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Animal Companions

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  • Jay A. Hafner, DC
    Are druids, etc. allowed to take their animal companions on adventures? Are they allowed to use them as hit point shields by placing them between the monsters
    Message 1 of 16 , Oct 1, 2000
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      Are druids, etc. allowed to take their animal companions on
      adventures?

      Are they allowed to use them as hit point shields by placing them
      between the monsters and themselves?



      Jay H
      COU TRIAD
    • Max Huntsman
      Of course, but only using half-orc barbarians and dwarves with intelligence less than 8.
      Message 2 of 16 , Oct 1, 2000
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        Of course, but only using half-orc barbarians and dwarves with
        intelligence less than 8.

        --- In livingworld@egroups.com, "Jay A. Hafner, DC " <jayhafner@u...>
        wrote:
        > Are druids, etc. allowed to take their animal companions on
        > adventures?
        >
        > Are they allowed to use them as hit point shields by placing them
        > between the monsters and themselves?
        >
        >
        >
        > Jay H
        > COU TRIAD
      • Tyler Bannister
        ... Yes. ... Animal companions misused this way have a tendency to run away, but yes. ... -- Tyler
        Message 3 of 16 , Oct 1, 2000
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          > Are druids, etc. allowed to take their animal companions on
          > adventures?

          Yes.

          > Are they allowed to use them as hit point shields by placing them
          > between the monsters and themselves?

          Animal companions misused this way have a tendency to run away, but yes.

          > Jay H
          > COU TRIAD

          --
          Tyler
        • Max Huntsman
          If the half-orc would do it, why not the wolf? Loyal dogs stand between their masters and danger all the time. Even most (but not all) animal lovers value
          Message 4 of 16 , Oct 1, 2000
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            If the half-orc would do it, why not the wolf?

            Loyal dogs stand between their masters and danger all the time. Even
            most (but not all) animal lovers value their own lives and those of
            their human offspring over the lives of their pets. Having an animal
            stand between you and danger so you can get a spell off to save both
            your hides sounds like teamwork to me.


            Sure, it can be abused. If a character doesn't care about their
            animal companions, they should run away. The rule of thumb I'd use
            is the one 3e gives for hirelings. Don't let them face a threat that
            will toast them. If an orc is coming at you, a dog is a fine
            shield. But a 10th level druid that places 20 badgers between
            himself and the oncoming dragon in the hopes he'll buy an extra round
            and maybe get a +1 circumstance bonus to trip the dragon due to all
            those greasy intestines he's slipping on ... well, that's not very
            druidic, is it?

            Along that vein, I'd like to see a TU cost to replacing or gaining
            new animal companions to provide for their training. That would be a
            simple mechanic to make druids treat their "friends" like friends.

            > > Are they allowed to use them as hit point shields by placing them
            > > between the monsters and themselves?
            >
            > Animal companions misused this way have a tendency to run away,
            but yes.
            >
          • David Argall
            ... They had better be. One of the prime abilities of the class. ... Not if they want to get any replacement animals. See P. 173 PH, If you are not willing to
            Message 5 of 16 , Oct 2, 2000
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              --- "Jay A. Hafner, DC " <jayhafner@...> wrote:
              > Are druids, etc. allowed to take their animal
              > companions on
              > adventures?
              They had better be. One of the prime abilities of
              the class.

              >
              > Are they allowed to use them as hit point shields by
              > placing them
              > between the monsters and themselves?
              Not if they want to get any replacement animals.
              See P. 173 PH, "If you are not willing to treat the
              animal as a friend(..use it to set off traps), the
              spell fails."
              So if you have plans to use the animal as a hit
              point shield [& no druid should indulge in such
              heresy], the spell won't work. You can probably get
              by with getting the animal to jump to your rescue when
              you are in desperate straits. Friends do that sort of
              thing, at least sometimes. But if you are going to
              put the beast in danger, you had better be able to
              demonstrate that the relationship between the 2 of you
              is still beneficial to the animal despite that. [Maybe
              you have promised to raise the entire litter of a wolf
              couple, which will take mucho TU if the wolves bite
              it.]

