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Re: [Living_Greyhawk] Skill question

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  • Timlagor
    It s subject to DM approval. I wouldn t allow it as a DM. * it directly contradicts the PHB rule that verbal components much be said in a loud clear voice (DC0
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 1, 2006
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      It's subject to DM approval.
      I wouldn't allow it as a DM.

      * it directly contradicts the PHB rule that verbal components much be said in a
      loud clear voice (DC0 to listen),
      * it clashes with the ASF from armour
      Buying half a rank cross-class should not offer benefits like that imo. If I
      thought it was legitimate I would spend a skill point on it for every
      spellcaster I created.


      I would feel bad about denying someone something they had built their character
      thinking they would be able to do but I still wouldn't allow it.
      I suggest you ask the people who are likely to DM you how they feel about it.



      --- Lyon Ramsey <ravensisle@...> wrote:
      ---------------------------------
      From the Races of Stone:
      You can use Sleight of Hand to cast a spell sotto vocé (mumbling) with
      your hands up your sleeves. This can be opposed by someone making a
      spot check to notice you casting or a listen check to hear you
      mumbling. Then they can make a spellcraft to know what it is you're
      casting.
      Is this usage of the skill allowed in LG? Is it allowed at 1st level
      or do you have to wait until 3rd as it is from the Races of Stone
      instead of the PHB. I need to know before I create a character for an
      intro module.




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    • Pierre van Rooden
      ... I would allow it, but I would still put the base DC of the listen check at DC 0. It says mumbling , not whispering - you must still speak audibly, it is
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 1, 2006
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        > It's subject to DM approval.
        > I wouldn't allow it as a DM.

        I would allow it, but I would still put the base DC of the listen
        check at DC 0. It says 'mumbling', not 'whispering' - you must still
        speak audibly, it is just that other people may not immediately think
        you are casting.
        "Millenium hand and shrimp!"

        Gomez
      • Russ Taylor
        You can t use a skill (that is not usable untrained) until you buy a full rank, so cross-class you d need to pay two points. Also, if you don t have more than
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 1, 2006
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          You can't use a skill (that is not usable untrained) until you buy a full
          rank, so cross-class you'd need to pay two points. Also, if you don't have
          more than a few ranks in sleight of hand, the Spot check is pretty trivial.

          Russ

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Timlagor" <timlagor@...>
          To: <Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 5:26 AM
          Subject: Re: [Living_Greyhawk] Skill question


          > It's subject to DM approval.
          > I wouldn't allow it as a DM.
          >
          > * it directly contradicts the PHB rule that verbal components much be said
          > in a
          > loud clear voice (DC0 to listen),
          > * it clashes with the ASF from armour
          > Buying half a rank cross-class should not offer benefits like that imo. If
          > I
          > thought it was legitimate I would spend a skill point on it for every
          > spellcaster I created.
          >
        • Timlagor
          With one rank my wizard could potentially get a check of 25. That s as high as I can make a spot check in broad daylight (hawk familiar) without any distance
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 1, 2006
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            With one rank my wizard could potentially get a check of 25.

            That's as high as I can make a spot check in broad daylight (hawk familiar)
            without any distance penalty.
            Spot and Spellcraft are rarely on the same class list.

            It doesn't need to work every time. My main objectin is the major clash with
            the PHB though: and the PHB is very clear about what's required in casting a
            spell.



            --- Russ Taylor <rtaylor@...> wrote:
            ---------------------------------
            You can't use a skill (that is not usable untrained) until you buy a full
            rank, so cross-class you'd need to pay two points. Also, if you don't have
            more than a few ranks in sleight of hand, the Spot check is pretty trivial.

