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Re: [LivingFR] Re: Concealment, stealth and combat advantage

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  • TomBollis
    ... You are misreading re attacking with combat advantage. What you reference is the rule re an attacked creature having cover from creatures when attacked -
    Message 1 of 23 , Jul 1 4:40 AM
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      Evan Miller wrote:

      >I am assuming this was ranged attacks? Other creatures do not grant cover
      >in melee, close, or area attacks. Also, enemies do not grant cover to other
      >enemies (the ally grants no cover rule) and therefore cannot be used as a
      >trigger to make a stealth roll. Check the 5th bullet point under Cover page
      >280 in the PHB. Sounds like your DM missed that one.
      >
      >
      You are misreading re attacking with combat advantage.
      What you reference is the rule re an attacked creature
      having cover from creatures when attacked - When you
      make a ranged attack, your enemies grant cover to your
      target (the target's allies grant him cover) vs ranged
      attack, but your allies (the target's enemies) do not.
      Neither allies or enemies grant cover against melee,
      close, or area attacks. (you have it backwards whose
      enemies grant cover against ranged attacks).

      Also, who has cover against you has nothing to do with
      whether you have combat advantage. PH page 280 lists
      situations in which an attacker has combat advantage
      against a defender, which include surprised, unable to
      see the attacker, and unaware of the attacker. Stealth
      is possible if YOU have cover FROM THE ENEMY, thus an
      ally of your enemy (another enemy of yours), does not
      grant cover to you to allow you to hide, but an ally
      of yours (an enemy of your enemy) does grant cover to
      you (against ranged attacks from that enemy), allowing
      you to hide. If you move around, maintaining cover
      and/or concealment from an opponent (including due to
      his enemies - your allies - granting cover vs his
      possible ranged attacks), you can remain hidden. As
      long as you remain hidden from your target, you
      maintain combat advantage. Thus, you can be hidden
      behind one of your allies (your target's enemy) when
      you make a ranged, close, area, or melee reach
      attacks. You cease to be hidden if you lose cover/
      concealment by coming out from behind your ally to
      attack your target, as via a melee attack from an
      adjacent square.

      Thus, a rogue can attack with combat advantage
      from behind an ally with ANY attack that can reach
      the target, while the TARGET will won't have cover
      from that attack due to your ally, but would if
      it were a ranged attack and an enemy of yours was
      also in the way.

      Thus, characters don't want to attack past one
      enemy at another with ranged attacks (cover), but
      do want to any attack past allies (enemies of the
      target) while hidden to gain the benefit of
      Combat Advantage.

      Characters can do quite well with attacks at a
      distance while hidden behind an ally. One of the
      uses for characters in the defender role blocking
      the advance of enemies is to provide cover from
      ranged attacks against party members behind them,
      while allowing those behind to try to hide and
      attack past them with combat advantage, without
      interfering with the allies' ranged attacks.

      Tom Bollis
    • Evan Miller
      ... From: TomBollis To: Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 7:40 AM Subject: Re: [LivingFR] Re: Concealment, stealth
      Message 2 of 23 , Jul 1 7:24 AM
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "TomBollis" <tombollis@...>
        To: <LivingFR@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 7:40 AM
        Subject: Re: [LivingFR] Re: Concealment, stealth and combat advantage


        > Evan Miller wrote:
        >
        >>I am assuming this was ranged attacks? Other creatures do not grant cover
        >>in melee, close, or area attacks. Also, enemies do not grant cover to
        >>other
        >>enemies (the ally grants no cover rule) and therefore cannot be used as a
        >>trigger to make a stealth roll. Check the 5th bullet point under Cover
        >>page
        >>280 in the PHB. Sounds like your DM missed that one.
        >>
        >>
        > You are misreading re attacking with combat advantage.
        > What you reference is the rule re an attacked creature
        > having cover from creatures when attacked - When you
        > make a ranged attack, your enemies grant cover to your
        > target (the target's allies grant him cover) vs ranged
        > attack, but your allies (the target's enemies) do not.
        > Neither allies or enemies grant cover against melee,
        > close, or area attacks. (you have it backwards whose
        > enemies grant cover against ranged attacks).

        No, I don't have anything backwards. Allies do not grant cover on ranged
        attacks. So if he is behind an enemy and another enemy attacks him with a
        ranged attack, the enemy he is behind does not provide cover to him, so
        stealth would not do him any good (but the attacking enemy would have cover
        from the player). The OP specifically stated that he was doing stealth when
        behind allies and enemies. We just said the same thing.

        Evan
      • LCQuincy TOM
        Hi all   We ve seen a lot of arguing back and forth on this point. Let s please take it off list if we can.   I have a feeling Stealth is going to be one of
        Message 3 of 23 , Jul 1 7:31 AM
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          Hi all

           

          We've seen a lot of arguing back and forth on this point. Let's please take it off list if we can.

           

          I have a feeling Stealth is going to be one of the points erratta'd in future printings of the PHB or DMG. It leaves a little too much ambiguity in it's current wording.

           

          Thanks again...

           

          Tom Nolan

          Group Owner/Moderator

           

          T minus 15 days to the LFR CCG

        • Chris Guenther
          This is a good example of the value of having a group FAQ on various gray issues. As it stands, there there will be some dramatic table-to-table variation on
          Message 4 of 23 , Jul 1 1:58 PM
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            This is a good example of the value of having a group FAQ on various gray issues.  As it stands, there there will be some dramatic table-to-table variation on how hiding in combat will work.  Hopefully WotC will help clarify this.  For the gray areas that still exist, I hope to organize a group FAQ generated by polling the LFR players in an online forum.

            I'm not trying to start this discussion now, but just plugging the concept.  I have a note to myself to begin in November.

            On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 7:31 AM, LCQuincy TOM <lcquincy@...> wrote:

            Hi all

             

            We've seen a lot of arguing back and forth on this point. Let's please take it off list if we can.

             

            I have a feeling Stealth is going to be one of the points erratta'd in future printings of the PHB or DMG. It leaves a little too much ambiguity in it's current wording.

             

            Thanks again...

             

            Tom Nolan

            Group Owner/Moderator

             

            T minus 15 days to the LFR CCG


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