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Sanskrit origins of the names David and Goliath

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  • daviservant
    The late Graham Millar traced the myth of David and Goliath to the ancient myth of Indra killing the dragon Vrtra in India. He indicated that the myth is
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 17, 2006
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      The late Graham Millar traced the myth of David and Goliath to the
      ancient myth of Indra killing the dragon Vrtra in India. He indicated
      that the myth is represented in the constellations. David is
      represented by the constellation Bootes and Goliath is represented by
      the constellation Orion. Millar wrote that the names David and Goliath
      are of Sanskrit origin. Does anyone know what the Sanskrit origins of
      the names David and Goliath are?
      Keith Davis
    • Andis Kaulins
      ... Keith, The Wikipedia account of the Biblical tale suggests to us that the story of David and Goliath, if taken
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 23, 2006
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        --- In LexiLine@yahoogroups.com, "daviservant" <daviservant@...> wrote:
        >
        > The late Graham Millar traced the myth of David and Goliath to the
        > ancient myth of Indra killing the dragon Vrtra in India. He indicated
        > that the myth is represented in the constellations. David is
        > represented by the constellation Bootes and Goliath is represented by
        > the constellation Orion. Millar wrote that the names David and Goliath
        > are of Sanskrit origin. Does anyone know what the Sanskrit origins of
        > the names David and Goliath are?
        > Keith Davis

        Keith,

        The Wikipedia account  of the Biblical tale suggests to us that the "story" of David and Goliath, if taken literally as a historical reality, rather than to be viewed as the application of an older myth, is troublesome:

        "Textual conflicts

        David may not have been the one to kill Goliath. Elhanan, the son of Jaare-oregim the Bethlehemite, is given credit for killing Goliath in 2 Sam 21:19. The KJV adds the phrase "the brother of" before Goliath's name in order to avoid contradicting the story of David's victory.

        The KJV insertion is justified by the parallel account of Elhanan's deed at 1 Chron 20:5b, which states that "Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath." The word "Jair" here is "Jaare-oregim" at 2 Sam 21:19b; "oregim" is Hebrew for "weavers," which also appears at the end of both verses. Also, "Lahmi" (Hebrew "´eth-lach·mi´," where "´eth" simply means that Lahmi is the object of the verb "slew") in the former becomes "behth hal·lach·mi´" ("Bethlehemite") in the latter. Hence many scholars view 2 Sam 21:19b to be the result of two scribal errors, with 1 Chron 20:5b as the correct account.
        David about to cut the head off Goliath, by Michelangelo
        Enlarge
        David about to cut the head off Goliath, by Michelangelo

        However, other scholars argue that Elhanan may have been the victor over Goliath, but that David was later credited with the deed in order to enhance his reputation. It has been contended that, because of David's introduction to Saul in 1 Samuel 16:19-23, Saul should have known who David was in 1 Samuel 17:55-58 and would not need to ask whose son David is, especially since Jesse, David's father, is also mentioned in the earlier passage.

        One response to this is to argue that the earlier passage only implies that the servants of Saul knew that David was the son of Jesse. There is no reason to believe Saul had to have known that Jesse was David's father two years later in Chapter 17.

        Another problem is that David is said to have brought Goliath's head to Jerusalem (1 Sam 17:54), though Jerusalem belonged to the Jebusites at the time, which casts some doubt on this detail of the story.
        "

        "Jabar" ( is this the same origin as Jair, Jaare (?)) is an ancient name for Orion, so there might be some mythical astronomical connection, though I think that Millar's setting of David and Goliath as equivalent to Indra and Vrtra in Sanskrit would  be an error, since Vrtra, the dragon of heaven, never applies to the constellation Orion.

        The "Star of David" was of course the six-sided Hebrew star (hexagram) and could also well have a stellar origin in view of the Hebrew meaning of Mogen David (Star of David)  as the "Shield of David" but also as the "Seal of Solomon".

