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Re: OT: Indian Petter Engines

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  • jmarkwalker
    Mark, Thanks for the info - very useful. Can you explain some more about turning the fuel pump down . I don t understand how this could have (anywhere near)
    Message 1 of 16 , Oct 6, 2006
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      Mark,

      Thanks for the info - very useful.

      Can you explain some more about 'turning the fuel pump down'. I don't
      understand how this could have (anywhere near) the desired effect,
      because it would just mean that the engine didn't run at its
      designated speed, yes?

      Have you heard of anyone changing (increasing) the compression ratio
      in an attempt to reduce the smoke?

      Also, can you point me/us in the direction of these other, better,
      similarly priced engines.

      Mark



      --- In Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com, "marksmbx" <marksmbx@...> wrote:
      >
      > AV and PH1 I believe. Read the manuals, its all there.
      >
      > They are a strong engine, I know more Petter clones with higher
      hours
      > on them with less problems than CS clones. They are far easier to
      > maintain and parts are cheaper. But emissions will be a problem
      soon
      > enough. A new decision on lower Kw engines will happen in December.
      I
      > bet the engine Kw limit will claim more engines at lower Kw.
      >
      > The base design looks almost solid. The combustion is not right
      tho.
      > Their weakness is the choice of material grade and tolerances
      choosen
      > by the manufacturer. Kirolskar were the originators of this engine.
      > And they made good ones, if you can find one.
      >
      > Pistons were always alu. Makes sense that way too.
      >
      > They run fine on veg oil as is. Temperature is the key for WVO and
      > with winter approaching many on this list will soon discover the
      > lowest temp their engines will start.
      >
      > You wont like the noise they make or the smoke they emit either!
      >
      > Other nice things about them, you have a choice of 3 different
      weight
      > flywheels depending on what your application is. You can rebuild
      one
      > faster than a CS. You can lift most parts without buggering up your
      > back. Their oil pump is very nice and the fuel pump shim idea is so
      > familar to anyone who worked on the original petters.
      >
      > The fuel system is all Mico, or meant to be. There are a lot of
      Mico
      > fakes in India, buyer beware. They are easy to start and the odd
      one
      > likes to play it brave and rev like hell until it runs outta fuel
      or
      > explodes. Dodgy govenor.
      >
      > If the smoke problem could be cured, I'd have a few. But there are
      > other diesel engines out there similar in price that dont smoke and
      > have a QC program in place. There are copies of Duetz, Perkins and
      > Cummins out there that are well made. Off to China with you.
      >
      > I tried for months to build a filtering scheme for those engines,
      but
      > the volume of smoke is just too much to clean up. The combustion
      > really needs to be looked at hard. It just aint right.
      >
      > Turning the fuel pump down is cheating and doesnt solve the
      problem,
      > only rob you of horses.
      >
      > Mark
      >
      >
      > --- In Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com, "mark walker" <j.mark.walker@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > This is certainly Off Topic, but you are the right audience to
      ask
      > this
      > > question of.....
      > >
      > > I would like to know about the history of the Indian Petter type
      > engine.
      > > Which british Petter engine model (or models) is it a copy of?
      Are
      > these
      > > engines any good (by design, I'm not interested in hearing about
      > Indian
      > > build quality, I want to know what is good about this design)?
      > > How long have they been made?
      > > What's their weaknesses?
      > > How have the Indian's changed themover the years?
      > > Were they ever IDI?
      > > Did any of them ever have a Cast Iron Piston?
      > >
      > > I am toying with the idea of modifying one of these engines to
      make
      > it run
      > > very well on VegOil, but I need to know about the engine before I
      > embark on
      > > the project.
      > >
      > > I will provide a night's worth of beer for the person who answers
      > all those
      > > questions (truthfully), so long as I can share it.
      > >
      > > Mark
      > >
      >
    • marksmbx
      Less fuel = less smoke. But also less power, its a favourite trick among those trying to get a diesel engine car through its MOT. Taxi s do it all the time.
      Message 2 of 16 , Oct 6, 2006
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        Less fuel = less smoke. But also less power, its a favourite trick
        among those trying to get a diesel engine car through its MOT. Taxi's
        do it all the time. The mixture gets a tad lean though and very much
        under powered.

        I doubt the problem is compression. Running higher compression for
        extended periods will likely cause damage anyway. I would look at
        timing first then the head design and piston crown after that.

        The indians dont need to cater for smoke emissions like we do. I have
        told many of them already that unless they get this problem fixed,
        bye bye EU and US sales.

        I have signed an NDA with one Chinese Co involved with diesel genset
        production, I cant reveal all.

        If you approach Duetz in Germany them may be able to help you.

        Mark

        > Thanks for the info - very useful.
        >
        > Can you explain some more about 'turning the fuel pump down'. I
        don't
        > understand how this could have (anywhere near) the desired effect,
        > because it would just mean that the engine didn't run at its
        > designated speed, yes?
        >
        > Have you heard of anyone changing (increasing) the compression
        ratio
        > in an attempt to reduce the smoke?
        >
        > Also, can you point me/us in the direction of these other, better,
        > similarly priced engines.
        >
        > Mark
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com, "marksmbx" <marksmbx@> wrote:
        > >
        > > AV and PH1 I believe. Read the manuals, its all there.
        > >
        > > They are a strong engine, I know more Petter clones with higher
        > hours
        > > on them with less problems than CS clones. They are far easier to
        > > maintain and parts are cheaper. But emissions will be a problem
        > soon
        > > enough. A new decision on lower Kw engines will happen in
        December.
        > I
        > > bet the engine Kw limit will claim more engines at lower Kw.
        > >
        > > The base design looks almost solid. The combustion is not right
        > tho.
        > > Their weakness is the choice of material grade and tolerances
        > choosen
        > > by the manufacturer. Kirolskar were the originators of this
        engine.
        > > And they made good ones, if you can find one.
        > >
        > > Pistons were always alu. Makes sense that way too.
        > >
        > > They run fine on veg oil as is. Temperature is the key for WVO
        and
        > > with winter approaching many on this list will soon discover the
        > > lowest temp their engines will start.
        > >
        > > You wont like the noise they make or the smoke they emit either!
        > >
        > > Other nice things about them, you have a choice of 3 different
        > weight
        > > flywheels depending on what your application is. You can rebuild
        > one
        > > faster than a CS. You can lift most parts without buggering up
        your
        > > back. Their oil pump is very nice and the fuel pump shim idea is
        so
        > > familar to anyone who worked on the original petters.
        > >
        > > The fuel system is all Mico, or meant to be. There are a lot of
        > Mico
        > > fakes in India, buyer beware. They are easy to start and the odd
        > one
        > > likes to play it brave and rev like hell until it runs outta fuel
        > or
        > > explodes. Dodgy govenor.
        > >
        > > If the smoke problem could be cured, I'd have a few. But there
        are
        > > other diesel engines out there similar in price that dont smoke
        and
        > > have a QC program in place. There are copies of Duetz, Perkins
        and
        > > Cummins out there that are well made. Off to China with you.
        > >
        > > I tried for months to build a filtering scheme for those engines,
        > but
        > > the volume of smoke is just too much to clean up. The combustion
        > > really needs to be looked at hard. It just aint right.
        > >
        > > Turning the fuel pump down is cheating and doesnt solve the
        > problem,
        > > only rob you of horses.
        > >
        > > Mark
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com, "mark
        walker" <j.mark.walker@>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > This is certainly Off Topic, but you are the right audience to
        > ask
        > > this
        > > > question of.....
        > > >
        > > > I would like to know about the history of the Indian Petter
        type
        > > engine.
        > > > Which british Petter engine model (or models) is it a copy of?
        > Are
        > > these
        > > > engines any good (by design, I'm not interested in hearing
        about
        > > Indian
        > > > build quality, I want to know what is good about this design)?
        > > > How long have they been made?
        > > > What's their weaknesses?
        > > > How have the Indian's changed themover the years?
        > > > Were they ever IDI?
        > > > Did any of them ever have a Cast Iron Piston?
        > > >
        > > > I am toying with the idea of modifying one of these engines to
        > make
        > > it run
        > > > very well on VegOil, but I need to know about the engine before
        I
        > > embark on
        > > > the project.
        > > >
        > > > I will provide a night's worth of beer for the person who
        answers
        > > all those
        > > > questions (truthfully), so long as I can share it.
        > > >
        > > > Mark
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • jmarkwalker
        Mark, Given the following....... I have signed an NDA with one Chinese Co involved with diesel genset production, I cant reveal all. Will we be able to buy
        Message 3 of 16 , Oct 6, 2006
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          Mark,

          Given the following.......

