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Re: Medik a Dwarven Cleric of Moradin

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  • Mark Evans
    I guess but I know those who played in those two modules and It still did not help them. ... the ... encounters ... are ... or
    Message 1 of 19 , Jan 31, 2001
      I guess but I know those who played in those two modules and It still
      did not help them.





      --- In livingworld@y..., "Hunter Godfrey" <huntgod1@b...> wrote:
      > Well I have yet to see a GM (aside from myself) that actually read
      the
      > fricking module before running it.
      >
      > It is a brutal adventure but if run as indicated the individual
      encounters
      > are manageable. Though the module becomes infinitely easier if you
      are
      > mostly 2nd level and have the "item" from either "What Lies Beneath"
      or
      > "Masking the Truth".
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: <yodaid764@a...>
      > To: <livingworld@y...>
      > Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2001 11:47 AM
      > Subject: Re: [livingworld] Medik a Dwarven Cleric of Moradin
      >
      >
      > > what a TPK in River of Blood...nah, that could never happen. :)
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
    • Hunter Godfrey
      In fairness the Warhammer now does a reasonable amount of damage and is no longer a sacrifice to take. 1d8 is comparable to most other weapons, were it still
      Message 2 of 19 , Feb 1, 2001
        In fairness the Warhammer now does a reasonable amount of damage and is no
        longer a "sacrifice" to take.

        1d8 is comparable to most other weapons, were it still a 1d4 weapon I would
        concur with you.


        ----------------------------------
        Hunter Godfrey
        Lion and Unicorn, Inc.
        huntgod1@...

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: brianforester <BrianForester@...>
        To: <livingworld@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 1:02 PM
        Subject: RE: [livingworld] Greyhawk Moradin vs. FR Moradin


        > This originally came up because a friend of mine created a dwarven cleric
        of
        > Moradin. It was important to him that he wield his god's weapon so he used
        > his one feat at first level to take the martial weapon profiency
        (Warhammer)
        > feat. I respect him for that: he chose a role-playing aspect over
        > min-maxing his character.
        >
        > I agree with you about the stupidity of letting an 'arms race' start with
        > the various rules. I'm concerned that this will inevitably happen with
        > feats and perhaps weapons.
        >
        > In fact, I've been fairly disgusted with some of the reasoning that WotC
        > made in the defense of the mercurial greatsword. The question was asked:
        > "Isn't the Mercurial Greatsword unbalancing?" The answer came back "Some
        > weapon has to be at the top of the heap after all". I'm sure the next
        > designer who tops the Mercurial Greatsword will also use the same
        reasoning.
        >
        > This was a from a question and answer with Jason Carl, a designer for the
        > sword and fist
        > supplement:
        > Q: Why is the mercurial greatsword so unbalanced? It has one of the
        highest
        > damage and crit modifiers there are. Exotic weapons usually have only one
        > jump from a non-exotic one, so I was wonderingwhy the big gap on the jump.
        > A: The mercurial greatsword does 2d8 damage and has a Crit threshhold of
        x4.
        > Is that "unbalanced?" That's a question for your DM to answer. It's
        > certainly a very strong weapon. When we design new material for D&D, it's
        > inevitable that some game elements -- feats, prestige classes, weapons,
        > spells, etc. -- will be more appealing than others. Some weapon has to be
        at
        > the top of the heap, after all.
        > (reference: http://www.rpgplanet.com/dnd3e/3eoldnews18.htm)
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Penn Davies [mailto:seule@...]
        > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 2:35 PM
        > To: livingworld@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [livingworld] Greyhawk Moradin vs. FR Moradin
        >
        >
        > At 12:09 PM 2/1/01 -0500, you wrote:
        > >I was looking over the Forgotten Realms survival
        > >guide and noticed that the FR version of the Dwarf
        > >god Moradin has added War to the list of domains
        > >that Moradin has. Paladins of Moradin can also
        > >freely multi-class to Fighter and back to Paladin.
        > <snip>
        >
        > The entire FR/LC campaign has always been high fantasy, which can be seen
        > by some of the absolutely hideously disgusting speciality priest variants
        > released under 2nd ed. I encourage the PTB to keep Greyhawk more
        balanced,
        > without the power spirals that FR seems to be prone to.
        > Thankfully, they seem to be doing this already. Good job.
        >
        > --Penn
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Hunter Godfrey
        Heh, of course it is broken , in all fairness if you were to parry or strike another weapon with one that had a hollowed reservoir (for the mercury to shift)
        Message 3 of 19 , Feb 1, 2001
          Heh, of course it is "broken", in all fairness if you were to parry or
          strike another weapon with one that had a hollowed reservoir (for the
          mercury to shift) it should be broken very quickly :-p