            Russ

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Timlagor" <timlagor@...>
            To: <Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 5:26 AM
            Subject: Re: [Living_Greyhawk] Skill question


            > It's subject to DM approval.
            > I wouldn't allow it as a DM.
            >
            > * it directly contradicts the PHB rule that verbal components much be said
            > in a
            > loud clear voice (DC0 to listen),
            > * it clashes with the ASF from armour
            > Buying half a rank cross-class should not offer benefits like that imo. If
            > I
            > thought it was legitimate I would spend a skill point on it for every
            > spellcaster I created.
            >



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          • Russ Taylor
            And, by the same token, you could get a check of 6, with a DC that the town drunk could make. If you want to complain about much swing the D20 roll puts into
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 1, 2006
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              And, by the same token, you could get a check of 6, with a DC that the town
              drunk could make. If you want to complain about much swing the D20 roll puts
              into skill results, be my guest :) You might as well complain about being
              able to make a Hide check of 24, untrained.

              By all means, complain that it lets you mask spellcasting at all, but the DC
              you bring up is very much a straw man.

              Russ

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Timlagor" <timlagor@...>
              To: <Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 10:32 AM
              Subject: Re: [Living_Greyhawk] Skill question


              > With one rank my wizard could potentially get a check of 25.
              >
              > That's as high as I can make a spot check in broad daylight (hawk
              > familiar)
              > without any distance penalty.
              > Spot and Spellcraft are rarely on the same class list.
              >
              > It doesn't need to work every time. My main objectin is the major clash
              > with
              > the PHB though: and the PHB is very clear about what's required in casting
              > a
              > spell.
            • Bill Kerney
              ... the town ... roll puts ... being ... but the DC ... So you d allow it? Great, now I have to start killing every NPC I meet that s mumbling... -Bill
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 1, 2006
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                --- In Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com, "Russ Taylor" <rtaylor@...> wrote:
                >
                > And, by the same token, you could get a check of 6, with a DC that
                the town
                > drunk could make. If you want to complain about much swing the D20
                roll puts
                > into skill results, be my guest :) You might as well complain about
                being
                > able to make a Hide check of 24, untrained.
                >
                > By all means, complain that it lets you mask spellcasting at all,
                but the DC
                > you bring up is very much a straw man.

                So you'd allow it?

                Great, now I have to start killing every NPC I meet that's mumbling...

                -Bill
              • Lyon Ramsey
                Thank you all for the information, it is much appreciated. ... mumbling... ... Wait, don t you do that anyway? We almost have to in the BK. Lyon - a gamer by
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 1, 2006
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                  Thank you all for the information, it is much appreciated.

                  > So you'd allow it?
                  >
                  > Great, now I have to start killing every NPC I meet that's
                  mumbling...
                  >

                  Wait, don't you do that anyway? We almost have to in the BK.

                  Lyon - a gamer by any other name.
                  1/3
                • Brian Gilkison
                  ... Not true; the description from the Jack of All Trades feat from CV implies that as long as you have at least 1/2 rank in a skill it is considered
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 1, 2006
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                    --- Russ Taylor <rtaylor@...> wrote:

                    > You can't use a skill (that is not usable
                    > untrained) until you buy a full rank, so
                    > cross-class you'd need to pay two points.
                    > Also, if you don't have more than a few
                    > ranks in sleight of hand, the Spot check
                    > is pretty trivial.

                    Not true; the description from the 'Jack of All
                    Trades' feat from CV implies that as long as you have
                    at least 1/2 rank in a skill it is considered trained.

                    ----------
                    Jack of All Trades (CV, page 110)
                    Benefit: You can use any skill as if you had 1/2 rank
                    in that skill. This benefit allows you to attempt
                    checks with skills that normally don't allow untrained
                    skill checks (such as Decipher Script and Knowledge).
                    If a skill doesn't allow skill checks (such as Speak
                    Language), this feat has no effect.
                    ----------

                    Speak Language is, of course, the weird exception, but
                    it explicitly says (IMO), that you have to have at
                    least 1 rank to gain a new language ("You can purchase
                    Speak Language just like any other skill, but instead
                    of buying /A/ rank in it, you choose a new language
                    that you can speak.")