          "I have signed an NDA with one Chinese Co involved with diesel genset
          production, I cant reveal all."

          Will we be able to buy good chinese gensets (from you you) in the near
          future?
          Will they be good at running on vegoil?

          Mark


          --- In Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com, "marksmbx" <marksmbx@...> wrote:
          >
          > Less fuel = less smoke. But also less power, its a favourite trick
          > among those trying to get a diesel engine car through its MOT. Taxi's
          > do it all the time. The mixture gets a tad lean though and very much
          > under powered.
          >
          > I doubt the problem is compression. Running higher compression for
          > extended periods will likely cause damage anyway. I would look at
          > timing first then the head design and piston crown after that.
          >
          > The indians dont need to cater for smoke emissions like we do. I have
          > told many of them already that unless they get this problem fixed,
          > bye bye EU and US sales.
          >
          > I have signed an NDA with one Chinese Co involved with diesel genset
          > production, I cant reveal all.
          >
          > If you approach Duetz in Germany them may be able to help you.
          >
          > Mark
          >
          > > Thanks for the info - very useful.
          > >
          > > Can you explain some more about 'turning the fuel pump down'. I
          > don't
          > > understand how this could have (anywhere near) the desired effect,
          > > because it would just mean that the engine didn't run at its
          > > designated speed, yes?
          > >
          > > Have you heard of anyone changing (increasing) the compression
          > ratio
          > > in an attempt to reduce the smoke?
          > >
          > > Also, can you point me/us in the direction of these other, better,
          > > similarly priced engines.
          > >
          > > Mark
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com, "marksmbx" <marksmbx@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > AV and PH1 I believe. Read the manuals, its all there.
          > > >
          > > > They are a strong engine, I know more Petter clones with higher
          > > hours
          > > > on them with less problems than CS clones. They are far easier to
          > > > maintain and parts are cheaper. But emissions will be a problem
          > > soon
          > > > enough. A new decision on lower Kw engines will happen in
          > December.
          > > I
          > > > bet the engine Kw limit will claim more engines at lower Kw.
          > > >
          > > > The base design looks almost solid. The combustion is not right
          > > tho.
          > > > Their weakness is the choice of material grade and tolerances
          > > choosen
          > > > by the manufacturer. Kirolskar were the originators of this
          > engine.
          > > > And they made good ones, if you can find one.
          > > >
          > > > Pistons were always alu. Makes sense that way too.
          > > >
          > > > They run fine on veg oil as is. Temperature is the key for WVO
          > and
          > > > with winter approaching many on this list will soon discover the
          > > > lowest temp their engines will start.
          > > >
          > > > You wont like the noise they make or the smoke they emit either!
          > > >
          > > > Other nice things about them, you have a choice of 3 different
          > > weight
          > > > flywheels depending on what your application is. You can rebuild
          > > one
          > > > faster than a CS. You can lift most parts without buggering up
          > your
          > > > back. Their oil pump is very nice and the fuel pump shim idea is
          > so
          > > > familar to anyone who worked on the original petters.
          > > >
          > > > The fuel system is all Mico, or meant to be. There are a lot of
          > > Mico
          > > > fakes in India, buyer beware. They are easy to start and the odd
          > > one
          > > > likes to play it brave and rev like hell until it runs outta fuel
          > > or
          > > > explodes. Dodgy govenor.
          > > >
          > > > If the smoke problem could be cured, I'd have a few. But there
          > are
          > > > other diesel engines out there similar in price that dont smoke
          > and
          > > > have a QC program in place. There are copies of Duetz, Perkins
          > and
          > > > Cummins out there that are well made. Off to China with you.
          > > >
          > > > I tried for months to build a filtering scheme for those engines,
          > > but
          > > > the volume of smoke is just too much to clean up. The combustion
          > > > really needs to be looked at hard. It just aint right.
          > > >
          > > > Turning the fuel pump down is cheating and doesnt solve the
          > > problem,
          > > > only rob you of horses.
          > > >
          > > > Mark
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- In Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com, "mark
          > walker" <j.mark.walker@>
          > > > wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > This is certainly Off Topic, but you are the right audience to
          > > ask
          > > > this
          > > > > question of.....
          > > > >
          > > > > I would like to know about the history of the Indian Petter
          > type
          > > > engine.
          > > > > Which british Petter engine model (or models) is it a copy of?
          > > Are
          > > > these
          > > > > engines any good (by design, I'm not interested in hearing
          > about
          > > > Indian
          > > > > build quality, I want to know what is good about this design)?
          > > > > How long have they been made?
          > > > > What's their weaknesses?
          > > > > How have the Indian's changed themover the years?
          > > > > Were they ever IDI?
          > > > > Did any of them ever have a Cast Iron Piston?
          > > > >
          > > > > I am toying with the idea of modifying one of these engines to
          > > make
          > > > it run
          > > > > very well on VegOil, but I need to know about the engine before
          > I
          > > > embark on
          > > > > the project.
          > > > >
          > > > > I will provide a night's worth of beer for the person who
          > answers
          > > > all those
          > > > > questions (truthfully), so long as I can share it.
          > > > >
          > > > > Mark
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • marksmbx
          Mark, I am designing controls for these people and not selling their product. It is not something I see myself getting involved with, the market is not there
          Message 4 of 16 , Oct 7, 2006
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            Mark,


            I am designing controls for these people and not selling their
            product. It is not something I see myself getting involved with, the
            market is not there for it yet I believe i.e veg oil powered gensets.

            Industry tells you what sells and when I see veg oil powered gensets
            on building sites and in farmers sheds, veg oil will then be a runner
            for the masses. Until then agri diesel will power all these
            commercially sold gensets. Veg oil will have to be widely available
            to purchase before people will buy such gensets. When the local
            garage have it from a pump, then your market exists.

            rant/

            Even if someone were to design or import any diesel genset with a
            view to selling within the EU, it has a long line of redtape and
            compliance to go through. Noise emissions, electrical CE testing,
            exhaust emissions, Machinery Directives and perhaps health & safety
            aspects. All great fun if your into that sort of thing. Could hit 5
            figures for the tests and then you must also have some mechanism to
            ensure your product stays within the guidlines too. That could mean
            for example an exhaust and filter requiring a change every x hours or
            once a year.

            A registry is maintained with every genset sold within the EU. If you
            build one and sell it or import and sell, its details must be sent to
            the desigated authority in the country of sale responsible for
            maintaining the database. If you sell in more than one country, then
            you must send the details to that countries authority too. There is
            no single point of contact for the entire EU for this, yes I know its
            silly.

            You cannot conduct exhaust emissions while running on veg oil, it is
            illegal to do so. The testing must be conducted on pump diesel fuel
            only.

            There is more to this, but the above is a taster for those feeling
            brave.

            end rant/

            I spoke with several people off list regarding the Indian petter type
            engine as a more suitable prime mover. Sure they will work fine, but
            in their current guise they will never pass exhaust emissions testing
            and I do not see a way of filtering so they can comply. The engines
            need more work before they are saleable in the EU and probably the US
            too.

            When you run the numbers on these engines and replace the starter
            motor and alternator with better quality local items, which are
            cheaper here, amazing as it sounds!.....then replace the exhaust for
            a proper silencer, add on some oil filtration, you are not far off
            the cost of a genuine Lister Petter diesel engine that has all
            certifications and high quality build. Your local dealer will also
            carry spares negating the need to keep a stock yourself.

