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A year of (Proudhon's) "Justice"

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  • shawn wilbur
    My main 2009 project is a translation of the first four volumes of Proudhon s Justice in the Revolution and in the Church. I ll try to post a new section
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 1, 2009
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      My main 2009 project is a translation of the first four volumes of Proudhon's "Justice in the Revolution and in the Church." I'll try to post a new section every day or two on my blog. This will be a pretty painless way to get through Proudhon's real masterwork, a few pages per day. The first two sections are already posted:

      http://libertarian-labyrinth.blogspot.com/2008/12/kicking-off-year-of-justice.html

      http://libertarian-labyrinth.blogspot.com/2009/01/justice-definition-of-philosophy.html

      The in-progress translation of Proudhon's "Philosophy of Progress" will be complete very soon as well. Enjoy!

      -shawn
    • Jesse Walker
      ... It s the same smug tone you hear from people who just CAN T CONCEIVE of why anyone would be opposed to dropping nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki --
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 1, 2009
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        Kevin Carson wrote:

        > I confess I came pretty close to putting my own comment in "fuck off"
        > terms. It gets a bit old, seeing the same half-assed and poorly
        > thought out arguments against anarchism that I've seen a thousand
        > times before, trotted out by people who think they're clever for
        > having just invented them. "With no government, you can't stop
        > lynchings." Or even worse, "what about Somalia (snicker)?" Yeah, I
        > only read that one on Daily Kos about a billion years ago.

        It's the same smug tone you hear from people who just CAN'T CONCEIVE of
        why anyone would be opposed to dropping nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and
        Nagasaki -- after all, that flies in the face of everything they
        remember from 10th grade social studies...

        But for most folks out there, anarchism is a very counterintuitive idea;
        they probably haven't heard the arguments you've had to offer a thousand
        times already. One of the people in the H&R thread sounds like he'd like
        to be an anarchist if he could be persuaded that it works. So persuade
        away, I say.
      • Dan Clore
        ... Doing my regular searches on Google News for stories about anarchists and anarchism, I ve lately found the following a bunch of times:
        Message 3 of 20 , Jan 2, 2009
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          Kevin Carson wrote:
          > --- In LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com, Jesse Walker <jwalkernot@...> wrote:
          >
          > > I meant it could use more participation *to make those anarchist
          > > arguments*, not *to allude to them while saying fuck off*. Though one
          > > comment in particular did have me ready myself to use a phrase
          > like
          > > "what they apparently think are informed arguments against something
          > > they obviously don't understand."
          >
          > I confess I came pretty close to putting my own comment in "fuck off"
          > terms. It gets a bit old, seeing the same half-assed and poorly
          > thought out arguments against anarchism that I've seen a thousand
          > times before, trotted out by people who think they're clever for
          > having just invented them. "With no government, you can't stop
          > lynchings." Or even worse, "what about Somalia (snicker)?" Yeah, I
          > only read that one on Daily Kos about a billion years ago.

          Doing my regular searches on Google News for stories about anarchists
          and anarchism, I've lately found the following a bunch of times:

          http://www.saylac.com/news/newsdec,25,08.htm
          Mark Bowden: In Somalia, guns of anarchy still reign
          Wednesday, Dec. 25, 2008

          In 1999, when I was touring the United States to promote my book "Black
          Hawk Down," the story of an ill-fated U.S. raid against a rebel warlord
          in the Somali capital of Mogadishu, I was often invited to college
          campuses, where I was fond of asking audiences whether there were any
          anarchists among them. Occasionally a scruffy student or two would raise
          a hand.

          "Good news," I'd tell them. "You don't have to wait. Go to Somalia.
          Check it out."

          *****

          At which point I picture the anarchists switching to a one-figure salute--

          (He even highlights his idiocy by using the term "warlord" right before.)

          --
          Dan Clore

          My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
          http://tinyurl.com/2gcoqt
          Lord We├┐rdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
          http://tinyurl.com/292yz9
          News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo

          Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
          immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
          -- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"
        • Dan Clore
          ... Try as they might, they ll never beat Aleister Crowley, who prefaced his translation of the Tao Te Ching thusly: If any Sinologist objects to anything in
          Message 4 of 20 , Jan 2, 2009
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            Scott Bieser wrote:
            > Kevin Carson wrote:
            >> --- In LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com, Jesse Walker
            >> <jwalkernot@...> wrote:

            > I'm all for division of labor. Let those who can say "fuck off" in an
            > erudite and entertaining way have at it,

