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Re: Magic item explosion???

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  • jbuenavides
    BRAVO!! BRAVO!! *APPLAUSE* I ve wanted to post something like this, but this does the job extremely well. Well worth using up one of my three posts just to
    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 1 8:59 AM
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      BRAVO!! BRAVO!! *APPLAUSE*

      I've wanted to post something like this, but this does the job
      extremely well. Well worth using up one of my three posts just to
      have the something repeated.

      Just a thought: The new system severely controls the rate at which
      characters gain wealth. However, some 591cy modules still have weird
      items. There are characters who ran Tristor and Temple of Elemental
      Evil and managed to get HUGE items. But these only affect a
      relatively small subset of the population, and the benefits are
      limited to a one-time gp outflow. Module writers and Event
      coordinators should now be forewarned of running modules that give
      too much gp reward.

      --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., "cripeny" <rick@c...> wrote:
      > I keep hearing about how the new RUP rules are going to see an
      > explosion of magic items, taking it from "low/middle fantasy"
      > to "ridiculous magic fantasy". How everyone is now going to have
      > every magic item they've ever wanted and how it ruins the "flavor"
      of
      > Greyhawk.
      >
      > Maybe I'm missing something, but here's how I see it:
      >
      > For new characters in the new system:
      > You start off gaining <300 gp per adventure. You can purchase
      minor
      > items (potions/scrolls), but that will reduce your buying power
      > later. You have to be 3rd level before owning a wand or magic
      > armor, and 4th level before owning a magic weapon. If you were to
      > get a wand, it would be only one wand every 3 adventures, a magic
      > armor would be one every 5 adventures, a magic weapon would be one
      > every 8 adventures. The timing is even more spaced out if you
      > purchase other consumables (potions/scrolls).
      >
      > For new characters in the old system:
      > I personally have seen several 1st and 2nd level characters running
      > around with magic wands, magic rapiers, magic shields, cloaks of
      > elvenkind, magic maces, magic glavies. 3rd and 4th level
      characters
      > often have several. All of these characters also had several
      utility
      > potions/scrolls.
      >
      > Which one of those sounds like a "higher" magic item world?
      >
      > For existing characters in the new system:
      > They start off by selling much of their extra equipment and gaining
      > the items they would rather have. They decrease their total value,
      > but increase their effectiveness. They may even be decreasing
      their
      > total ammount of magic items. The biggest problem is from people
      > selling the Ripper, but I think everyone acknowledges that that's a
      > problem. Outside that, how many characters have a large ammount of
      > disposable magic items? Characters will quickly settle into a new
      > level of wealth/magic items and then proceed to gain items at a
      > slower pace. They gain more money than before, but the items they
      > want are higher priced as well.
      >
      > For existing characters in the old system:
      > They modules continue to give out items at a rather accelerated
      rate,
      > as seen in the past. The only limitations on items are those found
      > in the modules, but any character can have as many as he can lay
      his
      > hands on. Magic items become much more of a tool for characters
      who
      > have the ability and are willing to travel and do lots of modules.
      > Those who are in low-density areas are left out in the cold.
      >
      > Of those two, which do you think will actually have a higher
      > accumlation of magic items?
      >
      >
      > Magic item creation feats in the new system:
      > Can increase your character's worth, thus increasing the magic
      > items. It does not become reasonably profitable until around 5th
      or
      > 6th level, but it can also reduce the price for your signature
      > items. It costs a feat, XP, TU, and still has other requirements
      > based on item.
      >
      > Magic item creation feats in the old system:
      > Were unusable for the most part.
      >
      > Of those two, which would you rather be under?
      >
      > I would posit that the new system is actually a decent attempt at
      > maintaining a low/middle fantasy setting. We will have some
      > difficulties at first as characters settle into a new wealth/magic
      > level, but after that things will be pretty stable.
      >
      >
      > And I'm always willing to admit I'm wrong. But I'd like to see why
      > people think that in the long run, this new system allows more
      magic
      > items than the old system did.
    • je55ter
      ... Personally, I think the issue is not so much the overall quantity of magic items. Its the easy access to specific items that is the problem. In a
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 1 11:21 AM
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        --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., "cripeny" <rick@c...> wrote:
        > I keep hearing about how the new RUP rules are going to see an
        > explosion of magic items, taking it from "low/middle fantasy"
        > to "ridiculous magic fantasy". How everyone is now going to have
        > every magic item they've ever wanted and how it ruins the "flavor"
        > of Greyhawk.
        >

        Personally, I think the issue is not so much the overall quantity of
        magic items. Its the easy access to specific items that is the
        problem. In a "low/middle fantasy" setting magic items should be
        rare and special, not the kind of thing you can find at the corner
        store.

        Giving access to everything in the DMG promotes character building
        exercises more than role-playing. It's a matter of making the most
        of what you find (role-playing) vs. buying that one item that you can
        get the most use out of (character building).

        Under the old system, if a character found an unusual magic item, he
        might say, "Hmmm, I wasn't expecting to find something like this.
        Maybe if I approach this situation a little differently next time, I
        might be able to make use of this new item. If not, I can always
        give it to my companion, who uses these sorts of things all the
        time." Under the new system, he's more likely to say, "This isn't
        really the kind of thing I'm interested in. When I get back to town,
        I'll just trade it in for a down payment on that cloak of nifyness
        +11 I've had my eye on."

        Now some people may LIKE the ability to build exactly the character
        they want with exactly the equipment they want, but this is NOT what
        LG was originally intended to be, as I understand it. This is
        supposed to be primarily a CORE RULES campaign, and as others have
        pointed out, the DMG specifically states that allowing characters to
        buy whatever they want is a bad idea.

        -=The Jesster: Gatchaba Goose=-
      • Tarnok
        ... characters ... utility ... Yes, but the characters with magic rapiers, shields, cloaks, (other high-priced/wonderous items) were a small part of the
        Message 3 of 26 , Feb 1 11:34 AM
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          > For new characters in the old system:
          > I personally have seen several 1st and 2nd level characters running
          > around with magic wands, magic rapiers, magic shields, cloaks of
          > elvenkind, magic maces, magic glavies. 3rd and 4th level
          characters
          > often have several. All of these characters also had several
          utility
          > potions/scrolls.

          Yes, but the characters with magic rapiers, shields, cloaks, (other
          high-priced/wonderous items) were a small part of the population.
          Some people may complain that that isn't fair, but at least it's
          realistic. In a world without a lot of magic only a few people will
          have "good" magic items.

          In a world with an excess of magic it is easy to buy whatever you
          want.

          In a world with little magic every bit you get is special.

          In a world with an excess of magic every fighter is equiped with a
          belt of potions of cure light.

          It's not a matter of how much an individual has, but of how many of
          the item exist. Even +1 swords used to be fairly impressive, now no
          one would even bat an eye at one. In a low magic world (in my
          opinion anyway) magic should always provoke a response of "Wow,
          cool." at the very least.

          Jeremy Patrick

          Cole's Axiom: The sum of the intelligence of the world is constant.
          The population is growing.
        • cripeny
          ... Can you please explain your rationale as to *how* characters (barring the Ripper) are going to buy lots of magic items to make it an excess of magic .
          Message 4 of 26 , Feb 1 12:00 PM
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            > In a world with an excess of magic it is easy to buy whatever you
            > want.

            Can you please explain your rationale as to *how* characters (barring
            the Ripper) are going to buy lots of magic items to make it
            an "excess of magic". Magic items are still going to be expensive,
            and you can only gain wealth so fast.

            Furthermore, several regions have already placed fairly severe
            restrictions on how high the purchase level can go in their regions.
            Please take that into account as well.

            Lastly, do you honestly feel that the current campaign doesn't
            already have an "excess of magic"? I certainly feel there is a lot
            of magic running around. Not a ridiculous ammount, but a lot.

            > In a world with little magic every bit you get is special.
            >
            > In a world with an excess of magic every fighter is equiped with a
            > belt of potions of cure light.
            >
            > It's not a matter of how much an individual has, but of how many of
            > the item exist. Even +1 swords used to be fairly impressive, now
            no
            > one would even bat an eye at one. In a low magic world (in my
            > opinion anyway) magic should always provoke a response of "Wow,
            > cool." at the very least.

            So you're saying your 15th level character is still going to
            go, "Wow, cool...I can really use this +1 longsword?" Your 18th
            level sorcerer is going to covet his scroll of magic missile (caster
            level 1)? That isn't the low/middle fantasy I'm used to playing,
            that's ridiculous.