            It hasnt been done already for good reason, plenty importers look at
            India and China for product. If there was money to be made and the
            right product there, we would seen it for sale with one of these
            engines in it.

            India has good engines too, the only real high quality ones I saw
            were made by Kirloskar. They even quote a rebuild time in their
            product guides, thats what I want to see when I look at any new
            engine. Germany has a good share of engines from Kirloskar, no
            problems with them and excellent performance/life.

            I dont wish to sound like I am slating the Indians, they are catering
            for their own home market and the likes of Africa who do not demand
            the same quality we do. What they sell fits their markets fine, it is
            driven by price.

            Us westerners are a pain for Indian manufacturers and we demand more
            than they are accustomed to offering. We buy much less than their
            main customers and building one higher quality engine in a sea of
            regular builds is no easy task for any manufacturer.

            You could buy the parts and build it yourself to ensure the casting
            sand does not become a problem. But you'll have to measure each and
            every part to ensure it is within tolernace and it has been finished
            correctly. There is much time in that.

            Have you gone off the idea to supply veg oil CS powered gensets?

            Mark

            > Given the following.......
            >
            > "I have signed an NDA with one Chinese Co involved with diesel
            genset
            > production, I cant reveal all."
            >
            > Will we be able to buy good chinese gensets (from you you) in the
            near
            > future?
            > Will they be good at running on vegoil?
            >
          • Andy Mahoney (www.homebrewpower.co.uk)
            Mark Is Veg oil not available in every shot and supermarket throughout the world and also in the UK it is approx 50% the cost. That s just the new stuff I am
            Message 5 of 16 , Oct 7, 2006
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              Mark

               

              Is Veg oil not available in every shot and supermarket throughout the world and also in the UK it is approx 50% the cost.

               

              That’s just the new stuff I am talking about.

               

               

               

              Andy Mahoney

              www.homebrewpower.co.uk

               

              From: Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of marksmbx
              Sent: 07 October 2006 11:06
              To: Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [Lister_CSOG] Re: OT: Indian Petter Engines

               

              Mark,

              I am designing controls for these people and not selling their
              product. It is not something I see myself getting involved with, the
              market is not there for it yet I believe i.e veg oil powered gensets.

              Industry tells you what sells and when I see veg oil powered gensets
              on building sites and in farmers sheds, veg oil will then be a runner
              for the masses. Until then agri diesel will power all these
              commercially sold gensets. Veg oil will have to be widely available
              to purchase before people will buy such gensets. When the local
              garage have it from a pump, then your market exists.

              rant/

              Even if someone were to design or import any diesel genset with a
              view to selling within the EU, it has a long line of redtape and
              compliance to go through. Noise emissions, electrical CE testing,
              exhaust emissions, Machinery Directives and perhaps health & safety
              aspects. All great fun if your into that sort of thing. Could hit 5
              figures for the tests and then you must also have some mechanism to
              ensure your product stays within the guidlines too. That could mean
              for example an exhaust and filter requiring a change every x hours or
              once a year.

              A registry is maintained with every genset sold within the EU. If you
              build one and sell it or import and sell, its details must be sent to
              the desigated authority in the country of sale responsible for
              maintaining the database. If you sell in more than one country, then
              you must send the details to that countries authority too. There is
              no single point of contact for the entire EU for this, yes I know its
              silly.

              You cannot conduct exhaust emissions while running on veg oil, it is
              illegal to do so. The testing must be conducted on pump diesel fuel
              only.

              There is more to this, but the above is a taster for those feeling
              brave.

              end rant/

              I spoke with several people off list regarding the Indian petter type
              engine as a more suitable prime mover. Sure they will work fine, but
              in their current guise they will never pass exhaust emissions testing
              and I do not see a way of filtering so they can comply. The engines
              need more work before they are saleable in the EU and probably the US
              too.

              When you run the numbers on these engines and replace the starter
              motor and alternator with better quality local items, which are
              cheaper here, amazing as it sounds!.....then replace the exhaust for
              a proper silencer, add on some oil filtration, you are not far off
              the cost of a genuine Lister Petter diesel engine that has all
              certifications and high quality build. Your local dealer will also
              carry spares negating the need to keep a stock yourself.

              It hasnt been done already for good reason, plenty importers look at
              India and China for product. If there was money to be made and the
              right product there, we would seen it for sale with one of these
              engines in it.

              India has good engines too, the only real high quality ones I saw
              were made by Kirloskar. They even quote a rebuild time in their
              product guides, thats what I want to see when I look at any new
              engine. Germany has a good share of engines from Kirloskar, no
              problems with them and excellent performance/life.

              I dont wish to sound like I am slating the Indians, they are catering
              for their own home market and the likes of Africa who do not demand
              the same quality we do. What they sell fits their markets fine, it is
              driven by price.

              Us westerners are a pain for Indian manufacturers and we demand more
              than they are accustomed to offering. We buy much less than their
              main customers and building one higher quality engine in a sea of
              regular builds is no easy task for any manufacturer.

              You could buy the parts and build it yourself to ensure the casting
              sand does not become a problem. But you'll have to measure each and
              every part to ensure it is within tolernace and it has been finished
              correctly. There is much time in that.

              Have you gone off the idea to supply veg oil CS powered gensets?

              Mark

              > Given the following.......
              >
              > "I have signed an NDA with one Chinese Co involved with diesel
              genset
              > production, I cant reveal all."
              >
              > Will we be able to buy good chinese gensets (from you you) in the
              near
              > future?
              > Will they be good at running on vegoil?
              >

            • marksmbx
              Hi Andy, When used as a fuel the customs people must be satisfied. They are the rules over this side, I dunno what the law in the UK is on that. I am sure many
              Message 6 of 16 , Oct 7, 2006
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                Hi Andy,


                When used as a fuel the customs people must be satisfied. They are
                the rules over this side, I dunno what the law in the UK is on that.

                I am sure many dont care about the law, or the customs man. I am
                posting this as a heads up.

