Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Ruling Requested RE: Sympathy for the Baatezu COR 4-14---- Hononary Blader Favor

Expand Messages
  • aurdraco
    BK Triad hat off. Player of multiple worshippers of Kelanen hat on. If you used a dagger, then I d say no, you don t lose the Smite, as that is a legal weapon
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 1, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      BK Triad hat off. Player of multiple worshippers of Kelanen hat on.

      If you used a dagger, then I'd say no, you don't lose the Smite, as
      that is a legal weapon for clerics of Kelanen to use. Same goes for
      crossbows.

      However, if you used any other weapon, then, IMO, you should lose
      the Smite ability until you Atone. Kelanen is a very specific deity
      when it comes to tenets of his faith. If you converted to Kelanen,
      even as a non-divine spellcaster, and were granted the Smite
      ability, then it seems reasonable that you should have to follow the
      same tenets as his clergy, as you are now a special representative
      of his cult (imo, RP wise, you become a pseudo-Pious Templar). To
      not do so implies that you were merely giving lip service to the
      deity to gain a cool special ability. At the least this is poor role-
      playing and you should not earn any RP xp for the mods in which you
      use non-Kelanen approved weapons, at the worst it is ignoring role-
      playing altogether merely to get an extra bonus to hit and damage
      without suffering any RP limitations.

      The fact that you said "a fighter limited in weapon choice isn't
      worth the ability" shows, imo, that you are not role-playing your
      fighter's devotion to Kelanen's ideals of the use of swords alone
      for melee combat. If I were the same judge, I'd have said the same
      thing. Either RP being a devoted worshipper of Kelanen and enjoy the
      Smite, or don't use the Smite, imo.

      If players of Kelanites seem touchy about people abusing that Smite
      ability from a RP perspective, it's because we're aware that many
      people think that we only pick Kelanen for his excellent domain
      combination (Travel, War [any martial sword]). As such, imo, we've
      had to focus on role-playing far more to show people that our PCs
      really are that devoted. My PC, for example, in 14 levels of play
      has NEVER used any weapon other than a sword, dagger, or crossbow,
      even when it seemed that this decision might cost her her life, or
      some other PC's life.

      Casey
      aka Breeanna Windstrider, Mistress of the Hallorn Fencing Academy
      14th level Contemplative Pious Templar of Kelanen

      --- In Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <nordrin04@y...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Now that this Mod is retired:
      >
      > My fighter coverted to Kelanen as per the Mod and gained the smite
      > ablity. Months later while playing a Mod my fighter simply used a
      > weapon which was not a sword. The GM who plays a cleric of Kelanen
      > decided that was a violation of faith and I should lose my smite
      > ability. Now the discription in the LG dieties document says that
      > divine spellcasters will lose the ability if they violate this
      rule.
      > The mod gives no clarification.
      >
      >
      > How can I get an offical ruling? A fighter limited in weapon
      choice
      > isn't worth the ability.
      >
      > Thanks
      >
      > Rich
      >
    • Gary Ledford
      My ranger converted to Kelanen and gained that smite ability, but not for the smite. He is not really even a much of a swordsman-he is a monk/ranger archer who
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 1, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        My ranger converted to Kelanen and gained that smite ability, but not for the smite. He is not really even a much of a swordsman-he is a monk/ranger archer who uses a sword in situations where he needs a slashing weapon or when he is actually using a shield and wearing armor (which is when he can't hornswaggle a mage armor off an unsuspecting party wizard) .

        You are overlooking the other essential tenet of Kelanen's faith: Balance.