            Furthermore, unless you are playing solely againts orcs, goblins, and
            giants (Hellllooooo, Geoff), you'll need better items eventually.
            Elementals, constructs, some undead and many other nasties require +1
            (or better) to hit. So if we're supposed to play in some
            ridiculously low powered system where magic items are extremely rare,
            we will get slaughtered. It's that or reduce all the encounter EL
            ratings to reflect the new (lower) level of magic.

            What do you plan on doing with all your acquired wealth, anyway?
            Sure, buying land and a house is fine for some people, but my
            character wouldn't want to settle down. He's and adventurer after
            all. So at about 10th level or so, when you've accumulated some
            20,000+gp, will you start complaining that you don't have anything to
            do with it? What's the point of having money if you can't spend it?

            Before you say that a "player-based" magic creation system would be
            better, and would still maintain the low level of magic, please
            provide some analysis to go along with it. Whenever I've seen player
            based magic item creation, things get out of hand quickly.
            Mages/clerics will happily give up some xp for more gold. Sure, 80xp
            for a gain of 1000gp? Absolutely. Now they have more money to make
            further magic items for themselves.

            At some point in your character's life, they will need to be able to
            use the wealth they've gained to improve their abilities. That is
            the nature of D&D. The RUP-3 actually gives a rather controlled
            method to that madness rather than letting it run willy-nilly in a
            purely player-based economy.
          • erian_7
            ... ... he ... I ... And this was one of the key weaknesses of the old system. had a silver axe, silver mace, magic rapier, or kukri. We
            Message 5 of 26 , Feb 1 2:15 PM
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              --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., "je55ter" <jesster@e...> wrote:

              <CUT>

              > Under the old system, if a character found an unusual magic item,
              he
              > might say, "Hmmm, I wasn't expecting to find something like this.
              > Maybe if I approach this situation a little differently next time,
              I
              > might be able to make use of this new item. If not, I can always
              > give it to my companion, who uses these sorts of things all the
              > time."

              And this was one of the key weaknesses of the old system. <Everyone>
              had a silver axe, silver mace, magic rapier, or kukri. We <all> then
              have to shape our characters to fit the few items that are available
              in the 24 or so mods we might get to play in a year. "Hmmm,
              everybody in the party's got a silver axe of Heironeous"--that's even
              weirder to me than people walking around with magic spiked chains in
              the Yeomanry! I don't think "Wow, I was expecting to find a bow
              worth something at some point. Been three years now and all I 've
              got are axes and longswords. Gee, I guess those ranged attack feats
              were a waste." is a very fun way to play. Sorry, that kind of system
              is just not for me, and thus, while I do have some problems with the
              RUPs, I greatly prefer this system to the cookie-cutter characters we
              would have ended up with when every always has the same items.


              Eric Williamson
              RPGA# 834242
            • azothmalishar
              Hello, I two problematic words for you: tiered treasure . With that being said, let me provide an illustration. During the 1st year of the campaign (which was
              Message 6 of 26 , Feb 1 2:35 PM
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                Hello,

                I two problematic words for you: "tiered treasure". With that
                being said, let me provide an illustration. During the 1st year of the
                campaign (which was longer than a year) my wizard spent his time
                units, reached halfway to sixth level and earned around 6,000 g.p. in
                wealth. He adventured in many regions and seemed to be around
                the typical wealth of most other characters I encountered.
                During this year I have played my wizard in ONE event at APL 6
                and earned almost 2,000 g.p.! I do not think that it takes a
                mathematician to see the major problem with the new system. Giving out
                the excessive amounts of wealth under the RUP's will lead to a major
                increase in character wealth which will increase the amount of magical
                items. Worse, as some have even mentioned, you can now purchase
                anything that is listed in the DMG after any core scenario (as long as
                you do not exceed your item cap) despite what your regional triad
                limits for its own regional events.
                When you add the two ingredients together, excessive wealth being
                doled out and increased access to any magic items, it seems obvious
                that this once low-fantasy campaign is likely to become the next
                monty-haul living campaign on the block. As a long-time RPGA member
                and former administrator of another living campaign, I have seen this
                formula ruin a campaign before. I just hope that my fears do not come
                to fruition.

                In my humble opinion,

                Larry Douglas



                --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., "cripeny" <rick@c...> wrote:
                >
                > > In a world with an excess of magic it is easy to buy whatever you
                > > want.
                >
                > Can you please explain your rationale as to *how* characters
                (barring
                > the Ripper) are going to buy lots of magic items to make it
                > an "excess of magic". Magic items are still going to be expensive,
                > and you can only gain wealth so fast.
                >
                > Furthermore, several regions have already placed fairly severe
                > restrictions on how high the purchase level can go in their regions.

                > Please take that into account as well.
                >
                > Lastly, do you honestly feel that the current campaign doesn't
                > already have an "excess of magic"? I certainly feel there is a lot
                > of magic running around. Not a ridiculous ammount, but a lot.
                >
                > > In a world with little magic every bit you get is special.
                > >
                > > In a world with an excess of magic every fighter is equiped with a
                > > belt of potions of cure light.
                > >
                > > It's not a matter of how much an individual has, but of how many
                of
                > > the item exist. Even +1 swords used to be fairly impressive, now
                > no
                > > one would even bat an eye at one. In a low magic world (in my
                > > opinion anyway) magic should always provoke a response of "Wow,
                > > cool." at the very least.
                >
                > So you're saying your 15th level character is still going to
                > go, "Wow, cool...I can really use this +1 longsword?" Your 18th
                > level sorcerer is going to covet his scroll of magic missile (caster
                > level 1)? That isn't the low/middle fantasy I'm used to playing,
                > that's ridiculous.
                >
                > Furthermore, unless you are playing solely againts orcs, goblins,
                and
                > giants (Hellllooooo, Geoff), you'll need better items eventually.
                > Elementals, constructs, some undead and many other nasties require
                +1
                > (or better) to hit. So if we're supposed to play in some
                > ridiculously low powered system where magic items are extremely
                rare,
                > we will get slaughtered. It's that or reduce all the encounter EL
                > ratings to reflect the new (lower) level of magic.
                >
                > What do you plan on doing with all your acquired wealth, anyway?
                > Sure, buying land and a house is fine for some people, but my
                > character wouldn't want to settle down. He's and adventurer after
                > all. So at about 10th level or so, when you've accumulated some
                > 20,000+gp, will you start complaining that you don't have anything
                to
                > do with it? What's the point of having money if you can't spend it?
                >
                > Before you say that a "player-based" magic creation system would be
                > better, and would still maintain the low level of magic, please
                > provide some analysis to go along with it. Whenever I've seen
                player
                > based magic item creation, things get out of hand quickly.
                > Mages/clerics will happily give up some xp for more gold. Sure,
                80xp
                > for a gain of 1000gp? Absolutely. Now they have more money to make
                > further magic items for themselves.
                >
                > At some point in your character's life, they will need to be able to
                > use the wealth they've gained to improve their abilities. That is
                > the nature of D&D. The RUP-3 actually gives a rather controlled
                > method to that madness rather than letting it run willy-nilly in a
                > purely player-based economy.
              • grimslade2001
                Larry, Just a quick question, How did you earn 2,000 GP from one APL 6 adventure? The max gold cap for APL 6 is 600 GP. Even a two round event would only net
                Message 7 of 26 , Feb 1 2:54 PM
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                  Larry,
                  Just a quick question, How did you earn 2,000 GP from one APL 6
                  adventure? The max gold cap for APL 6 is 600 GP. Even a two round
                  event would only net you 1,200 GP. Unless you played a CY591
                  scenario, in which case you could have played it last year before the
                  new RUPs.
                  Also, did you really think we would be playing five to ten years
                  earning 500gp or less a scenario? I never got that impression. What
                  gave you that impression? I'm seriously curious this is not a flame.
                  I just want to understand your argument better.
                  Brian Mahony