              > Jay H
              > COU TRIAD
              >


              =====
              Yours for less government

              David Argall
            • keoland-poc@home.com
              ... a ... At this time the only way for a person with the Animal Friendship spell to add or replace an animal companion is for the animal to appear in a
              Message 6 of 16 , Oct 2, 2000
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                >
                > Along that vein, I'd like to see a TU cost to replacing or gaining
                > new animal companions to provide for their training. That would be
                a
                > simple mechanic to make druids treat their "friends" like friends.
                >

                At this time the only way for a person with the Animal Friendship
                spell to add or replace an animal companion is for the animal to
                appear in a sanctioned event AND in the treasure summary from the
                event, unless the Circle/HQ has changed this ruling.

                Frank C Timar
                Keoland POC
              • James Kittock
                ... I disagree that the rule is clear, and I also disagree with your particular interpretation of the rule. So we re on the same page, so to speak, the
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 27, 2001
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                  > There are rules in place. See Player's Handbook p68 "Handle Animal".
                  > It states quite clearly that it takes 2 months to train an animal. It
                  > even states that the Animal Friendship spell only allows you to
                  > avoid the roll. There is no debate. It is a clear rule.

                  I disagree that the rule is clear, and I also disagree with
                  your particular interpretation of the rule. So we're on the
                  same page, so to speak, the relevant wording in the 'handle
                  animal' skill description on p. 69 is: "You can teach simple
                  tricks ("sit", "stay", etc.) to an animal that is the subject
                  of an 'animal friendship' spell without needing a skill
                  check...".

                  I can see how you might interpret "without needing a skill
                  check" as "without a roll", but it seems to me that it means
                  "without using the 'handle animal' skill".

                  I think the latter interpretation is quite strongly supported
                  by the 'animal friendship' spell description (p. 173), since
                  it does not mention the 'handle animal' skill except in
                  reference to more complex tasks.

                  Speaking of which, I can't see how you can require 8 TUs
                  dedicated to training an animal. Training an animal requires
                  three hours per day, not eight or twelve hours per day.
                  If an adventurer was careful to take time to do the three
                  hours of training per day, I see no reason why they couldn't
                  train an animal over the course of 8 TUs of adventures.
                  If you did dedicate 8 TUs to training animals, then you
                  should be allowed to train 3 animals in that time as per the
                  skill description.

                  (There's another issue that 1 TU does not exactly equal a
                  week of game time, so equating 2 months to 8 TUs is somewhat
                  arbitrary, but I'm not sure what to do about it.)


                  > Opinions are great. I've heard lots of opinions from Triad members
                  > re: animal companions. However, when I DM, I follow the existing
                  > rules, not opinions. My blanket statement "had better have 8 TUs"
                  > comes from p68. It is a rule, not my opinion. If HQ wishes to change
                  > the rule tomorrow, great. Otherwise, everyone has to live with it -
                  > my druid included. 8 TUs for training my leopard.

                  Again, as discussed above, I think your interpretation is
                  wrong. If you have evidence to the contrary (e.g., e-mail
                  from custserv@... or RPGA HQ or Co6), I would of
                  course be open to reading it.

                  IMO, nobody could begin play, not even a druid, with an
                  animal trained to do "complex" tricks. They should be
                  able to start with one trained to do simple tasks as per
                  the (erratad) spell 'animal friendship' ("typical tasks
                  include attacking, coming when called, guarding a place,
                  and protecting a character). A character multi-classing
                  nto druid should be able to, during play, befriend an animal
                  of appropriate HD (subject to what is available in their
                  region) and teach it simple tasks as per the spell description
                  at no TU cost. Either way, getting the animal to do
                  complex tasks should require in-game time equivalent to
                  2 months, with the three hours a day spent training and
                  the required skill check.

                  I think the more general thing that is important to keep
                  in mind here is that the rules are not always 100% clear,
                  and many times interpretations are "opinions" not "fact".
                  So we all need to be open to the possibility that we do
                  not have the "one true interpretation" in our own minds.