            Try as they might, they'll never beat Aleister Crowley, who prefaced his
            translation of the Tao Te Ching thusly: "If any Sinologist objects to
            anything in this translation, let him go absorb his Yang in his own Yin,
            as the Americans say, and give me credit for an original Masterpiece.
            Whatever Lao-tzu said or meant, this is what I say and mean." (Okay,
            that would be "go fuck himself" instead of "fuck off", but still--)

            --
            Dan Clore

            My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
            http://tinyurl.com/2gcoqt
            Lord We├┐rdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
            http://tinyurl.com/292yz9
            News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo

            Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
            immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
            -- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"
          • terry12622000
            Could be partly because most anarchist define their terms so poorly. I mean calling themselves anarchist makes no sense from a promotial standpoint. I mean
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 1, 2009
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              Could be partly because most anarchist define their terms so
              poorly.
              I mean calling themselves anarchist makes no sense from a
              promotial standpoint. I mean face it anarchy even for anarchist
              doesn't have mass appeal.--- In LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com,
              Jesse Walker <jwalkernot@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Kevin Carson wrote:
              >
              > > I confess I came pretty close to putting my own comment in "fuck
              off"
              > > terms. It gets a bit old, seeing the same half-assed and poorly
              > > thought out arguments against anarchism that I've seen a thousand
              > > times before, trotted out by people who think they're clever for
              > > having just invented them. "With no government, you can't stop
              > > lynchings." Or even worse, "what about Somalia (snicker)?"
              Yeah, I
              > > only read that one on Daily Kos about a billion years ago.
              >
              > It's the same smug tone you hear from people who just CAN'T
              CONCEIVE of
              > why anyone would be opposed to dropping nuclear bombs on Hiroshima
              and
              > Nagasaki -- after all, that flies in the face of everything they
              > remember from 10th grade social studies...
              >
              > But for most folks out there, anarchism is a very counterintuitive
              idea;
              > they probably haven't heard the arguments you've had to offer a
              thousand
              > times already. One of the people in the H&R thread sounds like he'd
              like
              > to be an anarchist if he could be persuaded that it works. So
              persuade
              > away, I say.
              >
            • Scott Bieser
              Have you actually READ any serious anarchist literature? ... -- -- Scott Bieser Illustrator, Cartoonist, Designer View my on-line graphic novel _ODYSSEUS THE
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 1, 2009
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                Have you actually READ any serious anarchist literature?


                terry12622000 wrote:
                > Could be partly because most anarchist define their terms so
                > poorly.
                > I mean calling themselves anarchist makes no sense from a
                > promotial standpoint. I mean face it anarchy even for anarchist
                > doesn't have mass appeal.--- In LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com,
                > Jesse Walker <jwalkernot@...> wrote:
                >>
                >>
                >> Kevin Carson wrote:
                >>
                >>> I confess I came pretty close to putting my own comment in "fuck
                > off"
                >>> terms. It gets a bit old, seeing the same half-assed and poorly
                >>> thought out arguments against anarchism that I've seen a thousand
                >>> times before, trotted out by people who think they're clever for
                >>> having just invented them. "With no government, you can't stop
                >>> lynchings." Or even worse, "what about Somalia (snicker)?"
                > Yeah, I
                >>> only read that one on Daily Kos about a billion years ago.
                >> It's the same smug tone you hear from people who just CAN'T
                > CONCEIVE of
                >> why anyone would be opposed to dropping nuclear bombs on Hiroshima
                > and
                >> Nagasaki -- after all, that flies in the face of everything they
                >> remember from 10th grade social studies...
                >>
                >> But for most folks out there, anarchism is a very counterintuitive
                > idea;
                >> they probably haven't heard the arguments you've had to offer a
                > thousand
                >> times already. One of the people in the H&R thread sounds like he'd
                > like
                >> to be an anarchist if he could be persuaded that it works. So
                > persuade
                >> away, I say.
                >>
                >

                --
                -- Scott Bieser
                Illustrator, Cartoonist, Designer
                View my on-line graphic novel _ODYSSEUS THE REBEL_ at
                http://www.bigheadpress.com/otr
              • Dan Ust
                ... Name names. Which anarchists have you read who are so poor at defining terms? Rothbard? George H. Smith? Anyone on this list? Care to share any
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 1, 2009
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                  --- On Sun, 2/1/09, terry12622000 <cottondrop@...> wrote:
                  > Could be partly because most anarchist define their terms
                  > so poorly.

                  Name names. Which anarchists have you read who are so poor at defining terms? Rothbard? George H. Smith? Anyone on this list?

                  Care to share any specific anarchist tracts you've read where this was the case?

