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Re: [LeftLibertarian] Sharon Saving Agent Arafat

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  • Kevin Carson
    Good analysis. My own belief was that, under Oslo, the Israelis were planning to create a nominally independent Palestinian banana republic with Arafat as El
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 5 7:21 AM
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      Good analysis. My own belief was that, under Oslo, the Israelis were
      planning to create a nominally independent Palestinian banana republic with
      Arafat as "El Supremo." Arafat could appeal to the imagery of his role in
      the past struggle to appease some of the dissent, while keeping things under
      control for his owners. The Palestinian state would be an excellent reserve
      of cheap seasonal labor for Israeli agribusiness. Some sort of nominally
      bi-national authority could be created to control the Jordan's water system,
      and kept under real Israeli control.

      In 2000 Arafat saw himself being outflanked to the left and losing his aura
      of legitimacy, and tried to assert himself to show a little bit of
      independence. At that point, the sorcerer's apprentice lost control of the
      brooms.

      >From: Lloyd Miller <lloyd@...>
      >Reply-To: LeftLibertarian@yahoogroups.com
      >To: New Paradigms Discussion <prj@...>
      >Subject: [LeftLibertarian] Sharon Saving Agent Arafat
      >Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 02:51:45 -0800
      >
      > Clearly Arafat did not have the influence and power
      >to control Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc...These radical
      >groups are the real rulers of occupied Palestine, not
      >Arafat. This did not suit Sharon!
      >
      > Sharon surrounded Arfat to protect him while the
      >Israeli army attempts to stamp-out as many radicals
      >as possible. Arafat kindly eggs on the radicals by
      >encouraging them to fight to the last and never
      >surrender! Arafat says HE is a martyr though
      >completely safe surrounded by Israeli soldiers! He
      >encourages more martydom from Palestinians as
      >the Israeli army invades, upping the the kill rate
      >of the Israelis!
      >
      > After the smoke clears, Sharon hopes to put
      >Arafat back in power with Arafat's reputation for
      >Palestinian "patroitism" still intact! What a cunning
      >charade!
      >
      > Lloyd


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    • Kedar Cohen
      Very funny analysis both of you Keven and Lloyd. What Sharon is doing is getting me very upset. My reaction is Oy Vey, when are the children of Abraham going
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 9 1:07 AM
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        Very funny analysis both of you Keven and Lloyd. What Sharon is doing is
        getting me very upset. My reaction is Oy Vey, when are the children of
        Abraham going to stop acting like spoiled brats and grow up and work out a
        moral rational resolution to their problems with each other?

        The children of Abraham are both the Jews and/or Zionists and
        Arabs/Palastinians. The Jews are the Children of Isaac and the Arabs are
        the Children of Ishmail. Just because Isaac and Ishmail failed to practice
        unconditional love with each other is no reason their children and
        descendants have to fight with each other for the duration of planet earth.
        Until the Isrealies and Palastinian people and their political
        representatives continue to act like spoiled brats, their stupid conflicts
        will continue and pull us into a premature destruction of the rest of the
        world. I say to Israel and its people and political leaders and the
        Palastinians and their political leaders: GROW UP, ACT LIKE ADULTS, GET TO
        THE NEGOTIATION TABLE AND WORK OUT A MORAL RATIONAL ARRANGEMENT FOR
        EVERYONE CONCERNED.


