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[livingworld] Re: Slander was Cons, Gamedays, Basements, & Awards...

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  • willela@msn.com
    edgibson-@aol.com wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/livingworld/?start=4297 ... are ... because ... But if your motives are as pure as the
    Message 1 of 13 , Nov 1, 1999
      edgibson-@... wrote:
      original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/livingworld/?start=4297
      > In a message dated 10/31/99 1:53:08 AM EST, willela@... writes:
      >
      > > Of course, any charge of self-interest cuts both ways. If you say
      > > I am objecting to cons having perks because I can't get them, you
      are
      > > also saying you want cons to have perks because that gives you an
      > > advantage.
      >
      > This may come as a surprise to you, but I'm concerned with this topic
      because
      > I'm concerned with the future of the RPGA.
      But if your motives are as pure as the driven snow, why is it so
      hard to assume your opponents are not equally virtuous? It may play
      well, but assuming all virtue lies with your side and all evil on the
      other is clearly quite a stretch. & why should not your opponents
      reply in kind, saying you are the foul one incarnate against their
      angelic remenant.
      Incidentally, it is legally impossible to slander anyone here.
      Slander is spoken, and even if using those not quite perfected voice
      system, your words are written, and thus are called libel.

      > A LC only RPGA isn't a viable
      > long term organization. The RPGA needs to provide for players of
      Classic
      > events as well as game systems other than AD&D if it's going to
      survive.
      > These events aren't suitable to game days, but require cons to get
      the
      > necessary number of players.
      None of this is indisputable. Chess is one of many games which has
      survived quite nicely in just one form, with the many variants
      surviving at all only because the central game thrives. This is not
      far from what happened with ADD2. About a dozen variants were created,
      and mostly died. It was the health of the generic game that allowed
      them to exist at all. A heavily LC and/or LG RPGA might well be far
      healthier for longer than one that must support a variety of dead wood.
      All events are suitable for game days. Now true, the convention is
      more efficient for the rarer event. But besides many of these games
      being rare for good reason, there is nothing keeping them out of game
      days.
      >
      > Another point for all the Game Day promoters is what benefit does TSR
      receive
      > if the tournaments run only at game days and not at cons? You can't
      travel
      > to another region to play a LW event, unless you can make it to a
      game day
      > (which would have to be close enough to make a day trip affordable
      and would
      > have to be open to outsiders (many aren't)).
      This is a self-imposed limitation. We have set the rule that you
      must travel to play in other countries, and can abolish it just as
      easily. & we likely will in a computer generation or so when the
      internet becomes a little faster and more common.
      However, we in general have taken a rather negative view of travel
      in the game. We are trying to make it more difficult, not easier. So
      from our current policy view [quite possibly mistaken], encouraging
      travel is a sin by conventions, not a reason to support them.

      > At that point, you have a lot
      > of people working to support your home campaign (which isn't going to
      last
      > very long).
      Does not follow. Home campaigns likely outlast grand schemes.

      > So in order to provide for a long term campaign in the Greyhawk
      > setting, we need cons to survive to allow for travel between regions,
      and
      > that means that cons have to be able to offer benefits to compensate
      for
      > their higher expenses and time commitment.
      This is both obvious and misleading. Cons have to be able to offer
      something desired to survive. That does not mean we need to offer cons
      anything to help. Indeed, if the con can't survive without RPGA help,
      it likely can't survive.
      >
      > Ed
      David Argall
      dargall345@...
    • EdGibson1@aol.com
      ... Intentionally or not, your previous postings on regional modules, magic items, character generation, and various and sundry other topics make you sound
      Message 2 of 13 , Nov 1, 1999
        In a message dated 11/1/99 3:43:27 AM EST, willela@... writes:

        > But if your motives are as pure as the driven snow, why is it so
        > hard to assume your opponents are not equally virtuous?

        Intentionally or not, your previous postings on regional modules, magic
        items, character generation, and various and sundry other topics make you
        sound like a munchkin. Since I have never gamed with you, I can only rely on
        what you've written and this is the impression I receive.

        > None of this is indisputable. Chess is one of many games which has
        > survived quite nicely in just one form, with the many variants
        > surviving at all only because the central game thrives.

        We're not talking about people playing chess or ad&d, we're talking about
        people paying $20 to become guild members of the RPGA. You can run game days
        all year with fellowship (free) members. This does nothing to help the RPGA
        grow.

        > This is a self-imposed limitation. We have set the rule that you
        > must travel to play in other countries, and can abolish it just as
        > easily.

        Yes, we have defined the limitations so a regional feel is apparent. I don't
        expect this to be changed for a long time.