        The hexagram  as an important symbol in ancient days is in fact related to an ancient Hindic symbol and to ancient comology:

        "Six pointed stars have also been found in cosmological diagrams in Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism. The reasons behind this symbol's common appearance in Indic religions and the West are lost in the mists of antiquity. One possibility is that they have a common origin, or the other possibility is that artists and religious people from several cultures independently created the Star of David shape, which after all is a relatively simple and obvious geometric design.

        Within Indic lore, the shape is generally understood to consist of two triangles--one pointed up and the other down--locked in harmonious embrace. The two components are called 'Om' and the 'Hrim' in Sanskrit, and symbolize man's position between earth and sky. The downward triangle symbolizes Shakti, the sacred embodiment of femininity, and the upward triangle symbolizes Shiva, or Agni Tattva, representing the focused aspects of masculinity. The mystical union of the two triangles represents Creation, occuring through the divine union of male and female. The two locked triangles are also known as 'Shanmukha' - the six-faced, representing the six faces of Shiva & Shakti's progeny Kartikeya. This symbol is also a part of several yantras and has deep significance in Hindu ritual worship and mythology.

        In Buddhism, some old versions of the Bardo Thodol, also known as The Tibetan Book of the Dead, contain a hexagram with a Swastika inside. It was made up by the publishers for this particular publication. In Tibetan, it is called the 'origin of phenomenon' (chos-kyi 'byung-gnas). It is especially connected with the cult of Vajrayogini, and forms the center part of Her mandala. In reality, it is in three dimensions, not two, although it may be portrayed either way.

        In Nouga Kogen of Midland Japan, there rests an ancient idol monument (now enclosed in a preserving pyramid) on which there rests a stone that has on it a hexagram. Its roots trace back to the ancient, local Japanese belief that thousands of years ago, a "god" from the sky came to a temple in Nouga Kogen, the same temple from which the stone was found."

        In this manner, the story of David and Goliath, if it had any ancient mythological comparables in the stars, could be followed - but it would be quite a shot in the dark, and veritably impossible to prove. There is no doubt that many of our myths are rooted in celestial beliefs from prehistoric days, but tracing them back is a difficult task.

        Andis

      • William Glyn-Jones
        If we are looking for a very ancient Orion myth present in many cultures then we probably don t need to look much further than the hammer/mace/club brandishing
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 24, 2006
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          If we are looking for a very ancient Orion myth present in many cultures then we probably don't need to look much further than the hammer/mace/club brandishing dragon slaying giant/god figures who stand on mountains that are to be found in Hittite, Phoenician, Vedic, Egyption, and Nordic traditions. Whether Teshub, indra, or some Baal figure, they are invariably shown in the Orion pose, with the mace/hammer/club/smiting Pharoah (or egyptian hunter in the Field of Reeds) brandished up above the the head, the other hand often stretcvhed in fornt as a counterbalance, and often mid stride.
           
          Very old.


          Andis Kaulins <AKaulins@...> wrote:

          --- In LexiLine@yahoogroups.com, "daviservant" <daviservant@...> wrote:
          >
          > The late Graham Millar traced the myth of David and Goliath to the
          > ancient myth of Indra killing the dragon Vrtra in India. He indicated
          > that the myth is represented in the constellations. David is
          > represented by the constellation Bootes and Goliath is represented by
          > the constellation Orion. Millar wrote that the names David and Goliath
          > are of Sanskrit origin. Does anyone know what the Sanskrit origins of
          > the names David and Goliath are?
          > Keith Davis

          Keith,

          The Wikipedia account  of the Biblical tale suggests to us that the "story" of David and Goliath, if taken literally as a historical reality, rather than to be viewed as the application of an older myth, is troublesome:

          "Textual conflicts

          David may not have been the one to kill Goliath. Elhanan, the son of Jaare-oregim the Bethlehemite, is given credit for killing Goliath in 2 Sam 21:19. The KJV adds the phrase "the brother of" before Goliath's name in order to avoid contradicting the story of David's victory.

