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Coup De Grace . . . Do You?

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  • Josiah
    Simple question: As a DM, how do you feel about the dreaded coup de grace?  Do you use it?  Ever?  If you do, in what situations?  Is a DM who never uses
    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 1, 2009
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      Simple question:

      As a DM, how do you feel about the dreaded coup de grace?  Do you use it?  Ever?  If you do, in what situations?  Is a DM who never uses it being too soft?  Is a DM who uses it a lot being a jerk?  Is it inherently unfair to the players in an LFR context, for some reason?

      Also, is there a difference between using coup de grace on a foe who is actually dropped and dying, and a foe who is merely temporarily helpless (such as the victim of a Sleep spell)?  I mean, a philosophical difference, not a rules difference.


      Discuss.


      -Josiah


    • Russ Stanley
      ... use it?  Ever?  If you do, in what situations?  Is a DM who never uses it being too soft?  Is a DM who uses it a lot being a jerk?  Is it inherently
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 1, 2009
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        --- In LivingFR@yahoogroups.com, Josiah <firesnakearies77@...> wrote:
        >
        > Simple question:
        >
        > As a DM, how do you feel about the dreaded coup de grace?  Do you
        use it?  Ever?  If you do, in what situations?  Is a DM who never
        uses it being too soft?  Is a DM who uses it a lot being a jerk?  Is
        it inherently unfair to the players in an LFR context, for some
        reason?
        >
        > Also, is there a difference between using coup de grace on a foe
        who is actually dropped and dying, and a foe who is merely
        temporarily helpless (such as the victim of a Sleep spell)?  I mean,
        a philosophical difference, not a rules difference.
        >
        >
        > Discuss.
        >
        >
        > -Josiah
        >

        PC's can use CDG whenever they want (on a helpless opponent).

        Monsters almost never attack an unconcious character.

        DMG, page 40:

        "Monsters and Fallen Characters

        Don't hit people when they're down. When a character falls
        unconscious, monsters turn their attention to enemies who are still
        up and fighting. Monsters don't usually intentionally deal damage to
        fallen foes."

        Russ
      • Josiah
        ... DMG, page 40: Monsters and Fallen Characters Don t hit people when they re down. When a character falls unconscious, monsters turn their attention to
        Message 3 of 26 , Feb 1, 2009
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          --- On Sun, 2/1/09, Russ Stanley <caliban_loreseeker@...> wrote:

          DMG, page 40:

          "Monsters and Fallen Characters

          Don't hit people when they're down. When a character falls
          unconscious, monsters turn their attention to enemies who are still
          up and fighting. Monsters don't usually intentionally deal damage to
          fallen foes."



          Hmm.  Well maybe the DMG was written by fascists.  Yeah.


          -Josiah


        • Russ Stanley
          ... to ... Or people who want the game to focus on the players having fun and killing monsters, instead of DM s doing their best to kill characters at every
          Message 4 of 26 , Feb 1, 2009
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            --- In LivingFR@yahoogroups.com, Josiah <firesnakearies77@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- On Sun, 2/1/09, Russ Stanley <caliban_loreseeker@...> wrote:
            >
            > DMG, page 40:
            >
            >
            > "Monsters and Fallen Characters
            >
            >
            > Don't hit people when they're down. When a character falls
            >
            > unconscious, monsters turn their attention to enemies who are still
            >
            > up and fighting. Monsters don't usually intentionally deal damage
            to
            >
            > fallen foes."
            >
            >
            >
            > Hmm.  Well maybe the DMG was written by fascists.  Yeah.
            >
            >
            > -Josiah
            >

            Or people who want the game to focus on the players having fun and
            killing monsters, instead of DM's doing their best to kill characters
            at every opportunity.

            Who knows.


            Russ
          • Josiah
            ... Or people who want the game to focus on the players having fun and killing monsters, instead of DM s doing their best to kill characters at every
            Message 5 of 26 , Feb 1, 2009
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              --- On Sun, 2/1/09, Russ Stanley <caliban_loreseeker@...> wrote:

              Or people who want the game to focus on the players having fun and
              killing monsters, instead of DM's doing their best to kill characters
              at every opportunity.