        > However, we in general have taken a rather negative view of travel
        > in the game.

        I disagree. I think we've taken the realistic approach that travel takes
        time and PCs have a finite amount of time in a year.

        > Does not follow. Home campaigns likely outlast grand schemes.

        You misunderstand. How long are the Triads and other volunteers going to
        work on the campaign, if they don't receive positive feedback? If you're
        just using the modules to run a game in your basement and they never see you
        at a con, where are they going to get the positive reinforcement to encourage
        them to continue their hard work?

        > Cons have to be able to offer
        > something desired to survive. That does not mean we need to offer cons
        > anything to help. Indeed, if the con can't survive without RPGA help,
        > it likely can't survive.

        If we want people to be able to get the regional feel, we need cons. If we
        don't want people to be able to experience travel and meeting travellers from
        other regions, we may as well play LC where there's a bland, generic fantasy
        setting.

        Ed
      • Tyler Bannister
        ... I think this is the problem, Ed, Cons need to offer benefits not, the RPGA. Realistically, Greyhawk not having first run items is not going to adversly
        Message 3 of 13 , Nov 1, 1999
          On Sun, 31 Oct 1999 EdGibson1@... wrote:

          > that means that cons have to be able to offer benefits to compensate for
          > their higher expenses and time commitment.
          >
          > Ed

          I think this is the problem, Ed, Cons need to offer benefits not,
          the RPGA. Realistically, Greyhawk not having first run items is not going
          to adversly affect any cons. Why? Because up until now, there has been
          no Living Greyhawk, and there won't be any until GenCon. So it's hard to
          see how anyone can justify first run certs with an argument that
          conventions will fail without them. They already don't have any Living
          Greyhawk First Run Certs.

          Now if you want to argue that the first-run certs will save any
          currently failing cons, that's a different argument and one that needs a
          lot of justification.

          --
          Tyler Bannister
          tbannist@...
        • EdGibson1@aol.com
          In a message dated 11/1/99 10:54:17 AM EST, ... I have never made the point that cons need first run items. Cons need to be able to offer a gaming experience
          Message 4 of 13 , Nov 1, 1999
            In a message dated 11/1/99 10:54:17 AM EST,
            tbannist@... writes:

            > I think this is the problem, Ed, Cons need to offer benefits not,
            > the RPGA. Realistically, Greyhawk not having first run items is not going
            > to adversly affect any cons.

            I have never made the point that cons need first run items. Cons need to be
            able to offer a gaming experience which encourages players to attend cons
            instead of waiting and running the same modules in their basements. We need
            to look at how this can be done in the LG setting.

            Ed
          • Tim Breen
            ... The longevity of a home campaign is typically not tied to the publication of rules systems (witness the number of 1st edition AD&D campaigns mentioned in
            Message 5 of 13 , Nov 1, 1999
              > > At that point, you have a lot
              > > of people working to support your home campaign (which isn't going to
              > > last very long).
              >
              > Does not follow. Home campaigns likely outlast grand schemes.

              The longevity of a home campaign is typically not tied to the
              publication of rules systems (witness the number of 1st edition AD&D
              campaigns mentioned in rec.games.frp.dnd) or company support, but
              rather to the personal lives of the players, and especially the DM.

              In most campaigns that I've experienced or read about, the single
              most important element is the DM. Why? Because the DM generally
              decides to a greater or lesser extent the "flavor" of the campaign,
              what is permissible, etc. (the players, of course, might modify the
              original DM design).

              My own home campaign has been ongoing since 1984, with players
              leaving as they move out of the area (the campaign started in
              college) or joining as they become a part of our circle of friends by
              one means or another. The campaign actually started using primarily
              the pre-first-edition "three little booklets" and has progressed
              through 1st Edition AD&D to 2nd Edition AD&D, incorporated some of
              the "Complete Handbooks", evaluated and entirely rejected the "PO"
              series, and so on (the campaign will probably NOT be converted to 3rd
              Edition; too much work involved).

              However, this is not to say that my home campaign hasn't received
              support from the work of a lot of strangers. Over time I've
              incorporated adventures published separately by TSR, an adventure
              from an old Dragon magazine which has formed a large central campaign
              plot, adventures from DUNGEON Magazine, materials swiped from Judge's
              Guild products, and more. We have "deities" from the original D&D
              books (anyone remember "Math" the "Neutral Wizard"?), the calendar
              from the Forgotten Realms (albeit altered slightly), and a modified
              version of the plot line from Against the Giants. [Aside: Writing all
              this out has made me realize just how much stuff I'm still using that
              was published in the 1970s!]