                Mark

                > Is Veg oil not available in every shot and supermarket throughout
                the world
                > and also in the UK it is approx 50% the cost.
                >
                >
                >
                > That's just the new stuff I am talking about.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Andy Mahoney
                >
                > www.homebrewpower.co.uk
                >
                >
                >
                > From: Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com] On
                > Behalf Of marksmbx
                > Sent: 07 October 2006 11:06
                > To: Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [Lister_CSOG] Re: OT: Indian Petter Engines
                >
                >
                >
                > Mark,
                >
                > I am designing controls for these people and not selling their
                > product. It is not something I see myself getting involved with,
                the
                > market is not there for it yet I believe i.e veg oil powered
                gensets.
                >
                > Industry tells you what sells and when I see veg oil powered
                gensets
                > on building sites and in farmers sheds, veg oil will then be a
                runner
                > for the masses. Until then agri diesel will power all these
                > commercially sold gensets. Veg oil will have to be widely available
                > to purchase before people will buy such gensets. When the local
                > garage have it from a pump, then your market exists.
                >
                > rant/
                >
                > Even if someone were to design or import any diesel genset with a
                > view to selling within the EU, it has a long line of redtape and
                > compliance to go through. Noise emissions, electrical CE testing,
                > exhaust emissions, Machinery Directives and perhaps health & safety
                > aspects. All great fun if your into that sort of thing. Could hit 5
                > figures for the tests and then you must also have some mechanism to
                > ensure your product stays within the guidlines too. That could mean
                > for example an exhaust and filter requiring a change every x hours
                or
                > once a year.
                >
                > A registry is maintained with every genset sold within the EU. If
                you
                > build one and sell it or import and sell, its details must be sent
                to
                > the desigated authority in the country of sale responsible for
                > maintaining the database. If you sell in more than one country,
                then
                > you must send the details to that countries authority too. There is
                > no single point of contact for the entire EU for this, yes I know
                its
                > silly.
                >
                > You cannot conduct exhaust emissions while running on veg oil, it
                is
                > illegal to do so. The testing must be conducted on pump diesel fuel
                > only.
                >
                > There is more to this, but the above is a taster for those feeling
                > brave.
                >
                > end rant/
                >
                > I spoke with several people off list regarding the Indian petter
                type
                > engine as a more suitable prime mover. Sure they will work fine,
                but
                > in their current guise they will never pass exhaust emissions
                testing
                > and I do not see a way of filtering so they can comply. The engines
                > need more work before they are saleable in the EU and probably the
                US
                > too.
                >
                > When you run the numbers on these engines and replace the starter
                > motor and alternator with better quality local items, which are
                > cheaper here, amazing as it sounds!.....then replace the exhaust
                for
                > a proper silencer, add on some oil filtration, you are not far off
                > the cost of a genuine Lister Petter diesel engine that has all
                > certifications and high quality build. Your local dealer will also
                > carry spares negating the need to keep a stock yourself.
                >
                > It hasnt been done already for good reason, plenty importers look
                at
                > India and China for product. If there was money to be made and the
                > right product there, we would seen it for sale with one of these
                > engines in it.
                >
                > India has good engines too, the only real high quality ones I saw
                > were made by Kirloskar. They even quote a rebuild time in their
                > product guides, thats what I want to see when I look at any new
                > engine. Germany has a good share of engines from Kirloskar, no
                > problems with them and excellent performance/life.
                >
                > I dont wish to sound like I am slating the Indians, they are
                catering
                > for their own home market and the likes of Africa who do not demand
                > the same quality we do. What they sell fits their markets fine, it
                is
                > driven by price.
                >
                > Us westerners are a pain for Indian manufacturers and we demand
                more
                > than they are accustomed to offering. We buy much less than their
                > main customers and building one higher quality engine in a sea of
                > regular builds is no easy task for any manufacturer.
                >
                > You could buy the parts and build it yourself to ensure the casting
                > sand does not become a problem. But you'll have to measure each and
                > every part to ensure it is within tolernace and it has been
                finished
                > correctly. There is much time in that.
                >
                > Have you gone off the idea to supply veg oil CS powered gensets?
                >
                > Mark
                >
                > > Given the following.......
                > >
                > > "I have signed an NDA with one Chinese Co involved with diesel
                > genset
                > > production, I cant reveal all."
                > >
                > > Will we be able to buy good chinese gensets (from you you) in the
                > near
                > > future?
                > > Will they be good at running on vegoil?
                > >
                >
              • Tim
                Hi Guys, My veg oil cars have all had their emissions tested on veg oil since 1999 in their NCT s (GB users read MOT here). Are these emission tests invalid?
                Message 7 of 16 , Oct 7, 2006
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Guys,
                  My veg oil cars have all had their emissions tested on veg oil since 1999 in their NCT's (GB users read MOT here). Are these emission tests invalid? were the tests illegal? I don't get this not allowed to test engine emissions on veg thing? Incidentally al my veg oil cars display a much lower emissions score on veg than on diesel.

                  Tim

                  On 10/7/06, marksmbx <marksmbx@...> wrote:

                  Hi Andy,

                  When used as a fuel the customs people must be satisfied. They are
                  the rules over this side, I dunno what the law in the UK is on that.

                  I am sure many dont care about the law, or the customs man. I am
                  posting this as a heads up.



                  Mark

                  > Is Veg oil not available in every shot and supermarket throughout
                  the world
                  > and also in the UK it is approx 50% the cost.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > That's just the new stuff I am talking about.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Andy Mahoney
                  >
                  > www.homebrewpower.co.uk
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > From: Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com] On
                  > Behalf Of marksmbx
                  > Sent: 07 October 2006 11:06
                  > To: Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [Lister_CSOG] Re: OT: Indian Petter Engines
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Mark,
                  >
                  > I am designing controls for these people and not selling their
                  > product. It is not something I see myself getting involved with,
                  the
                  > market is not there for it yet I believe i.e veg oil powered
                  gensets.
                  >
                  > Industry tells you what sells and when I see veg oil powered
                  gensets
                  > on building sites and in farmers sheds, veg oil will then be a
                  runner
                  > for the masses. Until then agri diesel will power all these
                  > commercially sold gensets. Veg oil will have to be widely available
                  > to purchase before people will buy such gensets. When the local
                  > garage have it from a pump, then your market exists.
                  >
                  > rant/
                  >
                  > Even if someone were to design or import any diesel genset with a
                  > view to selling within the EU, it has a long line of redtape and
                  > compliance to go through. Noise emissions, electrical CE testing,
                  > exhaust emissions, Machinery Directives and perhaps health & safety
                  > aspects. All great fun if your into that sort of thing. Could hit 5
                  > figures for the tests and then you must also have some mechanism to
                  > ensure your product stays within the guidlines too. That could mean
                  > for example an exhaust and filter requiring a change every x hours
                  or
                  > once a year.
                  >
                  > A registry is maintained with every genset sold within the EU. If
                  you
                  > build one and sell it or import and sell, its details must be sent
                  to
                  > the desigated authority in the country of sale responsible for
                  > maintaining the database. If you sell in more than one country,
                  then
                  > you must send the details to that countries authority too. There is
                  > no single point of contact for the entire EU for this, yes I know
                  its
                  > silly.
                  >
                  > You cannot conduct exhaust emissions while running on veg oil, it
                  is
                  > illegal to do so. The testing must be conducted on pump diesel fuel
                  > only.
                  >
                  > There is more to this, but the above is a taster for those feeling
                  > brave.
                  >
                  > end rant/
                  >
                  > I spoke with several people off list regarding the Indian petter
                  type
                  > engine as a more suitable prime mover. Sure they will work fine,
                  but
                  > in their current guise they will never pass exhaust emissions
                  testing
                  > and I do not see a way of filtering so they can comply. The engines
                  > need more work before they are saleable in the EU and probably the
                  US
                  > too.
                  >
                  > When you run the numbers on these engines and replace the starter
                  > motor and alternator with better quality local items, which are
                  > cheaper here, amazing as it sounds!.....then replace the exhaust
                  for
                  > a proper silencer, add on some oil filtration, you are not far off
                  > the cost of a genuine Lister Petter diesel engine that has all
                  > certifications and high quality build. Your local dealer will also
                  > carry spares negating the need to keep a stock yourself.
                  >
                  > It hasnt been done already for good reason, plenty importers look
                  at
                  > India and China for product. If there was money to be made and the
                  > right product there, we would seen it for sale with one of these
                  > engines in it.
                  >
                  > India has good engines too, the only real high quality ones I saw
                  > were made by Kirloskar. They even quote a rebuild time in their
                  > product guides, thats what I want to see when I look at any new
                  > engine. Germany has a good share of engines from Kirloskar, no
                  > problems with them and excellent performance/life.
                  >
                  > I dont wish to sound like I am slating the Indians, they are
                  catering
                  > for their own home market and the likes of Africa who do not demand
                  > the same quality we do. What they sell fits their markets fine, it
                  is
                  > driven by price.
                  >
                  > Us westerners are a pain for Indian manufacturers and we demand
                  more
                  > than they are accustomed to offering. We buy much less than their
                  > main customers and building one higher quality engine in a sea of
                  > regular builds is no easy task for any manufacturer.
                  >
                  > You could buy the parts and build it yourself to ensure the casting
                  > sand does not become a problem. But you'll have to measure each and
                  > every part to ensure it is within tolernace and it has been
                  finished
                  > correctly. There is much time in that.
                  >
                  > Have you gone off the idea to supply veg oil CS powered gensets?
                  >
                  > Mark
                  >
                  > > Given the following.......
                  > >
                  > > "I have signed an NDA with one Chinese Co involved with diesel
                  > genset
                  > > production, I cant reveal all."
                  > >
                  > > Will we be able to buy good chinese gensets (from you you) in the
                  > near
                  > > future?
                  > > Will they be good at running on vegoil?
                  > >
                  >




                  --
                  All the Best
                  Tim from Tang

                  It is never too late to have a happy childhood.
                • marksmbx
                  Hi Tim, The emissions testing documentation for new engine certification for introduction in the EU market place says the emissions testing must be conducted
                  Message 8 of 16 , Oct 7, 2006
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Tim,


                    The emissions testing documentation for new engine certification for
                    introduction in the EU market place says the emissions testing must
                    be conducted on conventional diesel fuel. The use of veg oil is
                    expressly forbidden!

