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Re: [LeftLibertarian2] Re: Libertarian Politicians Aren't

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  • Anthony Gregory
    Limbaugh is horrible on 85% of the issues, but Hannity is even more of a partisan shill with no thoughts of his own.
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 1, 2011
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      Limbaugh is horrible on 85% of the issues, but Hannity is even more of a partisan shill with no thoughts of his own.

      On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 4:35 PM, <jeo1@...> wrote:
       

      Levin's a jerk, no question.

      It seems to me Hannity is more tolerant of libertarians than Limbaugh is. Issue wise, there is no daylight between Hannity and Limbaugh.

      Levin despises libertarians and Ron and Rand Paul. Levin is more critical of Republicans as a whole, from the right, than are Limbaugh and Hannity.


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Anthony Gregory" <anthony.gregory@...>
      To: LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2011 6:30:15 PM
      Subject: Re: [LeftLibertarian2] Re: Libertarian Politicians Aren't

       

      This whole controversy began because of what he said on Hannity's show -- that going to a radical Muslim's speech is actionable.

      I prefer Limbaugh to Hannity, hands down. I hate them both, but Hannity is much worse. Mark Levin might be my least favorite these days.

      On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 4:27 PM, < jeo1@... > wrote:

       

      I haven't heard him on Hannity. Hopefully Rand doesn't back down on his views, he didn't on Letterman or John Stewart.

      I don't mind him interviewing with Hannity, do you? And being civil, is that "sucking up"? They have to play the media game of course.

      I'm no fan of Hannity, but when he interviews Ron Paul, he is usually respectful even when disagreeing.

      I find Hannity a bit less obnoxious than Limbaugh or Mark Levin.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Anthony Gregory" < anthony.gregory@... >
      To: LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com

      Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2011 6:17:19 PM
      Subject: Re: [LeftLibertarian2] Re: Libertarian Politicians Aren't

       

      I thought his Patriot Act efforts were heroic, but his comments do have an effect, and he was very statist in his campaign. I still have an open mind on him, but every time he sucks up to a loathsome character like Hannity in this manner should count against him.

      On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 4:09 PM, < jeo1@... > wrote:

       

      This was a dumb comment, I agree, but what has Rand been "horrific" on?

      Given that he is actually in the Senate and not just sounding off among libertarians?

      In my view, we libertarians should support, or at least not oppose, those in the political arena sympathetic to our views, even if they are not perfect. There are only a few libertarian leaning politicians, they need all the help they can get.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Anthony Gregory" < anthony.gregory@... >
      To: LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2011 5:55:53 PM
      Subject: Re: [LeftLibertarian2] Re: Libertarian Politicians Aren't

       

      As a libertarian, I am very critical of Rand, who is sometimes regarded as one of us. And I hold him to a high standard, even though he's a Senator. This statement of his was disgusting and totalitarian.

      But I agree with Jesse. I don't think blue-state fascists have much standing in calling out Rand. As horrific as he can be, most liberal Democrats are even worse, including on civil liberties.

      On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Jesse Walker < jwalkernot@... > wrote:

       

      > Here is a link for the audio:
      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVXWS8g4TAM
      >
      > Perhaps Rand Paul needs to reread the constitution and reflect seriously
      > on the First Amendment.

      Paul put his own foot in his mouth here, but Krugman's post is idiotic;
      "the freedom to not pay taxes and discriminate based on race" neatly
      excludes the freedoms oppressed by the PATRIOT Act that Krugman's Blue
      Team buddies just rammed through. (Which is, I suppose, why the Dem
      propagandists at ThinkProgress are broadcasting this soundbite far &
      wide. Better to take the heat off the likes of Harry Reid & Diane
      Feinstein.)


    • Nathan Byrd
      A bunch of non-libertarians using another non-libertarian for cover. When you say that he put his foot in his mouth, do you mean that in the sense that he
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 1, 2011
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        A bunch of non-libertarians using another non-libertarian for cover. When you say that he put his foot in his mouth, do you mean that in the sense that he inadvertently expressed his true thoughts (the ultimate faux pas for politicians), or do you mean that he didn't really mean what it sounds like he said?

        Nathan

        --- In LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com, Jesse Walker <jwalkernot@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > > Here is a link for the audio:
        > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVXWS8g4TAM
        > >
        > > Perhaps Rand Paul needs to reread the constitution and reflect seriously
        > > on the First Amendment.
        >
        > Paul put his own foot in his mouth here, but Krugman's post is idiotic;
        > "the freedom to not pay taxes and discriminate based on race" neatly
        > excludes the freedoms oppressed by the PATRIOT Act that Krugman's Blue
        > Team buddies just rammed through. (Which is, I suppose, why the Dem
        > propagandists at ThinkProgress are broadcasting this soundbite far &
        > wide. Better to take the heat off the likes of Harry Reid & Diane
        > Feinstein.)
        >
      • MikeHolmesTX@cs.com
        In a message dated 6/1/2011 4:59:12 PM Central Daylight Time, ... While Krugman is the last person qualified to judge who is or isn t libertarian, this Rand
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 1, 2011
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          In a message dated 6/1/2011 4:59:12 PM Central Daylight Time,
          free.market.anticapitalist@... writes:


          >
          >
          >
          > <A
          > HREF="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/01/libertarian-politicians-arent/">Libertarian Politicians Aren't</A>
          >
          >
          > via <A HREF="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/">Paul Krugman</A> by By
          > PAUL KRUGMAN on 6/1/11
          >
          >
          >

          While Krugman is the last person qualified to judge who is or isn't
          libertarian, this Rand Paul quote, if accurate, is a travesty.