              Indeed.  But then, some people also find the idea of a game which you can't really lose to be boring.  Then again, those cheat codes in video games that make you invincible are strangely popular, so maybe it's just me.


              -Josiah


            • Russ Stanley
              ... characters ... you can t really lose to be boring.  Then again, those cheat codes in video games that make you invincible are strangely popular, so maybe
              Message 6 of 26 , Feb 1, 2009
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                --- In LivingFR@yahoogroups.com, Josiah <firesnakearies77@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- On Sun, 2/1/09, Russ Stanley <caliban_loreseeker@...> wrote:
                >
                > Or people who want the game to focus on the players having fun and
                >
                > killing monsters, instead of DM's doing their best to kill
                characters
                >
                > at every opportunity.
                >
                >
                >
                > Indeed.  But then, some people also find the idea of a game which
                you can't really lose to be boring.  Then again, those cheat codes in
                video games that make you invincible are strangely popular, so maybe
                it's just me.
                >
                >
                > -Josiah
                >

                You can lose, and your character can even die (temporarily in LFR).
                It's just not supposed to be from a monster hacking away at your
                prone and helpless out character.

                Russ
              • Evan Miller
                Keyword: usually. :) In most cases, as a DM, I would say no, you re not goign to use CDG. If it s a long fight and a PC has dropped and gotten back up
                Message 7 of 26 , Feb 1, 2009
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                  Keyword: usually. >:)

                  In most cases, as a DM, I would say no, you're not goign to use CDG. If
                  it's a long fight and a PC has dropped and gotten back up several times, if
                  they're a particularly annoying PC (fromt he NPC's perspective that is...),
                  if they're intelligent I could see them using it to keep that player down
                  ("For crying out loud, would someone please put that do-gooder down and make
                  sure he STAYS down?!"). Such a situation would not come up very often.

                  Evan

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Russ Stanley" <caliban_loreseeker@...>
                  To: <LivingFR@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 9:33 AM
                  Subject: [LivingFR] Re: Coup De Grace . . . Do You?


                  Monsters almost never attack an unconcious character.

                  DMG, page 40:

                  "Monsters and Fallen Characters

                  Don't hit people when they're down. When a character falls
                  unconscious, monsters turn their attention to enemies who are still
                  up and fighting. Monsters don't usually intentionally deal damage to
                  fallen foes."
                • Timlagor
                  Looks about right to me. Part of the reasoning behind the DMG injunction is that only PCs are actually likely to get up again in time to rejoin a fight. I d be
                  Message 8 of 26 , Feb 1, 2009
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                    Looks about right to me.

                    Part of the reasoning behind the DMG injunction is that only PCs are actually likely to get up again in time to rejoin a fight.

                    I'd be much more inclined to use CdG against a merely temporarily helpless PC because the NPC likely *will* expect the PC to rejoin the fight before it's over in such a case.
                    -the player might consider it a bonus that a single CdG is unlikely to kill their character in such a situation but I'm not going to stop and check how many hp they have.
                    How much effort the NPCs made to do the CdG would depend on the situation but as a player I would expect to have to defend my helpless "friends".


                    --- On Sun, 1/2/09, Evan Miller <evanmiller@...> wrote:
                    > Keyword: usually. >:)
                    >
                    > In most cases, as a DM, I would say no, you're not goind to use CDG. If
                    > it's a long fight and a PC has dropped and gotten back up several times, if they're a particularly annoying PC (fromt he NPC's perspective that is...), if they're intelligent I could see them using it to keep that player down ("For crying out loud, would someone please put that
                    > do-gooder down and make sure he STAYS down?!"). Such a situation would not come up very often.
                    >
                  • Robert Jenks
                    ... Ever? If you do, in what situations? Depends on the situation, but in general I would Coup de Grace if the atacker could not see or know of any other
                    Message 9 of 26 , Feb 1, 2009
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                      > As a DM, how do you feel about the dreaded coup de grace?  Do you use it?  Ever?  If you do, in what situations?