                  --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., "azothmalishar" <soldeth@a...> wrote:
                  > Hello,
                  >
                  > I two problematic words for you: "tiered treasure". With that
                  > being said, let me provide an illustration. During the 1st year of
                  the
                  > campaign (which was longer than a year) my wizard spent his time
                  > units, reached halfway to sixth level and earned around 6,000 g.p.
                  in
                  > wealth. He adventured in many regions and seemed to be around
                  > the typical wealth of most other characters I encountered.
                  > During this year I have played my wizard in ONE event at APL 6
                  > and earned almost 2,000 g.p.! I do not think that it takes a
                  > mathematician to see the major problem with the new system. Giving
                  out
                  > the excessive amounts of wealth under the RUP's will lead to a
                  major
                  > increase in character wealth which will increase the amount of
                  magical
                  > items. Worse, as some have even mentioned, you can now purchase
                  > anything that is listed in the DMG after any core scenario (as long
                  as
                  > you do not exceed your item cap) despite what your regional triad
                  > limits for its own regional events.
                  > When you add the two ingredients together, excessive wealth
                  being
                  > doled out and increased access to any magic items, it seems obvious
                  > that this once low-fantasy campaign is likely to become the next
                  > monty-haul living campaign on the block. As a long-time RPGA member
                  > and former administrator of another living campaign, I have seen
                  this
                  > formula ruin a campaign before. I just hope that my fears do not
                  come
                  > to fruition.
                  >
                  > In my humble opinion,
                  >
                  > Larry Douglas
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., "cripeny" <rick@c...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > In a world with an excess of magic it is easy to buy whatever
                  you
                  > > > want.
                  > >
                  > > Can you please explain your rationale as to *how* characters
                  > (barring
                  > > the Ripper) are going to buy lots of magic items to make it
                  > > an "excess of magic". Magic items are still going to be
                  expensive,
                  > > and you can only gain wealth so fast.
                  > >
                  > > Furthermore, several regions have already placed fairly severe
                  > > restrictions on how high the purchase level can go in their
                  regions.
                  >
                  > > Please take that into account as well.
                  > >
                  > > Lastly, do you honestly feel that the current campaign doesn't
                  > > already have an "excess of magic"? I certainly feel there is a
                  lot
                  > > of magic running around. Not a ridiculous ammount, but a lot.
                  > >
                  > > > In a world with little magic every bit you get is special.
                  > > >
                  > > > In a world with an excess of magic every fighter is equiped
                  with a
                  > > > belt of potions of cure light.
                  > > >
                  > > > It's not a matter of how much an individual has, but of how
                  many
                  > of
                  > > > the item exist. Even +1 swords used to be fairly impressive,
                  now
                  > > no
                  > > > one would even bat an eye at one. In a low magic world (in my
                  > > > opinion anyway) magic should always provoke a response of "Wow,
                  > > > cool." at the very least.
                  > >
                  > > So you're saying your 15th level character is still going to
                  > > go, "Wow, cool...I can really use this +1 longsword?" Your 18th
                  > > level sorcerer is going to covet his scroll of magic missile
                  (caster
                  > > level 1)? That isn't the low/middle fantasy I'm used to playing,
                  > > that's ridiculous.
                  > >
                  > > Furthermore, unless you are playing solely againts orcs, goblins,
                  > and
                  > > giants (Hellllooooo, Geoff), you'll need better items
                  eventually.
                  > > Elementals, constructs, some undead and many other nasties
                  require
                  > +1
                  > > (or better) to hit. So if we're supposed to play in some
                  > > ridiculously low powered system where magic items are extremely
                  > rare,
                  > > we will get slaughtered. It's that or reduce all the encounter
                  EL
                  > > ratings to reflect the new (lower) level of magic.
                  > >
                  > > What do you plan on doing with all your acquired wealth, anyway?
                  > > Sure, buying land and a house is fine for some people, but my
                  > > character wouldn't want to settle down. He's and adventurer
                  after
                  > > all. So at about 10th level or so, when you've accumulated some
                  > > 20,000+gp, will you start complaining that you don't have
                  anything
                  > to
                  > > do with it? What's the point of having money if you can't spend
                  it?
                  > >
                  > > Before you say that a "player-based" magic creation system would
                  be
                  > > better, and would still maintain the low level of magic, please
                  > > provide some analysis to go along with it. Whenever I've seen
                  > player
                  > > based magic item creation, things get out of hand quickly.
                  > > Mages/clerics will happily give up some xp for more gold. Sure,
                  > 80xp
                  > > for a gain of 1000gp? Absolutely. Now they have more money to
                  make
                  > > further magic items for themselves.
                  > >
                  > > At some point in your character's life, they will need to be able
                  to
                  > > use the wealth they've gained to improve their abilities. That
                  is
                  > > the nature of D&D. The RUP-3 actually gives a rather controlled
                  > > method to that madness rather than letting it run willy-nilly in
                  a
                  > > purely player-based economy.
                • Richard Pace
                  The total number of Axes of Heironeous is restricted by the number of tables where it was found and then diminished by the number of permanent deaths and
                  Message 8 of 26 , Feb 1 2:57 PM
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                    The total number of Axes of Heironeous is restricted by the number of tables where it was found and then diminished by the number of permanent deaths and liquidations of said item.

                    Both tables I was at (player at one, judge another) eventually sold the axe. That's two less for "everyone to have". I've seen a large number of SotRogues sold. Just because everybody knows about them or knows someone who has them doesn't make the presence of the item a indication of a cookie cutter campaign.

                    At no point can "everyone" ever have one. If more than a few people at a table have one that's just an aberration and a fluke of the Living system.

                    When every half-orc barbarian wears No-Name Brand Rhino-Hide and swings a No-Name Brand Greataxe that's when things get absurd.

                    Knowing that the treasure would favour the more common sort didn't stop a plethora of character types. I made a Greatsword using Ketite fighter and I never expected to find a special weapon in Ket, land of the scimitar and falchion. People were designing characters they wanted to play despite whatever magic was or would be available. Now we have people designing their characters based upon when magic they'll buy at what levels.

                    BTW, it hasn't been three years, but I've seen good bows in two separate events. Those ranged attack Feats aren't wasted if the character has to rely on their abilities more than on their magic -- which was the point of LG when it started.

                    Personal anecdote: I've only ever sat down with one other player who had the same item as my character (Rope of Climbing). I never sat with a SotR user. And I only shared tables with two AoH - a different table each.

                    Richard Pace 825128
                    1/3

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: erian_7
                    To: Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com



                    And this was one of the key weaknesses of the old system. <Everyone>
                    had a silver axe, silver mace, magic rapier, or kukri. We <all> then
                    have to shape our characters to fit the few items that are available
                    in the 24 or so mods we might get to play in a year. "Hmmm,
                    everybody in the party's got a silver axe of Heironeous"--that's even
                    weirder to me than people walking around with magic spiked chains in
                    the Yeomanry! I don't think "Wow, I was expecting to find a bow
                    worth something at some point. Been three years now and all I 've
                    got are axes and longswords. Gee, I guess those ranged attack feats
                    were a waste." is a very fun way to play. Sorry, that kind of system
                    is just not for me, and thus, while I do have some problems with the
                    RUPs, I greatly prefer this system to the cookie-cutter characters we
                    would have ended up with when every always has the same items.


                    Eric Williamson
                    RPGA# 834242




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • cripeny
                    ... the ... in ... It does not take a mathematician to see that the max gold piece increase for APL 6 is 600gp. So maybe you have a feat that allows you to
                    Message 9 of 26 , Feb 1 2:58 PM
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                      --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., "azothmalishar" <soldeth@a...> wrote:
                      > Hello,
                      >
                      > I two problematic words for you: "tiered treasure". With that
                      > being said, let me provide an illustration. During the 1st year of
                      the
                      > campaign (which was longer than a year) my wizard spent his time
                      > units, reached halfway to sixth level and earned around 6,000 g.p.
                      in
                      > wealth. He adventured in many regions and seemed to be around
                      > the typical wealth of most other characters I encountered.
                      > During this year I have played my wizard in ONE event at APL 6
                      > and earned almost 2,000 g.p.! I do not think that it takes a
                      > mathematician to see the major problem with the new system.

                      It does not take a mathematician to see that the max gold piece
                      increase for APL 6 is 600gp. So maybe you have a feat that allows
                      you to spend extra TU and xp to get extra cash? And maybe a workshop
                      that cost a pretty penny? What's the story? Or is this one of the
                      old pre-RUP3 modules?

                      If you're spending extra TU, xp, and possibly cash for a lab, then
                      sure, the money is fine. Magic item creation feats have *always*
                      been designed to give your character more wealth in one form or
                      another. The feats are available, and there is an attempt to balance
                      them.

                      If you're playing an old module, you can still distribute gold any
                      way you see fit (as far as I know), so you got a nice payout.

                      If it wasn't one of the above, it sounds like there's some funny
                      business going on.

                      Care to help me understand how you got 2000gp in an APL6 module?