              So I see "having a lot of people working to support [my] home
              campaign" as a very GOOD thing. In fact, that's always been TSR's
              primary business -- supporting the home campaigns of all the people
              who buy the xD&D rules. If LW or any of the other Living campaigns
              can be made to serve that end in addition to whatever other ends they
              must serve, I see _that_ as a good thing, too.

              -- Tim


              In a world without walls or fences, why do we need Windows or Gates?
            • Tim Breen
              ... Is traveling to all/most/some of the conventions in the region a requirement for being on a Triad? The reason I ask is that the region in which I live
              Message 6 of 13 , Nov 1, 1999
                >You misunderstand. How long are the Triads and other volunteers going to
                >work on the campaign, if they don't receive positive feedback? If you're
                >just using the modules to run a game in your basement and they never see you
                >at a con, where are they going to get the positive reinforcement to encourage
                >them to continue their hard work?

                Is traveling to all/most/some of the conventions in the region a
                requirement for being on a Triad? The reason I ask is that the region
                in which I live includes Southern California and Arizona, but ALL of
                the Triad members live in the Los Angeles/Orange county area (e.g.,
                about a 40-50 minute drive between the furthest two members). It's
                possible* that the Triad members will NEVER attend a convention in
                Arizona, which would mean that, according to the paragraph quoted
                above, that there should be no practical difference between a
                convention or a game day in Arizona in this respect.

                Some other regions cover a _great_ deal more real estate than ours
                (Ket and Perrenland -- Eastern/Central Canada and Australia
                respectively -- come to mind). It's a lot, I think, to expect that
                Triad members go to all of the conventions in their region. And if
                they _don't_ go to the convention(s) in your area, then they don't
                get the feedback that Ed mentions as being so important. So how is a
                convention they don't attend any more important than a game day they
                don't attend?

                -- Tim


                *I don't have any idea of the inclination/ability of any given Triad
                member to travel to a convention in Arizona, but it could certainly
                be inconvenient and/or expensive to attend. This is an example only,
                and should not be considered any kind of negative reflection on
                anyone.


                In a world without walls or fences, why do we need Windows or Gates?
              • EdGibson1@aol.com
                ... I think the triad members should make it to some of the cons in the region. Personally, I think geographic diversity should have been one of the more
                Message 7 of 13 , Nov 1, 1999
                  In a message dated 11/1/99 10:24:38 PM EST, breenrt@... writes:

                  > Is traveling to all/most/some of the conventions in the region a
                  > requirement for being on a Triad? The reason I ask is that the region
                  > in which I live includes Southern California and Arizona, but ALL of
                  > the Triad members live in the Los Angeles/Orange county area

                  I think the triad members should make it to some of the cons in the region.
                  Personally, I think geographic diversity should have been one of the more
                  important criteria when selecting volunteers. Yes, the person must be able
                  to do the job, but assuming you have two acceptable candidates, choose the
                  one who broadens the coverage in the region.

                  Ed
                • willela@msn.com
                  edgibson-@aol.com wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/livingworld/?start=4321 ... which has ... about ... game days ... the RPGA ... I ll
                  Message 8 of 13 , Nov 2, 1999
                    edgibson-@... wrote:
                    original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/livingworld/?start=4321
                    > In a message dated 11/1/99 3:43:27 AM EST, willela@... writes:
                    >
                    > > None of this is indisputable. Chess is one of many games
                    which has
                    > > survived quite nicely in just one form, with the many variants
                    > > surviving at all only because the central game thrives.
                    >
                    > We're not talking about people playing chess or ad&d, we're talking
                    about
                    > people paying $20 to become guild members of the RPGA. You can run
                    game days
                    > all year with fellowship (free) members. This does nothing to help
                    the RPGA
                    > grow.
                    I'll leave the accuracy of that to the TSR "experts". However, this
                    can't be made as a absolute statement. Free introductory memberships
                    are offered by a variety of businesses to a variety of customers. To
                    say fellowship members at game days do not profit the RPGA requires a
                    host of facts we simply do not have. In any event, it is easily
                    corrected by imposing a fee for fellowship membership.
                    >