        At 03:21 PM 04/05/2002 +0000, you wrote:

        >Good analysis. My own belief was that, under Oslo, the Israelis were
        >planning to create a nominally independent Palestinian banana republic with
        >Arafat as "El Supremo." Arafat could appeal to the imagery of his role in
        >the past struggle to appease some of the dissent, while keeping things under
        >control for his owners. The Palestinian state would be an excellent reserve
        >of cheap seasonal labor for Israeli agribusiness. Some sort of nominally
        >bi-national authority could be created to control the Jordan's water system,
        >and kept under real Israeli control.
        >
        >In 2000 Arafat saw himself being outflanked to the left and losing his aura
        >of legitimacy, and tried to assert himself to show a little bit of
        >independence. At that point, the sorcerer's apprentice lost control of the
        >brooms.
        >
        > >From: Lloyd Miller <lloyd@...>
        > >Reply-To: LeftLibertarian@yahoogroups.com
        > >To: New Paradigms Discussion <prj@...>
        > >Subject: [LeftLibertarian] Sharon Saving Agent Arafat
        > >Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 02:51:45 -0800
        > >
        > > Clearly Arafat did not have the influence and power
        > >to control Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc...These radical
        > >groups are the real rulers of occupied Palestine, not
        > >Arafat. This did not suit Sharon!
        > >
        > > Sharon surrounded Arfat to protect him while the
        > >Israeli army attempts to stamp-out as many radicals
        > >as possible. Arafat kindly eggs on the radicals by
        > >encouraging them to fight to the last and never
        > >surrender! Arafat says HE is a martyr though
        > >completely safe surrounded by Israeli soldiers! He
        > >encourages more martydom from Palestinians as
        > >the Israeli army invades, upping the the kill rate
        > >of the Israelis!
        > >
        > > After the smoke clears, Sharon hopes to put
        > >Arafat back in power with Arafat's reputation for
        > >Palestinian "patroitism" still intact! What a cunning
        > >charade!
        > >
        > > Lloyd
        >
        >
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      • Bill Hartwell
        ... Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjyzRqMACgkQAEWCS/G3bx6qrgCfU88xSvbUTIfFRmdrR/R/4PIM
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 9 12:53 PM
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          On Tuesday 09 April 2002 02:07 am, Kedar Cohen wrote:
          > Very funny analysis both of you Keven and Lloyd. What Sharon is doing is
          > getting me very upset. My reaction is Oy Vey, when are the children of
          > Abraham going to stop acting like spoiled brats and grow up and work out a
          > moral rational resolution to their problems with each other?

          You'll have to ask the so-called "Palestinians" that, don't you think?

          Then again, it's the "Palestinians", not the Jews, who have:

          1) stated repeatedly that the total eradication of Israel is their goal;
          2) stated repeatedly that any "agreements" made that do not include the total
          eradication of Israel are merely "temporary" agreements; and
          3) called for the murder of every Jew on earth - not just in Israel


          "The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Muslims make war against
          the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and
          the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, Oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew
          behind me, come and kill him!'" [Sheikh Muhammed Abd al Hadi La'afi,
          Responsible for Religious Teaching and Instruction in the Office of the Wakf
          in the official Palestinian Authorit newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 18, May
          2001 and 27 April 2001, Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi Palestinian Television in
          the main Friday sermons on 30 March 2001 and 13 April 2001.]

          "We the Palestinian nation, our fate from Allah is to be the vanguard in the
          war against the Jews until the resurrection of the dead, as the prophet
          Muhammad said: 'The resurrection of the dead will not arrive until you will
          fight the Jews and kill them... ' We the Palestinians are the vanguard in
          this undertaking and in this campaign, whether or not we want this..." [Dr.
          Muhammed Ibrahim Madi, Palestinian Television, 28 July 2000]

          "Blessed is he who fights Jihad in the name of Allah, blessed is he who [goes
          on] raids in the name of Allah, blessed is he who dons a vest of explosives
          on himself or on his children and goes in to the depth of the Jews and says:
          Allahu Akbar, Blessed be Allah. Like the collapse of the building upon the
          heads of the Jews in their sinful dance-hall, I ask of Allah that we see the
          Knesset collapsing on the heads of the Jews." [Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Madi,
          Friday Sermon, Palestinian TV, June 8, 2001]