                    Read 'new engine certification' Tim. I do not know if the fuel is
                    defined for NCT/DOE testing subsequent to an engine's legal
                    introduction.

                    All diesel engines ran on veg oil I saw had impressive test reults.
                    There is an unwritten and interesting thread in the documentation if
                    you can spot it.

                    Keep us posted on your cold starting on veg oil as the weather gets
                    colder Tim. I am keenly interested in that.

                    Mark

                    > My veg oil cars have all had their emissions tested on veg oil
                    since 1999 in
                    > their NCT's (GB users read MOT here). Are these emission tests
                    invalid? were
                    > the tests illegal? I don't get this not allowed to test engine
                    emissions on
                    > veg thing? Incidentally al my veg oil cars display a much lower
                    emissions
                    > score on veg than on diesel.
                    >
                    > Tim
                    >
                    > On 10/7/06, marksmbx <marksmbx@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi Andy,
                    > >
                    > > When used as a fuel the customs people must be satisfied. They are
                    > > the rules over this side, I dunno what the law in the UK is on
                    that.
                    > >
                    > > I am sure many dont care about the law, or the customs man. I am
                    > > posting this as a heads up.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Mark
                    > >
                    > > > Is Veg oil not available in every shot and supermarket
                    throughout
                    > > the world
                    > > > and also in the UK it is approx 50% the cost.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > That's just the new stuff I am talking about.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Andy Mahoney
                    > > >
                    > > > www.homebrewpower.co.uk
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > From: Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com
                    <Lister_CSOG%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > [mailto:Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com
                    <Lister_CSOG%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                    > > > Behalf Of marksmbx
                    > > > Sent: 07 October 2006 11:06
                    > > > To: Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com <Lister_CSOG%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > Subject: [Lister_CSOG] Re: OT: Indian Petter Engines
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Mark,
                    > > >
                    > > > I am designing controls for these people and not selling their
                    > > > product. It is not something I see myself getting involved with,
                    > > the
                    > > > market is not there for it yet I believe i.e veg oil powered
                    > > gensets.
                    > > >
                    > > > Industry tells you what sells and when I see veg oil powered
                    > > gensets
                    > > > on building sites and in farmers sheds, veg oil will then be a
                    > > runner
                    > > > for the masses. Until then agri diesel will power all these
                    > > > commercially sold gensets. Veg oil will have to be widely
                    available
                    > > > to purchase before people will buy such gensets. When the local
                    > > > garage have it from a pump, then your market exists.
                    > > >
                    > > > rant/
                    > > >
                    > > > Even if someone were to design or import any diesel genset with
                    a
                    > > > view to selling within the EU, it has a long line of redtape and
                    > > > compliance to go through. Noise emissions, electrical CE
                    testing,
                    > > > exhaust emissions, Machinery Directives and perhaps health &
                    safety
                    > > > aspects. All great fun if your into that sort of thing. Could
                    hit 5
                    > > > figures for the tests and then you must also have some
                    mechanism to
                    > > > ensure your product stays within the guidlines too. That could
                    mean
                    > > > for example an exhaust and filter requiring a change every x
                    hours
                    > > or
                    > > > once a year.
                    > > >
                    > > > A registry is maintained with every genset sold within the EU.
                    If
                    > > you
                    > > > build one and sell it or import and sell, its details must be
                    sent
                    > > to
                    > > > the desigated authority in the country of sale responsible for
                    > > > maintaining the database. If you sell in more than one country,
                    > > then
                    > > > you must send the details to that countries authority too.
                    There is
                    > > > no single point of contact for the entire EU for this, yes I
                    know
                    > > its
                    > > > silly.
                    > > >
                    > > > You cannot conduct exhaust emissions while running on veg oil,
                    it
                    > > is
                    > > > illegal to do so. The testing must be conducted on pump diesel
                    fuel
                    > > > only.
                    > > >
                    > > > There is more to this, but the above is a taster for those
                    feeling
                    > > > brave.
                    > > >
                    > > > end rant/
                    > > >
                    > > > I spoke with several people off list regarding the Indian petter
                    > > type
                    > > > engine as a more suitable prime mover. Sure they will work fine,
                    > > but
                    > > > in their current guise they will never pass exhaust emissions
                    > > testing
                    > > > and I do not see a way of filtering so they can comply. The
                    engines
                    > > > need more work before they are saleable in the EU and probably
                    the
                    > > US
                    > > > too.
                    > > >
                    > > > When you run the numbers on these engines and replace the
                    starter
                    > > > motor and alternator with better quality local items, which are
                    > > > cheaper here, amazing as it sounds!.....then replace the exhaust
                    > > for
                    > > > a proper silencer, add on some oil filtration, you are not far
                    off
                    > > > the cost of a genuine Lister Petter diesel engine that has all
                    > > > certifications and high quality build. Your local dealer will
                    also
                    > > > carry spares negating the need to keep a stock yourself.
                    > > >
                    > > > It hasnt been done already for good reason, plenty importers
                    look
                    > > at
                    > > > India and China for product. If there was money to be made and
                    the
                    > > > right product there, we would seen it for sale with one of these
                    > > > engines in it.
                    > > >
                    > > > India has good engines too, the only real high quality ones I
                    saw
                    > > > were made by Kirloskar. They even quote a rebuild time in their
                    > > > product guides, thats what I want to see when I look at any new
                    > > > engine. Germany has a good share of engines from Kirloskar, no
                    > > > problems with them and excellent performance/life.
                    > > >
                    > > > I dont wish to sound like I am slating the Indians, they are
                    > > catering
                    > > > for their own home market and the likes of Africa who do not
                    demand
                    > > > the same quality we do. What they sell fits their markets fine,
                    it
                    > > is
                    > > > driven by price.
                    > > >
                    > > > Us westerners are a pain for Indian manufacturers and we demand
                    > > more
                    > > > than they are accustomed to offering. We buy much less than
                    their
                    > > > main customers and building one higher quality engine in a sea
                    of
                    > > > regular builds is no easy task for any manufacturer.
                    > > >
                    > > > You could buy the parts and build it yourself to ensure the
                    casting
                    > > > sand does not become a problem. But you'll have to measure each
                    and
                    > > > every part to ensure it is within tolernace and it has been
                    > > finished
                    > > > correctly. There is much time in that.
                    > > >
                    > > > Have you gone off the idea to supply veg oil CS powered gensets?
                    > > >
                    > > > Mark
                    > > >
                    > > > > Given the following.......
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "I have signed an NDA with one Chinese Co involved with diesel
                    > > > genset
                    > > > > production, I cant reveal all."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Will we be able to buy good chinese gensets (from you you) in
                    the
                    > > > near
                    > > > > future?
                    > > > > Will they be good at running on vegoil?
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > All the Best
                    > Tim from Tang
                    >
                    > It is never too late to have a happy childhood.
                    >
                  • Darald Bantel
                    Here in Alberta Canada the tax is ONLY for on road use. For stationary and off road equipment (read most industrial equipment) there is no tax. Darald
                    Message 9 of 16 , Oct 7, 2006
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Here in Alberta Canada the tax is ONLY for on road use. For stationary
                      and off road equipment (read most industrial equipment) there is no tax.