                  > I mean calling themselves anarchist makes no sense
                  > from a
                  > promotial standpoint. I mean face it anarchy even for
                  > anarchist doesn't have mass appeal.

                  Well, this has been discussed here before. Other terms are in use -- voluntary society, natural order, polycentric legal order, stateless society, etc. None of these has taken off, but I've found when I use a different term, the smarter people eventually figure out, "Hey, you mean anarchy!" So it might be better to focus promotional activities on educating people on just what anarchy means -- in this context, viz., that it's not a synonym for chaos or civil war -- rather than trying to fool people with a sexy term. Terms like Minarchism, limited government, and the nightwatchman state also have promotional problems. I don't see minarchists focusing on that problem.

                  Regards,

                  Dan
                • Dan Ust
                  ... My experience has been that most minarchists and statists have not read serious anarchist literature. A few have, but most tend to just spun out what they
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 1, 2009
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                    --- On Sun, 2/1/09, Scott Bieser <scott@...> wrote:
                    > Have you actually READ any serious anarchist literature?

                    My experience has been that most minarchists and statists have not read serious anarchist literature. A few have, but most tend to just spun out what they think anarchism means, what anarchists think, and go from there. (I'm not asserting I'm free of rushing to judgment before reading or learning about something, but this trait is widespread among minarchists -- or I must be cursed with mostly running into the lesser lights among them.:)

                    But this is not symmetric: most anarchists I've met -- well most libertarian anarchists -- have read the "serious" minarchist literature.

                    Regards,

                    Dan
                  • Scott Bieser
                    ... Well, certainly, because the vast majority of market anarchists started out as minarchists, then evolved. -- -- Scott Bieser Illustrator, Cartoonist,
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 1, 2009
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                      Dan Ust wrote:
                      > --- On Sun, 2/1/09, Scott Bieser <scott@...> wrote:
                      >> Have you actually READ any serious anarchist literature?
                      >
                      > My experience has been that most minarchists and statists have not
                      > read serious anarchist literature. A few have, but most tend to just
                      > spun out what they think anarchism means, what anarchists think, and
                      > go from there. (I'm not asserting I'm free of rushing to judgment
                      > before reading or learning about something, but this trait is
                      > widespread among minarchists -- or I must be cursed with mostly
                      > running into the lesser lights among them.:)
                      >
                      > But this is not symmetric: most anarchists I've met -- well most
                      > libertarian anarchists -- have read the "serious" minarchist
                      > literature.
                      >

                      Well, certainly, because the vast majority of market anarchists started
                      out as minarchists, then evolved.


                      --
                      -- Scott Bieser
                      Illustrator, Cartoonist, Designer
                      View my on-line graphic novel _ODYSSEUS THE REBEL_ at
                      http://www.bigheadpress.com/otr
                    • professorbear
                      The evidence available suggests that he s never read anything. JR
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 1, 2009
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                        The evidence available suggests that he's never read anything.