          "The battle with the Jews will surely come... the decisive Muslim victory is
          coming without a doubt, and the prophet spoke about in more than one Hadith
          and the Day of resurrection will not come without the victory of the
          believers [the Muslims] over the descendents of the monkeys and pigs [the
          Jews] and with their annihilation." [Sheikh Muhammed Abd Al Hadi La'afi,
          Responsible for Religious Teaching and Instruction in the Office of the Wakf
          in the official P.A. newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 18, May 2001]

          "The Jews are the Jews. There never was among them a supporter of peace. They
          are all liars... the true criminals, the Jewish terrorists, that slaughtered
          our children, that turned our wives into widows and our children into
          orphans, and desecrated our holy places. They are terrorists. Therefore it is
          necessary to slaughter them and murder them, according to the words of
          Allah... it is forbidden to have mercy in your hearts for the Jews in any
          place and in any land. Make war on them anyplace that you find yourself. Any
          place that you encounter them - kill them. Kill the Jews and those among the
          Americans that are like them... The Jews only understand might. Have no mercy
          on the Jews, murder them everywhere..." [The preacher Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu
          Halabiah, a member of the Palestinian Sharianic (Islamic religious law)
          Rulings Council, and Rector of Advanced Studies, the Islamic University,
          Palestinian Television, 13 October 2000]

          "The Islamic Land of Palestine is one and cannot be divided. There is no
          difference between Haifa and Nablus, between Lod and Ramallah, between
          Jerusalem and Nazareth. Dividing Palestine into cantons and giving
          recognition to the occupation is prohibited by Sharia (Islamic religious
          law), since Palestinian is Wakf [Islamic Trust] for all Muslims in the East
          and in the West. No one has the right to give it up or to forsake it. The
          liberation of Palestinian is mandatory obligation for all Muslims and not
          only for our Palestinian nation." [Shiekh Yuosouf Abu Sneina, Official
          Preacher of the Al Aqsa Mosque, Palestinian Radio , 30 April 1999]

          "We are discussing the current problems and when we speak about Jerusalem it
          doesn't mean that we have forgotten about Hebron or about Jaffa or about
          Acre....we are speaking about the curent problems that have priority at a
          certain time. It doesn't mean that we have given up... We have announced a
          number of times that from a religious point of view Palestine from the sea to
          the river is Islamic." [Sheikh Ikrima Sabri, The Palestinian Authority
          appointed Mufti of Jerusalem and Palestine, Palestinian Television, 11
          January 2001]

          "Even if agreements were signed [regarding] Gaza and the West Bank, we will
          not forget Haifa, Acre, Jaffa, the Galilee Triangle, and the Negev. It is
          only a question of time..."  [Dr. Ahmed Abu Halabiah, Palestinian Television,
          13 October 2000]

          "It is forbidden for anyone, Arab, Palestinian or Muslim to forgo one grain
          of soil of the land of Palestine, Jerusalem and Al Aksa ...whoever forgoes
          even one grain of soil his sin is upon him, and all the sins of the
          Palestinians, the Arabs and the Muslims, forever and ever..." [Shiekh Yuosouf
          Abu Sneina, Official Preacher of the Al Aqsa Mosque, Palestinian Television,
          8 September 2000]

          "...The Jews gathered from all ends of the earth in our beloved Palestine,
          from Rosh HaNikra in the north to Eilat in the south...from sea to river, it
          was all a land of Muslims... Palestine's borders, the promised Palestine, is
          from the sea to the river..." [Ahmad Abu Halabiya, Palestinian Television, 18
          August 2000]

          "All of the agreements entered into [with Israel] are temporary, until the
          decree comes from Allah and until the destiny from Allah is realized."
          [Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi., Palestinian Television, 28 July 2000]

          "...The Muslims and Arabs must stand behind the Palestinian nation, which is
          the vanguard in the war against Allah's enemies. By the living Allah, the
          Jews are Islam's enemies in this life time..." [Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu
          Halabiah, Palestinian Television, 18 August 2000]