        Consider- my character was a lawful good, Pelor worshipping Flan ranger who found himself doing shall we say Less than Good acts, but in the name of the "greater good". For those of you who have played the series, it ended for my group with a dead wizard/ former servant of the baatezu who met his end with the point of my cold Iron long sword in his chest. I could have easily grappled him (16 str, improved grapple-it would have been no contest and the real fight was long over by then-his companions were all defeated) and turned him in to the city watch; Instead I ran him through and left him to die (I have a +9 heal mod). Not an evil act, but not something Pelor would approve of given the circumstances-I didn't have to kill him, I chose to. My character saw it as being for the greater good- an evil eradicated, even though it was the lesser of two by far and it potentially aided the greater evil (the baatezu)-again not something Pelor would approve of. My character had been slowly
        leaning towards a neutral alignment, which even he saw as the loss of his soul. He had learned there are those who must sacrifice their own innocence so that others may retain theirs, and be spared the same horrors. So when the opportunity came for the atonement he embraced it, his new alignment, and his new faith- with its most important tenet-balance. And along with that, the belief in doing whatever is necessary to preserve it.
        For my character it is the sword and what it symbolizes that he has adopted as his faith, though he is in fact a swordsman.

        Sorry that was so long, but i wanted to explain why my character converted to the lord of swords. (as you stated, his clerics often justify the roleplaying reasons for taking that awesome domain combo) For my character, the smite does virtually nothing: I have no charisma for the attack bonus and at fifth level it gives me +2 to damage once per day or adventure, or whenever (I forget). Woohoo.

        So even though I am an archer and a monk, I will keep my new faith and my powerful (lol) smite ability, though I won't use it except when wielding a sword. If I even remember to use it at all.

        To do otherwise would be bad roleplaying.




        Aurdraco <aurdrac0@...> wrote:
        BK Triad hat off. Player of multiple worshippers of Kelanen hat on.

        If you used a dagger, then I'd say no, you don't lose the Smite, as
        that is a legal weapon for clerics of Kelanen to use. Same goes for
        crossbows.

        However, if you used any other weapon, then, IMO, you should lose
        the Smite ability until you Atone. Kelanen is a very specific deity
        when it comes to tenets of his faith. If you converted to Kelanen,
        even as a non-divine spellcaster, and were granted the Smite
        ability, then it seems reasonable that you should have to follow the
        same tenets as his clergy, as you are now a special representative
        of his cult (imo, RP wise, you become a pseudo-Pious Templar). To
        not do so implies that you were merely giving lip service to the
        deity to gain a cool special ability. At the least this is poor role-
        playing and you should not earn any RP xp for the mods in which you
        use non-Kelanen approved weapons, at the worst it is ignoring role-
        playing altogether merely to get an extra bonus to hit and damage
        without suffering any RP limitations.

        The fact that you said "a fighter limited in weapon choice isn't
        worth the ability" shows, imo, that you are not role-playing your
        fighter's devotion to Kelanen's ideals of the use of swords alone
        for melee combat. If I were the same judge, I'd have said the same
        thing. Either RP being a devoted worshipper of Kelanen and enjoy the
        Smite, or don't use the Smite, imo.

        If players of Kelanites seem touchy about people abusing that Smite
        ability from a RP perspective, it's because we're aware that many
        people think that we only pick Kelanen for his excellent domain
        combination (Travel, War [any martial sword]). As such, imo, we've
        had to focus on role-playing far more to show people that our PCs
        really are that devoted. My PC, for example, in 14 levels of play
        has NEVER used any weapon other than a sword, dagger, or crossbow,
        even when it seemed that this decision might cost her her life, or
        some other PC's life.

        Casey
        aka Breeanna Windstrider, Mistress of the Hallorn Fencing Academy
        14th level Contemplative Pious Templar of Kelanen

        --- In Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <nordrin04@y...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Now that this Mod is retired:
        >
        > My fighter coverted to Kelanen as per the Mod and gained the smite
        > ablity. Months later while playing a Mod my fighter simply used a
        > weapon which was not a sword. The GM who plays a cleric of Kelanen
        > decided that was a violation of faith and I should lose my smite
        > ability. Now the discription in the LG dieties document says that
        > divine spellcasters will lose the ability if they violate this
        rule.
        > The mod gives no clarification.
        >
        >
        > How can I get an offical ruling? A fighter limited in weapon
        choice
        > isn't worth the ability.
        >
        > Thanks
        >
        > Rich
        >






        ---------------------------------
        YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


        Visit your group "Living_Greyhawk" on the web.