                      Thanks.
                    • preserver3
                      ... ... then ... available ... even ... in ... feats ... system ... the ... we ... We were heading towards a system where-by the other players made
                      Message 10 of 26 , Feb 1 3:04 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., "erian_7" <eric_ang@b...> wrote:
                        >
                        > And this was one of the key weaknesses of the old system.
                        <Everyone>
                        > had a silver axe, silver mace, magic rapier, or kukri. We <all>
                        then
                        > have to shape our characters to fit the few items that are
                        available
                        > in the 24 or so mods we might get to play in a year. "Hmmm,
                        > everybody in the party's got a silver axe of Heironeous"--that's
                        even
                        > weirder to me than people walking around with magic spiked chains
                        in
                        > the Yeomanry! I don't think "Wow, I was expecting to find a bow
                        > worth something at some point. Been three years now and all I 've
                        > got are axes and longswords. Gee, I guess those ranged attack
                        feats
                        > were a waste." is a very fun way to play. Sorry, that kind of
                        system
                        > is just not for me, and thus, while I do have some problems with
                        the
                        > RUPs, I greatly prefer this system to the cookie-cutter characters
                        we
                        > would have ended up with when every always has the same items.
                        >



                        We were heading towards a system where-by the other players made the
                        unique magical items for us. It was going to be a "community" based
                        system where playing with other players was important to the feel and
                        survivability of the campaign--world wide campaigns do that-- the
                        goal, now, is to let every homebody, have whatever he wants and play
                        to his heart's content with everybody at home--let the conventions be
                        damned. The RPGA lets people move around, the activity centers were
                        draws for play and development, and I liked how eventually, each
                        region would be renown for their actual heroes, rather than some
                        cardboard cutouts of heroes produced in Dragon magazine and pasted to
                        everybody's binder.


                        We were close to a player driven campaign, which allowed metacampaign
                        groups help decide the fate of the regions, when they went to war or
                        otherwise. So what, the first year there were dozens of axes of
                        Hagron, but during the process, various adventurers sat at tables and
                        dreamed of what they really wanted and some even made deals with
                        other PC's, in chaarcter, for the chance at some item they could
                        create, and even negotiated now, what they'd pay for such items.

                        Then the winds of change swept through and made every PC an island
                        unto themselves. Stranded in some nightmarish mists which warps the
                        fabric of reality even further rather than promote any role-playing
                        or in game concept.

                        And i even had an idea to help out those travel starved regions...
                        retire regionals from other regions after two years and then release
                        them as core events. Charge 2 time units and let the players loose.

                        We could have even developed a specific home campaign separate from
                        living Greyhawk, which would have been an excellent place to market
                        those at home modules and to use these stupid adventure certs.

                        Everybody could have been a little happier, but now some of us are
                        just fed up.

                        Jason Starin
                      • erian_7
                        Perhaps that s a difference in regions. The axe is very common in my region, as is the mace and the rapier. Honestly what I see the least of is the kukri,
                        Message 11 of 26 , Feb 1 3:30 PM
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                          Perhaps that's a difference in regions. The axe is very common in my
                          region, as is the mace and the rapier. Honestly what I see the least
                          of is the kukri, likely because such an item fits in very few
                          character concepts of the folks I've played with.

                          From my experience, the axe is "found" by everyone that ever plays
                          that adventure. Not to hard to have multiples at any table, since
                          there's a limited number of mods you can play in a year, most people
                          play the Core (in my experience) mods, and so we've got 1000 or so
                          axes floating aound. Even if half are sold/lost, you've still got
                          500 of the same axe. It's not a cookie cutter campaign, it's cookie
                          cutter characters.

                          I truly don't understand the mentality of shaping your character
                          concept around whatever random items you happen to find. You've seen
                          good bows in 2 events, I only know of 1. To play an archer and
                          <never> get a shot at a good bow in 2 years of play (quite possible
                          under the old system if you don't play those few special mods) is
                          unsatisfying while every fighter is walking around with a longsword
                          (I've seen so many masterwork longswords and daggers its ridiculous).

                          I build my character concepts around roleplaying and stories--the
                          people I meet, the adventures I have. Items have very little to do
                          with that. Someone that's going to play a trite, no-brains, great
                          axe wielding half-orc barbarian is no more likely to role-play well
                          with less items than more. That player would still build the
                          character for combat rather than roleplaying. Again, an argument I
                          don't understand. I avoid these folks once I know who they are. I
                          did so before the rules changed, and I'll do so now.

                          This isn't a bad thing, but those in the "build characters around
                          random things we find" camp need to understand that not everyone
                          enjoys that style of role-playing. As I've said before, I don't want
                          5th level characters running around with +5 weapons, but having 10th
                          level characters running around in awe of a +1 weapon also doesn't
                          appeal to me. Heck, I could just play a historical RPG if I want
                          to "limit" magic.

                          Eric Williamson
                          RPGA# 834242


                          --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., "Richard Pace" <richardpace@s...> wrote:
                          > The total number of Axes of Heironeous is restricted by the number
                          of tables where it was found and then diminished by the number of
                          permanent deaths and liquidations of said item.
                          >
                          > Both tables I was at (player at one, judge another) eventually sold
                          the axe. That's two less for "everyone to have". I've seen a large
                          number of SotRogues sold. Just because everybody knows about them or
                          knows someone who has them doesn't make the presence of the item a
                          indication of a cookie cutter campaign.
                          >
                          > At no point can "everyone" ever have one. If more than a few
                          people at a table have one that's just an aberration and a fluke of
                          the Living system.
                          >
                          > When every half-orc barbarian wears No-Name Brand Rhino-Hide and
                          swings a No-Name Brand Greataxe that's when things get absurd.
                          >
                          > Knowing that the treasure would favour the more common sort didn't
                          stop a plethora of character types. I made a Greatsword using Ketite
                          fighter and I never expected to find a special weapon in Ket, land of
                          the scimitar and falchion. People were designing characters they
                          wanted to play despite whatever magic was or would be available. Now
                          we have people designing their characters based upon when magic
                          they'll buy at what levels.
                          >
                          > BTW, it hasn't been three years, but I've seen good bows in two
                          separate events. Those ranged attack Feats aren't wasted if the
                          character has to rely on their abilities more than on their magic --
                          which was the point of LG when it started.
                          >
                          > Personal anecdote: I've only ever sat down with one other player
                          who had the same item as my character (Rope of Climbing). I never
                          sat with a SotR user. And I only shared tables with two AoH - a
                          different table each.
                          >
                          > Richard Pace 825128
                          > 1/3
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: erian_7
                          > To: Living_Greyhawk@y...
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > And this was one of the key weaknesses of the old system.
                          <Everyone>
                          > had a silver axe, silver mace, magic rapier, or kukri. We <all>
                          then
                          > have to shape our characters to fit the few items that are
                          available
                          > in the 24 or so mods we might get to play in a year. "Hmmm,
                          > everybody in the party's got a silver axe of Heironeous"--that's
                          even
                          > weirder to me than people walking around with magic spiked chains
                          in
                          > the Yeomanry! I don't think "Wow, I was expecting to find a bow
                          > worth something at some point. Been three years now and all
                          I 've
                          > got are axes and longswords. Gee, I guess those ranged attack
                          feats
                          > were a waste." is a very fun way to play. Sorry, that kind of
                          system
                          > is just not for me, and thus, while I do have some problems with
                          the
                          > RUPs, I greatly prefer this system to the cookie-cutter
                          characters we
                          > would have ended up with when every always has the same items.
                          >
                          >
                          > Eric Williamson
                          > RPGA# 834242
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • azothmalishar
                          Hello, Just so that you know every module has its own APL cap- some higher than the standard and some lower. The event that I speak of was a 2-rounder, to be
                          Message 12 of 26 , Feb 1 3:45 PM
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                            Hello,

                            Just so that you know every module has its own APL cap- some
                            higher than the standard and some lower. The event that I speak of
                            was a 2-rounder, to be fair, but still that amount of wealth seems a
                            bit excessive for what this campaign was originally meant to be.