                      Depends on the situation, but in general I would Coup de Grace if the atacker could not see or know of any other threat.  

                      In LFR I probably wouldn't do this except as a total party kill or against a PC who did something really really reckless.  Even as a total party kill I would probably look for an excuse to take the PCs hostage and let them try to escape.  One character dying can have a very negative effect on the other PCs who might not have approved of the reckless behavior and who now may feel obligated to pay for a rez.

                      -Robert
                    • timtjarks
                      You win at D&D by everyone having fun. Challenging adventures are fun, and the resulting (fair) deaths add to that sense of challenge. If the DM thinks they
                      Message 10 of 26 , Feb 1, 2009
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                        You win at D&D by everyone having fun.   Challenging adventures are fun, and the resulting (fair) deaths add to that sense of challenge.

                        If the DM thinks they win only by slaughtering players, I'd avoid that DM on the future.

                        Tim Tjarks
                        timtjarks.com

                        On Feb 1, 2009, at 9:54 AM, Josiah <firesnakearies77@...> wrote:

                        --- On Sun, 2/1/09, Russ Stanley <caliban_loreseeker@...> wrote:

                        Or people who want the game to focus on the players having fun and
                        killing monsters, instead of DM's doing their best to kill characters
                        at every opportunity.



                        Indeed.  But then, some people also find the idea of a game which you can't really lose to be boring.  Then again, those cheat codes in video games that make you invincible are strangely popular, so maybe it's just me.


                        -Josiah
                      • Josiah
                        ... You win at D&D by everyone having fun.   Challenging adventures are fun, and the resulting (fair) deaths add to that sense of challenge. If the DM thinks
                        Message 11 of 26 , Feb 1, 2009
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                          --- On Sun, 2/1/09, timtjarks <timtjarks@...> wrote:

                          You win at D&D by everyone having fun.   Challenging adventures are fun, and the resulting (fair) deaths add to that sense of challenge.

                          If the DM thinks they win only by slaughtering players, I'd avoid that DM on the future.



                          Yes.  I agree.  This is how I feel, as well.


                          -Josiah


                        • Tim Clemons
                          I ve had once experience where I was tempted to use the CdG on players. The defenders and melee strikers had basically run around the low-level opponents to
                          Message 12 of 26 , Feb 1, 2009
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                            I've had once experience where I was tempted to use the CdG on
                            players. The defenders and melee strikers had basically run around
                            the low-level opponents to attack the mastermind at the back row.
                            This, of course, allowed those low-level opponents to quickly drop the
                            ranged striker and wizard.

                            The melee players were of the opinion that the opponents would never
                            CdG the fallen allies and would just swing back around and attack the
                            remaining team. I really wanted to demonstrate just how such a poor
                            tactical decision could bite them back. Somehow, I relented.

                            On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 10:13 AM, Josiah <firesnakearies77@...> wrote:
                            > --- On Sun, 2/1/09, timtjarks <timtjarks@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > You win at D&D by everyone having fun. Challenging adventures are fun, and
                            > the resulting (fair) deaths add to that sense of challenge.
                            > If the DM thinks they win only by slaughtering players, I'd avoid that DM on
                            > the future.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yes. I agree. This is how I feel, as well.
                            >
                            >
                            > -Josiah
                            >
                            >
                          • Evan Miller
                            ... From: Tim Clemons To: Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [LivingFR] Re: Coup De Grace .
                            Message 13 of 26 , Feb 1, 2009
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                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Tim Clemons" <tclemons@...>
                              To: <LivingFR@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 1:33 PM
                              Subject: Re: [LivingFR] Re: Coup De Grace . . . Do You?


                              > I've had once experience where I was tempted to use the CdG on
                              > players. The defenders and melee strikers had basically run around
                              > the low-level opponents to attack the mastermind at the back row.
                              > This, of course, allowed those low-level opponents to quickly drop the
                              > ranged striker and wizard.
                              >
                              > The melee players were of the opinion that the opponents would never
                              > CdG the fallen allies and would just swing back around and attack the
                              > remaining team. I really wanted to demonstrate just how such a poor
                              > tactical decision could bite them back. Somehow, I relented.