        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        Living_Greyhawk-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


        ---------------------------------







        ---------------------------------
        Yahoo! Shopping
        Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Sean
        ... Well no wonder you find it to be worthless, you are trying to use smite evil not smite. Smite as per the domain ability is a +4 to hit and then (for an
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 2, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          > Sorry that was so long, but i wanted to explain
          > why my character converted to the lord of swords.
          > (as you stated, his clerics often justify the
          > roleplaying reasons for taking that awesome domain
          > combo) For my character, the smite does virtually
          > nothing: I have no charisma for the attack bonus and
          > at fifth level it gives me +2 to damage once per day
          > or adventure, or whenever (I forget). Woohoo.
          >
          > So even though I am an archer and a monk, I will
          > keep my new faith and my powerful (lol) smite
          > ability, though I won't use it except when wielding
          > a sword. If I even remember to use it at all.
          >
          > To do otherwise would be bad roleplaying.
          >

          Well no wonder you find it to be worthless, you are
          trying to use smite evil not smite. Smite as per the
          domain ability is a +4 to hit and then (for an
          honorary blader) +CL-3 for damage. That can actually
          make a bit of a difference. And also for the people
          who like to whine about someone using it with
          something other than a sword, re-read the AR and tell
          me where it says you have to use a sword...cause it
          doesn't and just because someone uses it as a cheese
          thing doesn't give the DM the right to nerf it when
          the rules don't back him. I would have argued quite a
          bit with the GM on that since it is an arbitrary thing
          to apply something that affects clerics to someone who
          isnt a cleric. The blade only thing is a specific
          facet of his clerics.



          __________________________________________
          Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.
          Just $16.99/mo. or less.
          dsl.yahoo.com
        • Rich
          Everyone thanks for the imput I can see how some of the Clerics of Kelanen might find fault with my actions. However there is nothing in either the mod of the
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 2, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            Everyone thanks for the imput

            I can see how some of the Clerics of Kelanen might find fault with
            my actions. However there is nothing in either the mod of the AR to
            support this action. I was hoping the circle or the mod writer would
            chime in.

            As for Roleplaying my character I play a true neutral dwarf who left
            his family of master craftsmen to follow his greedy ways. In his
            second adventure ever he was permanently reduced for having unpure
            motives. I kept the curse for 2 years before going on a special
            mission to get it removed. He has been cursed, denied mods, and
            denied access for a lot of items because of his actions.

            I am not complaining I am just showing color.

            He believes the Tenets of Kelanen but if the diety is so fickle as
            to comdem his followers for such a simple slight then maybe it is
            better this way.

            I didn't use the smite with another weapon I simply used another
            weapon.

            Rich

            --- In Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com, Sean <chin_god@y...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > > Sorry that was so long, but i wanted to explain
            > > why my character converted to the lord of swords.
            > > (as you stated, his clerics often justify the
            > > roleplaying reasons for taking that awesome domain
            > > combo) For my character, the smite does virtually
            > > nothing: I have no charisma for the attack bonus and
            > > at fifth level it gives me +2 to damage once per day
            > > or adventure, or whenever (I forget). Woohoo.
            > >
            > > So even though I am an archer and a monk, I will
            > > keep my new faith and my powerful (lol) smite
            > > ability, though I won't use it except when wielding
            > > a sword. If I even remember to use it at all.
            > >
            > > To do otherwise would be bad roleplaying.
            > >
            >
            > Well no wonder you find it to be worthless, you are
            > trying to use smite evil not smite. Smite as per the
            > domain ability is a +4 to hit and then (for an
            > honorary blader) +CL-3 for damage. That can actually
            > make a bit of a difference. And also for the people
            > who like to whine about someone using it with
            > something other than a sword, re-read the AR and tell
            > me where it says you have to use a sword...cause it
            > doesn't and just because someone uses it as a cheese
            > thing doesn't give the DM the right to nerf it when
            > the rules don't back him. I would have argued quite a
            > bit with the GM on that since it is an arbitrary thing
            > to apply something that affects clerics to someone who
            > isnt a cleric. The blade only thing is a specific
            > facet of his clerics.
            >
            >
            >
            > __________________________________________
            > Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.
            > Just $16.99/mo. or less.
            > dsl.yahoo.com
            >
          • Gary Ledford
            Hopefully the mod writer will chime in for you. this smite ability does Not in fact make you a de-facto pious templar, as stated in someone else s post. You
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 3, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Hopefully the mod writer will chime in for you. this smite ability does Not in fact make you a de-facto pious templar, as stated in someone else's post. You should not lose it for using another weapon, although Samphorla was correct in stating that I cannot use it with a ranged weapon.