                  --james
                • J P
                  Okay folks, I need a little help. See, I m having trouble reconcilling the RUP and the Players Handbook. Perhaps I m just slow. My character is a level 4
                  Message 8 of 16 , Dec 21, 2002
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                    Okay folks, I need a little help. See, I'm having trouble reconcilling the
                    RUP and the Players Handbook. Perhaps I'm just slow. My character is a level
                    4 Ranger and I'm ready to cast 'animal friendship' and get an animal
                    companion. My question is this: what is the most hit dice my (long term)
                    companion can have? Is it my caster level (2) or is it twice my caster level
                    (2*2=4) or what? Thanks for your responces everyone.


                    JP

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                  • Steven Metke
                    ... Since, by virtue of being an LG charecter, you are considered to be traveling, your maximum hit dice for the creatures you may start a module with is your
                    Message 9 of 16 , Dec 21, 2002
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                      On Sun, 22 Dec 2002, J P wrote:

                      > Okay folks, I need a little help. See, I'm having trouble reconcilling the
                      > RUP and the Players Handbook. Perhaps I'm just slow. My character is a level
                      > 4 Ranger and I'm ready to cast 'animal friendship' and get an animal
                      > companion. My question is this: what is the most hit dice my (long term)
                      > companion can have? Is it my caster level (2) or is it twice my caster level
                      > (2*2=4) or what? Thanks for your responces everyone.

                      Since, by virtue of being an LG charecter, you are considered to be
                      traveling, your maximum hit dice for the creatures you may start a module
                      with is your caster level.

                      --
                      Steven E. Metke - Reality's just a bunch of bits
                    • Jeffrey C. Harris
                      An adventuring character may have his or her own caster level in HD of animal companions. These will travel with you from slot to slot in Living Greyhawk.
                      Message 10 of 16 , Dec 22, 2002
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                        An adventuring character may have his or her own caster level in HD of
                        animal companions. These will travel with you from slot to slot in
                        Living Greyhawk. Additionally, you may prepare the animal friendship
                        spell, and cast it during an adventure on animals specifically listed in
                        the scenario to a maximum of twice your caster level in HD, but those
                        additional companions leave at the end of the slot.

                        Jeffrey

                        J P wrote:

                        > Okay folks, I need a little help. See, I'm having trouble
                        > reconcilling the
                        > RUP and the Players Handbook. Perhaps I'm just slow. My character is a
                        > level
                        > 4 Ranger and I'm ready to cast 'animal friendship' and get an animal
                        > companion. My question is this: what is the most hit dice my (long
                        > term)
                        > companion can have? Is it my caster level (2) or is it twice my caster
                        > level
                        > (2*2=4) or what? Thanks for your responces everyone.
                        >
                        >
                        > JP
                        >
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                      • Edward Grant <grantedw@msu.edu>
                        ... reconcilling the ... is a level ... animal ... (long term) ... caster level ... module ... now a Tamer of Beasts can also have animal conpains equal to
                        Message 11 of 16 , Dec 25, 2002
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                          --- In Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com, Steven Metke <grymor@r...>
                          wrote:
                          > On Sun, 22 Dec 2002, J P wrote:
                          >
                          > > Okay folks, I need a little help. See, I'm having trouble
                          reconcilling the
                          > > RUP and the Players Handbook. Perhaps I'm just slow. My character
                          is a level
                          > > 4 Ranger and I'm ready to cast 'animal friendship' and get an
                          animal
                          > > companion. My question is this: what is the most hit dice my
                          (long term)
                          > > companion can have? Is it my caster level (2) or is it twice my
                          caster level
                          > > (2*2=4) or what? Thanks for your responces everyone.
                          >
                          > Since, by virtue of being an LG charecter, you are considered to be
                          > traveling, your maximum hit dice for the creatures you may start a
                          module
                          > with is your caster level.
                          >
                          > --
                          > Steven E. Metke - Reality's just a bunch of bits

                          now a Tamer of Beasts can also have animal conpains equal to twice
                          his caster level and twice his Tamer of beast level, Tamer of Beasts
                          caster level goes up every 3 levels, 3 6 9. So a 7 level druid and a
                          third level Tamer of beast could normaly have 8*2=14 from caster
                          level and 3*2=6 from Tamer of Beast levels for a total of 22 hd of
                          conpaniopns. Now in LG how many of these 22 HD can you have at the
                          start of the adventure?

