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Re: Is LFR Memorable

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  • taerjaga
    I am reminded of a quote, which I believe came from a 4E play-tester when asked if he was having a good time. Yeah, but with this group, I d have fun playing
    Message 1 of 83 , Jun 1, 2010
      I am reminded of a quote, which I believe came from a 4E play-tester when asked if he was having a good time.

      "Yeah, but with this group, I'd have fun playing dominoes."

      (Apologies if I mis-remembered the quote, its source, or its context.)

      - PMT



      --- In LivingFR@yahoogroups.com, chad <greyhawk.chad@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > On May 31, 2010, at 1:13 PM, taerjaga wrote:
      > > In 3E, there was more of a culture of setting up a scenario, and then letting the players and GM work through it in whatever way felt natural.
      >
      > This was not my experience with RPGA play in LG *at* *all*. When I would solicit feedback on LG adventures in general (my ``good, bad, and ugly'' question), I would always hear about a new adventure that required a jacked-high Knowledge:Arcana, Gather Information, Spot, Survival, or DIplomacy -- and if you didn't have it, you didn't get to play the module. Other mods required a dedicated trapfinder or a complete lack of Good and/or Lawful tendencies -- or else you got creamed/killed, again without playing the adventure.
      >
      > Certainly there are a large number of people who had (or still have) serious trouble adjusting to the differences between 3.5&LG's ``uniform play experience'' and 4e&LFR's ``fun and enjoyable play experience''. Since 4e was otherwise relatively easy to pick up (and is still VASTLY easier to DM), you tend to see the most friction in areas like these, where skill challenges remain a big deal. Combine that with the simple fact that Skill Challenges were very rough around the edges and needed both further development and for many a brand-new set of skills, and you're certain to hear a lot of horror stories. If you're still seeing problems like these today, then *someone* needs to step up their game -- there's been enough time and experience to be past the birthing pains by now. Much like D&D in general, skill challenges correctly done are a joy to play, run, and watch. I have played and run multiple different adventures where everyone agreed that the skill challenges were by far the best part of an enjoyable adventure. If you're not having experiences like that *by now*, it's because you or your group are denying them to yourselves.
      >
      > IMHO, of course.
      >
      > *Chad
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      > > Granted, this openness led to a lot of variation, and it still depended heavily on how good or devoted the players and GM were, but the assumption was that you worked based on cause and effect, not a set number of successes or failures.
      > >
      > > If I were to point to anything mechanical, I would say it would be the structured number of successes/failures before determining an outcome that is a problem with SCs. A good GM can respond to how players want to tackle a problem, but having to come up with a reason why almost every check has to effect the SC "count-down", and then explaining why the challenge has suddenly come to an end when it's not obvious to the players (or sometimes even the GM), that's where I've seen many RP situations stumble. The world hits the pause button while everyone at the table accepts the results, tries to ignore anything nonsensical, and skips ahead to the next part of the mod.
      > >
      > > Not all SCs are like this. Many types of challenges can work well within the SC structure, but fitting ALL non-combat challenges to this specific layout leads to many "round hole/square peg" situations. In addition, SCs seem to have led to a tendency in LFR to encapsulate non-combat encounters, with individual choices rarely having effects outside of the overall success/failure results.
      > >
      > > Some of the best uses of SCs that I have seen are those that have broken the mold. I've seen some good ones where the SC ran in the background throughout most of the adventure. Others have thrown out the success/failure ratio, instead requiring the party to overcome an obstacle at whatever cost is necessary.
      > >
      > > As I said before, quality role-playing communities take time and effort to build up. LG provided a framework that seemed to encourage this. Now that many of the veterans from LG have left, leaving many new GMs filling the void for LFR, I have often seen the SC mechanics used as a convenient way to minimize situations they are not as experienced or comfortable with yet. Again, this is not unique to SCs, but it seems to me that SCs have made it much easier (and perhaps even appear acceptable) to hand-wave and roll through things rather than role-play. In this I agree with the previous poster, that doing so is a disservice to players, but my fear is that it will become the norm rather than the exception.
      > >
      > >
      > >> In LFR, the trick is -- like all encounters -- to find a way to
      > >> make role-playing work given the time constraints. My method is to
      > >> eliminate rolls altogether when a role-player says the right things
      > >> in a persuasive manner. If a player just isn't good at that sort of
      > >> thing or doesn't care, he can always rely on rolls.
      > >
      > > This is how I have often seen SCs "work" successfully - by not focusing so much on the successes/failures, using skills and DCs where the cause-effect make sense, ignoring them when they don't or are unnecessary, and letting the encounter run to a logical conclusion.
      > >
      > > And the funny thing is, this is how it often was in pre-skill challenge days, and in just about every other RPG for that matter.
      > >
      > >
      > > Out of curiosity, does anyone know of any non-d20 gaming systems that are using a success/failure ratio similar to 4E?
      > >
      > >
      > > - PMT
      > > (We complain now in hopes that what we foresee will not come to pass.)
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • Samuel Hendricks
      While Paizo has other product lines to support the company their Pathfinder line has at most half the books 4e did in the same timeframe. That Paizo hasn t
      Message 83 of 83 , Jun 10, 2010
        While Paizo has other product lines to support the company their Pathfinder line has at most half the books 4e did in the same timeframe. That Paizo hasn't stalled production of their products is a good indication that they're making some decent coin from the 'fluff' material as opposed to the relatively scarce 'crunch' material.

        --
        America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
        -Abraham Lincoln
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