from islam)
                            take care my lost brothers and sisters (I think you all male)

                            izzet

                            --- In Lost_Religion_of_Jesus@yahoogroups.com, David Leon
                            <crankspl@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Izzet,
                            >   
                            >   It is interesting to me how I agree with some of your views on
                            humanity.. even though I do not know what you think about the "after
                            life" and things like that.. related to your views. But, I just
                            wanted to say that to you, right now.
                            >   
                            >   blessings,
                            >   Dave
                            >
                            > izzetonal_mba <izzetonal_mba@...> wrote:
                            >   Hi Steve,
                            > thanks for sharing your kind opinions.
                            > Yes, you are right, in my message I copied before, I did not
                            mention
                            > about other's (non-muslims') world-view or beliefs in the
                            education
                            > of my child or the children in general, although I believe it
                            should
                            > be included.
                            > But, I confess that I did not completed what should be in my mind
                            as
                            > a sound and true way for learning and reaching to truth. Because,
                            > English is not my native language and I have not yet submit my
                            > request to other english-spoken world.
                            > Actually, in my project, i.e. Quran University, all students will
                            > meet and learn almost all main religions, ideologies, life-styles,
                            > non-religious and even -to some-ridicilous trends of the current
                            > world. This education will be given to the students when they are
                            > about 16-18 year old (in the final stage of the main education
                            > program). AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING in my education system is
                            > that: All the students of Qur'an University will learn these other
                            > religions or ideologies or life styles or trends BY THE
                            > REPRESENTATIVES OF EACH RELIGION OR IDEOLOGIES. No muslim teacher
                            > will come and teach something about christianity or anarchist
                            > christianity or catholic or ortodox or protestan or evangelism or
                            > Judaism or hinduism or budism or marxizm or humanizm or liberalism
                            > or capitalism or existantialism or hedonizm....etc. etc. Because,
                            > the only aim of this students is to UNDERSTAND the TRUTH TRUELY.
                            >
                            > Actually, yes u are right since I had written in my posting that
                            all
                            > teacher should be muslim. But, actually as I said the only
                            exception
                            > about the teachers is that. anything other than islam, should be
                            > submitten by non-muslims. since this is most fair to reach the
                            truth.
                            >
                            > Almost more than a year, I tried and tried and tried to reach
                            almost
                            > ALL known persons and organizations both muslims and non muslims
                            in
                            > Turkey including the Prime Minister, president, Director of
                            > Religious Affairs, all media members, TV stations, newspapers,
                            > radios, columnists, religious NGO's...etc. etc. BUT BELIEVE ME,
                            > NOBODY (can you believe this?) INTERESTED. BUT I DID NOT GIVE UP
                            MY
                            > STRUGGLE. AND I WILL GO WHEREEVER IT GOES...SINCE I AM HUMAN AND I
                            > AM STRUGGLING AND STRIVING FOR THE HONOUR OF HUMAN BEING. WE ARE
                            > FREE AND I REJECT ALL THE EDUCATIONAL COLONIZATION AND SLAVERY. I
                            AM
                            > ALSO NON-VIOLENT ONE BUT I DO NOT WANT TO BE DECEIVED BY ANYONE
                            > WHOEVER IT IS WHETHER IT IS SO CALLED MUSLIM ORGANIZATIONS OR
                            STATES
                            > OR ANYTHING...
                            > I born free...God gives me whatever I need and these are enough
                            for
                            > me to be thankful to God and we are not animals to be educated
                            like
                            > animals...
                            >
                            > and I prepared a blog in Turkish about Quran University. If you go
                            > there, you may understand from the pictures I put there. Silent
                            > Scream, Lost Paradise...
                            >
                            > http://www.blogcu.com/kuranuniversitesi
                            >
                            > 3 of my brainstorming proposals explaining almost all topics comes
                            > to the mind about the Project exist there as well as some of my
                            > BASIC beliefs about WHO IS ALLAH? WHAT IS QUR'AN? AND WHAT IS THE
                            > OTHER LIFE? derived from the Qur'an without comment.
                            > And if I can, I will prepare this project by ENGLISH and ARABIC as
                            > soon as I can. And then I want to share with you also the whole
                            > project.
                            >
                            > Although I am the only one person walking alone for a long time, I
                            > am optimistic. ALWAYS OPTIMISTIC. SINCE, I, BY MYSELF, BELIEVE THE
                            > POWER AND MERCY OF GOD.
                            >
                            > I am  hugged by the darkest night,
                            > I am absolutely alone,
                            > Suns arising somewhere at away,
                            > I KNOW...
                            >
                            > I am the branch of a dry tree,
                            > I am absolutely alone,
                            > somethings sending out roots somewhere at away,
                            > I SEE...
                            >
                            > neither a voice nor a breath on my cracked lip,
                            > songs are singed somewere at away,
                            > I HEAR...
                            >
                            > I AM THANKFUL TO ALLAH WHO IS THE SOURCE OF TRUTH...WHO GAVE US
                            > EVERYTHING WE NEED, PRIMARILY SOUL AND MIND AND HEART AND EARS AND
                            > EYES ETC.
                            >
                            > take care of u all,
                            > your brother izzet.
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In Lost_Religion_of_Jesus@yahoogroups.com, "Steve"
                            > <steve.khateri@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hello.
                            > >
                            > > Your post was verry interesting and while i appreciate your love
                            > for
                            > > your children makes you want them to be brought up in a purely
                            > islamic
                            > > manor. But i feel your suggested program of study shouldn't
                            > exclude
                            > > the learning of other faiths also. As a christian i find it hard
                            > to
                            > > understand a muslims prespectives on the world as i recieved no
                            > > information on the subject while growing up. If we learn about
                            > each
                            > > others religion we will understand each others prespectives
                            better.
                            > >
                            > > At the end of the day in arabic countries the word christians
                            use
                            > for
                            > > god is allah just as in islam, which shows we are worshiping the
                            > same
                            > > god but have different understandings of how to do it.
                            > >
                            > > On a side note sport is very important as healthy body = healthy
                            > mind.
                            > >
                            > > Respect.
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >            
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. 
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                          • izzetonal_mba
                            Hi Matt, thanks a lot for your useful explanations:) take care izzet ... anarchism ... pollination ... come ... the ... that ... with ... other ... jettisoned
                            Message 13 of 13 , Apr 15, 2006
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                              Hi Matt,
                              thanks a lot for your useful explanations:)
                              take care
                              izzet