                            In my humble opinion,

                            Larry Douglas


                            --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., "grimslade2001" <brijill@u...> wrote:
                            > Larry,
                            > Just a quick question, How did you earn 2,000 GP from one APL 6
                            > adventure? The max gold cap for APL 6 is 600 GP. Even a two round
                            > event would only net you 1,200 GP. Unless you played a CY591
                            > scenario, in which case you could have played it last year before
                            the
                            > new RUPs.
                            > Also, did you really think we would be playing five to ten years
                            > earning 500gp or less a scenario? I never got that impression. What
                            > gave you that impression? I'm seriously curious this is not a
                            flame.
                            > I just want to understand your argument better.
                            > Brian Mahony
                            >
                            > --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., "azothmalishar" <soldeth@a...> wrote:
                            > > Hello,
                            > >
                            > > I two problematic words for you: "tiered treasure". With
                            that
                            > > being said, let me provide an illustration. During the 1st year
                            of
                            > the
                            > > campaign (which was longer than a year) my wizard spent his time
                            > > units, reached halfway to sixth level and earned around 6,000
                            g.p.
                            > in
                            > > wealth. He adventured in many regions and seemed to be around
                            > > the typical wealth of most other characters I encountered.
                            > > During this year I have played my wizard in ONE event at APL
                            6
                            > > and earned almost 2,000 g.p.! I do not think that it takes a
                            > > mathematician to see the major problem with the new system.
                            Giving
                            > out
                            > > the excessive amounts of wealth under the RUP's will lead to a
                            > major
                            > > increase in character wealth which will increase the amount of
                            > magical
                            > > items. Worse, as some have even mentioned, you can now purchase
                            > > anything that is listed in the DMG after any core scenario (as
                            long
                            > as
                            > > you do not exceed your item cap) despite what your regional triad
                            > > limits for its own regional events.
                            > > When you add the two ingredients together, excessive wealth
                            > being
                            > > doled out and increased access to any magic items, it seems
                            obvious
                            > > that this once low-fantasy campaign is likely to become the next
                            > > monty-haul living campaign on the block. As a long-time RPGA
                            member
                            > > and former administrator of another living campaign, I have seen
                            > this
                            > > formula ruin a campaign before. I just hope that my fears do not
                            > come
                            > > to fruition.
                            > >
                            > > In my humble opinion,
                            > >
                            > > Larry Douglas
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., "cripeny" <rick@c...> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > > In a world with an excess of magic it is easy to buy whatever
                            > you
                            > > > > want.
                            > > >
                            > > > Can you please explain your rationale as to *how* characters
                            > > (barring
                            > > > the Ripper) are going to buy lots of magic items to make it
                            > > > an "excess of magic". Magic items are still going to be
                            > expensive,
                            > > > and you can only gain wealth so fast.
                            > > >
                            > > > Furthermore, several regions have already placed fairly severe
                            > > > restrictions on how high the purchase level can go in their
                            > regions.
                            > >
                            > > > Please take that into account as well.
                            > > >
                            > > > Lastly, do you honestly feel that the current campaign doesn't
                            > > > already have an "excess of magic"? I certainly feel there is a
                            > lot
                            > > > of magic running around. Not a ridiculous ammount, but a lot.
                            > > >
                            > > > > In a world with little magic every bit you get is special.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > In a world with an excess of magic every fighter is equiped
                            > with a
                            > > > > belt of potions of cure light.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > It's not a matter of how much an individual has, but of how
                            > many
                            > > of
                            > > > > the item exist. Even +1 swords used to be fairly impressive,
                            > now
                            > > > no
                            > > > > one would even bat an eye at one. In a low magic world (in
                            my
                            > > > > opinion anyway) magic should always provoke a response
                            of "Wow,
                            > > > > cool." at the very least.
                            > > >
                            > > > So you're saying your 15th level character is still going to
                            > > > go, "Wow, cool...I can really use this +1 longsword?" Your
                            18th
                            > > > level sorcerer is going to covet his scroll of magic missile
                            > (caster
                            > > > level 1)? That isn't the low/middle fantasy I'm used to
                            playing,
                            > > > that's ridiculous.
                            > > >
                            > > > Furthermore, unless you are playing solely againts orcs,
                            goblins,
                            > > and
                            > > > giants (Hellllooooo, Geoff), you'll need better items
                            > eventually.
                            > > > Elementals, constructs, some undead and many other nasties
                            > require
                            > > +1
                            > > > (or better) to hit. So if we're supposed to play in some
                            > > > ridiculously low powered system where magic items are extremely
                            > > rare,
                            > > > we will get slaughtered. It's that or reduce all the encounter
                            > EL
                            > > > ratings to reflect the new (lower) level of magic.
                            > > >
                            > > > What do you plan on doing with all your acquired wealth,
                            anyway?
                            > > > Sure, buying land and a house is fine for some people, but my
                            > > > character wouldn't want to settle down. He's and adventurer
                            > after
                            > > > all. So at about 10th level or so, when you've accumulated
                            some
                            > > > 20,000+gp, will you start complaining that you don't have
                            > anything
                            > > to
                            > > > do with it? What's the point of having money if you can't
                            spend
                            > it?
                            > > >
                            > > > Before you say that a "player-based" magic creation system
                            would
                            > be
                            > > > better, and would still maintain the low level of magic, please
                            > > > provide some analysis to go along with it. Whenever I've seen
                            > > player
                            > > > based magic item creation, things get out of hand quickly.
                            > > > Mages/clerics will happily give up some xp for more gold.
                            Sure,
                            > > 80xp
                            > > > for a gain of 1000gp? Absolutely. Now they have more money to
                            > make
                            > > > further magic items for themselves.
                            > > >
                            > > > At some point in your character's life, they will need to be
                            able
                            > to
                            > > > use the wealth they've gained to improve their abilities. That
                            > is
                            > > > the nature of D&D. The RUP-3 actually gives a rather
                            controlled
                            > > > method to that madness rather than letting it run willy-nilly
                            in
                            > a
                            > > > purely player-based economy.
                          • azothmalishar
                            Hello, There was no funny business going on, except perhaps the new RUP wealth rules. I played the event under a triad member who was very careful to follow
                            Message 13 of 26 , Feb 1 4:00 PM
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                              Hello,

                              There was no "funny business" going on, except perhaps the new
                              RUP wealth rules. I played the event under a triad member who was
                              very careful to follow the rules. He examined each players Adventure
                              Cert carefully at the end of the slot before signing them.
                              Believe me the supposed "treasure cap" is a suggested limit
                              apparently as evidenced by WF. I cannot divulge any more information
                              as that would be a spoiler. However my character legitimately earned
                              1,636 g.p. at APL 6 without spending any additional time units beyond
                              paying for the module itself. Welcome to living back account.

                              In my humble opinion,

                              Larry Douglas




                              --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., "cripeny" <rick@c...> wrote:
                              > --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., "azothmalishar" <soldeth@a...> wrote:
                              > > Hello,
                              > >
                              > > I two problematic words for you: "tiered treasure". With
                              that
                              > > being said, let me provide an illustration. During the 1st year
                              of
                              > the
                              > > campaign (which was longer than a year) my wizard spent his time
                              > > units, reached halfway to sixth level and earned around 6,000
                              g.p.
                              > in
                              > > wealth. He adventured in many regions and seemed to be around
                              > > the typical wealth of most other characters I encountered.
                              > > During this year I have played my wizard in ONE event at APL
                              6
                              > > and earned almost 2,000 g.p.! I do not think that it takes a
                              > > mathematician to see the major problem with the new system.
                              >
                              > It does not take a mathematician to see that the max gold piece
                              > increase for APL 6 is 600gp. So maybe you have a feat that allows
                              > you to spend extra TU and xp to get extra cash? And maybe a
                              workshop
                              > that cost a pretty penny? What's the story? Or is this one of the
                              > old pre-RUP3 modules?
                              >
                              > If you're spending extra TU, xp, and possibly cash for a lab, then
                              > sure, the money is fine. Magic item creation feats have *always*
                              > been designed to give your character more wealth in one form or
                              > another. The feats are available, and there is an attempt to
                              balance
                              > them.
                              >
                              > If you're playing an old module, you can still distribute gold any
                              > way you see fit (as far as I know), so you got a nice payout.
                              >
                              > If it wasn't one of the above, it sounds like there's some funny
                              > business going on.
                              >
                              > Care to help me understand how you got 2000gp in an APL6 module?
                              >
                              > Thanks.
                            • brunerr
                              Eric, I never played Tristor so I never got Ripper. I did get the silver axe, but gave it to a priest of Heironeous, I could have had the
                              Message 14 of 26 , Feb 1 4:11 PM
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                                Eric,

                                I never played Tristor so I <not this everyone> never got Ripper. I did get
                                the silver axe, but gave it to a priest of Heironeous, I could have had the
                                masterwork long sword but my character uses a greatsword and would continue
                                to use it even if offered a magical long sword in exchange. Right before
                                RUP 2 & 3 were released our region had just completed a document that would
                                have made MI creation the sole province of the PC's. Activity centers could
                                only sell items made by PC's and would have been available to all gatherings
                                including game days. With a custom cert maker we had created, we had
                                devised a system whereby each created item would be unique, with the PC
                                purchasing the item able to specify decoration and appearance and that
                                description appearing on the cert issued. In addition, the price of items
                                would, be negotiable between buyer and seller. We had already taken the
                                step of using special materials as part of the treasure granted in
                                adventures, which could then be used in the MI creation process. You want
                                adamantite daggers? Find, trade for or buy the material, which would
                                involve using influence and favors. This would have been much closer to the
                                spirit of Core Rules and would have provided a natural curb on the inclusion
                                of magic items in the campaign. It would have given MI creators a better
                                role-playing hook for using their feats, it would have made for a more
                                cooperative atmosphere between those with the creation feats and those who
                                do not have them and it would have provided a stronger meta-gaming structure
                                for the entire region. And as this system was entirely within the hands of
                                the triad, It would have also given the Triad and therefore the region's
                                authors a much better picture of how PC's were equipped, so that challenge
                                levels could be adjusted accordingly.