                              Now see, as a DM, I see that as a great time to have the mastemind point to
                              the fallen PCs with his.her.its allies standing over their motionless bodies
                              and say "Lay down your arms and leave us be and we won't cut the throats of
                              your comrades." If the PCs are going to leave their comrades stranded to
                              die... stupidity should have consequences. :)

                              Evan
                            • Peter A. Willis
                              While this scenario points out some serious deficiencies in play by some players, I m not sure penalizing in that manner is the right thing to do. Maybe a
                              Message 14 of 26 , Feb 1, 2009
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                                While this scenario points out some serious deficiencies in play by
                                some players, I'm not sure penalizing in that manner is the right
                                thing to do. Maybe a reminder to defenders that they are DEFENDERS
                                would be a better method of dealing with this problem. Also since
                                this is very bad tactics by virtually taking one of the best uses of a
                                character and ignoring it, a DM should be able to take advantage of
                                the situation tactically.
                                DM's almost always have a tactical advantage to begin with and if
                                the players characters widen this advantage by not using their own
                                abilities to a full extent, don't be afraid to use it against them.

                                Pete

                                >
                                >
                                > > I've had once experience where I was tempted to use the CdG on
                                > > players. The defenders and melee strikers had basically run around
                                > > the low-level opponents to attack the mastermind at the back row.
                                > > This, of course, allowed those low-level opponents to quickly drop the
                                > > ranged striker and wizard.
                                > >
                                > > The melee players were of the opinion that the opponents would never
                                > > CdG the fallen allies and would just swing back around and attack the
                                > > remaining team. I really wanted to demonstrate just how such a poor
                                > > tactical decision could bite them back. Somehow, I relented.
                                >
                                > Now see, as a DM, I see that as a great time to have the mastemind
                                point to
                                > the fallen PCs with his.her.its allies standing over their
                                motionless bodies
                                > and say "Lay down your arms and leave us be and we won't cut the
                                throats of
                                > your comrades." If the PCs are going to leave their comrades
                                stranded to
                                > die... stupidity should have consequences. :)
                                >
                                > Evan
                                >
                              • Troy E. Daniels
                                Personnaly in the scenario provided, I would hace had the creatures haul off the bodies. Not far and certainly not recoverable. But teach both the defenders
                                Message 15 of 26 , Feb 1, 2009
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                                  Personnaly in the scenario provided, I would hace had the creatures haul off the bodies. Not far and certainly not recoverable. But teach both the defenders and the fallen a lesson in DME.

                                  Yes, I am a bad person. Would have looted them too. :-). Again, they would get it back.

                                  But I bet you they would never do that again.

                                  Troy
                                  Bad person
                                  Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
                                • Terry Duchastel
                                  ... it? Ever? If you do, in what situations? ... being a jerk? Is it inherently unfair to the ... I ve never coup-de-grace d in LG or LFR, but then again I
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Feb 1, 2009
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                                    --- In LivingFR@yahoogroups.com, Josiah <firesnakearies77@...> wrote:
                                    > Simple question:
                                    >
                                    > As a DM, how do you feel about the dreaded coup de grace?  Do you use it?  Ever?  If you do, in what situations? 
                                    > Is a DM who never uses it being too soft?  Is a DM who uses it a lot being a jerk?  Is it inherently unfair to the
                                    > players in an LFR context, for some reason?

                                    I've never coup-de-grace'd in LG or LFR, but then again I agree with the DMG's rationale.  I've still killed PCs, and I've even had 1 TPK.

                                    I've noticed that players feel CDG is "cheap", whether it's legit or not, and that it just seems to harbor OOC resentment.

                                    Terry Duchastel

                                  • James
                                    ... In a roleplaying game the job of the DM is to represent the NPCs. Their actions should reflect who or what they are. It shouldn t be you, it should be who
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Feb 1, 2009
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                                      --- In LivingFR@yahoogroups.com, Josiah <firesnakearies77@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Simple question:
                                      >
                                      > As a DM, how do you feel about the dreaded coup de grace? 