                        JR


                        --- In LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com, Scott Bieser <scott@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Have you actually READ any serious anarchist literature?
                        >
                        >
                        > terry12622000 wrote:
                        > > Could be partly because most anarchist define their terms so
                        > > poorly.
                        > > I mean calling themselves anarchist makes no sense from a
                        > > promotial standpoint. I mean face it anarchy even for anarchist
                        > > doesn't have mass appeal.--- In LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com,
                        > > Jesse Walker <jwalkernot@> wrote:
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> Kevin Carson wrote:
                        > >>
                        > >>> I confess I came pretty close to putting my own comment in "fuck
                        > > off"
                        > >>> terms. It gets a bit old, seeing the same half-assed and poorly
                        > >>> thought out arguments against anarchism that I've seen a thousand
                        > >>> times before, trotted out by people who think they're clever for
                        > >>> having just invented them. "With no government, you can't stop
                        > >>> lynchings." Or even worse, "what about Somalia (snicker)?"
                        > > Yeah, I
                        > >>> only read that one on Daily Kos about a billion years ago.
                        > >> It's the same smug tone you hear from people who just CAN'T
                        > > CONCEIVE of
                        > >> why anyone would be opposed to dropping nuclear bombs on Hiroshima
                        > > and
                        > >> Nagasaki -- after all, that flies in the face of everything they
                        > >> remember from 10th grade social studies...
                        > >>
                        > >> But for most folks out there, anarchism is a very counterintuitive
                        > > idea;
                        > >> they probably haven't heard the arguments you've had to offer a
                        > > thousand
                        > >> times already. One of the people in the H&R thread sounds like he'd
                        > > like
                        > >> to be an anarchist if he could be persuaded that it works. So
                        > > persuade
                        > >> away, I say.
                        > >>
                        > >
                        >
                        > --
                        > -- Scott Bieser
                        > Illustrator, Cartoonist, Designer
                        > View my on-line graphic novel _ODYSSEUS THE REBEL_ at
                        > http://www.bigheadpress.com/otr
                        >
                      • Dan Ust
                        ... Didn t think that needed pointing out. :) Regards, Dan
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 1, 2009
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                          --- On Sun, 2/1/09, Scott Bieser <scott@...> wrote:
                          > Dan Ust wrote:
                          > > --- On Sun, 2/1/09, Scott Bieser
                          > <scott@...> wrote:
                          > >> Have you actually READ any serious anarchist
                          > literature?
                          > >
                          > > My experience has been that most minarchists and
                          > statists have not
                          > > read serious anarchist literature. A few have, but
                          > most tend to just
                          > > spun out what they think anarchism means, what
                          > anarchists think, and
                          > > go from there. (I'm not asserting I'm free of
                          > rushing to judgment
                          > > before reading or learning about something, but this
                          > trait is
                          > > widespread among minarchists -- or I must be cursed
                          > with mostly
                          > > running into the lesser lights among them.:)
                          > >
                          > > But this is not symmetric: most anarchists I've
                          > met -- well most
                          > > libertarian anarchists -- have read the
                          > "serious" minarchist
                          > > literature.
                          > >
                          >
                          > Well, certainly, because the vast majority of market
                          > anarchists started
                          > out as minarchists, then evolved.

                          Didn't think that needed pointing out. :)

                          Regards,

                          Dan
                        • terry12622000
                          Yes, a lot of it but I still say the word anarchist is a very poor promotial tool.--- In LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com, Scott Bieser ... in fuck ...
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 1, 2009
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                            Yes, a lot of it but I still say the word anarchist is a very poor
                            promotial tool.--- In LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com, Scott Bieser
                            <scott@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Have you actually READ any serious anarchist literature?
                            >
                            >
                            > terry12622000 wrote:
                            > > Could be partly because most anarchist define their terms so
                            > > poorly.
                            > > I mean calling themselves anarchist makes no sense from a
                            > > promotial standpoint. I mean face it anarchy even for anarchist
                            > > doesn't have mass appeal.--- In LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com,
                            > > Jesse Walker <jwalkernot@> wrote:
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> Kevin Carson wrote:
                            > >>
                            > >>> I confess I came pretty close to putting my own comment
                            in "fuck
                            > > off"
                            > >>> terms. It gets a bit old, seeing the same half-assed and poorly
                            > >>> thought out arguments against anarchism that I've seen a
                            thousand
                            > >>> times before, trotted out by people who think they're clever for
                            > >>> having just invented them. "With no government, you can't stop
                            > >>> lynchings." Or even worse, "what about Somalia (snicker)?"
                            > > Yeah, I
                            > >>> only read that one on Daily Kos about a billion years ago.
                            > >> It's the same smug tone you hear from people who just CAN'T
                            > > CONCEIVE of
                            > >> why anyone would be opposed to dropping nuclear bombs on
                            Hiroshima
                            > > and
                            > >> Nagasaki -- after all, that flies in the face of everything they
                            > >> remember from 10th grade social studies...
                            > >>
                            > >> But for most folks out there, anarchism is a very
                            counterintuitive
                            > > idea;
                            > >> they probably haven't heard the arguments you've had to offer a
                            > > thousand
                            > >> times already. One of the people in the H&R thread sounds like
                            he'd
                            > > like
                            > >> to be an anarchist if he could be persuaded that it works. So
                            > > persuade
                            > >> away, I say.
                            > >>
                            > >
                            >
                            > --
                            > -- Scott Bieser
                            > Illustrator, Cartoonist, Designer
                            > View my on-line graphic novel _ODYSSEUS THE REBEL_ at
                            > http://www.bigheadpress.com/otr
                            >
                          • Dan Ust
                            Name names or name titles you ve read please. Regards, Dan
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 1, 2009
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                              Name names or name titles you've read please.

                              Regards,

                              Dan

                              --- On Sun, 2/1/09, terry12622000 <cottondrop@...> wrote:
                              > Yes, a lot of it but I still say the word anarchist is a
                              > very poor
                              > promotial tool.--- In LeftLibertarian2@yahoogroups.com,
                              > Scott Bieser
                              > <scott@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Have you actually READ any serious anarchist
                              > literature?
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