          I list Mercurial weapons under my list of "Goofy Ass Stuff" and in my games
          "Goofy Ass Stuff" is restricted, whereas silver items are not :-p

          Hmmm, anyone know what the Fortitude save would be for inadvertent mercury
          poisoning :-)

          ----------------------------------
          Hunter Godfrey
          Lion and Unicorn, Inc.
          huntgod1@...

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Tyler Bannister <tyler@...>
          To: <livingworld@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 1:38 PM
          Subject: RE: [livingworld] Greyhawk Moradin vs. FR Moradin


          > > This was a from a question and answer with Jason Carl, a designer for
          the
          > > sword and fist supplement:
          > > Q: Why is the mercurial greatsword so unbalanced? It has one of the
          > > highest damage and crit modifiers there are. Exotic weapons usually have
          > > only one jump from a non-exotic one, so I was wonderingwhy the big gap
          on
          > > the jump.
          > > A: The mercurial greatsword does 2d8 damage and has a Crit threshhold of
          > > x4. Is that "unbalanced?" That's a question for your DM to answer. It's
          > > certainly a very strong weapon. When we design new material for D&D,
          it's
          > > inevitable that some game elements -- feats, prestige classes, weapons,
          > > spells, etc. -- will be more appealing than others. Some weapon
          > > has to be at the top of the heap, after all.
          > > (reference: http://www.rpgplanet.com/dnd3e/3eoldnews18.htm)
          >
          > Now the greatsword is obviously one of the best weapon in existence,
          unlike
          > practically every other published weapon, it has multiple improvements
          over
          > the martial equivalent. The scythe does 2d4 with a x4 crit modifier, and
          > the greatsword does 2d6 with a 19-20 x2 modifier. Obviously the mercurial
          > greatsword is two die steps better than the scythe and it's one die step
          > better than the greatsword and one crit step better than the greatsword.
          > That's just wrong.
          > Fortunately errata can be send to drgndale@.... If you want to
          > report that the greatsword is broken you can e-mail a brief description of
          > the problem there. You won't get an answer but it will be compiled into
          the
          > list of stuff for review. If you want an answer, you should send your
          > comments to custserv@....
          >
          > --
          > Tyler
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • brianforester
          I was looking over the Forgotten Realms survival guide and noticed that the FR version of the Dwarf god Moradin has added War to the list of domains that
          Message 4 of 19 , Feb 1, 2001
            I was looking over the Forgotten Realms survival
            guide and noticed that the FR version of the Dwarf
            god Moradin has added War to the list of domains
            that Moradin has. Paladins of Moradin can also
            freely multi-class to Fighter and back to Paladin.

            Any plans to adopt some of these changes and/or
            additions? Considering that some people play
            in both LC and LG are we going to have to deal
            with diverging rules?