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                  • Brian Gilkison
                    ... Then I stand corrected. Silly me for thinking that the section labelled Untrained Skill Checks (PHB 64) would be the place to specify the 1 rank
                    Message 9 of 14 , Apr 1, 2006
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                      --- Russ Taylor <rtaylor@...> wrote:

                      > Check your PH. It trumps. Jack of All Trades
                      > lets you use a skill as trained that IF YOU
                      > HAVE THE FEAT, normal people need 1 rank to
                      > count as trained.

                      Then I stand corrected. Silly me for thinking that
                      the section labelled "Untrained Skill Checks" (PHB 64)
                      would be the place to specify the 1 rank requirement
                      (which it doesn't). ;)

                      Chalk the JOAT text up to another WotC error, I
                      guess...




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                    • Timlagor
                      I didn t bring up the DC at all; I just thought it worth responding to the claim that it was trivial . The point about DC is 25 is possible with 1 rank. The
                      Message 10 of 14 , Apr 1, 2006
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                        I didn't bring up the DC at all; I just thought it worth responding to the
                        claim that it was "trivial".

                        The point about DC is 25 is possible with 1 rank.
                        The DC 6 is still higher than no check at all which is what the PHB gives you.


                        I'm just pointing out that that isn't necessarily so -it doesn't need to be
                        100% reliable to be worth 2 skill points.



                        --- Russ Taylor <rtaylor@...> wrote:
                        ---------------------------------
                        And, by the same token, you could get a check of 6, with a DC that the town
                        drunk could make. If you want to complain about much swing the D20 roll puts
                        into skill results, be my guest :) You might as well complain about being
                        able to make a Hide check of 24, untrained.

                        By all means, complain that it lets you mask spellcasting at all, but the DC
                        you bring up is very much a straw man.

                        Russ

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Timlagor" <timlagor@...>
                        To: <Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 10:32 AM
                        Subject: Re: [Living_Greyhawk] Skill question


                        > With one rank my wizard could potentially get a check of 25.
                        >
                        > That's as high as I can make a spot check in broad daylight (hawk
                        > familiar)
                        > without any distance penalty.
                        > Spot and Spellcraft are rarely on the same class list.
                        >
                        > It doesn't need to work every time. My main objectin is the major clash
                        > with
                        > the PHB though: and the PHB is very clear about what's required in casting
                        > a
                        > spell.









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                      • Mike Lindsey
                        I would allow this as a DM. It doesn t contradict PHB spellcasting, in my view. I d also frown on someone using it every time they cast a spell, since it
                        Message 11 of 14 , Apr 1, 2006
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                          I would allow this as a DM. It doesn't contradict PHB spellcasting, in
                          my view.

                          I'd also frown on someone using it every time they cast a spell, since
                          it would slow things down.

                          The mumbling could be viewed as adding non-magical, but magical sounding
                          nonsense before and after the spell, or even during for a spell with no
                          verbal components. And if you've got your hands in big baggy sleeves,
                          that's not exactly as bad as an arcane spell failure check. Baggy
                          sleeves don't cause the same problems as gauntlets, or constricted elbow
                          and wrist movement.

                          Timlagor wrote:
                          > I didn't bring up the DC at all; I just thought it worth responding to the
                          > claim that it was "trivial".
                          >
                          > The point about DC is 25 is possible with 1 rank.
                          > The DC 6 is still higher than no check at all which is what the PHB gives you.
                          >
                          >
                          > I'm just pointing out that that isn't necessarily so -it doesn't need to be
                          > 100% reliable to be worth 2 skill points.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- Russ Taylor <rtaylor@...> wrote:
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > And, by the same token, you could get a check of 6, with a DC that the town
                          > drunk could make. If you want to complain about much swing the D20 roll puts
                          > into skill results, be my guest :) You might as well complain about being
                          > able to make a Hide check of 24, untrained.
                          >
                          > By all means, complain that it lets you mask spellcasting at all, but the DC
                          > you bring up is very much a straw man.


                          --
                          Mike Lindsey
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