          "There are Hadiths (Islamic traditions attributed to the prophet Mohammed)
          regarding our struggle against the Jews. And it is given: "The Day of
          Resurrection will not arrive until the Muslims make war against the Jews and
          kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and
          tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, Oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me,
          come and kill him!' This Hadith clarifies to us the characteristics of the
          campaign between us and the Jews. The tree and the rock do not say 'Oh,
          Palestinian', 'Oh Arab', or 'Oh resident of the Middle East'. Rather they
          say: 'Oh, Moslem, Servant of Allah'" [Dr. Muhammed Madi, Palestinian
          Television, 30 March 2001]

          "The victory is coming, the victory is coming, the victory is coming! Allah
          show us your marvels against the Jews! Show them a black day, like the day of
          A'ad and Tha'mud! [tribes that were defeated and destroyed]. Because they
          boasted to us of their strength! Show us the prince against them, show them a
          black day! Allah, transform them into the Moslems' spoils of war! Allah,
          transform them into our spoils of war!" [Dr. Muhammed Madi, Palestinian
          Television, 13 April 2001]

          ...I was hurt by a letter from an injured [rioter] in one of the hospitals
          where he mentioned that a nurse said "anyone who throws rocks should go to
          hell!" And I was hurt by several fathers that forbid their older children to
          participate in the processions, while this is their right. But when anyone of
          these [fathers] say [to their sons] 'Don't go, and whoever dies is a carcass,
          well then this is one of the most severe transgressions. Furthermore we are
          hurt by some who think they are big but are in fact small, who exploit an
          opportunity to harm the warriors and to mock them. A passive civilian, a
          passive senior ranking individual, or a lazy official may disregard their
          duty, but it is forbidden for them to humiliate the warriors or to mock the
          wounded or to conjure up plots against the field-active generation commanding
          the Intifada. These destructive, abominable [individuals] harm us more than
          the bullets of the occupation, because they constitute a fifth column. Our
          nation must learn a lesson and take them to reckoning later on." [Al Hayat-Al
          Jadida, 27 October 2000] (Al Hayat-Al Jadida is the official daily newspaper
          of the Palestinian Authority)

          "The Martyr Wajdi Al-Hattab (9th grade) responded to the call of Allah and
          achieved the Martyrdom that he yearned for, so that it would clear the way
          for the liberation of Al Aksa and Palestine from the defilement of the
          occupation. He would always say to his friends: 'When I become a Martyr, give
          out Kannafa [sweet cake]. He always spoke about his uncle who became a Martyr
          in southern Lebanon, and yearned to become a Martyr like him - and [now] he
          attained what he yearned for. He reached the highest levels with Allah...
          [Wajdi's gym teacher relates:] Wajdi asked me to give out Kannafa if he
          becomes a Martyr... His classmates swore that they would continue in the path
          of Martyrdom until the liberation of Jerusalem..." [Al Hayat - Al Jadida, 9
          November 2000]  

          "The danger of injury of the boy Saber Al-Ashkar (aged 18), paralysis and
          permanent disability, just added to his mother's determination to encourage
          her sons to participate in the Intifada riots.... and the fact of his injury
          by a live bullet did not cause her to mourn... She said that she had
          [previously] lost her older son Iyad, and described him as the first flower
          that appeared in her life. She is not interested in anything but encouraging
          her sons to self-sacrifice and Martyrdom for the land of Palestine..." [Al
          Ayyam 1 November 2000]

          "A PATV broadcast conducted conversations with 2nd grade school children. An
          interviewer spoke with a child who had thrown stones [in the riots]:
          Interviewer: "You threw stones at the army and injured your leg. Will you
          throw again?"
          Child: "Yes".
          Interviewer: "You aren't afraid to die?"
          Child: [embarrassed, hesitant]
          Interviewer: [indicates "No" to the child by shaking her head in the negative]
          Child: "No." [PATV 19/10/00]