                          Ed Grant
                          masternone@...
                        • Steven Metke
                          ... DMG pg 46 The typical adventurer should be able to maintain animal companions whose Hit Dice total half the maximum. As such, the animal companions of a
                          Message 12 of 16 , Dec 25, 2002
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                            On Wed, 25 Dec 2002, Edward Grant <grantedw@...> wrote:

                            > now a Tamer of Beasts can also have animal conpains equal to twice
                            > his caster level and twice his Tamer of beast level, Tamer of Beasts
                            > caster level goes up every 3 levels, 3 6 9. So a 7 level druid and a
                            > third level Tamer of beast could normaly have 8*2=14 from caster
                            > level and 3*2=6 from Tamer of Beast levels for a total of 22 hd of
                            > conpaniopns. Now in LG how many of these 22 HD can you have at the
                            > start of the adventure?

                            DMG pg 46 "The typical adventurer should be able to maintain animal
                            companions whose Hit Dice total half the maximum."

                            As such, the animal companions of a Tamer of Beasts should be the sum of
                            caster levels for the purposes of the Animal Friendship spell and the
                            levels in Tamer of Beasts. This is assuming that there isn't an exception
                            for Tamer of Beasts somewhere other than Masters of the Wild (as there
                            isn't one in their actual class description and the other rules in MotW
                            are not in play for LG).

                            --
                            Steven E. Metke - Reality's just a bunch of bits
                          • Edward Grant <grantedw@msu.edu>
                            ... twice ... Beasts ... and a ... of ... the ... animal ... sum of ... the ... exception ... there ... MotW ... Cool so in my example 7 druid 3 Tamer would be
                            Message 13 of 16 , Dec 25, 2002
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                              --- In Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com, Steven Metke <grymor@r...>
                              wrote:
                              > On Wed, 25 Dec 2002, Edward Grant <grantedw@m...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > now a Tamer of Beasts can also have animal conpains equal to
                              twice
                              > > his caster level and twice his Tamer of beast level, Tamer of
                              Beasts
                              > > caster level goes up every 3 levels, 3 6 9. So a 7 level druid
                              and a
                              > > third level Tamer of beast could normaly have 8*2=14 from caster
                              > > level and 3*2=6 from Tamer of Beast levels for a total of 22 hd
                              of
                              > > conpaniopns. Now in LG how many of these 22 HD can you have at
                              the
                              > > start of the adventure?
                              >
                              > DMG pg 46 "The typical adventurer should be able to maintain
                              animal
                              > companions whose Hit Dice total half the maximum."
                              >
                              > As such, the animal companions of a Tamer of Beasts should be the
                              sum of
                              > caster levels for the purposes of the Animal Friendship spell and
                              the
                              > levels in Tamer of Beasts. This is assuming that there isn't an
                              exception
                              > for Tamer of Beasts somewhere other than Masters of the Wild (as
                              there
                              > isn't one in their actual class description and the other rules in
                              MotW
                              > are not in play for LG).
                              >
                              > --
                              > Steven E. Metke - Reality's just a bunch of bits

                              Cool so in my example 7 druid 3 Tamer would be able to bring 8
                              caster level and 3 tamer level for a total of 11 hd worth of
                              creatures

                              Ed Grant
                              masternone@...
                            • Cory <technomage@shaw.ca>
                              Hi Folks I believe you are reading Tamer of the Beasts incorrectly. In the MotW it states: Beginning at 1st level, the tamer can have animal companions whose
                              Message 14 of 16 , Dec 25, 2002
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                                Hi Folks

                                I believe you are reading Tamer of the Beasts incorrectly. In the
                                MotW it states:"Beginning at 1st level, the tamer can have animal
                                companions whose HD total no more than the sum of twice his tamer
                                level plus twice his caster level for animal friendship. For
                                Example, a Drd 7/tamer 3 can have up to 20HD of animal companions.
                                No individual animal companion can have more HD than the tamer does"

                                It's not caster level for ToB, but his actual level. So if you get a
                                Druid 10 / Tamer 10 they can have 40 HD worth of Companions (just
                                they must be below 20 HD each)