              BTW, Sean: thanx for the info on the smite-I guess it is a little more useful than I thought.

              But I still probably won't remember to use it lol.

              Rich <nordrin04@...> wrote:
              Everyone thanks for the imput

              I can see how some of the Clerics of Kelanen might find fault with
              my actions. However there is nothing in either the mod of the AR to
              support this action. I was hoping the circle or the mod writer would
              chime in.

              As for Roleplaying my character I play a true neutral dwarf who left
              his family of master craftsmen to follow his greedy ways. In his
              second adventure ever he was permanently reduced for having unpure
              motives. I kept the curse for 2 years before going on a special
              mission to get it removed. He has been cursed, denied mods, and
              denied access for a lot of items because of his actions.

              I am not complaining I am just showing color.

              He believes the Tenets of Kelanen but if the diety is so fickle as
              to comdem his followers for such a simple slight then maybe it is
              better this way.

              I didn't use the smite with another weapon I simply used another
              weapon.

              Rich

              --- In Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com, Sean <chin_god@y...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > > Sorry that was so long, but i wanted to explain
              > > why my character converted to the lord of swords.
              > > (as you stated, his clerics often justify the
              > > roleplaying reasons for taking that awesome domain
              > > combo) For my character, the smite does virtually
              > > nothing: I have no charisma for the attack bonus and
              > > at fifth level it gives me +2 to damage once per day
              > > or adventure, or whenever (I forget). Woohoo.
              > >
              > > So even though I am an archer and a monk, I will
              > > keep my new faith and my powerful (lol) smite
              > > ability, though I won't use it except when wielding
              > > a sword. If I even remember to use it at all.
              > >
              > > To do otherwise would be bad roleplaying.
              > >
              >
              > Well no wonder you find it to be worthless, you are
              > trying to use smite evil not smite. Smite as per the
              > domain ability is a +4 to hit and then (for an
              > honorary blader) +CL-3 for damage. That can actually
              > make a bit of a difference. And also for the people
              > who like to whine about someone using it with
              > something other than a sword, re-read the AR and tell
              > me where it says you have to use a sword...cause it
              > doesn't and just because someone uses it as a cheese
              > thing doesn't give the DM the right to nerf it when
              > the rules don't back him. I would have argued quite a
              > bit with the GM on that since it is an arbitrary thing
              > to apply something that affects clerics to someone who
              > isnt a cleric. The blade only thing is a specific
              > facet of his clerics.
              >
              >
              >
              > __________________________________________
              > Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.
              > Just $16.99/mo. or less.
              > dsl.yahoo.com
              >






              SPONSORED LINKS
              Role playing games Online role playing games Role playing games online

              ---------------------------------
              YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


              Visit your group "Living_Greyhawk" on the web.

              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              Living_Greyhawk-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


              ---------------------------------






              ---------------------------------
              Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • aurdraco
              ... does Not in fact make you a de-facto pious templar, as stated in someone else s post. Why doesn t it? Please re-read the AR: Honorary Blader - This
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 3, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com, Gary Ledford
                <garybrettledford@y...> wrote:
                >
                > Hopefully the mod writer will chime in for you. this smite ability
                does Not in fact make you a de-facto pious templar, as stated in
                someone else's post.