          [Headline]: "The Boy Martyr Karam Al-Kard [age 12] announced of his own death
          on the walls of his home" [article text] "Prior to his being injured... Karam
          announced his own death on the walls of his home and attributed to himself
          Martyrdom and its honor, in his handwriting on the walls. The notice read:
          'The Al-Kard family announces the death of its courageous Martyr Karam Fat'he
          Al-Kard..." [Al Hayat - Al Jadida, 30 November 2000]

          "The Martyr Wajdi [aged 14, said] to his father: 'I will bring you a Shahada
          (Martyrdom) that you will be proud of for the rest of your life'. His mother
          says: 'My son is not my son only, he belongs to his noble Palestinian
          people... One of his friends said that the last words of the Martyr, that he
          repeated over and over, spoke of the significance of Martyrdom and on
          becoming a Martyr." [Al Hayat - Al Jadida, 8 November 2000]

          "[He] sacrificed his son (aged 18) in order to redeem the homeland and
          Jerusalem. He stated that becoming a Martyr is a tremendous source of pride
          and a medal on his chest... he added that his son always spoke about
          martyrdom and his desire to become a Martyr." [Al Hayat - Al Jadida, 9 Nov.
          2000]

          The Martyr Muhammad Abu Tahoun wrote down his final words on his notebook:
          'The Martyrs will attain Paradise, and I will be with them, Allah
          willing...'". [Al Hayat - Al Jadida, 9 November 2000]

          "The father [of Mohammed Hiza' Halas, 23]: ... [He has] great pride that his
          progeny has become a Martyr .... With regard to his mother, she says that her
          offspring wished to become a Martyr and she anticipated it." [Al Hayat - Al
          Jadida, 2 November 2000]

          "Our blood is a sign of our fighting for our precious Palestine" [A teacher,
          next to pupils on Palestinian Television, 2 November 2000]

          "What pushes our children and youth to the arenas of death?... [Ramadan Saadi
          Abd Rabbo, an injured 13-year-old, said:] 'my goal is not to be injured, but
          rather something higher: Martyrdom.'" [Al Hayat - Al Jadida, 8 November 2000]

          "The wounded 11-year-old, Amr Qarut, wants to win the honor of a Martyr's
          death... and he insists on continuing the [violent] struggle." [Al Hayat - Al
          Jadida, 6 November 2000]

          "The wounded Sa'ed Awad Allah [aged 11], from the Jaballiya [refugee] camp
          said: We are all potential Martyrs for Jerusalem and the Homeland" [Al Hayat
          - - Al Jadida, 6 November 2000]

          "We must battle until we achieve peace on our own and until our blood will
          not be spilled for naught, we must battle and die in order to attain all that
          we want." [8-year-old girl Halah Badir] [Al Ayyam, 2 November 2000]

          "[22-year-old Tauzem Musa Abu Def's] brother... feels honor and pride from
          his brother's becoming a Martyr, ...and added that he intends to continue on
          the path started by his brother." [Al Ayyam, 2 November 2000]

          " I will take my soul in my hand and toss it into the abyss of death. And
          then either life that will gladden friends or death that will anger the
          enemy. The honorable soul has two objectives: Achieving death and honor."
          'Song of the Martyr' recited by schoolgirls. (the poem appears in 5th, 6th
          and 12th grade PA school books) [PATV, 27 October 2000]

          Narrator: "... the heroine was shot ...and her pure blood flowing and her
          pure spirit joyously going to her creator...." Girl's Mother: "I asked: who
          is she that died? She told me - 'it's your daughter.' I said: 'Thank Allah,
          thank Allah. We have a right to liberate our homeland and we will liberate
          it. It is our honor to fall ... She would say "it doesn't matter, I will die
          for the redemption of the homeland", meaning - I want to die for the
          redemption of the homeland... Intisar fell and it is an honor for us and an
          honor for our children..." Relative of the family:..."Every time she heard a
          bang [she said] 'someone was shot, I hope that next time it will be me, I
          want to die as a martyr'. [PA TV - Oct. 7, 1998]

          Mother of Muhammad ["martyred" in the riots]: "...I hope that all my children
          will be martyrs..." [PA TV - Sept. 9, 1998]
           
          Then there is this transcript of a sermon broadcast over PA TV on August 3,
          2001:

          "I heard a youth say, 'Oh, Sheikh, I am now 14 years old. I have 4 more years
          and then I will go to blow myself up among Allah's enemies, I will blow
          myself up among the Jews.' " I said to him, 'Allah should let you merit
          Martyrdom and let me merit Martyrdom'...

