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Re: Feat/Spell (in)Access

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  • Steve Pachter
    ... Orb are ... Look at it this way: it s more fun if some of the spells and stuff are off the table at first. As a player of a wizard, I m pretty excited
    Message 1 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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      > And can someone tell me exactly WHY "Acid Orb," and "Lesser Acid
      Orb" are
      > deemed LIMITED ACCESS?

      Look at it this way: it's more fun if some of the spells and stuff
      are off the table at first. As a player of a wizard, I'm pretty
      excited when I get access to additional spells from a mod.

      > Are they REALLY so all-powerful? And has anyone ever
      > gotten campaign documentation to allow acces to these (or other)
      spells?

      Yup!
    • Patty Kinyon
      ... ***Yes, you are able to use T&B, and will be able to use it until all of the builder books are phased out. However, I believe ALL of the T&B spells &
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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        --- In Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com, tyrskald@a... wrote:
        > Since there are NO arcane spells under the list of "Accessibility:
        > Core" spells, are we able to use T&B until CArcane comes out? This
        > is basically what I need to know. Arcane spellusers are screwed
        > as far as core accessibility goes at this point otherwise.

        ***Yes, you are able to use T&B, and will be able to use it until
        all of the builder books are phased out. However, I believe ALL of
        the T&B spells & feats are "limited" except in those rare cases
        where they have been superceded by a PHB, CD, or CW version.
        Numerous metaorgs still offer access to T&B's spells/feats and I
        have seen such access granted in scenario play. So it's possible.

        I agree the interim period is a little tougher on arcane casters
        than warriors or divine types, but it does not seem to be a
        deliberate attempt to "screw" them. Even with *just* PHB spells, a
        mid to high level arcane caster is an awesome character whose
        presence in an adventuring party can spell the difference between
        success and failure in a scenario.

        >
        > Also, will someone share the details on the following with me
        please?:
        > ~FEAT: Energy Affinity (Miniatures Handbook) [replaces Energy
        > Substitution from Tome & Blood]
        > ~FEAT Improved Toughness (Complete Warrior) [replaces the series
        > of "Toughness" feats from Sword & Fist]

        If your character took the feat Energy Substitution (from T&B) or
        has access to take that feat, then they now have Energy Affinity
        instead.
        If your character took one of the feats Dwarves' Toughness, Giant's
        Toughness, or Dragon's Toughness(from S&F) or has access to take
        those feats, then they now have Improved Toughness instead.
        Improved Toughness can only be taken once, so they may need to check
        with their triad about it out if they took more than one of these
        feats.

        >
        > And can someone tell me exactly WHY "Acid Orb," and "Lesser Acid
        > Orb" are deemed LIMITED ACCESS? Are they REALLY so all-powerful?
        > And has anyone ever gotten campaign documentation to allow acces
        to these (or other) spells?

        ***Because they are offered in T&B. They have always had access to
        them limited, and the Circle did not see a need to make access to
        them core. If they do not appear in the Complete Arcane, then
        access to those spells will go away when the builder books are
        retired. If they DO appear in the Complete Arcane, then the
        precedent of Complete Divine suggests that they will be core.

        They *are* pretty nice spells since so few monsters are acid
        resistant. But hardly overpowered.

        And yes, PoU's Talons of Retribution metaorg offers access, and I
        have seen access granted in scenario play. I presume similar access
        is granted by other metaorgs and scenarios.

        > Signed,
        > A frustrated arcanist

        Don't feel TOO frustrated, I'm sure Complete Arcane will bring good
        stuff for you. Patience, patience.

        Patty
      • Russ Taylor
        ... From: Patty Kinyon To: Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 1:06 PM Subject: [Living_Greyhawk]
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Patty Kinyon" <pattykinyon@...>
          To: <Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 1:06 PM
          Subject: [Living_Greyhawk] Re: Feat/Spell (in)Access

          > And yes, PoU's Talons of Retribution metaorg offers access, and I
          > have seen access granted in scenario play. I presume similar access
          > is granted by other metaorgs and scenarios.

          It's actually illegal to offer access to Limited spells in a metaorg, and
          has been for some time now. All metaorgs were supposed to fully converted
          months ago (March?).