                    > > However, we in general have taken a rather negative view of
                    travel
                    > > in the game.
                    >
                    > I disagree. I think we've taken the realistic approach that travel
                    takes
                    > time and PCs have a finite amount of time in a year.
                    In this case, realistic and negative mean the same thing.
                    >
                    > > Does not follow. Home campaigns likely outlast grand schemes.
                    >
                    > You misunderstand. How long are the Triads and other volunteers
                    going to
                    > work on the campaign, if they don't receive positive feedback? If
                    you're
                    > just using the modules to run a game in your basement and they never
                    see you
                    > at a con, where are they going to get the positive reinforcement to
                    encourage
                    > them to continue their hard work?
                    Easily. I write them letters for one thing. I send them
                    submissions. TSR gets a renewal check from me....
                    & as others have noted, it is not clear they will get much positive
                    feedback at conventions.
                    >
                    > > Cons have to be able to offer
                    > > something desired to survive. That does not mean we need to offer
                    cons
                    > > anything to help. Indeed, if the con can't survive without RPGA
                    help,
                    > > it likely can't survive.
                    >
                    > If we want people to be able to get the regional feel, we need cons.
                    To acquire a regional feel requires neither cons, nor any
                    relationship with real geography. We are roleplaying after all. We no
                    more need to be in Los Angeles to be in Nyrond than an actor needs to
                    be in Russia to play Stalin.

                    > If we
                    > don't want people to be able to experience travel and meeting
                    travellers from
                    > other regions, we may as well play LC where there's a bland, generic
                    fantasy
                    > setting.
                    Our present rules mean that for many regions "travellers" from other
                    countries will be about zip.
                    >
                    > Ed
                  • Clayton F. Hinton
                    ... Well, if the Triad is not spread out, then *someone* either on the Triad of reporting to the Triad needs to get to know the players in the far-flung
                    Message 9 of 13 , Nov 2, 1999
                      >Is traveling to all/most/some of the conventions in the region a
                      >requirement for being on a Triad?

                      Well, if the Triad is not spread out, then *someone* either on the Triad of
                      reporting to the Triad needs to get to know the players in the far-flung
                      regions. I say this because the players are supposed to feel like they
                      have a greater impact on their particular region than in previous campaigns
                      (LC). They will have a hard time doing this without contact with their
                      Triad members.

                      > The reason I ask is that the region
                      >in which I live includes Southern California and Arizona, but ALL of
                      >the Triad members live in the Los Angeles/Orange county area (e.g.,
                      >about a 40-50 minute drive between the furthest two members). It's
                      >possible* that the Triad members will NEVER attend a convention in
                      >Arizona, which would mean that, according to the paragraph quoted
                      >above, that there should be no practical difference between a
                      >convention or a game day in Arizona in this respect.

                      I would hope one of them could make it out there to meet the locals once in
                      a while. I'm making that very effort in Texas and Oklahoma because I feel
                      it's essential in the long run to know the gamers in all the areas to
                      properly include them in the campaign.

                      >Some other regions cover a _great_ deal more real estate than ours
                      >(Ket and Perrenland -- Eastern/Central Canada and Australia
                      >respectively -- come to mind). It's a lot, I think, to expect that
                      >Triad members go to all of the conventions in their region. And if
                      >they _don't_ go to the convention(s) in your area, then they don't
                      >get the feedback that Ed mentions as being so important. So how is a
                      >convention they don't attend any more important than a game day they
                      >don't attend?

                      Well, this question is not directed at me, so I'll feel free to offer a
                      more middle-of-the-road possibility: one Triad member goes to some of the
                      biggest events in your entire area. That might mean he/she flies out to
                      yonder city to visit the local townies every now and then.

                      This is particularly important in physically large regions, since by nature
                      there won't be as much intermingling and the Triad has to take that into
                      account when developing the campaign. Who else is going to bring an aire
                      of community to a large region, if not one or more of the Triad members?




                      Clay Hinton

                      #302634
                      Great Plains 2 (Bandit Kingdoms)
                      Triad member
                    • Clayton F. Hinton
                      At 01:35 AM 11/2/99 -080 ... This goes back to your original disagreement with the regional basis of Living Greyhawk. LG is using regions to instill a better
                      Message 10 of 13 , Nov 2, 1999
                        At 01:35 AM 11/2/99 -080
                        > To acquire a regional feel requires neither cons, nor any
                        >relationship with real geography.

                        This goes back to your original disagreement with the regional basis of
                        Living Greyhawk. LG is using regions to instill a better sense of
                        community in the individual regions, so arguing against it is pretty
                        destructive. We're already doing it, and it's a foundation for the entire
                        campaign's organizational structure.

                        >We are roleplaying after all. We no
                        >more need to be in Los Angeles to be in Nyrond than an actor needs to
                        >be in Russia to play Stalin.

                        But it sure would be helpful! "Need to" and "Aught to" are two entirely
                        separate things. We're looking at the "Aught to's" here, to try and make a
                        better campaign.

                        -Clay
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