          "All weapons must be aimed at the Jews, at the enemies of Allah, the cursed
          nation in the Koran, whom the Koran describes as monkeys and pigs,
          worshippers of the calf and idol worshippers.

          "Allah shall make the Moslem rule over the Jew, we will blow them up in
          Hadera, we will blow them up in Tel-Aviv and in Netanya in the righteousness
          of Allah against this rif-raff, we will fight against them and rule over them
          until the Jew will hide behind the trees and stones and the tree and stone
          will say: 'Moslem! Servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, kill him!'

          "We will enter Jerusalem as conquerors, and Jaffa as conquerors, and Haifa as
          conquerors and Ashkelon as conquerors, we are certain that the victory is
          quickly coming... as we bless anyone who rises against a soldier, we bless
          all those who educate their children to Jihad and to Martyrdom, blessings to
          he who shot a bullet into the head of a Jew...

          [The preacher signs off his sermon]
          "Allah, make for them [the Jews] a black day, like the day of A'ad and
          Tha'mud! [tribes that were destroyed]
          Allah, make for them a black day, like the day of A'ad and Tha'mud!
          Allah, make for them a black day, like the day of A'ad and Tha'mud!"

          - --
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        • Kevin Carson
          That s quite a long list of quotes, but since it doesn t include three million people, I doubt if they re (severally or collectively) authorized to speak for
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 10 3:46 PM
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            That's quite a long list of quotes, but since it doesn't include three
            million people, I doubt if they're (severally or collectively) authorized to
            speak for the Palestinian people.

            But I wouldn't be surprised if these sentiments are pretty widespread.
            If the Nazis had won WWII, and France were presently an occupied country,
            with hundreds of "Free French" expatriates in refugee camps, I imagine the
            Resistance today would be using some pretty ethnocentric rhetoric against
            the Germans. And there might even be a few people strapping explosives to
            themselves and walking into the local Biergarten. Growing up in refugee
            camps does some pretty ugly things to the human psyche. I recall reading
            that a sizable minority of Americans--around 30%, I think--favored
            ethnically cleansing the Japanese Home Islands in 1945.

            To take the Resistance analogy a little farther, if modern France was a
            Nazi-occupied country, CNN and the other corporate media whores would be
            tamely tagging along where the IDF gave them permission to go, and
            obligingly filming what the Israelis wanted them to see. Which means TV
            viewers in America would see a lot of pictures of kids throwing rocks, and
            scenes of devastation after suicide bombings; but they wouldn't see the
            brutality of an entire population being subjected to house-to-house
            searches, detention, and even torture, without due process of law.

            The irony of it is, European-style anti-semitism was almost unknown in the
            Middle East until the beginning of large-scale Zionist settlement.
            Traditionally, Judaism was viewed as a sort of religious heresy (qualifying
            the Jews as "People of the Book") but the disapproval for the most part
            lacked any virulent racialist overtones. It wasn't until the 1920s and
            1930s that Arabic translations of "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" started
            flying off the shelves.

            And I wouldn't be surprised if you could find just as many similar quotes
            from the fundamentalist settlers on the West Bank about exterminating the
            "Canaanites" from "Judea and Samaria."