                      Darald

                      On Sat, 2006-10-07 at 12:53 +0000, marksmbx wrote:
                      > Hi Andy,
                      >
                      >
                      > When used as a fuel the customs people must be satisfied. They are
                      > the rules over this side, I dunno what the law in the UK is on that.
                      >
                      > I am sure many dont care about the law, or the customs man. I am
                      > posting this as a heads up.
                      >
                      > Mark
                      >
                      > > Is Veg oil not available in every shot and supermarket throughout
                      > the world
                      > > and also in the UK it is approx 50% the cost.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > That's just the new stuff I am talking about.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Andy Mahoney
                      > >
                      > > www.homebrewpower.co.uk
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > From: Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com
                      > [mailto:Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com] On
                      > > Behalf Of marksmbx
                      > > Sent: 07 October 2006 11:06
                      > > To: Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Subject: [Lister_CSOG] Re: OT: Indian Petter Engines
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Mark,
                      > >
                      > > I am designing controls for these people and not selling their
                      > > product. It is not something I see myself getting involved with,
                      > the
                      > > market is not there for it yet I believe i.e veg oil powered
                      > gensets.
                      > >
                      > > Industry tells you what sells and when I see veg oil powered
                      > gensets
                      > > on building sites and in farmers sheds, veg oil will then be a
                      > runner
                      > > for the masses. Until then agri diesel will power all these
                      > > commercially sold gensets. Veg oil will have to be widely available
                      > > to purchase before people will buy such gensets. When the local
                      > > garage have it from a pump, then your market exists.
                      > >
                      > > rant/
                      > >
                      > > Even if someone were to design or import any diesel genset with a
                      > > view to selling within the EU, it has a long line of redtape and
                      > > compliance to go through. Noise emissions, electrical CE testing,
                      > > exhaust emissions, Machinery Directives and perhaps health & safety
                      > > aspects. All great fun if your into that sort of thing. Could hit 5
                      > > figures for the tests and then you must also have some mechanism to
                      > > ensure your product stays within the guidlines too. That could mean
                      > > for example an exhaust and filter requiring a change every x hours
                      > or
                      > > once a year.
                      > >
                      > > A registry is maintained with every genset sold within the EU. If
                      > you
                      > > build one and sell it or import and sell, its details must be sent
                      > to
                      > > the desigated authority in the country of sale responsible for
                      > > maintaining the database. If you sell in more than one country,
                      > then
                      > > you must send the details to that countries authority too. There is
                      > > no single point of contact for the entire EU for this, yes I know
                      > its
                      > > silly.
                      > >
                      > > You cannot conduct exhaust emissions while running on veg oil, it
                      > is
                      > > illegal to do so. The testing must be conducted on pump diesel fuel
                      > > only.
                      > >
                      > > There is more to this, but the above is a taster for those feeling
                      > > brave.
                      > >
                      > > end rant/
                      > >
                      > > I spoke with several people off list regarding the Indian petter
                      > type
                      > > engine as a more suitable prime mover. Sure they will work fine,
                      > but
                      > > in their current guise they will never pass exhaust emissions
                      > testing
                      > > and I do not see a way of filtering so they can comply. The engines
                      > > need more work before they are saleable in the EU and probably the
                      > US
                      > > too.
                      > >
                      > > When you run the numbers on these engines and replace the starter
                      > > motor and alternator with better quality local items, which are
                      > > cheaper here, amazing as it sounds!.....then replace the exhaust
                      > for
                      > > a proper silencer, add on some oil filtration, you are not far off
                      > > the cost of a genuine Lister Petter diesel engine that has all
                      > > certifications and high quality build. Your local dealer will also
                      > > carry spares negating the need to keep a stock yourself.
                      > >
                      > > It hasnt been done already for good reason, plenty importers look
                      > at
                      > > India and China for product. If there was money to be made and the
                      > > right product there, we would seen it for sale with one of these
                      > > engines in it.
                      > >
                      > > India has good engines too, the only real high quality ones I saw
                      > > were made by Kirloskar. They even quote a rebuild time in their
                      > > product guides, thats what I want to see when I look at any new
                      > > engine. Germany has a good share of engines from Kirloskar, no
                      > > problems with them and excellent performance/life.
                      > >
                      > > I dont wish to sound like I am slating the Indians, they are
                      > catering
                      > > for their own home market and the likes of Africa who do not demand
                      > > the same quality we do. What they sell fits their markets fine, it
                      > is
                      > > driven by price.
                      > >
                      > > Us westerners are a pain for Indian manufacturers and we demand
                      > more
                      > > than they are accustomed to offering. We buy much less than their
                      > > main customers and building one higher quality engine in a sea of
                      > > regular builds is no easy task for any manufacturer.
                      > >
                      > > You could buy the parts and build it yourself to ensure the casting
                      > > sand does not become a problem. But you'll have to measure each and
                      > > every part to ensure it is within tolernace and it has been
                      > finished
                      > > correctly. There is much time in that.
                      > >
                      > > Have you gone off the idea to supply veg oil CS powered gensets?
                      > >
                      > > Mark
                      > >
                      > > > Given the following.......
                      > > >
                      > > > "I have signed an NDA with one Chinese Co involved with diesel
                      > > genset
                      > > > production, I cant reveal all."
                      > > >
                      > > > Will we be able to buy good chinese gensets (from you you) in the
                      > > near
                      > > > future?
                      > > > Will they be good at running on vegoil?
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Tim
                      Hi Mark, Cold starting at the moment is still relatively easy, I am not supplying the engine with hot oil until it warms up so it is cold starting on cold veg.
                      Message 10 of 16 , Oct 7, 2006
                      View Source
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Mark,
                        Cold starting at the moment is still relatively easy, I am not supplying the engine with hot oil until it warms up so it is cold starting on cold veg. I am starting at the moment with a gas torch flame over the air intake pipe, I simply remove the air cleaner, and hold the torch over the opening as I crank her, use the bottle of the gas torch to knock out the decompressor, and she starts as quick as you can get the torch back over the air intake, a glow plug would be a lot less hassle, unfortunately I do not have a spare COV plug to machine to take one, and I am unwilling to risk machining the one I have and be left without heat and power in the event of a mishap. Anybody out there with a COV plug to sell/donate?

                        I also desperately want a couple of spare high pressure injector lines for the veg conversion of the engine. The plan is to fit an aluminium block sandwich (with the hp line in a groove in the centre) to the water pump location in the engine head (the water pump has been removed), this should heat the veg in the high pressure line nicely by conduction when the engine is hot.

                        For cold starting I will fit a glow plug to the COV plug and a VOW2 glow plug based fuel heater will be added (on top of the HP line sandwich already bolted to the head would probably be best). The VOW 2 model that I will use is the twin chamber model the VOW2 C I think (David says that he will be providing VOW 2's with proper glow plug seats in the future), Both glow plugs will only be energised for cold starting. The primary heated chamber of the vow 2 will be plumbed in just before the ip, the secondary chamber will be plumbed into the wick filter feed. With proper insulation of the al block the heat from the engine head should keep everything tickety boo whilst she is running.

                        I plan on running a two tank fuel system on my engine, with a startup tank (the original one) containing the very best quality clear waste veg oil that I can get, and a run tank (which also feeds the veg oil boiler) containing gloopy stuff and heated with the heat from either the engine or the veg oil boiler (it's heating coil is in parallel with the coil in my hot water cylinder). Fuel changeover is acomplished with a valve on both tank feeds, and will use two fuel filters. The original wick filter is used for startup fuel, and the run fuel will use a toyota/VW golf car fuel filter (cheap elements) with a coolant powered heating coil around it in an insulated box. The gloopy "run fuel" heating will be accomplished with a pipe in pipe system. There is a primary bag filter in the gloop tank which already feeds the veg oil boiler.

                        Tim





                        On 10/7/06, marksmbx < marksmbx@...> wrote:

                        Hi Tim,

                        The emissions testing documentation for new engine certification for
                        introduction in the EU market place says the emissions testing must
                        be conducted on conventional diesel fuel. The use of veg oil is
                        expressly forbidden!

                        Read 'new engine certification' Tim. I do not know if the fuel is
                        defined for NCT/DOE testing subsequent to an engine's legal
                        introduction.

                        All diesel engines ran on veg oil I saw had impressive test reults.
                        There is an unwritten and interesting thread in the documentation if
                        you can spot it.