                                COry


                                --- In Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com, "Edward Grant
                                <grantedw@m...>" <grantedw@m...> wrote:
                                > --- In Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com, Steven Metke <grymor@r...>
                                > wrote:
                                > > On Wed, 25 Dec 2002, Edward Grant <grantedw@m...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > now a Tamer of Beasts can also have animal conpains equal to
                                > twice
                                > > > his caster level and twice his Tamer of beast level, Tamer of
                                > Beasts
                                > > > caster level goes up every 3 levels, 3 6 9. So a 7 level druid
                                > and a
                                > > > third level Tamer of beast could normaly have 8*2=14 from
                                caster
                                > > > level and 3*2=6 from Tamer of Beast levels for a total of 22
                                hd
                                > of
                                > > > conpaniopns. Now in LG how many of these 22 HD can you have at
                                > the
                                > > > start of the adventure?
                                > >
                                > > DMG pg 46 "The typical adventurer should be able to maintain
                                > animal
                                > > companions whose Hit Dice total half the maximum."
                                > >
                                > > As such, the animal companions of a Tamer of Beasts should be
                                the
                                > sum of
                                > > caster levels for the purposes of the Animal Friendship spell
                                and
                                > the
                                > > levels in Tamer of Beasts. This is assuming that there isn't an
                                > exception
                                > > for Tamer of Beasts somewhere other than Masters of the Wild (as
                                > there
                                > > isn't one in their actual class description and the other rules
                                in
                                > MotW
                                > > are not in play for LG).
                                > >
                                > > --
                                > > Steven E. Metke - Reality's just a bunch of bits
                                >
                                > Cool so in my example 7 druid 3 Tamer would be able to bring 8
                                > caster level and 3 tamer level for a total of 11 hd worth of
                                > creatures
                                >
                                > Ed Grant
                                > masternone@h...
                              • Steven Metke
                                ... You are mistaken on three counts. First of all, Animal Mastery increases the maximum hit dice of animal companions by twice your Tamer of Beasts level and
                                Message 15 of 16 , Dec 25, 2002
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                                  On Wed, 25 Dec 2002, Cory <technomage@...> wrote:

                                  > Hi Folks
                                  >
                                  > I believe you are reading Tamer of the Beasts incorrectly. In the
                                  > MotW it states:"Beginning at 1st level, the tamer can have animal
                                  > companions whose HD total no more than the sum of twice his tamer
                                  > level plus twice his caster level for animal friendship. For
                                  > Example, a Drd 7/tamer 3 can have up to 20HD of animal companions.
                                  > No individual animal companion can have more HD than the tamer does"
                                  >
                                  > It's not caster level for ToB, but his actual level. So if you get a
                                  > Druid 10 / Tamer 10 they can have 40 HD worth of Companions (just
                                  > they must be below 20 HD each)

                                  You are mistaken on three counts. First of all, Animal Mastery increases
                                  the maximum hit dice of animal companions by twice your Tamer of Beasts
                                  level and increases the maximum hitdice of a single animal to your total
                                  hitdice as opposed to just your caser level(s) for animal Friendship.
                                  Second, double the sum of your caster level(s) for animal Friendship is
                                  your normal maximum and Tamer of Beasts only adds a caster level every
                                  three levels so in your example, the maximum would be 46. Third, all
                                  charecters in LG are considered to be Adventurers, and as per DMG pg 46,
                                  adventurers can only maintain half their normal maximum, as such, you can
                                  only start a module with the sum of your caster level(s) for Animal
                                  Friendship and your level in Tamer of Beasts, or, for your example, a
                                  total of no more than 23 hit dice of Animals, Beasts and Magical Beasts
                                  (with magical beasts counted double against the limit as per Magical
                                  Beast Mastery). In adition, if you have no levels in Tamer of Beasts then
                                  each of your seperate caster levels for Animal Frienship is counted as a
                                  seperate pool (so a Druid 1, Ranger 4, Cleric /w animal domain 1 could
                                  have two at 1hd and either one at 2hd or 2 more at 1hd). It isn't
                                  completly clear at this time weather or not Animal Mastery actually
                                  changes this for the purposes of stacking multiple classes with Animal
                                  Friendship (as opposed to priestiege classes that increase the caster
                                  level of another class with Animal Friendship).