                                The RUP's eliminate something that was going to be an exciting aspect of the
                                campaign. And in the end the RUP's do no more to eliminate cheating,
                                balance power between PC's or maintain the original concept of LG then what
                                was already in place or was being developed by the players.

                                Rick Bruner


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "erian_7" <eric_ang@...>
                                To: <Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 5:15 PM
                                Subject: [Living_Greyhawk] Re: Magic item explosion???


                                > --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., "je55ter" <jesster@e...> wrote:
                                >
                                > <CUT>
                                >
                                > > Under the old system, if a character found an unusual magic item,
                                > he
                                > > might say, "Hmmm, I wasn't expecting to find something like this.
                                > > Maybe if I approach this situation a little differently next time,
                                > I
                                > > might be able to make use of this new item. If not, I can always
                                > > give it to my companion, who uses these sorts of things all the
                                > > time."
                                >
                                > And this was one of the key weaknesses of the old system. <Everyone>
                                > had a silver axe, silver mace, magic rapier, or kukri. We <all> then
                                > have to shape our characters to fit the few items that are available
                                > in the 24 or so mods we might get to play in a year. "Hmmm,
                                > everybody in the party's got a silver axe of Heironeous"--that's even
                                > weirder to me than people walking around with magic spiked chains in
                                > the Yeomanry! I don't think "Wow, I was expecting to find a bow
                                > worth something at some point. Been three years now and all I 've
                                > got are axes and longswords. Gee, I guess those ranged attack feats
                                > were a waste." is a very fun way to play. Sorry, that kind of system
                                > is just not for me, and thus, while I do have some problems with the
                                > RUPs, I greatly prefer this system to the cookie-cutter characters we
                                > would have ended up with when every always has the same items.
                                >
                                >
                                > Eric Williamson
                                > RPGA# 834242
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > If you have questions about 3E rules in Living Greyhawk please review the
                                LG FAQ at http://living-greyhawk.com/knowledge before posting questions to
                                the list.
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Gavhriel
                                He earned it the same way that every person at my table (APL 8) earned over 2800 gp each in a certain year 592 2-rounder. Between the 6 of us we received over
                                Message 15 of 26 , Feb 1 7:17 PM
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                                  He earned it the same way that every person at my table (APL 8) earned over 2800 gp each in a certain year 592 2-rounder. Between the 6 of us we received over 17,000 gp. You don't even want to know what the GP reward for playing it at APL 10. ALf wuz here.
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: grimslade2001
                                  To: Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 5:54 PM
                                  Subject: [Living_Greyhawk] Re: Magic item explosion???


                                  Larry,
                                  Just a quick question, How did you earn 2,000 GP from one APL 6
                                  adventure? The max gold cap for APL 6 is 600 GP. Even a two round
                                  event would only net you 1,200 GP. Unless you played a CY591
                                  scenario, in which case you could have played it last year before the
                                  new RUPs.
                                  Also, did you really think we would be playing five to ten years
                                  earning 500gp or less a scenario? I never got that impression. What
                                  gave you that impression? I'm seriously curious this is not a flame.
                                  I just want to understand your argument better.
                                  Brian Mahony

                                  --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., "azothmalishar" <soldeth@a...> wrote:
                                  > Hello,
                                  >
                                  > I two problematic words for you: "tiered treasure". With that
                                  > being said, let me provide an illustration. During the 1st year of
                                  the
                                  > campaign (which was longer than a year) my wizard spent his time
                                  > units, reached halfway to sixth level and earned around 6,000 g.p.
                                  in
                                  > wealth. He adventured in many regions and seemed to be around
                                  > the typical wealth of most other characters I encountered.
                                  > During this year I have played my wizard in ONE event at APL 6
                                  > and earned almost 2,000 g.p.! I do not think that it takes a
                                  > mathematician to see the major problem with the new system. Giving
                                  out
                                  > the excessive amounts of wealth under the RUP's will lead to a
                                  major
                                  > increase in character wealth which will increase the amount of
                                  magical
                                  > items. Worse, as some have even mentioned, you can now purchase
                                  > anything that is listed in the DMG after any core scenario (as long
                                  as
                                  > you do not exceed your item cap) despite what your regional triad
                                  > limits for its own regional events.
                                  > When you add the two ingredients together, excessive wealth
                                  being
                                  > doled out and increased access to any magic items, it seems obvious
                                  > that this once low-fantasy campaign is likely to become the next
                                  > monty-haul living campaign on the block. As a long-time RPGA member
                                  > and former administrator of another living campaign, I have seen
                                  this
                                  > formula ruin a campaign before. I just hope that my fears do not
                                  come
                                  > to fruition.
                                  >
                                  > In my humble opinion,
                                  >
                                  > Larry Douglas
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., "cripeny" <rick@c...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > In a world with an excess of magic it is easy to buy whatever
                                  you
                                  > > > want.
                                  > >
                                  > > Can you please explain your rationale as to *how* characters
                                  > (barring
                                  > > the Ripper) are going to buy lots of magic items to make it
                                  > > an "excess of magic". Magic items are still going to be
                                  expensive,
                                  > > and you can only gain wealth so fast.
                                  > >
                                  > > Furthermore, several regions have already placed fairly severe
                                  > > restrictions on how high the purchase level can go in their
                                  regions.
                                  >
                                  > > Please take that into account as well.
                                  > >
                                  > > Lastly, do you honestly feel that the current campaign doesn't
                                  > > already have an "excess of magic"? I certainly feel there is a
                                  lot
                                  > > of magic running around. Not a ridiculous ammount, but a lot.
                                  > >
                                  > > > In a world with little magic every bit you get is special.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > In a world with an excess of magic every fighter is equiped
                                  with a
                                  > > > belt of potions of cure light.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > It's not a matter of how much an individual has, but of how
                                  many
                                  > of
                                  > > > the item exist. Even +1 swords used to be fairly impressive,
                                  now
                                  > > no
                                  > > > one would even bat an eye at one. In a low magic world (in my
                                  > > > opinion anyway) magic should always provoke a response of "Wow,
                                  > > > cool." at the very least.
                                  > >
                                  > > So you're saying your 15th level character is still going to
                                  > > go, "Wow, cool...I can really use this +1 longsword?" Your 18th
                                  > > level sorcerer is going to covet his scroll of magic missile
                                  (caster
                                  > > level 1)? That isn't the low/middle fantasy I'm used to playing,
                                  > > that's ridiculous.
                                  > >
                                  > > Furthermore, unless you are playing solely againts orcs, goblins,
                                  > and
                                  > > giants (Hellllooooo, Geoff), you'll need better items
                                  eventually.
                                  > > Elementals, constructs, some undead and many other nasties
                                  require
                                  > +1
                                  > > (or better) to hit. So if we're supposed to play in some
                                  > > ridiculously low powered system where magic items are extremely
                                  > rare,
                                  > > we will get slaughtered. It's that or reduce all the encounter
                                  EL
                                  > > ratings to reflect the new (lower) level of magic.
                                  > >
                                  > > What do you plan on doing with all your acquired wealth, anyway?
                                  > > Sure, buying land and a house is fine for some people, but my
                                  > > character wouldn't want to settle down. He's and adventurer
                                  after
                                  > > all. So at about 10th level or so, when you've accumulated some
                                  > > 20,000+gp, will you start complaining that you don't have
                                  anything
                                  > to
                                  > > do with it? What's the point of having money if you can't spend
                                  it?
                                  > >
                                  > > Before you say that a "player-based" magic creation system would
                                  be
                                  > > better, and would still maintain the low level of magic, please
                                  > > provide some analysis to go along with it. Whenever I've seen
                                  > player
                                  > > based magic item creation, things get out of hand quickly.
                                  > > Mages/clerics will happily give up some xp for more gold. Sure,
                                  > 80xp
                                  > > for a gain of 1000gp? Absolutely. Now they have more money to
                                  make
                                  > > further magic items for themselves.
                                  > >
                                  > > At some point in your character's life, they will need to be able
                                  to
                                  > > use the wealth they've gained to improve their abilities. That
                                  is
                                  > > the nature of D&D. The RUP-3 actually gives a rather controlled
                                  > > method to that madness rather than letting it run willy-nilly in
                                  a
                                  > > purely player-based economy.