                                      In a roleplaying game the job of the DM is to represent the NPCs.
                                      Their actions should reflect who or what they are. It shouldn't be
                                      you, it should be who you are representing.

                                      If you represent the bad guys properly you will aid in immersion,
                                      meanwhile the converse is also true. 'Softballing' is as bad as being
                                      adversarial in this regard. Engendering trust in your players that you
                                      are simply representing the NPCs is key here. Sometimes this is using
                                      sub-optimal (but appropriate) tactics, while at other times it is
                                      having them do things that are nasty for the PCs.

                                      -James
                                    • Jonathan Choy
                                      After 12 hours of playing yesterday, I **forgot** that CDG was an option, or it would have been completely in keeping for the monsters I was running to do
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Feb 1, 2009
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                                        After 12 hours of playing yesterday, I **forgot** that CDG was an
                                        option, or it would have been completely in keeping for the monsters I
                                        was running to do so...

                                        darnit, put that in my 'fail' column...

                                        Jon

                                        Terry Duchastel wrote:
                                        > --- In LivingFR@yahoogroups.com, Josiah <firesnakearies77@...> wrote:
                                        > > Simple question:
                                        > >
                                        > > As a DM, how do you feel about the dreaded coup de grace? Do you
                                        > use it? Ever? If you do, in what situations?
                                        > > Is a DM who never uses it being too soft? Is a DM who uses it a lot
                                        > being a jerk? Is it inherently unfair to the
                                        > > players in an LFR context, for some reason?
                                        >
                                        > I've never coup-de-grace'd in LG or LFR, but then again I agree with
                                        > the DMG's rationale. I've still killed PCs, and I've even had 1 TPK.
                                        >
                                        > I've noticed that players feel CDG is "cheap", whether it's legit or
                                        > not, and that it just seems to harbor /OOC /resentment.
                                        >
                                        > Terry Duchastel
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Martin Low
                                        Slight difference between monsters and Chaotic Evil Master Villains, last time I used it on the party after they attempted to use it on the Bad Guy several
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Feb 2, 2009
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                                          Slight difference between "monsters" and Chaotic Evil Master Villains, last time I used it on the party after they attempted to use it on the Bad Guy several times.
                                          It's a little more limited in 4th ed and not likely to go off, generally the continued attack against a PC will kill them a lot quicker, against a baddie most PC's can't do enough damage in one hit.
                                          Like the big guy with 384hp, who does half that in one hit under 7th?
                                          It can also be a lot of fun in the delve.
                                          marty

                                          Monsters almost never attack an unconcious character.

                                          DMG, page 40:

                                          "Monsters and Fallen Characters

                                          Don't hit people when they're down. When a character falls
                                          unconscious, monsters turn their attention to enemies who are still
                                          up and fighting. Monsters don't usually intentionally deal damage to
                                          fallen foes."

                                          Russ



                                          Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look.
                                        • ringweld@aol.com
                                          Does that include Delve DMs??? :( Dan P. ... From: Josiah To: LivingFR@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 12:13 pm Subject: Re:
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Feb 2, 2009
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                                            Does that include Delve DMs?   :(

                                            Dan P.



                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: Josiah <firesnakearies77@...>
                                            To: LivingFR@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 12:13 pm
                                            Subject: Re: [LivingFR] Re: Coup De Grace . . . Do You?

                                            --- On Sun, 2/1/09, timtjarks <timtjarks@...> wrote:

                                            You win at D&D by everyone having fun.   Challenging adventures are fun, and the resulting (fair) deaths add to that sense of challenge.

                                            If the DM thinks they win only by slaughtering players, I'd avoid that DM on the future.



                                            Yes.  I agree.  This is how I feel, as well.


                                            -Josiah


                                          • Russ Stanley
                                            I see a lot of responses on this list that basically boil down to DM s changing Don t hit people when they are down into I ll attack a fallen PC whenever I
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Feb 2, 2009
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                                              I see a lot of responses on this list that basically boil down to
                                              DM's changing "Don't hit people when they are down" into "I'll attack
                                              a fallen PC whenever I want to."