          Russ
        • Ed Gibson
          ... Do you have any documentation for this? I have a meta-org document which was updated in March and which still includes limited spells. Ed
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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            --- Russ Taylor <rtaylor@...> wrote:

            > It's actually illegal to offer access to Limited
            > spells in a metaorg, and
            > has been for some time now. All metaorgs were
            > supposed to fully converted months ago (March?).

            Do you have any documentation for this?

            I have a meta-org document which was updated in March
            and which still includes limited spells.

            Ed
          • Galen
            Yes, I d like to see the documentation too...considering most of the Duchy of Geoff s meta-orgs are STILL being converted (last due date was GenCon...that s
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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              Yes, I'd like to see the documentation too...considering most of the
              Duchy of Geoff's meta-orgs are STILL being converted (last due date
              was GenCon...that's passed).

              --Galen

              --- In Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com, Ed Gibson <hermedhie@y...>
              wrote:
              > --- Russ Taylor <rtaylor@c...> wrote:
              >
              > > It's actually illegal to offer access to Limited
              > > spells in a metaorg, and
              > > has been for some time now. All metaorgs were
              > > supposed to fully converted months ago (March?).
              >
              > Do you have any documentation for this?
              >
              > I have a meta-org document which was updated in March
              > and which still includes limited spells.
              >
              > Ed
            • malenthor
              ... the ... Perhaps they re just waiting until the next update due date when all item access it to be removed from meta-orgs (or so our Triad informed us a
              Message 6 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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                --- In Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com, "Galen" <reska@p...> wrote:
                >
                > Yes, I'd like to see the documentation too...considering most of
                the
                > Duchy of Geoff's meta-orgs are STILL being converted (last due date
                > was GenCon...that's passed).
                >
                > --Galen
                >

                Perhaps they're just waiting until the next update due date when all
                item access it to be removed from meta-orgs (or so our Triad informed
                us a while back on our regional list).

                Darryl
              • Skye
                ... That s not quite correct. It s illegal to offer access to spells that are now in Complete Divine or Complete Warrior. However, year 4 metaorgs can still
                Message 7 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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                  > It's actually illegal to offer access to Limited spells in a
                  > metaorg, and has been for some time now. All metaorgs were supposed
                  > to fully converted months ago (March?).

                  That's not quite correct. It's illegal to offer access to spells
                  that are now in Complete Divine or Complete Warrior. However, year 4
                  metaorgs can still offer access to other Builder Book material, to my
                  knowledge.

                  Terry Duchastel
                  PoU metaorg assistant
                • Russ Taylor
                  ... From: Ed Gibson To: Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 6:31 PM Subject: Re: [Living_Greyhawk] Re:
                  Message 8 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Ed Gibson" <hermedhie@...>
                    To: <Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 6:31 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Living_Greyhawk] Re: Feat/Spell (in)Access



                    > Do you have any documentation for this?
                    >
                    > I have a meta-org document which was updated in March
                    > and which still includes limited spells.

                    I have it, but you'd have to get it from your triad. It's in the LGAH - only
                    material in builder books may be given out, and the correlary to that
                    (confirmed with the Circle multiple times) is that any builder book item
                    that was superceded by a newer book is no longer able to be given out.

                    The gist of it is that metaorgs cannot give out material from Manual of the
                    Planes, the Miniatures Handbook, or the Arms and Equipment Guide.

                    Russ
                  • Russ Taylor
                    ... From: Skye To: Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 8:56 PM Subject: [Living_Greyhawk] Re:
                    Message 9 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Skye" <skye_feydark@...>
                      To: <Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 8:56 PM
                      Subject: [Living_Greyhawk] Re: Feat/Spell (in)Access


                      >
                      >
                      >> It's actually illegal to offer access to Limited spells in a
                      >> metaorg, and has been for some time now. All metaorgs were supposed
                      >> to fully converted months ago (March?).
                      >
                      > That's not quite correct. It's illegal to offer access to spells
                      > that are now in Complete Divine or Complete Warrior. However, year 4
                      > metaorgs can still offer access to other Builder Book material, to my
                      > knowledge.