                                  --
                                  Steven E. Metke - Reality's just a bunch of bits
                                • Jason Lundy
                                  Well it all depends on how you do the math. First it was noted after the fact that wizards screwed up the calculations on that example from the book. It
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Dec 25, 2002
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                                    Well it all depends on how you do the math. First it was noted after the
                                    fact that wizards screwed up the calculations on that example from the book.
                                    It should read as 22 but the way they did the math was as such.

                                    7th level druid using animal friendship gets 14 hd of animals. (see note
                                    below on screwup here)
                                    3rd level Tamer is 6 hd.

                                    This is the grand total of 20 hd. They didnt add the 2 together then double
                                    it. Most class based skills are based on the class only, not your total
                                    character level. There is a couple exceptions, but it usually states it
                                    explicitly when said case happens (companion from Holy Liberator for
                                    example).

                                    The screwup they made in that calculation though was that they forgot the
                                    caster level increase. This was noted after the fact. It should be 8th
                                    level caster for animal friendship since the third level of tamer of beasts
                                    would increase your caster level by one.

                                    Assuming a character was 10th level druid, 10th level tamer of beasts, then
                                    he would have a grand total (max, which obviously you cant adventure with)
                                    of 26 HD from animal friendship, and 20 HD from tamer of beasts. This is
                                    before you add in the adventuring penalty, etc.

                                    J
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: <technomage@...>
                                    To: <Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2002 10:40 AM
                                    Subject: [Living_Greyhawk] Re: Animal Companions


                                    > Hi Folks
                                    >
                                    > I believe you are reading Tamer of the Beasts incorrectly. In the
                                    > MotW it states:"Beginning at 1st level, the tamer can have animal
                                    > companions whose HD total no more than the sum of twice his tamer
                                    > level plus twice his caster level for animal friendship. For
                                    > Example, a Drd 7/tamer 3 can have up to 20HD of animal companions.
                                    > No individual animal companion can have more HD than the tamer does"
                                    >
                                    > It's not caster level for ToB, but his actual level. So if you get a
                                    > Druid 10 / Tamer 10 they can have 40 HD worth of Companions (just
                                    > they must be below 20 HD each)
                                    >
                                    > COry
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com, "Edward Grant
                                    > <grantedw@m...>" <grantedw@m...> wrote:
                                    > > --- In Living_Greyhawk@yahoogroups.com, Steven Metke <grymor@r...>
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > > > On Wed, 25 Dec 2002, Edward Grant <grantedw@m...> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > > now a Tamer of Beasts can also have animal conpains equal to
                                    > > twice
                                    > > > > his caster level and twice his Tamer of beast level, Tamer of
                                    > > Beasts
                                    > > > > caster level goes up every 3 levels, 3 6 9. So a 7 level druid
                                    > > and a
                                    > > > > third level Tamer of beast could normaly have 8*2=14 from
                                    > caster
                                    > > > > level and 3*2=6 from Tamer of Beast levels for a total of 22
                                    > hd
                                    > > of
                                    > > > > conpaniopns. Now in LG how many of these 22 HD can you have at
                                    > > the
                                    > > > > start of the adventure?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > DMG pg 46 "The typical adventurer should be able to maintain
                                    > > animal
                                    > > > companions whose Hit Dice total half the maximum."
                                    > > >
                                    > > > As such, the animal companions of a Tamer of Beasts should be
                                    > the
                                    > > sum of
                                    > > > caster levels for the purposes of the Animal Friendship spell
                                    > and
                                    > > the
                                    > > > levels in Tamer of Beasts. This is assuming that there isn't an
                                    > > exception
                                    > > > for Tamer of Beasts somewhere other than Masters of the Wild (as
                                    > > there
                                    > > > isn't one in their actual class description and the other rules
                                    > in
                                    > > MotW
                                    > > > are not in play for LG).
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --
                                    > > > Steven E. Metke - Reality's just a bunch of bits
                                    > >
                                    > > Cool so in my example 7 druid 3 Tamer would be able to bring 8
                                    > > caster level and 3 tamer level for a total of 11 hd worth of
                                    > > creatures
                                    > >
                                    > > Ed Grant
                                    > > masternone@h...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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