            This leads to another thought. Just how much
            freedom does the Circle have to rule '0' something?
          • Penn Davies
            ... The entire FR/LC campaign has always been high fantasy, which can be seen by some of the absolutely hideously disgusting speciality priest variants
            Message 5 of 19 , Feb 1, 2001
              At 12:09 PM 2/1/01 -0500, you wrote:
              >I was looking over the Forgotten Realms survival
              >guide and noticed that the FR version of the Dwarf
              >god Moradin has added War to the list of domains
              >that Moradin has. Paladins of Moradin can also
              >freely multi-class to Fighter and back to Paladin.
              <snip>

              The entire FR/LC campaign has always been high fantasy, which can be seen
              by some of the absolutely hideously disgusting speciality priest variants
              released under 2nd ed. I encourage the PTB to keep Greyhawk more balanced,
              without the power spirals that FR seems to be prone to.
              Thankfully, they seem to be doing this already. Good job.

              --Penn
            • brianforester
              This originally came up because a friend of mine created a dwarven cleric of Moradin. It was important to him that he wield his god s weapon so he used his one
              Message 6 of 19 , Feb 1, 2001
                This originally came up because a friend of mine created a dwarven cleric of
                Moradin. It was important to him that he wield his god's weapon so he used
                his one feat at first level to take the martial weapon profiency (Warhammer)
                feat. I respect him for that: he chose a role-playing aspect over
                min-maxing his character.

                I agree with you about the stupidity of letting an 'arms race' start with
                the various rules. I'm concerned that this will inevitably happen with
                feats and perhaps weapons.

                In fact, I've been fairly disgusted with some of the reasoning that WotC
                made in the defense of the mercurial greatsword. The question was asked:
                "Isn't the Mercurial Greatsword unbalancing?" The answer came back "Some
                weapon has to be at the top of the heap after all". I'm sure the next
                designer who tops the Mercurial Greatsword will also use the same reasoning.

                This was a from a question and answer with Jason Carl, a designer for the
                sword and fist
                supplement:
                Q: Why is the mercurial greatsword so unbalanced? It has one of the highest
                damage and crit modifiers there are. Exotic weapons usually have only one
                jump from a non-exotic one, so I was wonderingwhy the big gap on the jump.
                A: The mercurial greatsword does 2d8 damage and has a Crit threshhold of x4.
                Is that "unbalanced?" That's a question for your DM to answer. It's
                certainly a very strong weapon. When we design new material for D&D, it's
                inevitable that some game elements -- feats, prestige classes, weapons,
                spells, etc. -- will be more appealing than others. Some weapon has to be at
                the top of the heap, after all.
                (reference: http://www.rpgplanet.com/dnd3e/3eoldnews18.htm)


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Penn Davies [mailto:seule@...]
                Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 2:35 PM
                To: livingworld@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [livingworld] Greyhawk Moradin vs. FR Moradin


                At 12:09 PM 2/1/01 -0500, you wrote:
                >I was looking over the Forgotten Realms survival
                >guide and noticed that the FR version of the Dwarf
                >god Moradin has added War to the list of domains
                >that Moradin has. Paladins of Moradin can also
                >freely multi-class to Fighter and back to Paladin.
                <snip>

                The entire FR/LC campaign has always been high fantasy, which can be seen
                by some of the absolutely hideously disgusting speciality priest variants
                released under 2nd ed. I encourage the PTB to keep Greyhawk more balanced,
                without the power spirals that FR seems to be prone to.
                Thankfully, they seem to be doing this already. Good job.

                --Penn
              • Tyler Bannister
                ... Now the greatsword is obviously one of the best weapon in existence, unlike practically every other published weapon, it has multiple improvements over the
                Message 7 of 19 , Feb 1, 2001
                  > This was a from a question and answer with Jason Carl, a designer for the
                  > sword and fist supplement:
                  > Q: Why is the mercurial greatsword so unbalanced? It has one of the
                  > highest damage and crit modifiers there are. Exotic weapons usually have
                  > only one jump from a non-exotic one, so I was wonderingwhy the big gap on
                  > the jump.
                  > A: The mercurial greatsword does 2d8 damage and has a Crit threshhold of
                  > x4. Is that "unbalanced?" That's a question for your DM to answer. It's
                  > certainly a very strong weapon. When we design new material for D&D, it's
                  > inevitable that some game elements -- feats, prestige classes, weapons,
                  > spells, etc. -- will be more appealing than others. Some weapon
                  > has to be at the top of the heap, after all.
                  > (reference: http://www.rpgplanet.com/dnd3e/3eoldnews18.htm)