                      It's basically not allowed to give out anything in a Builder Book that has
                      appeared in a currently allowed (for authors or players) book. The list is
                      getting longer - Arms and Equipment Guide (though I think there's only a
                      small amount of overlap there), Miniature's Handbook, Draconomicon, Book of
                      Exalted Deeds, Complete Divine, Complete Warrior, and Manual of the Planes
                      (again, probably no overlap there). A newer source means the item is no
                      longer available from the older source, and again, that was confirmed
                      multiple times during our own metaorg reorginization. Since metaorgs can
                      only give out builder book items, that leaves those items that have appeared
                      elsewhere (in an allowed source) out of bounds.

                      Russ
                    • Michael J. Eshleman
                      ... Those feats were in Masters of the Wild, not Sword & Fist. -Michael Eshleman
                      Message 10 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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                        > ~FEAT Improved Toughness (Complete Warrior) [replaces the series of
                        > "Toughness" feats from Sword & Fist]

                        Those feats were in Masters of the Wild, not Sword & Fist.

                        -Michael Eshleman
                      • Skye
                        ... This is not quite correct. Metaorgs can (and do) give access to items from the Arms and Equipment Guide. This has been validated by a Circle member.
                        Message 11 of 18 , Nov 2, 2004
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                          > The gist of it is that metaorgs cannot give out material from
                          > Manual of the Planes, the Miniatures Handbook, or the Arms and
                          > Equipment Guide.

                          This is not quite correct. Metaorgs can (and do) give access to
                          items from the Arms and Equipment Guide. This has been validated by
                          a Circle member.

                          Terry Duchastel
                          PoU metaorg assistant
                        • Skye
                          ... This is correct. Thanks for making that correction to my clarification. In my haste to comment on this, explaining that metaorgs can in fact offer access
                          Message 12 of 18 , Nov 2, 2004
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                            > >> It's actually illegal to offer access to Limited spells in a
                            > >> metaorg, and has been for some time now.
                            > >
                            > > That's not quite correct. It's illegal to offer access to spells
                            > > that are now in Complete Divine or Complete Warrior. However,
                            > > year 4 metaorgs can still offer access to other Builder Book
                            > > material, to my knowledge.
                            >
                            > It's basically not allowed to give out anything in a Builder Book
                            > that has appeared in a currently allowed (for authors or players)
                            > book.

                            This is correct. Thanks for making that correction to my
                            clarification. In my haste to comment on this, explaining that
                            metaorgs can in fact offer access to some Limited spells, I was not
                            specific enough.

                            Terry Duchastel
                          • Russ Taylor
                            ... From: Skye To: Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 10:19 AM Subject: [Living_Greyhawk] Re:
                            Message 13 of 18 , Nov 2, 2004
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                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Skye" <skye_feydark@...>
                              To: <Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 10:19 AM
                              Subject: [Living_Greyhawk] Re: Feat/Spell (in)Access


                              >
                              >
                              >> The gist of it is that metaorgs cannot give out material from
                              >> Manual of the Planes, the Miniatures Handbook, or the Arms and
                              >> Equipment Guide.
                              >
                              > This is not quite correct. Metaorgs can (and do) give access to
                              > items from the Arms and Equipment Guide. This has been validated by
                              > a Circle member.

                              Well, the Circle needs to get this straight then, since we were told no to
                              the exact same question. Probably back to "some regions are more equal than
                              others"

                              Russ
                            • Pierre van Rooden
                              ... no to ... equal than ... We did get to use A&E equipment (i.e. the mercurial longsword). No Complete Book item access though, maybe you are confusing it
                              Message 14 of 18 , Nov 2, 2004
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                                > Well, the Circle needs to get this straight then, since we were told
                                no to
                                > the exact same question. Probably back to "some regions are more
                                equal than
                                > others"

                                We did get to use A&E equipment (i.e. the mercurial longsword).
                                No Complete Book item access though, maybe you are confusing it with that?
                                Mind you it was a bit difficult to get hold of the new rules as a
                                non-triad member, since they were posted (in several separtae mails,
                                including revisions) to the triad list. I had to redo a few MOs
                                because of the confusuon, and with different interpretations of the
                                rules I bet that happens all over.
                                In the end it worked though, and I think of the Sunndi MOs the favors
                                and special bonuses are more fun than the item access (though I'll not
                                deny those aren't useful).