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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • grimslade2001
                                  Ding-Dang-doo! What is the point of gold caps if their negotiable? I hope that it was poor editing of the scenario at WF or a misinterpretation of the reward.
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Feb 1 8:14 PM
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                                    Ding-Dang-doo! What is the point of gold caps if their negotiable? I
                                    hope that it was poor editing of the scenario at WF or a
                                    misinterpretation of the reward. The whole shaky crux of RUP3 is
                                    founded on those caps. Is this how treasure was divided at most of
                                    the tables? If you were at WF and played the 2 rounder, please chime
                                    in.
                                    Brian Mahony

                                    P.S. Thanks for a very civil post Larry. Too many people on this list
                                    are getting tee-ed off over nothing. It's nice to have just plain old
                                    statements. -B

                                    --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., "Gavhriel" <gavhriel@s...> wrote:
                                    > He earned it the same way that every person at my table (APL 8)
                                    earned over 2800 gp each in a certain year 592 2-rounder. Between
                                    the 6 of us we received over 17,000 gp. You don't even want to know
                                    what the GP reward for playing it at APL 10. ALf wuz here.
                                  • rutrow424@aol.com
                                    Well, I played the APL 6 of Brendigun s Brood. Though we retrieved well beyond the cap in treasure (per our DM), we were only rightly rewarded the max (843gp
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Feb 1 8:18 PM
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                                      Well, I played the APL 6 of Brendigun's Brood. Though we retrieved well
                                      beyond the cap in treasure (per our DM), we were only rightly rewarded the
                                      max (843gp IIRC). So I would think Larry's group had a DM that misread the
                                      rules. At least, that is my hope.

                                      Mike Rutkowski
                                      2/3


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • kevin_l_hartman
                                      I guess people still don t realize that different modules have different XP/GP caps. The example Adventure Cert in RUP-3 is just an example. Gavhriel s group
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Feb 1 10:19 PM
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                                        I guess people still don't realize that different modules have
                                        different XP/GP caps. The example Adventure Cert in RUP-3 is just an
                                        example. Gavhriel's group played a 2-round module at APL 8 and got
                                        over 2800gp each. Their cap must be a little over 1400 per TU for
                                        that module, only 200 over the example Cert. Not that outlandish,
                                        compared to the example.
                                        Also note that the example is weird at APL 4 and 6. I think we might
                                        see the weird jumps between some levels of difficulty just because
                                        the opponents jump in power and treasure. So that Larry got almost
                                        2000gp in a 2-round APL 6 turns out to about 1000gp per TU, which
                                        doesn't seem to outlandish either if the example we've been given has
                                        a less regular progression than usual.
                                        Anyway, play several modules and then analyze the rewards to get a
                                        better idea of what's actually being given out. Right now our
                                        understanding is too limited.

                                        Kevin

                                        --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., "Gavhriel" <gavhriel@s...> wrote:
                                        > He earned it the same way that every person at my table (APL 8)
                                        earned over 2800 gp each in a certain year 592 2-rounder. Between
                                        the 6 of us we received over 17,000 gp. You don't even want to know
                                        what the GP reward for playing it at APL 10. ALf wuz here.
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: grimslade2001
                                        >
                                        > Larry,
                                        > Just a quick question, How did you earn 2,000 GP from one APL 6
                                        > adventure? The max gold cap for APL 6 is 600 GP. Even a two round
                                        > event would only net you 1,200 GP. Unless you played a CY591
                                        > scenario, in which case you could have played it last year before
                                        > the new RUPs.
                                        >
                                        > --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., "azothmalishar" <soldeth@a...> wrote:
                                        > > Hello,
                                        > >
                                        > > During this year I have played my wizard in ONE event at
                                        > > APL 6 and earned almost 2,000 g.p.!
                                      • azothmalishar
                                        Hello, Actually in that module I played APL 2 and received way under the listed APL cap for that level of play (according to the RUP example of Mialee or the
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Feb 2 10:52 AM
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                                          Hello,

                                          Actually in that module I played APL 2 and received way under the
                                          listed APL cap for that level of play (according to the RUP example
                                          of Mialee or the Dragon list). The module that had excessive rewards
                                          was the other event. Also with the new Adventure Certs the max gold
                                          for each APL is clearly listed on the cert. We did not exceed the max
                                          cap for APL and we had a triad member who judged us and who knew the
                                          rules well.

                                          Sincerely,

                                          Larry Douglas


                                          --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., rutrow424@a... wrote:
                                          > Well, I played the APL 6 of Brendigun's Brood. Though we retrieved
                                          well
                                          > beyond the cap in treasure (per our DM), we were only rightly
                                          rewarded the
                                          > max (843gp IIRC). So I would think Larry's group had a DM that
                                          misread the
                                          > rules. At least, that is my hope.
                                          >
                                          > Mike Rutkowski
                                          > 2/3
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • azothmalishar
                                          Hello, Actually in that module I played APL 2 and received way under the listed APL cap for that level of play (according to the RUP example of Mialee or the
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Feb 2 10:52 AM
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Hello,

                                            Actually in that module I played APL 2 and received way under the
                                            listed APL cap for that level of play (according to the RUP example
                                            of Mialee or the Dragon list). The module that had excessive rewards
                                            was the other event. Also with the new Adventure Certs the max gold
                                            for each APL is clearly listed on the cert. We did not exceed the max
                                            cap for APL and we had a triad member who judged us and who knew the
                                            rules well.

                                            Sincerely,

                                            Larry Douglas


                                            --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., rutrow424@a... wrote:
                                            > Well, I played the APL 6 of Brendigun's Brood. Though we retrieved
                                            well
                                            > beyond the cap in treasure (per our DM), we were only rightly
                                            rewarded the
                                            > max (843gp IIRC). So I would think Larry's group had a DM that
                                            misread the
                                            > rules. At least, that is my hope.
                                            >
                                            > Mike Rutkowski
                                            > 2/3
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Richard Pace
                                            You do, now, have to take into account that the unique items that one person per table could get as a cert before now can belong to everyone at the table. If
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Feb 2 11:34 AM
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                                              You do, now, have to take into account that the unique items that one person per table could get as a cert before now can belong to everyone at the table.

                                              If The Axe of Hagron were on an adventure cert, every character with an inclination and the gold could buy one. I don't see how AdCerts reduce the propagation of named items in the campaign -- especially when they increase it.

                                              I'm not certain where you get the idea I advocate developing character concept around found treasure. Sure -- I know some people do that, but I was using a greatsword in Ket with no idea whether I'd ever get a masterwork or magical one. I might have obtained one by now if I hadn't found one earlier, but, even without one I still would have turned down the very powerful dwarven axe from a recent Keoland event because it didn't suit my character concept.

                                              I think character concept should be independent of treasure found, under AdCerts, it becomes interdependent. I don't think that's a good thing.

                                              Depending on the region, it makes sense that there's a large number of a type of weapon common to a region -- I'm sure there are numerous bows available in Highfolk, for example. I have no doubt that in Greyhawk you would see myriad masterwork longswords, maces of Pelor and daggers. Some items have to be common because they're commonly used. The magical hand crossbows, composite strength bows and spiked-chains should be the hard to find items because they serve more specialised needs.

                                              I'm not certain you're making any point by trying to connect a character-concept by found items camp (which I don't think exists in any meaningful way) with the middle fantasy camp.

                                              I haven't seen anybody drop a character concept in favour of a magic item. Some could pick up a Feat -- such as EWP:kukri, but that still wouldn't be altering character concept.