                        Keep us posted on your cold starting on veg oil as the weather gets
                        colder Tim. I am keenly interested in that.

                        Mark

                        > My veg oil cars have all had their emissions tested on veg oil
                        since 1999 in
                        > their NCT's (GB users read MOT here). Are these emission tests
                        invalid? were
                        > the tests illegal? I don't get this not allowed to test engine
                        emissions on
                        > veg thing? Incidentally al my veg oil cars display a much lower
                        emissions
                        > score on veg than on diesel.
                        >
                        > Tim
                        >
                        > On 10/7/06, marksmbx <marksmbx@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hi Andy,
                        > >
                        > > When used as a fuel the customs people must be satisfied. They are
                        > > the rules over this side, I dunno what the law in the UK is on
                        that.
                        > >
                        > > I am sure many dont care about the law, or the customs man. I am
                        > > posting this as a heads up.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Mark
                        > >
                        > > > Is Veg oil not available in every shot and supermarket
                        throughout
                        > > the world
                        > > > and also in the UK it is approx 50% the cost.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > That's just the new stuff I am talking about.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Andy Mahoney
                        > > >
                        > > > www.homebrewpower.co.uk
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > From: Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com
                        <Lister_CSOG%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > [mailto:Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com
                        <Lister_CSOG%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                        > > > Behalf Of marksmbx
                        > > > Sent: 07 October 2006 11:06
                        > > > To: Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com <Lister_CSOG%40yahoogroups.com>


                        > > > Subject: [Lister_CSOG] Re: OT: Indian Petter Engines
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Mark,
                        > > >
                        > > > I am designing controls for these people and not selling their
                        > > > product. It is not something I see myself getting involved with,
                        > > the
                        > > > market is not there for it yet I believe i.e veg oil powered
                        > > gensets.
                        > > >
                        > > > Industry tells you what sells and when I see veg oil powered
                        > > gensets
                        > > > on building sites and in farmers sheds, veg oil will then be a
                        > > runner
                        > > > for the masses. Until then agri diesel will power all these
                        > > > commercially sold gensets. Veg oil will have to be widely
                        available
                        > > > to purchase before people will buy such gensets. When the local
                        > > > garage have it from a pump, then your market exists.
                        > > >
                        > > > rant/
                        > > >
                        > > > Even if someone were to design or import any diesel genset with
                        a
                        > > > view to selling within the EU, it has a long line of redtape and
                        > > > compliance to go through. Noise emissions, electrical CE
                        testing,
                        > > > exhaust emissions, Machinery Directives and perhaps health &
                        safety
                        > > > aspects. All great fun if your into that sort of thing. Could
                        hit 5
                        > > > figures for the tests and then you must also have some
                        mechanism to
                        > > > ensure your product stays within the guidlines too. That could
                        mean
                        > > > for example an exhaust and filter requiring a change every x
                        hours
                        > > or
                        > > > once a year.
                        > > >
                        > > > A registry is maintained with every genset sold within the EU.
                        If
                        > > you
                        > > > build one and sell it or import and sell, its details must be
                        sent
                        > > to
                        > > > the desigated authority in the country of sale responsible for
                        > > > maintaining the database. If you sell in more than one country,
                        > > then
                        > > > you must send the details to that countries authority too.
                        There is
                        > > > no single point of contact for the entire EU for this, yes I
                        know
                        > > its
                        > > > silly.
                        > > >
                        > > > You cannot conduct exhaust emissions while running on veg oil,
                        it
                        > > is
                        > > > illegal to do so. The testing must be conducted on pump diesel
                        fuel
                        > > > only.
                        > > >
                        > > > There is more to this, but the above is a taster for those
                        feeling
                        > > > brave.
                        > > >
                        > > > end rant/
                        > > >
                        > > > I spoke with several people off list regarding the Indian petter
                        > > type
                        > > > engine as a more suitable prime mover. Sure they will work fine,
                        > > but
                        > > > in their current guise they will never pass exhaust emissions
                        > > testing
                        > > > and I do not see a way of filtering so they can comply. The
                        engines
                        > > > need more work before they are saleable in the EU and probably
                        the
                        > > US
                        > > > too.
                        > > >
                        > > > When you run the numbers on these engines and replace the
                        starter
                        > > > motor and alternator with better quality local items, which are
                        > > > cheaper here, amazing as it sounds!.....then replace the exhaust
                        > > for
                        > > > a proper silencer, add on some oil filtration, you are not far
                        off
                        > > > the cost of a genuine Lister Petter diesel engine that has all
                        > > > certifications and high quality build. Your local dealer will
                        also
                        > > > carry spares negating the need to keep a stock yourself.
                        > > >
                        > > > It hasnt been done already for good reason, plenty importers
                        look
                        > > at
                        > > > India and China for product. If there was money to be made and
                        the
                        > > > right product there, we would seen it for sale with one of these
                        > > > engines in it.
                        > > >
                        > > > India has good engines too, the only real high quality ones I
                        saw
                        > > > were made by Kirloskar. They even quote a rebuild time in their
                        > > > product guides, thats what I want to see when I look at any new
                        > > > engine. Germany has a good share of engines from Kirloskar, no
                        > > > problems with them and excellent performance/life.
                        > > >
                        > > > I dont wish to sound like I am slating the Indians, they are
                        > > catering
                        > > > for their own home market and the likes of Africa who do not
                        demand
                        > > > the same quality we do. What they sell fits their markets fine,
                        it
                        > > is
                        > > > driven by price.
                        > > >
                        > > > Us westerners are a pain for Indian manufacturers and we demand
                        > > more
                        > > > than they are accustomed to offering. We buy much less than
                        their
                        > > > main customers and building one higher quality engine in a sea
                        of
                        > > > regular builds is no easy task for any manufacturer.
                        > > >
                        > > > You could buy the parts and build it yourself to ensure the
                        casting
                        > > > sand does not become a problem. But you'll have to measure each
                        and
                        > > > every part to ensure it is within tolernace and it has been
                        > > finished
                        > > > correctly. There is much time in that.
                        > > >
                        > > > Have you gone off the idea to supply veg oil CS powered gensets?
                        > > >
                        > > > Mark
                        > > >
                        > > > > Given the following.......
                        > > > >
                        > > > > "I have signed an NDA with one Chinese Co involved with diesel
                        > > > genset
                        > > > > production, I cant reveal all."
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Will we be able to buy good chinese gensets (from you you) in
                        the
                        > > > near
                        > > > > future?
                        > > > > Will they be good at running on vegoil?
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > All the Best
                        > Tim from Tang
                        >
                        > It is never too late to have a happy childhood.
                        >




                        --
                        All the Best
                        Tim from Tang

                        It is never too late to have a happy childhood.
                      • marksmbx
                        Hi Tim, I am surprised that at the relatively warm temps we still have, you need heat to start the veg oil. Didnt you have an old Zetor tractor
                        Message 11 of 16 , Oct 7, 2006
                        View Source
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                          Hi Tim,


                          I am surprised that at the relatively warm temps we still have, you
                          need heat to start the veg oil.

                          Didnt you have an old Zetor tractor there?....extract glow plug fella!

                          If you havent got one there, go to the scrappie and look for a diesel
                          engine and take one or two out. There is a threaded portion you will
                          have to grab hold of and a draw hammer works well for that. The type
                          of thing some panel beaters use to pull out stubborn dents. I do not
                          know if draw hammer is the correct name, it is what I always heard
                          them called.

                          When you get your alu block mounted, build a cardboard frame around
                          it and leave say a 1 inch gap all round, hold the cardboard together
                          with tape. Then get a can of expanding foam and start filling. Let it
                          all get hard and take of the cardboard. The added insulation will pay
                          dividens. Insulate the fuel lines and filter if you can with pipe
                          insualtion or fiberglass.

