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Re: Flaming Clubs

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  • mkcottle
    I don t know if we re talking about the same module, but I went through that as first level, but went in and borrowed the silver candlestick holders from the
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 1, 2002
      I don't know if we're talking about the same module, but I went
      through that as first level, but went in and "borrowed" the silver
      candlestick holders from the local church. (read: thoughful DM)
      I figured that if blunt candlestick damage was good enough for
      Professor Plumb in the library...

      - Cottle

      --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., ekiefer@k... wrote:
      >
      > Well, even with that gift, I did drop 4 out of 6 to negatives in
      one instance,
      > and 3 of 6 from a second. The other two groups were much more
      intelligent about
      > their attack plan on the bad guys, but still took a beating. (The
      Magic Weapon
      > spell - Don't leave home without memorizing it.)
      >
      > And would you really want to pay for a magic weapon that burns out
      after 1 hour
      > (or so) and can't be turned off? It's automatically destroyed after
      all.
      >
      > Like I said, this was to save 1st level partiea from a TPK because
      the module
      > was so poorly written. And I still came damn close to doing it.
      The challenge
      > was totally inappropriate for 1st level characters, especially
      since it's
      > written into this particular module that the PCs CANNOT find anyone
      to buy a
      > silver weapon from.
      >
      > Perhaps I should have just run the module as written and be
      boasting on here how
      > I managed to get 4 tpks instead of giving the characters a fair
      chance of
      > winning? "Oh, first time you've played Living Greyhawk? Too bad
      you won't live
      > to see second level because this module is so deadly." Yeah,
      that'll bring
      > people back to the table and help the campaign grow.
      >
      > Cordially,
      >
      > Eric
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Fantasy role-playing for sure! Pray tell, where can I find these
      wonderous 1
      > copper piece flaming clubs? I'm planning on discarding this much
      less useful
      > longsword that only does 1d8 damage. 1d6 + 1d3 fire damage for a
      torch?
      > Hmmmm... perhaps I shall find a MW version, have it enchanted to +2
      flaming
      > burst, and make it a signature item!
      >
    • Kevin Elmore
      I won t mention the module, but the details are becoming pretty vivid on this thread. If you know what flaming clubs are about, then read on. If not, then
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 1, 2002
        I won't mention the module, but the details are becoming
        pretty vivid on this thread. If you know what flaming
        clubs are about, then read on. If not, then you may still
        play this module.

        I'm going to be even more descriptive in this post.





        > Actually, if its the particular adaptable that I'm
        > thinking of (based on the
        > description initially gave below) then the PCs are
        > actually given the
        > silvered means to defeat them early on in the module
        > itself. Still

        The silvered means being the 10 bolts you mean? Which
        assumes that someone in the party has a crossbow. Which
        assumes that the party will hit 100% of the time. Which
        assumes that enough damage will be done to the beasties
        with these 10 bolts alone.

        I do not find that an acceptable solution. Even if a
        missed bolt doesn't break, good luck finding it. The good
        point is that in a village setting, you can find the bolt
        sticking out of a wooden wall. Fight in the open, and you
        can kiss that bolt good-bye.

        With the constraints of Living Greyhawk, this was not a
        suitable module for a 1st-level party.

        But that now is past. Judging from other modules, I think
        they have learned that lycanthropes vs. 1st level guys in
        Living Greyhawk was foolish. There are still some
        encounters that I don't think were appropriate but nothing
        as horrible as this one.

        And now that you're allowed to buy silver items, it's
        really a moot point. But hopefully, they will still
        remember this. You never know when someone is going to
        write a wraith into a low-level encounter.

        > whose first PC died in said adaptable, and who has run it
        > for other people
        > since

        I'll state that I was one of those fortunate groups that
        Eric K. ran where I did cast magic weapon. Even though our
        group survived, and everything turned out fine, I still
        argue the appropriateness of that module. The bolts were
        not a suitable compensation--especially since you get a
        silver dagger at the end instead of at the beginning. THAT
        was a slap to the face right there.

        I ran this module and had to BS my way through player
        innovation. I tried to keep it legal in LG standards, but
        you can only stretch credibility so far. When the group
        only wanted to steal candlesticks from the silversmith, I
        allowed it. Everyone was out of the shops anyway, and the
        guards were busy with a riot. So I let the PCs club the
        lycanthropes to death with their newfound weapons. Their
        reward at the end was that the town wasn't going to
        prosecute them for stealing since it was in defense of the
        town.

        I didn't suffer from the module, but I hated it
        nonetheless.

        Kevin



        =====
        "Well, you take the freshly shaved rat, and you marinade it in a puddle for a while."
        "Hmm, for how long?"
        "Until it's drowned. Then you stretch it out under a hot light bulb, then you get within dashing distance of the latrine, and then you scoff it right down."
        "So that's sauteing, and fricasseeing?"
        "Exactly the same, just a slightly bigger rat."
        --Blackadder Goes Forth

        __________________________________________________
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      • The Game
        I still think that any table that can t get around DR deserves to be TPK d. DR is nothing. All it does is keep the fighter s longsword or the barbarian s
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 1, 2002
          I still think that any table that can't get around DR
          deserves to be TPK'd. DR is nothing. All it does is
          keep the fighter's longsword or the barbarian's
          battleaxe from cutting as deeply as it normally does.
          All other damage (force from Magic Missiles, fire from
          oil or Burning Hands, electricity from Shocking Grasp,
          holy from Inflict Light Wounds, etc.) affects the
          creature as normally.