                              --- In Lost_Religion_of_Jesus@yahoogroups.com, "Matt Sweeney"
                              <mattwsweeney@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > On 4/9/06, izzetonal_mba <izzetonal_mba@...> wrote:
                              > > Hi Steve,
                              > > respect for your personal ideas. But, it seems to me that you are
                              > > not anarchist christian. are you?
                              >
                              > Izzet, I think the thing you have to realize when discussing
                              anarchism
                              > with Americans is that the word has taken on so many different
                              > meanings over the last 50 years that discussions about what is
                              > anarchism are largely pointless.
                              >
                              > Part of this evolution for the term comes from the cross
                              pollination
                              > between anarchism, classic liberalism, and libertarianism that has
                              > been going on for the past 50 years or so. Part of it has also
                              come
                              > from a realization that occurred to marketing execs and the powers
                              > that be over the past 50 years. This realization revolves around
                              the
                              > inevitability of youthful rebellion with in American society and
                              that
                              > by making sure that the youth are allowed to indulge in their
                              > rebellious tendencies with out ever actually coming into contact
                              with
                              > real revolutionary ideas that will most likely out grow these
                              > tendencies and become 'productive' members of society.
                              >
                              > Putting aside the second reason for the evolution of this term, the
                              > cross pollination between anarchism, classic liberalism, and
                              > libertarianism has in itself made the term all but useless. I've
                              > known a few "anarchists" who have dropped the term all together, in
                              > favor of the older phrase, 'social liberalism.' There are also
                              other
                              > examples, such as the noted writer Noam Chomsky, who have
                              jettisoned
                              > the term without bothering to replace it at all. These people
                              tend to
                              > point to the inherent problems that arise when individuals redefine
                              > terms and then seek to impose their definitions on you.
                              >
                              > Personally, my beliefs tend to be varied depending on the subject
                              > being discussed. I'm a fervent believer in the concept of
                              democracy
                              > and the necessary compromise between opposing ideas that is
                              required
                              > in making democracy work. I don't believe that adopting any
                              specific
                              > political ideology (liberal or conservative) across the board will
                              > lead to any kind of utopia and that it is only through compromise
                              > between these various political ideologies that things can work.
                              >
                              > A quote from the American punk band The Dead Kennedy's has been a
                              > reoccurring theme in this area of my life, 'how many liberators,
                              are
                              > secretly dictators.'
                              >
                              > With the above in mind, politically, I tend toward classic
                              > liberalism/libertarianism, though socially I am more traditionally
                              > liberal (those with excess, should support those who are in
                              need). I
                              > tend to self identify as simply a liberal anti-authoritarian and
                              leave
                              > it at that.
                              >
                              > For an example of a view of anarchism that diverges from the
                              > traditional ideas of anarchism (what I've heard some people refer
                              to
                              > as post-anarchism) you may be interested in the writer Hakim Bey.
                              >
                              > http://www.hermetic.com/bey/
                              >
                              > Hakim Bey is the pen name of the American writer Peter Lamborn
                              Wilson,
                              > who spent most of the 70s in Iran. And who's work is influenced by
                              > various Islamic sects.
                              >
                              > Matt
                              >
                              > --
                              > Matt Sweeney
                              > mattwsweeney@...
                              > http://www.tsuibhne.net/
                              >
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