                          BTW I like gloopy word, very descriptive and easy to visualise. The
                          only gloop I had was waste engine oil, its a bugger to filter right.
                          I am curious how this will go this coming winter now that I have a CS
                          running again and indoors (workshop), such luxury. It is in there to
                          give me light while the landie is worked on over the winter and keep
                          my arse warm while cursing under the rover.

                          Mark

                          > Cold starting at the moment is still relatively easy, I am not
                          supplying the
                          > engine with hot oil until it warms up so it is cold starting on
                          cold veg. I
                          > am starting at the moment with a gas torch flame over the air
                          intake pipe, I
                          > simply remove the air cleaner, and hold the torch over the opening
                          as I
                          > crank her, use the bottle of the gas torch to knock out the
                          decompressor,
                          > and she starts as quick as you can get the torch back over the air
                          intake, a
                          > glow plug would be a lot less hassle, unfortunately I do not have a
                          spare
                          > COV plug to machine to take one, and I am unwilling to risk
                          machining the
                          > one I have and be left without heat and power in the event of a
                          mishap.
                          > Anybody out there with a COV plug to sell/donate?
                          >
                          > I also desperately want a couple of spare high pressure injector
                          lines for
                          > the veg conversion of the engine. The plan is to fit an aluminium
                          block
                          > sandwich (with the hp line in a groove in the centre) to the water
                          pump
                          > location in the engine head (the water pump has been removed), this
                          should
                          > heat the veg in the high pressure line nicely by conduction when
                          the engine
                          > is hot.
                          >
                          > For cold starting I will fit a glow plug to the COV plug and a VOW2
                          glow
                          > plug based fuel heater will be added (on top of the HP line
                          sandwich already
                          > bolted to the head would probably be best). The VOW 2 model that I
                          will use
                          > is the twin chamber model the VOW2 C I think (David says that he
                          will be
                          > providing VOW 2's with proper glow plug seats in the future), Both
                          glow
                          > plugs will only be energised for cold starting. The primary heated
                          chamber
                          > of the vow 2 will be plumbed in just before the ip, the secondary
                          chamber
                          > will be plumbed into the wick filter feed. With proper insulation
                          of the al
                          > block the heat from the engine head should keep everything tickety
                          boo
                          > whilst she is running.
                          >
                          > I plan on running a two tank fuel system on my engine, with a
                          startup tank
                          > (the original one) containing the very best quality clear waste veg
                          oil that
                          > I can get, and a run tank (which also feeds the veg oil boiler)
                          containing
                          > gloopy stuff and heated with the heat from either the engine or the
                          veg oil
                          > boiler (it's heating coil is in parallel with the coil in my hot
                          water
                          > cylinder). Fuel changeover is acomplished with a valve on both tank
                          feeds,
                          > and will use two fuel filters. The original wick filter is used for
                          startup
                          > fuel, and the run fuel will use a toyota/VW golf car fuel filter
                          (cheap
                          > elements) with a coolant powered heating coil around it in an
                          insulated box.
                          > The gloopy "run fuel" heating will be accomplished with a pipe in
                          pipe
                          > system. There is a primary bag filter in the gloop tank which
                          already feeds
                          > the veg oil boiler.
                        • Tim
                          Hi Mark, There is no problem with a glow plug, I have several kicking around, It is just that I am reluctant to machine the COV plug that is fitted to my
                          Message 12 of 16 , Oct 7, 2006
                          View Source
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Mark,
                            There is no problem with a glow plug, I have several kicking around, It is just that I am reluctant to machine the COV plug that is fitted to my engine already in case I mess it up. I already rely on the machine to provide our power and to heat the fuel oil tank filter system for the veg fuel for the veg oil boilers. I am hoping that my local diesel engine spares crowd will be able to make me the custom high pressure fuel line that I need to make the ally block on the block idea work properly. I too was surprised that she would not start the first morning that I tried and failed. I would reckon that about 12-15 deg C is the bottom temp for cold starting these engines on veg without aid.

                            Tim

                            On 10/7/06, marksmbx <marksmbx@...> wrote:

                            Hi Tim,

                            I am surprised that at the relatively warm temps we still have, you
                            need heat to start the veg oil.

                            Didnt you have an old Zetor tractor there?....extract glow plug fella!

                            If you havent got one there, go to the scrappie and look for a diesel
                            engine and take one or two out. There is a threaded portion you will
                            have to grab hold of and a draw hammer works well for that. The type
                            of thing some panel beaters use to pull out stubborn dents. I do not
                            know if draw hammer is the correct name, it is what I always heard
                            them called.

                            When you get your alu block mounted, build a cardboard frame around
                            it and leave say a 1 inch gap all round, hold the cardboard together
                            with tape. Then get a can of expanding foam and start filling. Let it
                            all get hard and take of the cardboard. The added insulation will pay
                            dividens. Insulate the fuel lines and filter if you can with pipe
                            insualtion or fiberglass.

                            BTW I like gloopy word, very descriptive and easy to visualise. The
                            only gloop I had was waste engine oil, its a bugger to filter right.
                            I am curious how this will go this coming winter now that I have a CS
                            running again and indoors (workshop), such luxury. It is in there to
                            give me light while the landie is worked on over the winter and keep
                            my arse warm while cursing under the rover.



                            Mark

                            > Cold starting at the moment is still relatively easy, I am not
                            supplying the
                            > engine with hot oil until it warms up so it is cold starting on
                            cold veg. I
                            > am starting at the moment with a gas torch flame over the air
                            intake pipe, I
                            > simply remove the air cleaner, and hold the torch over the opening
                            as I
                            > crank her, use the bottle of the gas torch to knock out the
                            decompressor,
                            > and she starts as quick as you can get the torch back over the air
                            intake, a
                            > glow plug would be a lot less hassle, unfortunately I do not have a
                            spare
                            > COV plug to machine to take one, and I am unwilling to risk
                            machining the
                            > one I have and be left without heat and power in the event of a
                            mishap.
                            > Anybody out there with a COV plug to sell/donate?
                            >
                            > I also desperately want a couple of spare high pressure injector
                            lines for
                            > the veg conversion of the engine. The plan is to fit an aluminium
                            block
                            > sandwich (with the hp line in a groove in the centre) to the water
                            pump
                            > location in the engine head (the water pump has been removed), this
                            should
                            > heat the veg in the high pressure line nicely by conduction when
                            the engine
                            > is hot.
                            >
                            > For cold starting I will fit a glow plug to the COV plug and a VOW2
                            glow
                            > plug based fuel heater will be added (on top of the HP line
                            sandwich already
                            > bolted to the head would probably be best). The VOW 2 model that I
                            will use
                            > is the twin chamber model the VOW2 C I think (David says that he
                            will be
                            > providing VOW 2's with proper glow plug seats in the future), Both
                            glow
                            > plugs will only be energised for cold starting. The primary heated
                            chamber
                            > of the vow 2 will be plumbed in just before the ip, the secondary
                            chamber
                            > will be plumbed into the wick filter feed. With proper insulation
                            of the al
                            > block the heat from the engine head should keep everything tickety
                            boo
                            > whilst she is running.
                            >
                            > I plan on running a two tank fuel system on my engine, with a
                            startup tank
                            > (the original one) containing the very best quality clear waste veg
                            oil that
                            > I can get, and a run tank (which also feeds the veg oil boiler)
                            containing
                            > gloopy stuff and heated with the heat from either the engine or the
                            veg oil
                            > boiler (it's heating coil is in parallel with the coil in my hot
                            water
                            > cylinder). Fuel changeover is acomplished with a valve on both tank
                            feeds,
                            > and will use two fuel filters. The original wick filter is used for
                            startup
                            > fuel, and the run fuel will use a toyota/VW golf car fuel filter
                            (cheap
                            > elements) with a coolant powered heating coil around it in an
                            insulated box.
                            > The gloopy "run fuel" heating will be accomplished with a pipe in
                            pipe
                            > system. There is a primary bag filter in the gloop tank which
                            already feeds
                            > the veg oil boiler.




                            --
                            All the Best
                            Tim from Tang

                            It is never too late to have a happy childhood.
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