          The KJV insertion is justified by the parallel account of Elhanan's deed at 1 Chron 20:5b, which states that "Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath." The word "Jair" here is "Jaare-oregim" at 2 Sam 21:19b; "oregim" is Hebrew for "weavers," which also appears at the end of both verses. Also, "Lahmi" (Hebrew "´eth-lach·mi´," where "´eth" simply means that Lahmi is the object of the verb "slew") in the former becomes "behth hal·lach·mi´" ("Bethlehemite") in the latter. Hence many scholars view 2 Sam 21:19b to be the result of two scribal errors, with 1 Chron 20:5b as the correct account.
          David about to cut the head off Goliath, by Michelangelo
          Enlarge
          David about to cut the head off Goliath, by Michelangelo

          However, other scholars argue that Elhanan may have been the victor over Goliath, but that David was later credited with the deed in order to enhance his reputation. It has been contended that, because of David's introduction to Saul in 1 Samuel 16:19-23, Saul should have known who David was in 1 Samuel 17:55-58 and would not need to ask whose son David is, especially since Jesse, David's father, is also mentioned in the earlier passage.

          One response to this is to argue that the earlier passage only implies that the servants of Saul knew that David was the son of Jesse. There is no reason to believe Saul had to have known that Jesse was David's father two years later in Chapter 17.

          Another problem is that David is said to have brought Goliath's head to Jerusalem (1 Sam 17:54), though Jerusalem belonged to the Jebusites at the time, which casts some doubt on this detail of the story.
          "

          "Jabar" ( is this the same origin as Jair, Jaare (?)) is an ancient name for Orion, so there might be some mythical astronomical connection, though I think that Millar's setting of David and Goliath as equivalent to Indra and Vrtra in Sanskrit would  be an error, since Vrtra, the dragon of heaven, never applies to the constellation Orion.

          The "Star of David" was of course the six-sided Hebrew star (hexagram) and could also well have a stellar origin in view of the Hebrew meaning of Mogen David (Star of David)  as the "Shield of David" but also as the "Seal of Solomon".

          The hexagram  as an important symbol in ancient days is in fact related to an ancient Hindic symbol and to ancient comology:

          "Six pointed stars have also been found in cosmological diagrams in Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism. The reasons behind this symbol's common appearance in Indic religions and the West are lost in the mists of antiquity. One possibility is that they have a common origin, or the other possibility is that artists and religious people from several cultures independently created the Star of David shape, which after all is a relatively simple and obvious geometric design.
          Within Indic lore, the shape is generally understood to consist of two triangles--one pointed up and the other down--locked in harmonious embrace. The two components are called 'Om' and the 'Hrim' in Sanskrit, and symbolize man's position between earth and sky. The downward triangle symbolizes Shakti, the sacred embodiment of femininity, and the upward triangle symbolizes Shiva, or Agni Tattva, representing the focused aspects of masculinity. The mystical union of the two triangles represents Creation, occuring through the divine union of male and female. The two locked triangles are also known as 'Shanmukha' - the six-faced, representing the six faces of Shiva & Shakti's progeny Kartikeya. This symbol is also a part of several yantras and has deep significance in Hindu ritual worship and mythology.
          In Buddhism, some old versions of the Bardo Thodol, also known as The Tibetan Book of the Dead, contain a hexagram with a Swastika inside. It was made up by the publishers for this particular publication. In Tibetan, it is called the 'origin of phenomenon' (chos-kyi 'byung-gnas). It is especially connected with the cult of Vajrayogini, and forms the center part of Her mandala. In reality, it is in three dimensions, not two, although it may be portrayed either way.
          In Nouga Kogen of Midland Japan, there rests an ancient idol monument (now enclosed in a preserving pyramid) on which there rests a stone that has on it a hexagram. Its roots trace back to the ancient, local Japanese belief that thousands of years ago, a "god" from the sky came to a temple in Nouga Kogen, the same temple from which the stone was found."
          In this manner, the story of David and Goliath, if it had any ancient mythological comparables in the stars, could be followed - but it would be quite a shot in the dark, and veritably impossible to prove. There is no doubt that many of our myths are rooted in celestial beliefs from prehistoric days, but tracing them back is a difficult task.
          Andis