                Why doesn't it? Please re-read the AR:
                "Honorary Blader - This character proved her worth and ACCEPTED
                ATONEMENT and CONVERSION to the this sect of the Lord of Swords. The
                tattoo proves it. As long as this god is worshipped, once per
                adventure, this character can make a Smite attack equal to their
                character level -3. Switching gods removes this tattoo."

                Seems pretty clear to me. You accept the Smite, you're a
                representative of Kelanen, and as such you need to act like one. The
                AR doesn't need to say "use only with swords", or "act like a real
                worshipper of Kelanen" because they are both already implied if you
                role-play being a devoted worshipper of Kelanen.

                > You should not lose it for using another weapon, although Samphorla
                was correct in stating that I cannot use it with a ranged weapon

                People need to quit trying to cheese out this ability and role-play
                more. Seriously, it's a single attack/damage bonus per round. Is that
                enough to disregard role-playing altogether? D&D is a RPG, let's try
                to treat it like one.

                Casey
              • Rich
                Casey ... that ... try ... That is not correct it is only usable once per adventure which makes it far weaker than you make it out to be. I am all for
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 4, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Casey


                  > People need to quit trying to cheese out this ability and role-play
                  > more. Seriously, it's a single attack/damage bonus per round. Is
                  that
                  > enough to disregard role-playing altogether? D&D is a RPG, let's
                  try
                  > to treat it like one.


                  That is not correct it is only usable once per adventure which makes
                  it far weaker than you make it out to be. I am all for roleplaying
                  but are devote followers held to the same standard as clerics. If I
                  wanted cheese I could have just take a single level of cleric and get
                  the ability once per day which could be as many as 3 or 4 times in a
                  single mod. I didn't do that. It states in the dieties doc the divine
                  spellcasters lose the ability if they break this rule. I am on this
                  board because I want to play it right. While you are entitled to your
                  opinion it is just that your opinion. If there is no official stance
                  I will let each GM decide whether I can use the ability for the mod.

                  Regards

                  Rich



                  --- In Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com, "aurdraco" <aurdrac0@a...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com, Gary Ledford
                  > <garybrettledford@y...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hopefully the mod writer will chime in for you. this smite
                  ability
                  > does Not in fact make you a de-facto pious templar, as stated in
                  > someone else's post.
                  >
                  > Why doesn't it? Please re-read the AR:
                  > "Honorary Blader - This character proved her worth and ACCEPTED
                  > ATONEMENT and CONVERSION to the this sect of the Lord of Swords.
                  The
                  > tattoo proves it. As long as this god is worshipped, once per
                  > adventure, this character can make a Smite attack equal to their
                  > character level -3. Switching gods removes this tattoo."
                  >
                  > Seems pretty clear to me. You accept the Smite, you're a
                  > representative of Kelanen, and as such you need to act like one.
                  The
                  > AR doesn't need to say "use only with swords", or "act like a real
                  > worshipper of Kelanen" because they are both already implied if you
                  > role-play being a devoted worshipper of Kelanen.
                  >
                  > > You should not lose it for using another weapon, although
                  Samphorla
                  > was correct in stating that I cannot use it with a ranged weapon
                  >
                  > People need to quit trying to cheese out this ability and role-play
                  > more. Seriously, it's a single attack/damage bonus per round. Is
                  that
                  > enough to disregard role-playing altogether? D&D is a RPG, let's
                  try
                  > to treat it like one.
                  >
                  > Casey
                  >
                • aurdraco
                  Hey Rich, Comments in line. ... makes ... Sorry, when I said once per round , I was referring to a round as a LG event or adventure, not combat rounds. The
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 4, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hey Rich,

                    Comments in line.

                    --- In Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <nordrin04@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > That is not correct it is only usable once per adventure which
                    makes
                    > it far weaker than you make it out to be.