                                              Rationalize it however you want, but it's still against both the
                                              letter and the spirit of the rules. Real classy.

                                              Russ

                                              --- In LivingFR@yahoogroups.com, Martin Low <pizzflapz@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Slight difference between "monsters" and Chaotic Evil Master
                                              Villains, last time I used it on the party after they attempted to
                                              use it on the Bad Guy several times.
                                              > It's a little more limited in 4th ed and not likely to go off,
                                              generally the continued attack against a PC will kill them a lot
                                              quicker, against a baddie most PC's can't do enough damage in one hit.
                                              > Like the big guy with 384hp, who does half that in one hit under
                                              7th?
                                              > It can also be a lot of fun in the delve.
                                              > marty
                                              > Monsters almost never attack an unconcious character.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > DMG, page 40:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > "Monsters and Fallen Characters
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Don't hit people when they're down. When a character falls
                                              >
                                              > unconscious, monsters turn their attention to enemies who are still
                                              >
                                              > up and fighting. Monsters don't usually intentionally deal damage
                                              to
                                              >
                                              > fallen foes."
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Russ
                                              >
                                            • Dave McNabb
                                              Just my two cents,   I have never used CdG in any of my games as DM in LFR or home games for that fact. However, I will attack prone PC s with a positive hit
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Feb 2, 2009
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                                                Just my two cents,
                                                 
                                                I have never used CdG in any of my games as DM in LFR or home games for that fact. However, I will attack prone PC's with a positive hit point total, but not a dying PC. I use the spirit of the rules, not the letter. Too many DM's, and players for that fact, try to use the letter of the rules to defeat the spirit of the rules.
                                                 
                                                Dave M.

                                                --- On Mon, 2/2/09, Russ Stanley <caliban_loreseeker@...> wrote:
                                                From: Russ Stanley <caliban_loreseeker@...>
                                                Subject: [LivingFR] Re: Coup De Grace . . . Do You?
                                                To: LivingFR@yahoogroups.com
                                                Date: Monday, February 2, 2009, 8:28 AM

                                                I see a lot of responses on this list that basically boil down to
                                                DM's changing "Don't hit people when they are down" into "I'll attack
                                                a fallen PC whenever I want to."

                                                Rationalize it however you want, but it's still against both the
                                                letter and the spirit of the rules. Real classy.

                                                Russ

                                                --- In LivingFR@yahoogroup s.com, Martin Low <pizzflapz@. ..> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Slight difference between "monsters" and Chaotic Evil Master
                                                Villains, last time I used it on the party after they attempted to
                                                use it on the Bad Guy several times.
                                                > It's a little more limited in 4th ed and not likely to go off,
                                                generally the continued attack against a PC will kill them a lot
                                                quicker, against a baddie most PC's can't do enough damage in one hit.
                                                > Like the big guy with 384hp, who does half that in one hit under
                                                7th?
                                                > It can also be a lot of fun in the delve.
                                                > marty
                                                > Monsters almost never attack an unconcious character.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > DMG, page 40:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > "Monsters and Fallen Characters
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Don't hit people when they're down. When a character falls
                                                >
                                                > unconscious, monsters turn their attention to enemies who are still
                                                >
                                                > up and fighting. Monsters don't usually intentionally deal damage
                                                to
                                                >
                                                > fallen foes."
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Russ
                                                >


                                              • steve
                                                ... still ... I m always looking for the sweet spot. This is the place where everyone at the table s rectum is on pucker factor 5, everyone is tense, and no
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Feb 2, 2009
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                                                  --- In LivingFR@yahoogroups.com, "Russ Stanley"
                                                  <caliban_loreseeker@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In LivingFR@yahoogroups.com, Josiah <firesnakearies77@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- On Sun, 2/1/09, Russ Stanley <caliban_loreseeker@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > DMG, page 40:
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > "Monsters and Fallen Characters
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Don't hit people when they're down. When a character falls
                                                  > >
                                                  > > unconscious, monsters turn their attention to enemies who are
                                                  still
                                                  > >
                                                  > > up and fighting. Monsters don't usually intentionally deal damage
                                                  > to
                                                  > >
                                                  > > fallen foes."