                                Gomez,
                                Sunndi Meta-Org guy
                              • Joseph
                                ... Amazingly, I ve repeatedly seen different interpretations of the rules across various regions which always struck me, considering the rules are pretty
                                Message 15 of 18 , Nov 3, 2004
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                                  --- In Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre van Rooden"
                                  <gomez@g...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > and with different interpretations of the
                                  > rules I bet that happens all over.


                                  Amazingly, I've repeatedly seen different interpretations of the
                                  rules across various regions which always struck me, considering the
                                  rules are pretty clear. If it was reprinted in one of the newer
                                  books (as listedin Russ's previous email) you cannot give access to
                                  it.

                                  It seems simple and straightforward, yet somehow people still seem
                                  to have different interpretations.


                                  --Joe
                                  1/3
                                • Justin 'celticshiva' White
                                  ... All spells from the class books (IE: Tome and Blood) that have not yet been reprinted in a Complete Book are limited access. This is because under 3rd
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Nov 7, 2004
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                                    >
                                    >And can someone tell me exactly WHY "Acid Orb," and "Lesser Acid Orb" are
                                    >deemed LIMITED ACCESS? Are they REALLY so all-powerful? And has anyone ever
                                    >gotten campaign documentation to allow acces to these (or other) spells?


                                    All spells from the class books (IE: Tome and Blood) that have not yet
                                    been reprinted in a Complete Book are limited access. This is because
                                    under 3rd year rule there were no core access spells from outside the PHB
                                    (you needed access for them all). They are changing this somewhat now that
                                    3.5 and the Complete books are coming out.

                                    Not only that, I believe the Class Guide books are being removed from the
                                    campaign if the feats/spells/prcs are not reprinted in one of the Complete
                                    books.

                                    Lastly, some things are not limited or restricted because of power, but
                                    because their flavour does not match with Living Greyhawk (that's why some
                                    of the Oriental Adventures PRcs are not allowed).

                                    So look for Acid Orb in Complete Arcane, or you are probably out of
                                    luck. Even when Complete Arcane does come out you will have to wait for
                                    the updated LGCS to come out, which from the rumors I'm hearing won't be
                                    until March.

                                    >Since there are NO arcane spells under the list of "Accessibility: Core"

                                    This is inaccurate. A very nice spell called Phantom Threat appeared in
                                    Complete Warrior (it's a bard spell). Augment Familiar also appears in
                                    Complete Warrior, and is core access. I'm certain there are Arcane spells
                                    in Complete Divine as well.

                                    Limited spells do require you to have access on an AR (or meta-org,
                                    currently) for them. Every region I know has a wizard college or at least
                                    a fellowship of arcane casters that grants access to some spells. The
                                    duchy of urnst even has a circus meta-org that grants acid orb as a spell
                                    for jugglers :). Access from meta-orgs is due to be rebalanced, but that
                                    will probably happen after all the complete books been out and the LGCS is
                                    updated, so by that time the other options become available. (I think
                                    that's only going to hit items, also, and not magic.. but I could be wrong.)

                                    >~FEAT: Energy Affinity (Miniatures Handbook) [replaces Energy Substitution
                                    >from Tome & Blood]
                                    >~FEAT Improved Toughness (Complete Warrior) [replaces the series of
                                    >"Toughness" feats from Sword & Fist]

                                    If someone has the old Energy Substitution or some of the old feats from
                                    Sword & Fist, these are replaced with Energy Affinity and Improved
                                    Toughness from the new, respective, sources.

                                    Justin White
                                    3/3 and out.

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                                  • Darrell Impey
                                    In article , Justin celticshiva White writes ... Creighton recently said the following o the
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Nov 7, 2004
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                                      In article <6.1.0.6.0.20041107093348.01d73130@shawmail>, Justin
                                      'celticshiva' White <shivafang@...> writes
                                      >Even when Complete Arcane does come out you will have to wait for the
                                      >updated LGCS to come out, which from the rumors I'm hearing won't be
                                      >until March.


                                      Creighton recently said the following o the Onnwal list:

                                      "The Circle are currently discussing the new Complete books and how to
                                      integrate them into the campaign... This will be occurring early next
                                      year some time. "
                                      --
                                      Darrell
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