          Rand is a much inferior version of his Dad. This comment reflects a poor
          grasp of the fundamentals of liberty.

          That noted, Rand was recently quite vocal in opposing the renewal of the
          Patriot Act in the Senate. Even that act doesn't yet criminalize listening to
          speeches.

          One hopes he will learn from his mistakes and improve.

          MH

          </HTML>
        • Jesse Walker
          ... I mean that Paul s to blame for what he said, regardless of how it s used by the likes of Think Progress. One of my colleagues is trying to get a comment
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 1, 2011
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            On 6/1/11 8:59 PM, Nathan Byrd wrote:

            > When you say that he put his foot in his mouth, do you mean that in the sense that he inadvertently expressed his true thoughts (the ultimate faux pas for politicians), or do you mean that he didn't really mean what it sounds like he said?

            I mean that Paul's to blame for what he said, regardless of how it's
            used by the likes of Think Progress.

            One of my colleagues is trying to get a comment from the senator; we'll
            find out soon enough if he's standing by the quote or if he'll claim his
            thought got garbled on the way out of his mouth.
          • Nathan Byrd
            Thanks, I m glad to hear someone is pressing him on it. I ve never considered Rand to be a libertarian, so I don t necessarily find it at all confusing or
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 1, 2011
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              Thanks, I'm glad to hear someone is pressing him on it.
              I've never considered Rand to be a libertarian, so I don't necessarily find it at all confusing or alarming (other than the normal alarm when politicians say terrible things). He always came across as a conservative who had a few libertarian concerns tucked away, but nothing really core about it.

              Nathan

              --- In LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com, Jesse Walker <jwalkernot@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > On 6/1/11 8:59 PM, Nathan Byrd wrote:
              >
              > > When you say that he put his foot in his mouth, do you mean that in the sense that he inadvertently expressed his true thoughts (the ultimate faux pas for politicians), or do you mean that he didn't really mean what it sounds like he said?
              >
              > I mean that Paul's to blame for what he said, regardless of how it's
              > used by the likes of Think Progress.
              >
              > One of my colleagues is trying to get a comment from the senator; we'll
              > find out soon enough if he's standing by the quote or if he'll claim his
              > thought got garbled on the way out of his mouth.
              >
            • jeo1@frontier.com
              This comment aside, I think he is more libertarian than anyone else in the Senate. Admittedly that s not saying much, but it s something. ... From: Nathan
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 1, 2011
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                This comment aside, I think he is more "libertarian" than anyone else in the Senate. Admittedly that's not saying much, but it's something.



                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Nathan Byrd" <nfactor13@...>
                To: LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2011 8:52:16 PM
                Subject: [LeftLibertarian2] Re: Libertarian Politicians Aren't

                 




                Thanks, I'm glad to hear someone is pressing him on it.
                I've never considered Rand to be a libertarian, so I don't necessarily find it at all confusing or alarming (other than the normal alarm when politicians say terrible things). He always came across as a conservative who had a few libertarian concerns tucked away, but nothing really core about it.

                Nathan

                --- In LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com , Jesse Walker <jwalkernot@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > On 6/1/11 8:59 PM, Nathan Byrd wrote:
                >
                > > When you say that he put his foot in his mouth, do you mean that in the sense that he inadvertently expressed his true thoughts (the ultimate faux pas for politicians), or do you mean that he didn't really mean what it sounds like he said?
                >
                > I mean that Paul's to blame for what he said, regardless of how it's
                > used by the likes of Think Progress.
                >
                > One of my colleagues is trying to get a comment from the senator; we'll
                > find out soon enough if he's standing by the quote or if he'll claim his
                > thought got garbled on the way out of his mouth.
                >
              • jeo1@frontier.com
                I mean, he is not as pure libertarian as the driven snow, as all of us here are of course. Of course it doesn t take much guts to be libertarian here. And we
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 1, 2011
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                  I mean, he is not as pure libertarian as the driven snow, as all of us here are of course. Of course it doesn't take much guts to be libertarian here.

                  And we would never have on this list, for example, members making non libertarian statements, like repeatedly and adamantly defending and endorsing gov't police, would we?

                  No, we are all pure, 100% libertarian, no doubt about it.









                  From: "Nathan Byrd" <nfactor13@...>
                  To: LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2011 8:52:16 PM
                  Subject: [LeftLibertarian2] Re: Libertarian Politicians Aren't

                   




                  Thanks, I'm glad to hear someone is pressing him on it.
                  I've never considered Rand to be a libertarian, so I don't necessarily find it at all confusing or alarming (other than the normal alarm when politicians say terrible things). He always came across as a conservative who had a few libertarian concerns tucked away, but nothing really core about it.