                                                  I'm always looking for the sweet spot. This is the place where
                                                  everyone at the table's rectum is on pucker factor 5, everyone is
                                                  tense, and no one dies. Timing a THREAT of a CDG is almost an art,
                                                  and I do it seldom. I always play the monsters based on their
                                                  attitude and brains, and I am more likely to CDG someone once I have
                                                  seen significant healing at the table. Even a Kobold knows to put you
                                                  down if you KEEP GETTING BACK UP! Still, rule #1 is FUN. I won't
                                                  usually CDG, I'm more likely to mention it, when the PCs have 3-4
                                                  actions to stop them coming up than to sneak it in. I agree with page
                                                  40 in general! Unless it adds to the fun, which is RARE in the case
                                                  of CDG.

                                                  -S
                                                • Dave Moore
                                                  I had this situation recently when I ran WATE1-1. Without spoiling it too much, it was that final encounter, and the warlord (dragonborn) went down having been
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Feb 2, 2009
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                                                    I had this situation recently when I ran WATE1-1.

                                                    Without spoiling it too much, it was that final encounter, and the
                                                    warlord (dragonborn) went down having been tagteamed by two gnome
                                                    sneaky NPCs. As there was no one else in melee range, I had the two
                                                    sneaky NPCs bend down over her unconscious body a moment (i.e. for a
                                                    round) and do something that the other PCs couldn't see properly and
                                                    then move away and continue targeting other PCs.

                                                    After the fight was over (the NPCs surrended), it turns out they had
                                                    spent the round drawing a smiley face in yellow paint on the face of
                                                    the big hulking warlord.

                                                    The psychological scarring that was inflicted upon the character was
                                                    worth it. *grins*

                                                    Best,
                                                    Dave
                                                  • Jim Cummings
                                                    I thought the usual trope (from media) is that the BBEG subdues the heroes and wastes time telling them the super secret plan and making them anticipate being
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Feb 2, 2009
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                                                      I thought the usual trope (from media) is that the BBEG subdues the heroes and wastes time telling them the super secret plan and making them anticipate being tortured. This give the heroes time to foil the plan/escape.

                                                      On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 8:28 AM, Russ Stanley <caliban_loreseeker@...> wrote:

                                                      I see a lot of responses on this list that basically boil down to
                                                      DM's changing "Don't hit people when they are down" into "I'll attack
                                                      a fallen PC whenever I want to."

                                                      Rationalize it however you want, but it's still against both the
                                                      letter and the spirit of the rules. Real classy.

                                                      Russ




                                                      --
                                                      Jim Cummings
                                                    • Tim Tjarks
                                                      Ahhh, I should have allowed for some cases. No, Delve DMs not included. Ditto D&D Championships. Or anything else that really IS set out as competitive
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Feb 2, 2009
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                                                        Ahhh, I should have allowed for some cases.   No, Delve DMs not included.  Ditto D&D Championships.   Or anything else that really IS set out as competitive play.    In those cases, let the blood fly!

                                                        Tim Tjarks

                                                        On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 7:18 AM, <ringweld@...> wrote:
                                                        Does that include Delve DMs?   :(

                                                        Dan P.



                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                        From: Josiah <firesnakearies77@...>
                                                        To: LivingFR@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Sent: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 12:13 pm
                                                        Subject: Re: [LivingFR] Re: Coup De Grace . . . Do You?

                                                        --- On Sun, 2/1/09, timtjarks <timtjarks@...> wrote:

                                                        You win at D&D by everyone having fun.   Challenging adventures are fun, and the resulting (fair) deaths add to that sense of challenge.

                                                        If the DM thinks they win only by slaughtering players, I'd avoid that DM on the future.



                                                        Yes.  I agree.  This is how I feel, as well.


                                                        -Josiah

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