            And don't forget the resort to terrorism by the Irgun and Stern Gang in
            their war of national liberation against the British; it included terror
            against Palestinian civilians as well. BTW, I think any meaningful
            definition of terrorism would apply to any use of force against civilians to
            frighten or demoralize a population, regardless of whether the violence was
            committed by individuals, political organizations, or states. When a state
            bombs water treatment facilities (like the U.S. in Iraq), or deliberately
            targets the civilian infrastructure, terrorizes entire populations of
            civilians, and shoots at media and Red Cross people trying to help, it's
            pretty clear the "collateral damage" isn't accidental. It's cold-blooded
            state policy. The butcher of Sabra knows exactly what he's doing.

            I assume your putting "Palestinian" in quotes has something to do with the
            official Zionist doctrine that there is no Palestinian people, and that the
            proper homeland for them is in Jordan. It's true that before the Zionist
            colonization of Palestine, the Palestinians had a pretty undeveloped sense
            of national identity as a people distinct from the rest of greater Syria.
            But they developed that sense of identity pretty quickly under foreign
            occupation. Coupling that with the fact that they live within a
            geographically defined area, I'd say that if they call themselves a people,
            they are one.

            They certainly have as much right to call themselves a nation as the
            Zionists have to create a blood-and-soil myth of the "Jewish People." How
            much sense does it make to claim that a blond-haired Yiddish speaker, a
            swarthy Ladino speaker, a black-skinned Ethiopian Jew, and a brown Moroccan
            Jew are descended from ancient Hebrews? The Zionist racialist myth of
            claiming rights based on descent from ancient Hebrews bears less historical
            scrutiny than Mussolini's myth of the resurrected Roman Empire. The
            modern-day Palestinian Arab probably has more actual genetic material from
            the ancient Hebrews. Practicing a later variant of the same religion as an
            ancient people doesn't entitle you to a national homeland.

            The neocons have argued recently that anyone who has a problem with Israel
            is by definition anti-Semitic, for the same reason that somebody who hates
            France (the only French national state) is anti-French. Well, I think the
            Romany are entitled to a homeland; and a good place for it would be
            Manhattan, with its capital right about where the offices of "Commentary"
            magazine are now. And anyone opposed to a Romany homeland must be
            anti-Gypsy.