          And, if you don't have a flask of oil that you can
          prepare to throw (doing 1d6 damage 50% of the time as
          if Alchemist's Fire) you aren't a *real* adventurer.

          BTW, the builder book Song and Silence lists damage
          from a torch. It does not present it as a new rule,
          however, but refers to it in such a way as to imply
          that the rule was found in the Core books while
          listing an alternate damage from the feat
          Pyro-something.

          So, somewhere in the core rules there is listed actual
          damage from a torch. I've been looking for it for
          months, though, and haven't found it.

          ryan

          =====
          Eat The Rich
          "Take a bite, take another,
          Just like a good boy would.
          Get a sweet thing on the side,
          Home cooking homicide.
          Side order could be your daughter,
          Finger Lickin' Good."

          __________________________________________________
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          Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
          http://auctions.yahoo.com
        • ekiefer@katz.pitt.edu
          Would you have said that the first week you bought the PHB before you d played the game at all? A year into it now, yes, the ways around DR are more well
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 1, 2002
            Would you have said that the first week you bought the PHB before you'd played
            the game at all?

            A year into it now, yes, the ways around DR are more well known.

            But this specific example was for a table of 4 to 6 brand spanking new
            characters from this time last year, when silver items were still "rare" enough
            to be certed, and the item given out was only usable if you had the particular
            missile weapon that it was good for. And for a number of those people, this was
            their first chance to play 3E.

            S&S wasn't out. Pyro says you do 1 extra point of damage with fire, and says
            fire normally does 1d6. (I'm meeting my group right after work, so I have it
            here today.) It doesn't however say a torch does 1d6, but let's assume then
            that it does 1d6 fire damage.

            Have a nice weekend everybody!

            Cordially,

            Eric




            I still think that any table that can't get around DR
            deserves to be TPK'd. DR is nothing. All it does is
            keep the fighter's longsword or the barbarian's
            battleaxe from cutting as deeply as it normally does.
            All other damage (force from Magic Missiles, fire from
            oil or Burning Hands, electricity from Shocking Grasp,
            holy from Inflict Light Wounds, etc.) affects the
            creature as normally.

            And, if you don't have a flask of oil that you can
            prepare to throw (doing 1d6 damage 50% of the time as
            if Alchemist's Fire) you aren't a *real* adventurer.

            BTW, the builder book Song and Silence lists damage
            from a torch. It does not present it as a new rule,
            however, but refers to it in such a way as to imply
            that the rule was found in the Core books while
            listing an alternate damage from the feat
            Pyro-something.

            So, somewhere in the core rules there is listed actual
            damage from a torch. I've been looking for it for
            months, though, and haven't found it.

            ryan
          • Kevin Elmore
            ... I d agree with you if we re talking about a balanced table. As conventions and game days have shown, you cannot always get a balanced table. You may have
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 1, 2002
              --- The Game <imthegame_rpga@...> wrote:
              > I still think that any table that can't get around DR
              > deserves to be TPK'd. DR is nothing. All it does is
              > keep the fighter's longsword or the barbarian's
              > battleaxe from cutting as deeply as it normally does.
              > All other damage (force from Magic Missiles, fire from
              > oil or Burning Hands, electricity from Shocking Grasp,
              > holy from Inflict Light Wounds, etc.) affects the
              > creature as normally.
              >

              I'd agree with you if we're talking about a balanced table.
              As conventions and game days have shown, you cannot always
              get a balanced table. You may have four fighters (and some
              fighters cannot bypass a 15 DR often), a cleric, and a
              wizard. The spell casters may have more diverse spells
              memorized than inflict or magic missile. In a situation
              where you don't have a chance to sleep, those are all the
              spells you get.

              And the PCs start off in a situation where combat is
              supposed to be unlikely. If I go to a party or business
              meeting, do I memorize magic missile, or do I memorize
              grease (great party game!)?

              If a home game group fails because of DR, then that's more
              understandable. If a Living game group fails because the
              author assumed it had the means to bypass an obstacle
              (whether it requires silver, a skilled rogue, or a cleric's
              turning), then that is just sloppy writing.

              Sure, a 14th-level party will have the +2 weapons to defeat
              a foe that requires it. But it's not reasonable to assume
              that someone will have the right tools at the right time he
              just came out of fighter school...especially if he spent
              his money on just the basic necessities.

              > And, if you don't have a flask of oil that you can
              > prepare to throw (doing 1d6 damage 50% of the time as
              > if Alchemist's Fire) you aren't a *real* adventurer.
              >

              I dunno about that. I personally would be opposed to
              carrying around that much oil on a daily basis. One trip,
              and oil goes everywhere. And even if you plan on being in
              combat areas, I'd be terrified to carry around oil when
              there are spells like burning hands and fireball.