                  Now the greatsword is obviously one of the best weapon in existence, unlike
                  practically every other published weapon, it has multiple improvements over
                  the martial equivalent. The scythe does 2d4 with a x4 crit modifier, and
                  the greatsword does 2d6 with a 19-20 x2 modifier. Obviously the mercurial
                  greatsword is two die steps better than the scythe and it's one die step
                  better than the greatsword and one crit step better than the greatsword.
                  That's just wrong.
                  Fortunately errata can be send to drgndale@.... If you want to
                  report that the greatsword is broken you can e-mail a brief description of
                  the problem there. You won't get an answer but it will be compiled into the
                  list of stuff for review. If you want an answer, you should send your
                  comments to custserv@....

                  --
                  Tyler
                • Russ Taylor
                  On 2/1/01 1:38 PM, Tyler Bannister (tyler@nas.net) wrote ... Yes. I ve heard arguments that it isn t better than a greatsword because it takes a feat, and
                  Message 8 of 19 , Feb 1, 2001
                    On 2/1/01 1:38 PM, Tyler Bannister (tyler@...) wrote

                    > Now the greatsword is obviously one of the best weapon in existence, unlike
                    >practically every other published weapon, it has multiple improvements over
                    >the martial equivalent. The scythe does 2d4 with a x4 crit modifier, and
                    >the greatsword does 2d6 with a 19-20 x2 modifier. Obviously the mercurial
                    >greatsword is two die steps better than the scythe and it's one die step
                    >better than the greatsword and one crit step better than the greatsword.
                    >That's just wrong.

                    Yes. I've heard arguments that it isn't better than a greatsword because
                    it takes a feat, and dismantled them with a spreadsheet: even if you
                    allow the extra feat, the x4 crit (TWO steps better, not one) puts it
                    over the top.

                    Greatsword with specialization: 2d6+2, 19-20 crit
                    Mercurial sword with exotic feat: 2d8, x4 crit

                    They both get the same average damage, but an x4 crit is equivalent to a
                    18-20 crit, not a 19-20. And non-fighters can use the mercurial weapon to
                    get the extra damage (they can't specialize).

                    In other words, if you want to use a two-handed weapon and are a fighter,
                    there is no advantage other than commonality to picking the greatsword.
                    The mercurial weapon's feat will do more extra damage than any weapon
                    feat -- focus, specialization, improved critical -- could get you.

                    And what's up with the Fullblade, supposedly a bigger greatsword, having
                    worse damage? (1d12 vs. 2d6). I kind of wonder if Jason Carl is
                    math-deficient, since he also did the brilliant move of making a fighter
                    class (halfling outrider) that fights worse than a mage.

                    --
                    Russ Taylor (http://www.cmc.net/~rtaylor/)
                    CMC Tech Support Manager

                    "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up"
                  • Mark Evans
                    I want to know does your character weld a greatsword. Mine does and how many times do I crit next to never. Now it it broken NO. Look at the Great AXE same
                    Message 9 of 19 , Feb 1, 2001
                      I want to know does your character weld a greatsword. Mine does and
                      how many times do I crit next to never. Now it it broken NO. Look at
                      the Great AXE same damage and one less crit number. and you can have
                      this at first level. So you lose to use these weapons you LOSE AC
                      bonus of a shield. The trade off is there and it is completely fair.
                      Besides you cannot have mercurial greatsword for at least another 6
                      months because Co6 has said any addon book must be reveiwed for 6
                      months.

                      Words from Winter Fantasy meeting.