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        • Keith Davis
          Thank you Dr. Kaulins for that detailed information. I am conducting some more research into the origin of the names David and Goliath and should post the
          Message 4 of 5 , Jul 26, 2006
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            Thank you Dr. Kaulins for that detailed information. I am conducting some more research into the origin of the names David and Goliath and should post the message on LexiLine some time this summer. I noticed that one Lexiline posted a message stating that the name Saul derives from the Latvian word for sun.
            Regards,
            Keith

            Andis Kaulins <AKaulins@...> wrote:

            --- In LexiLine@yahoogroups.com, "daviservant" <daviservant@...> wrote:
            >
            > The late Graham Millar traced the myth of David and Goliath to the
            > ancient myth of Indra killing the dragon Vrtra in India. He indicated
            > that the myth is represented in the constellations. David is
            > represented by the constellation Bootes and Goliath is represented by
            > the constellation Orion. Millar wrote that the names David and Goliath
            > are of Sanskrit origin. Does anyone know what the Sanskrit origins of
            > the names David and Goliath are?
            > Keith Davis

            Keith,

            The Wikipedia account  of the Biblical tale suggests to us that the "story" of David and Goliath, if taken literally as a historical reality, rather than to be viewed as the application of an older myth, is troublesome:

            "Textual conflicts

            David may not have been the one to kill Goliath. Elhanan, the son of Jaare-oregim the Bethlehemite, is given credit for killing Goliath in 2 Sam 21:19. The KJV adds the phrase "the brother of" before Goliath's name in order to avoid contradicting the story of David's victory.

            The KJV insertion is justified by the parallel account of Elhanan's deed at 1 Chron 20:5b, which states that "Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath." The word "Jair" here is "Jaare-oregim" at 2 Sam 21:19b; "oregim" is Hebrew for "weavers," which also appears at the end of both verses. Also, "Lahmi" (Hebrew "´eth-lach·mi´," where "´eth" simply means that Lahmi is the object of the verb "slew") in the former becomes "behth hal·lach·mi´" ("Bethlehemite") in the latter. Hence many scholars view 2 Sam 21:19b to be the result of two scribal errors, with 1 Chron 20:5b as the correct account.
            David about to cut the head off Goliath, by Michelangelo
            Enlarge
            David about to cut the head off Goliath, by Michelangelo

            However, other scholars argue that Elhanan may have been the victor over Goliath, but that David was later credited with the deed in order to enhance his reputation. It has been contended that, because of David's introduction to Saul in 1 Samuel 16:19-23, Saul should have known who David was in 1 Samuel 17:55-58 and would not need to ask whose son David is, especially since Jesse, David's father, is also mentioned in the earlier passage.

            One response to this is to argue that the earlier passage only implies that the servants of Saul knew that David was the son of Jesse. There is no reason to believe Saul had to have known that Jesse was David's father two years later in Chapter 17.

            Another problem is that David is said to have brought Goliath's head to Jerusalem (1 Sam 17:54), though Jerusalem belonged to the Jebusites at the time, which casts some doubt on this detail of the story.
            "

            "Jabar" ( is this the same origin as Jair, Jaare (?)) is an ancient name for Orion, so there might be some mythical astronomical connection, though I think that Millar's setting of David and Goliath as equivalent to Indra and Vrtra in Sanskrit would  be an error, since Vrtra, the dragon of heaven, never applies to the constellation Orion.

            The "Star of David" was of course the six-sided Hebrew star (hexagram) and could also well have a stellar origin in view of the Hebrew meaning of Mogen David (Star of David)  as the "Shield of David" but also as the "Seal of Solomon".