              I don't believe there are rules about fuel combusting when
              hit with a fire spell (short of rolling a 1 on your save),
              but a real person would just feel nervous about carrying
              that. I know I would. And I design my characters to act
              like real people.

              > So, somewhere in the core rules there is listed actual
              > damage from a torch. I've been looking for it for
              > months, though, and haven't found it.

              That is good to know. Thanks for the info.

              Kevin


              =====
              "Well, you take the freshly shaved rat, and you marinade it in a puddle for a while."
              "Hmm, for how long?"
              "Until it's drowned. Then you stretch it out under a hot light bulb, then you get within dashing distance of the latrine, and then you scoff it right down."
              "So that's sauteing, and fricasseeing?"
              "Exactly the same, just a slightly bigger rat."
              --Blackadder Goes Forth

              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
              http://auctions.yahoo.com
            • brunerr
              One of the major aspects of adventuring is that you will encounter the unexpected. And either overcome it or flee from it as the situation merits. Frankly, if
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 1, 2002
                One of the major aspects of adventuring is that you will encounter the
                unexpected. And either overcome it or flee from it as the situation merits.
                Frankly, if authors only put challenges into mods that are easily met with
                standard equipment then D&D would become pretty tame. Finding innovative
                ways around a situation is a big part of why I like gaming. There are even
                (gasp) non-combat solutions to some situations.

                In my very first LG adventure (level 1), our party faced a villain with DR,
                none of us had silver or magic weapons, the mage hadn't memorized magic
                weapon or magic missile, the cleric couldn't inflict and nobody had a
                torch....if fact the tactical situation was such that only one party member
                could face him at a time. Results: no PC died, no PC was infected and the
                baddie was dead in 3 rounds. Lucky? Perhaps, however the party was
                successful because they found a way to prevail. And possibly because they
                remembered that it was a game, if your character dies either through bad
                luck or bad tactics....you learn something and just make a new one. You
                shouldn't be asking the authors to make the Flanaess safe for you, you are
                supposed to be making safe for everyone else.

                Rick Bruner



                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <ekiefer@...>
                To: <Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 3:42 PM
                Subject: Re: [Living_Greyhawk] Re: Flaming Clubs


                >
                > Would you have said that the first week you bought the PHB before you'd
                played
                > the game at all?
                >
                > A year into it now, yes, the ways around DR are more well known.
                >
                > But this specific example was for a table of 4 to 6 brand spanking new
                > characters from this time last year, when silver items were still "rare"
                enough
                > to be certed, and the item given out was only usable if you had the
                particular
                > missile weapon that it was good for. And for a number of those people,
                this was
                > their first chance to play 3E.
                >
                > S&S wasn't out. Pyro says you do 1 extra point of damage with fire, and
                says
                > fire normally does 1d6. (I'm meeting my group right after work, so I have
                it
                > here today.) It doesn't however say a torch does 1d6, but let's assume
                then
                > that it does 1d6 fire damage.
                >
                > Have a nice weekend everybody!
                >
                > Cordially,
                >
                > Eric
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > I still think that any table that can't get around DR
                > deserves to be TPK'd. DR is nothing. All it does is
                > keep the fighter's longsword or the barbarian's
                > battleaxe from cutting as deeply as it normally does.
                > All other damage (force from Magic Missiles, fire from
                > oil or Burning Hands, electricity from Shocking Grasp,
                > holy from Inflict Light Wounds, etc.) affects the
                > creature as normally.
                >
                > And, if you don't have a flask of oil that you can
                > prepare to throw (doing 1d6 damage 50% of the time as
                > if Alchemist's Fire) you aren't a *real* adventurer.
                >
                > BTW, the builder book Song and Silence lists damage
                > from a torch. It does not present it as a new rule,
                > however, but refers to it in such a way as to imply
                > that the rule was found in the Core books while
                > listing an alternate damage from the feat
                > Pyro-something.
                >
                > So, somewhere in the core rules there is listed actual
                > damage from a torch. I've been looking for it for
                > months, though, and haven't found it.
                >
                > ryan
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > If you have questions about 3E rules in Living Greyhawk please review the
                LG FAQ at http://living-greyhawk.com/knowledge before posting questions to
                the list.
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
              • John Scheibeler
                From: mkcottle Subject: [Living_Greyhawk] Re: Flaming Clubs I don t know if we re talking about the same module, but I went through that as first level, but
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 1, 2002
                  From: mkcottle
                  Subject: [Living_Greyhawk] Re: Flaming Clubs

                  I don't know if we're talking about the same module, but I went
                  through that as first level, but went in and "borrowed" the silver
                  candlestick holders from the local church. (read: thoughful DM)
                  I figured that if blunt candlestick damage was good enough for
                  Professor Plumb in the library...

                  I know of one table that just piled onto the DR baddie at the end and then
                  kept using coup de graces to get past DR. And there was another table that
                  piled onto him, tied him up with five sets of ropes, and drowned him.

                  There's ways past DR. You just have to think past the sword.

                  Bear
                  4 of 8
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