                                              . . . Unless you think character concept is the gear he carries?

                                              The seeming randomness of the treasure in old-style LG made character concept MORE important and independent of whatever items were found. You designed the character to be able to do certain things within his abilities from the start -- magic is just gravy.

                                              You could be a vary dangerous archer and effective character without a magic bow -- I don't even see how possessing a magic bow is even important to the way you'd role-play such a character.

                                              Now, with AdCerts, you can determine your signature weapon is a masterwork composite bow at, what -- second level, upgrade to a +x strength bow at third, upgrade to a +1 strength bow at fourth, etc. . It becomes a given that you'll have such items at your earliest convenience with no real satisfaction is _finally_ finding that cherished item. It becomes a numbers game to get the best item at the earliest opportunity.

                                              Bah. That's not role-playing, that's wargaming

                                              Richard Pace 1/3
                                              825128
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: erian_7
                                              To: Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: February 1, 2002 6:30 PM
                                              Subject: [Living_Greyhawk] Re: Magic item explosion???


                                              Perhaps that's a difference in regions. The axe is very common in my
                                              region, as is the mace and the rapier. Honestly what I see the least
                                              of is the kukri, likely because such an item fits in very few
                                              character concepts of the folks I've played with.

                                              From my experience, the axe is "found" by everyone that ever plays
                                              that adventure. Not to hard to have multiples at any table, since
                                              there's a limited number of mods you can play in a year, most people
                                              play the Core (in my experience) mods, and so we've got 1000 or so
                                              axes floating aound. Even if half are sold/lost, you've still got
                                              500 of the same axe. It's not a cookie cutter campaign, it's cookie
                                              cutter characters.

                                              I truly don't understand the mentality of shaping your character
                                              concept around whatever random items you happen to find. You've seen
                                              good bows in 2 events, I only know of 1. To play an archer and
                                              <never> get a shot at a good bow in 2 years of play (quite possible
                                              under the old system if you don't play those few special mods) is
                                              unsatisfying while every fighter is walking around with a longsword
                                              (I've seen so many masterwork longswords and daggers its ridiculous).

                                              I build my character concepts around roleplaying and stories--the
                                              people I meet, the adventures I have. Items have very little to do
                                              with that. Someone that's going to play a trite, no-brains, great
                                              axe wielding half-orc barbarian is no more likely to role-play well
                                              with less items than more. That player would still build the
                                              character for combat rather than roleplaying. Again, an argument I
                                              don't understand. I avoid these folks once I know who they are. I
                                              did so before the rules changed, and I'll do so now.

                                              This isn't a bad thing, but those in the "build characters around
                                              random things we find" camp need to understand that not everyone
                                              enjoys that style of role-playing. As I've said before, I don't want
                                              5th level characters running around with +5 weapons, but having 10th
                                              level characters running around in awe of a +1 weapon also doesn't
                                              appeal to me. Heck, I could just play a historical RPG if I want
                                              to "limit" magic.

                                              Eric Williamson
                                              RPGA# 834242




                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Stephen Mumford
                                              ... Well, then, here s one -- me. One of my PCs started out with a particular character concept in mind, but after finding a rather interesting cert, I
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Feb 2 8:56 PM
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                                                > I haven't seen anybody drop a character concept in favour of a magic item.

                                                Well, then, here's one -- me. One of my PCs started out with a particular
                                                character concept in mind, but after finding a rather interesting cert, I
                                                completely revised the entire idea I had for that character.

                                                > ... Unless you think character concept is the gear he carries?

                                                Hardly. However, unique items and such can often be the catalyst for
                                                thinking about something in a new way. If you get to pick and choose known
                                                quantities from a set menu, you'll tend to choose only those things that
                                                reinforce the initial concept. However, if you are occasionally handed
                                                something which you had never even thought about before, then that may spur
                                                you into reevaluating your character in this new light. Maybe nothing will
                                                change, but occasionally they might.

                                                Personally, I think that's much more fun that simply laying out what you
                                                need to have and what you need to acquire to be that 15th-level
                                                whatever-you-want-to-play, and then orienting your brand new character to
                                                fit into that mold.

                                                Steve
                                              • grimslade2001
                                                Kevin, Okay, that would explain Larry and Gahvriel s experience, but my question would be Why? Why is their a different xp/gp cap for a similar challenge. If
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Feb 2 10:07 PM
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                                                  Kevin,
                                                  Okay, that would explain Larry and Gahvriel's experience, but my
                                                  question would be Why? Why is their a different xp/gp cap for a
                                                  similar challenge. If APL is designed to represent levels of
                                                  challenge, why have different caps as rewards for the same level of
                                                  challenge?
                                                  I know there are multiple mistakes on the sample Adv. Cert.
                                                  The caps could be mistakes as well. I guess that is what I want to
                                                  know, what are the real caps then? I don't believe that different
                                                  events at the same APL should have different caps. We only have two
                                                  CY592 scenarios to compare, barring a clarification from Dave C.,
                                                  We'll have to wait for more scenarios to be released to know.
                                                  Brian

                                                  --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., "kevin_l_hartman" <kevin_hartman@m...>
                                                  wrote:
                                                  > I guess people still don't realize that different modules have
                                                  > different XP/GP caps. The example Adventure Cert in RUP-3 is just
                                                  an
                                                  > example. Gavhriel's group played a 2-round module at APL 8 and got
                                                  > over 2800gp each. Their cap must be a little over 1400 per TU for
                                                  > that module, only 200 over the example Cert. Not that outlandish,
                                                  > compared to the example.
                                                  > Also note that the example is weird at APL 4 and 6. I think we
                                                  might
                                                  > see the weird jumps between some levels of difficulty just because
                                                  > the opponents jump in power and treasure. So that Larry got almost
                                                  > 2000gp in a 2-round APL 6 turns out to about 1000gp per TU, which
                                                  > doesn't seem to outlandish either if the example we've been given
                                                  has
                                                  > a less regular progression than usual.
                                                  > Anyway, play several modules and then analyze the rewards to get a
                                                  > better idea of what's actually being given out. Right now our
                                                  > understanding is too limited.
                                                  >
                                                  > Kevin
                                                • kevin_l_hartman
                                                  ... There are bound to be slight variations in reward in any given adventure. Prehaps a little more XP and a little less gold or vice versa. And different
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Feb 2 10:25 PM
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                                                    --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., "grimslade2001" <brijill@u...> wrote:
                                                    > Why is their a different xp/gp cap for a
                                                    > similar challenge. If APL is designed to represent levels of
                                                    > challenge, why have different caps as rewards for the same level of
                                                    > challenge?

                                                    There are bound to be slight variations in reward in any given
                                                    adventure. Prehaps a little more XP and a little less gold or vice
                                                    versa. And different levels get different encounters, and if treasure
                                                    is based on those encounters rather than a set amount the party gets
                                                    for that level every time, then it will vary. To really know how it
                                                    works we would need to look at the writer's guidelines under APL.

                                                    Kevin
                                                  • scon40
                                                    ... There is some variation between the xp and gp caps in the two 592 CY scenarios released at WF. One was a two rounder, so the xp and gp rewards are roughly
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Feb 3 7:55 AM
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                                                      --- In Living_Greyhawk@y..., "grimslade2001" <brijill@u...> wrote:
                                                      > Kevin,
                                                      > Okay, that would explain Larry and Gahvriel's experience, but my
                                                      > question would be Why? Why is their a different xp/gp cap for a
                                                      > similar challenge. If APL is designed to represent levels of
                                                      > challenge, why have different caps as rewards for the same level of
                                                      > challenge?
                                                      > I know there are multiple mistakes on the sample Adv. Cert.
                                                      > The caps could be mistakes as well. I guess that is what I want to
                                                      > know, what are the real caps then? I don't believe that different
                                                      > events at the same APL should have different caps. We only have two
                                                      > CY592 scenarios to compare, barring a clarification from Dave C.,
                                                      > We'll have to wait for more scenarios to be released to know.
                                                      > Brian

                                                      There is some variation between the xp and gp caps in the two 592 CY
                                                      scenarios released at WF. One was a two rounder, so the xp and gp
                                                      rewards are roughly double those in the one rounder. The small
                                                      variation at each APL is do to the challenges (and thus rewards) not
                                                      scaling completely linearly. But they are fairly close to one
                                                      another, and the rewards in each scenario do reflect the challenges
                                                      within them.

                                                      -Steven Conforti
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