            The hexagram  as an important symbol in ancient days is in fact related to an ancient Hindic symbol and to ancient comology:

            "Six pointed stars have also been found in cosmological diagrams in Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism. The reasons behind this symbol's common appearance in Indic religions and the West are lost in the mists of antiquity. One possibility is that they have a common origin, or the other possibility is that artists and religious people from several cultures independently created the Star of David shape, which after all is a relatively simple and obvious geometric design.
            Within Indic lore, the shape is generally understood to consist of two triangles--one pointed up and the other down--locked in harmonious embrace. The two components are called 'Om' and the 'Hrim' in Sanskrit, and symbolize man's position between earth and sky. The downward triangle symbolizes Shakti, the sacred embodiment of femininity, and the upward triangle symbolizes Shiva, or Agni Tattva, representing the focused aspects of masculinity. The mystical union of the two triangles represents Creation, occuring through the divine union of male and female. The two locked triangles are also known as 'Shanmukha' - the six-faced, representing the six faces of Shiva & Shakti's progeny Kartikeya. This symbol is also a part of several yantras and has deep significance in Hindu ritual worship and mythology.
            In Buddhism, some old versions of the Bardo Thodol, also known as The Tibetan Book of the Dead, contain a hexagram with a Swastika inside. It was made up by the publishers for this particular publication. In Tibetan, it is called the 'origin of phenomenon' (chos-kyi 'byung-gnas). It is especially connected with the cult of Vajrayogini, and forms the center part of Her mandala. In reality, it is in three dimensions, not two, although it may be portrayed either way.
            In Nouga Kogen of Midland Japan, there rests an ancient idol monument (now enclosed in a preserving pyramid) on which there rests a stone that has on it a hexagram. Its roots trace back to the ancient, local Japanese belief that thousands of years ago, a "god" from the sky came to a temple in Nouga Kogen, the same temple from which the stone was found."
            In this manner, the story of David and Goliath, if it had any ancient mythological comparables in the stars, could be followed - but it would be quite a shot in the dark, and veritably impossible to prove. There is no doubt that many of our myths are rooted in celestial beliefs from prehistoric days, but tracing them back is a difficult task.
            Andis


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          • Keith Davis
            Thanks for the interesting information. William Glyn-Jones wrote: If we are looking for a very ancient Orion myth present in many
            Message 5 of 5 , Jul 31, 2006
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              Thanks for the interesting information.

              William Glyn-Jones <wibliom@...> wrote:
              If we are looking for a very ancient Orion myth present in many cultures then we probably don't need to look much further than the hammer/mace/ club brandishing dragon slaying giant/god figures who stand on mountains that are to be found in Hittite, Phoenician, Vedic, Egyption, and Nordic traditions. Whether Teshub, indra, or some Baal figure, they are invariably shown in the Orion pose, with the mace/hammer/ club/smiting Pharoah (or egyptian hunter in the Field of Reeds) brandished up above the the head, the other hand often stretcvhed in fornt as a counterbalance, and often mid stride.
               
              Very old.


              Andis Kaulins <AKaulins@aol. com> wrote:

              --- In LexiLine@yahoogroup s.com, "daviservant" <daviservant@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > The late Graham Millar traced the myth of David and Goliath to the
              > ancient myth of Indra killing the dragon Vrtra in India. He indicated
              > that the myth is represented in the constellations. David is
              > represented by the constellation Bootes and Goliath is represented by
              > the constellation Orion. Millar wrote that the names David and Goliath
              > are of Sanskrit origin. Does anyone know what the Sanskrit origins of
              > the names David and Goliath are?
              > Keith Davis

              Keith,

              The Wikipedia account  of the Biblical tale suggests to us that the "story" of David and Goliath, if taken literally as a historical reality, rather than to be viewed as the application of an older myth, is troublesome:

              "Textual conflicts

              David may not have been the one to kill Goliath. Elhanan, the son of Jaare-oregim the Bethlehemite, is given credit for killing Goliath in 2 Sam 21:19. The KJV adds the phrase "the brother of" before Goliath's name in order to avoid contradicting the story of David's victory.