                      MArk Evans
                      "Alweays bet on Black"
                      Your odds are better









                      --- In livingworld@y..., "Tyler Bannister" <tyler@n...> wrote:
                      > > This was a from a question and answer with Jason Carl, a designer
                      for the
                      > > sword and fist supplement:
                      > > Q: Why is the mercurial greatsword so unbalanced? It has one of
                      the
                      > > highest damage and crit modifiers there are. Exotic weapons
                      usually have
                      > > only one jump from a non-exotic one, so I was wonderingwhy the
                      big gap on
                      > > the jump.
                      > > A: The mercurial greatsword does 2d8 damage and has a Crit
                      threshhold of
                      > > x4. Is that "unbalanced?" That's a question for your DM to
                      answer. It's
                      > > certainly a very strong weapon. When we design new material for
                      D&D, it's
                      > > inevitable that some game elements -- feats, prestige classes,
                      weapons,
                      > > spells, etc. -- will be more appealing than others. Some weapon
                      > > has to be at the top of the heap, after all.
                      > > (reference: http://www.rpgplanet.com/dnd3e/3eoldnews18.htm)
                      >
                      > Now the greatsword is obviously one of the best weapon in
                      existence, unlike
                      > practically every other published weapon, it has multiple
                      improvements over
                      > the martial equivalent. The scythe does 2d4 with a x4 crit
                      modifier, and
                      > the greatsword does 2d6 with a 19-20 x2 modifier. Obviously the
                      mercurial
                      > greatsword is two die steps better than the scythe and it's one die
                      step
                      > better than the greatsword and one crit step better than the
                      greatsword.
                      > That's just wrong.
                      > Fortunately errata can be send to drgndale@w... If you want
                      to
                      > report that the greatsword is broken you can e-mail a brief
                      description of
                      > the problem there. You won't get an answer but it will be compiled
                      into the
                      > list of stuff for review. If you want an answer, you should send
                      your
                      > comments to custserv@w...
                      >
                      > --
                      > Tyler
                    • Russ Taylor
                      On 2/1/01 10:10 PM, Mark Evans (tralix@hotmail.com) wrote ... The mercurial greatsword is damage 2d8, crit x4, exotic The regular greatsword is damage 2d6,
                      Message 10 of 19 , Feb 2, 2001
                        On 2/1/01 10:10 PM, Mark Evans (tralix@...) wrote

                        >I want to know does your character weld a greatsword. Mine does and
                        >how many times do I crit next to never. Now it it broken NO. Look at
                        >the Great AXE same damage and one less crit number. and you can have
                        >this at first level. So you lose to use these weapons you LOSE AC
                        >bonus of a shield. The trade off is there and it is completely fair.
                        >Besides you cannot have mercurial greatsword for at least another 6
                        >months because Co6 has said any addon book must be reveiwed for 6
                        >months.

                        The mercurial greatsword is damage 2d8, crit x4, exotic
                        The regular greatsword is damage 2d6, crit 19-20
                        The greataxe is damage 1d12, crit x3

                        Crits of x2 and 20 are equivalent in terms of extra damage
                        Crits of x3 and 19-20 are also equivalent
                        And crits of x4 and 18-20 are equivalent

                        On this scale, the greataxe is the worst weapon (.5 less damage than a
                        greatsword, same crit class), and the mercurial greatsword is the best
                        weapon (2 more damage than a greatsword, better crit class).

                        The exotic weapon feat involved doesn't balance the mercurial weapon,
                        because it gives +2 damage AND a better crit range, making the feat a
                        wash (it'd cost a feat to get the greatsword damage as high as the
                        mercurial sword, and the crit range would STILL be inferior to the
                        mercurial weapon).

                        --
                        Russ Taylor (http://www.cmc.net/~rtaylor/)
                        CMC Tech Support Manager

                        "I'm a reasonable man." -- Evil, Time Bandits
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