                    Sorry, when I said "once per round", I was referring to a round as a
                    LG event or adventure, not combat rounds. The fact that it is a
                    slightly weak ability, although useful when you need it, is why I
                    was pointing out that I feel it is silly to cheese it.

                    > I am all for roleplaying
                    > but are devote followers held to the same standard as clerics.

                    I agree that there are no clear game mechanics forcing these devoted
                    followers to pretend to be clerics. What I am arguing is that the
                    wording on the AR, from a RP perspective, implies that gaining the
                    Smite means a total conversion to the faith of Kelanen (the AR even
                    says that, and mentions Atonement, something usually reserved for
                    divine spell casters or alignment issues), and, as such, RP should
                    dictate acting like the clergy, especially since the conversion was
                    voluntary AND the PC gained a super-natural ability to boot.
                    Therefore, DMs are quite right, imo, to remove the Smite ability if
                    the supposedly devout worshipper of Kelanen uses weapons not
                    supported by his tenets (dagger, swords, crossbows).

                    > If I
                    > wanted cheese I could have just take a single level of cleric and
                    get
                    > the ability once per day which could be as many as 3 or 4 times in
                    a
                    > single mod. I didn't do that.

                    A level of cleric with the Smite domain could affect your character
                    progression in other ways, or might not fit your concept at all.
                    Besides, that Smite is a different beast, as you can't gain it just
                    by being a cleric of Kelanen as he does not have the Destruction
                    domain. Apples and oranges.

                    > It states in the dieties doc the divine
                    > spellcasters lose the ability if they break this rule.

                    Right, they added that because they were adding such info to the
                    document and because no one owned LGJ #3 anymore. People were
                    creating clerics of Kelanen who didn't even know the tenets of their
                    PC's faith (to get access to the Travel and War [any martial sword]
                    domains), and then getting surprised when judges such as myself, who
                    had read LGJ #3 and had researched Kelanen's Greyhawk canon, were
                    making them find atonement if they persisted in using weapons other
                    than swords or crossbows.

                    Anyhow, while I agree that mechanically the Honary Blader might not
                    be a divine spellcaster, I disagree that they can just ignore
                    Kelanen's tenets. Again, it's a role-playing game, let's have some
                    imagination here as opposed to just sticking to exact letter of the
                    wording to avoid consequences for our PC's decisions (such as not
                    using other weapons in order to prove your devotion). If you want to
                    be a DEVOTED worshipper of Kelanen, then be a DEVOTED worshipper of
                    Kelanen. Follow his tenents better than his clergy, and use that
                    Smite with your trusty sword.

                    > I am on this
                    > board because I want to play it right. While you are entitled to
                    your
                    > opinion it is just that your opinion. If there is no official
                    stance
                    > I will let each GM decide whether I can use the ability for the
                    mod.

                    Sure, it's just an opinion, it just happens to be the right one :)
                    Ask yourself this, if players of Kelanite characters think its
                    cheesy, wouldn't that be the best indication that it's cheesy, as we
                    are the most likely to care how PC worshippers of Kelanen are
                    portrayed in LG? IC, they'd probably have their PC tell your PC the
                    same thing. Wouldn't your PC respect their PC's opinion, since he's
                    supposed to be a part of their sect now?

                    Maybe the Circle will be kind enough to add a section to Kelanen's
                    write-up in the deities document for us re: the Honorary Bladers,
                    and whether they can use non-swords or not and still keep their
                    Smite ability. Until then, don't be surprised if a judge revokes the
                    Smite and requires your PC to atone if you use a non-sword. That's
                    certainly within their rights, imo.

                    Good gaming!

                    Casey Brown
                    aka Breeanna Windstrider, Mistress of the Hallorn Fencing Academy
                    14th level Contemplative Pious Templar of Kelanen
                    aka Garn Brokentooh, of the Hool Marsh Brokenteethesses
                    6th level Honorary Blader of Kelanen and former cleric of and future
                    Pious Templar of Kelanen
                    moderator: Church-of-Swords Y! group
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.