              The KJV insertion is justified by the parallel account of Elhanan's deed at 1 Chron 20:5b, which states that "Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath." The word "Jair" here is "Jaare-oregim" at 2 Sam 21:19b; "oregim" is Hebrew for "weavers," which also appears at the end of both verses. Also, "Lahmi" (Hebrew "´eth-lach·mi´, " where "´eth" simply means that Lahmi is the object of the verb "slew") in the former becomes "behth hal·lach·mi´" ("Bethlehemite" ) in the latter. Hence many scholars view 2 Sam 21:19b to be the result of two scribal errors, with 1 Chron 20:5b as the correct account.
              David about to cut the head off Goliath, by Michelangelo
              Enlarge
              David about to cut the head off Goliath, by Michelangelo

              However, other scholars argue that Elhanan may have been the victor over Goliath, but that David was later credited with the deed in order to enhance his reputation. It has been contended that, because of David's introduction to Saul in 1 Samuel 16:19-23, Saul should have known who David was in 1 Samuel 17:55-58 and would not need to ask whose son David is, especially since Jesse, David's father, is also mentioned in the earlier passage.

              One response to this is to argue that the earlier passage only implies that the servants of Saul knew that David was the son of Jesse. There is no reason to believe Saul had to have known that Jesse was David's father two years later in Chapter 17.

              Another problem is that David is said to have brought Goliath's head to Jerusalem (1 Sam 17:54), though Jerusalem belonged to the Jebusites at the time, which casts some doubt on this detail of the story.
              "

              "Jabar" ( is this the same origin as Jair, Jaare (?)) is an ancient name for Orion, so there might be some mythical astronomical connection, though I think that Millar's setting of David and Goliath as equivalent to Indra and Vrtra in Sanskrit would  be an error, since Vrtra, the dragon of heaven, never applies to the constellation Orion.

              The "Star of David" was of course the six-sided Hebrew star (hexagram) and could also well have a stellar origin in view of the Hebrew meaning of Mogen David (Star of David)  as the "Shield of David" but also as the "Seal of Solomon".

              The hexagram  as an important symbol in ancient days is in fact related to an ancient Hindic symbol and to ancient comology:

              "Six pointed stars have also been found in cosmological diagrams in Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism. The reasons behind this symbol's common appearance in Indic religions and the West are lost in the mists of antiquity. One possibility is that they have a common origin, or the other possibility is that artists and religious people from several cultures independently created the Star of David shape, which after all is a relatively simple and obvious geometric design.
              Within Indic lore, the shape is generally understood to consist of two triangles--one pointed up and the other down--locked in harmonious embrace. The two components are called 'Om' and the 'Hrim' in Sanskrit, and symbolize man's position between earth and sky. The downward triangle symbolizes Shakti, the sacred embodiment of femininity, and the upward triangle symbolizes Shiva, or Agni Tattva, representing the focused aspects of masculinity. The mystical union of the two triangles represents Creation, occuring through the divine union of male and female. The two locked triangles are also known as 'Shanmukha' - the six-faced, representing the six faces of Shiva & Shakti's progeny Kartikeya. This symbol is also a part of several yantras and has deep significance in Hindu ritual worship and mythology.
              In Buddhism, some old versions of the Bardo Thodol, also known as The Tibetan Book of the Dead, contain a hexagram with a Swastika inside. It was made up by the publishers for this particular publication. In Tibetan, it is called the 'origin of phenomenon' (chos-kyi 'byung-gnas) . It is especially connected with the cult of Vajrayogini, and forms the center part of Her mandala. In reality, it is in three dimensions, not two, although it may be portrayed either way.
              In Nouga Kogen of Midland Japan, there rests an ancient idol monument (now enclosed in a preserving pyramid) on which there rests a stone that has on it a hexagram. Its roots trace back to the ancient, local Japanese belief that thousands of years ago, a "god" from the sky came to a temple in Nouga Kogen, the same temple from which the stone was found."
              In this manner, the story of David and Goliath, if it had any ancient mythological comparables in the stars, could be followed - but it would be quite a shot in the dark, and veritably impossible to prove. There is no doubt that many of our myths are rooted in celestial beliefs from prehistoric days, but tracing them back is a difficult task.
              Andis


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