                  Nathan

                  --- In LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com , Jesse Walker <jwalkernot@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On 6/1/11 8:59 PM, Nathan Byrd wrote:
                  >
                  > > When you say that he put his foot in his mouth, do you mean that in the sense that he inadvertently expressed his true thoughts (the ultimate faux pas for politicians), or do you mean that he didn't really mean what it sounds like he said?
                  >
                  > I mean that Paul's to blame for what he said, regardless of how it's
                  > used by the likes of Think Progress.
                  >
                  > One of my colleagues is trying to get a comment from the senator; we'll
                  > find out soon enough if he's standing by the quote or if he'll claim his
                  > thought got garbled on the way out of his mouth.
                  >
                • Nathan Byrd
                  Of course, we, the Elucidated Brethren of libertarianism know all about such things. :-) But really, I think it s usually more important why a person holds
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 1, 2011
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                    Of course, we, the Elucidated Brethren of libertarianism know all about such things. :-)

                    But really, I think it's usually more important why a person holds the views that they do than what the actual views are (to a point). And with Rand and many other conservatives who seem libertarian-friendly, it really comes down to the fact that they're conservatives who occasionally agree with libertarian ideas, but generally only to the point that they're not disruptive of other values they hold more dearly. So it's all right to oppose the Civil Rights act because property rights are very important, but if someone uses their freedom (of speech, for example) in a way that seems threatening, then it's not ok. Racism is bad, but not 'threatening' (in Rand's view), and so it doesn't deserve correction. Free speech is generally all right, too, but once it becomes a source of disorder, it's no longer a right. It's law and order, where order has priority and the law does what it needs to do to ensure order.

                    Nathan

                    --- In LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com, jeo1@... wrote:
                    >
                    > I mean, he is not as pure libertarian as the driven snow, as all of us here are of course. Of course it doesn't take much guts to be libertarian here.
                    >
                    > And we would never have on this list, for example, members making non libertarian statements, like repeatedly and adamantly defending and endorsing gov't police, would we?
                    >
                    > No, we are all pure, 100% libertarian, no doubt about it.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > From: "Nathan Byrd" <nfactor13@...>
                    > To: LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2011 8:52:16 PM
                    > Subject: [LeftLibertarian2] Re: Libertarian Politicians Aren't
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Thanks, I'm glad to hear someone is pressing him on it.
                    > I've never considered Rand to be a libertarian, so I don't necessarily find it at all confusing or alarming (other than the normal alarm when politicians say terrible things). He always came across as a conservative who had a few libertarian concerns tucked away, but nothing really core about it.
                    >
                    > Nathan
                    >
                    > --- In LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com , Jesse Walker <jwalkernot@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > On 6/1/11 8:59 PM, Nathan Byrd wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > When you say that he put his foot in his mouth, do you mean that in the sense that he inadvertently expressed his true thoughts (the ultimate faux pas for politicians), or do you mean that he didn't really mean what it sounds like he said?
                    > >
                    > > I mean that Paul's to blame for what he said, regardless of how it's
                    > > used by the likes of Think Progress.
                    > >
                    > > One of my colleagues is trying to get a comment from the senator; we'll
                    > > find out soon enough if he's standing by the quote or if he'll claim his
                    > > thought got garbled on the way out of his mouth.
                    > >
                    >
                  • Dan
                    I do not think of Rand Paul as a libertarian. Regards, Dan ________________________________ From: Anthony Gregory To:
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 7, 2011
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                      I do not think of Rand Paul as a libertarian.

                      Regards,

                      Dan

                      From: Anthony Gregory <anthony.gregory@...>
                      To: LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2011 6:55 PM
                      Subject: Re: [LeftLibertarian2] Re: Libertarian Politicians Aren't

                       
                      As a libertarian, I am very critical of Rand, who is sometimes regarded as one of us. And I hold him to a high standard, even though he's a Senator. This statement of his was disgusting and totalitarian.

                      But I agree with Jesse. I don't think blue-state fascists have much standing in calling out Rand. As horrific as he can be, most liberal Democrats are even worse, including on civil liberties.

                      On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Jesse Walker <jwalkernot@...> wrote:
                       

                      > Here is a link for the audio:
                      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVXWS8g4TAM
                      >
                      > Perhaps Rand Paul needs to reread the constitution and reflect seriously
                      > on the First Amendment.

                      Paul put his own foot in his mouth here, but Krugman's post is idiotic;
                      "the freedom to not pay taxes and discriminate based on race" neatly
                      excludes the freedoms oppressed by the PATRIOT Act that Krugman's Blue
                      Team buddies just rammed through. (Which is, I suppose, why the Dem
                      propagandists at ThinkProgress are broadcasting this soundbite far &
                      wide. Better to take the heat off the likes of Harry Reid & Diane
                      Feinstein.)



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