            >From: Bill Hartwell <whartwel@...>
            >Reply-To: LeftLibertarian@yahoogroups.com
            >To: LeftLibertarian@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [LeftLibertarian] Sharon Saving Agent Arafat
            >Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 13:53:07 -0600
            >
            >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
            >Hash: SHA1
            >
            >You'll have to ask the so-called "Palestinians" that, don't you think?
            >
            >Then again, it's the "Palestinians", not the Jews, who have:
            >
            >1) stated repeatedly that the total eradication of Israel is their goal;
            >2) stated repeatedly that any "agreements" made that do not include the
            >total
            >eradication of Israel are merely "temporary" agreements; and
            >3) called for the murder of every Jew on earth - not just in Israel
            >
            >
            >"The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Muslims make war against
            >the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and
            >the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, Oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew
            >behind me, come and kill him!'" [Sheikh Muhammed Abd al Hadi La'afi,
            >Responsible for Religious Teaching and Instruction in the Office of the
            >Wakf
            >in the official Palestinian Authorit newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 18, May
            >2001 and 27 April 2001, Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi Palestinian Television in
            >the main Friday sermons on 30 March 2001 and 13 April 2001.]
            >
            >"We the Palestinian nation, our fate from Allah is to be the vanguard in
            >the
            >war against the Jews until the resurrection of the dead, as the prophet
            >Muhammad said: 'The resurrection of the dead will not arrive until you will
            >fight the Jews and kill them... ' We the Palestinians are the vanguard in
            >this undertaking and in this campaign, whether or not we want this..." [Dr.
            >Muhammed Ibrahim Madi, Palestinian Television, 28 July 2000]
            >
            >"Blessed is he who fights Jihad in the name of Allah, blessed is he who
            >[goes
            >on] raids in the name of Allah, blessed is he who dons a vest of explosives
            >on himself or on his children and goes in to the depth of the Jews and
            >says:
            >Allahu Akbar, Blessed be Allah. Like the collapse of the building upon the
            >heads of the Jews in their sinful dance-hall, I ask of Allah that we see
            >the
            >Knesset collapsing on the heads of the Jews." [Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Madi,
            >Friday Sermon, Palestinian TV, June 8, 2001]
            >
            >"The battle with the Jews will surely come... the decisive Muslim victory
            >is
            >coming without a doubt, and the prophet spoke about in more than one Hadith
            >and the Day of resurrection will not come without the victory of the
            >believers [the Muslims] over the descendents of the monkeys and pigs [the
            >Jews] and with their annihilation." [Sheikh Muhammed Abd Al Hadi La'afi,
            >Responsible for Religious Teaching and Instruction in the Office of the
            >Wakf
            >in the official P.A. newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 18, May 2001]
            >
            >"The Jews are the Jews. There never was among them a supporter of peace.
            >They
            >are all liars... the true criminals, the Jewish terrorists, that
            >slaughtered
            >our children, that turned our wives into widows and our children into
            >orphans, and desecrated our holy places. They are terrorists. Therefore it
            >is
            >necessary to slaughter them and murder them, according to the words of
            >Allah... it is forbidden to have mercy in your hearts for the Jews in any
            >place and in any land. Make war on them anyplace that you find yourself.
            >Any
            >place that you encounter them - kill them. Kill the Jews and those among
            >the
            >Americans that are like them... The Jews only understand might. Have no
            >mercy
            >on the Jews, murder them everywhere..." [The preacher Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu
            >Halabiah, a member of the Palestinian Sharianic (Islamic religious law)
            >Rulings Council, and Rector of Advanced Studies, the Islamic University,
            >Palestinian Television, 13 October 2000]
            >
            >"The Islamic Land of Palestine is one and cannot be divided. There is no
            >difference between Haifa and Nablus, between Lod and Ramallah, between
            >Jerusalem and Nazareth. Dividing Palestine into cantons and giving
            >recognition to the occupation is prohibited by Sharia (Islamic religious
            >law), since Palestinian is Wakf [Islamic Trust] for all Muslims in the East
            >and in the West. No one has the right to give it up or to forsake it. The
            >liberation of Palestinian is mandatory obligation for all Muslims and not
            >only for our Palestinian nation." [Shiekh Yuosouf Abu Sneina, Official
            >Preacher of the Al Aqsa Mosque, Palestinian Radio , 30 April 1999]
            >
            >"We are discussing the current problems and when we speak about Jerusalem
            >it
            >doesn't mean that we have forgotten about Hebron or about Jaffa or about
            >Acre....we are speaking about the curent problems that have priority at a
            >certain time. It doesn't mean that we have given up... We have announced a
            >number of times that from a religious point of view Palestine from the sea
            >to
            >the river is Islamic." [Sheikh Ikrima Sabri, The Palestinian Authority
            >appointed Mufti of Jerusalem and Palestine, Palestinian Television, 11
            >January 2001]
            >
            >"Even if agreements were signed [regarding] Gaza and the West Bank, we will
            >not forget Haifa, Acre, Jaffa, the Galilee Triangle, and the Negev. It is
            >only a question of time..." �[Dr. Ahmed Abu Halabiah, Palestinian
            >Television,
            >13 October 2000]
            >
            >"It is forbidden for anyone, Arab, Palestinian or Muslim to forgo one grain
            >of soil of the land of Palestine, Jerusalem and Al Aksa ...whoever forgoes
            >even one grain of soil his sin is upon him, and all the sins of the
            >Palestinians, the Arabs and the Muslims, forever and ever..." [Shiekh
            >Yuosouf
            >Abu Sneina, Official Preacher of the Al Aqsa Mosque, Palestinian
            >Television,
            >8 September 2000]
            >
            >"...The Jews gathered from all ends of the earth in our beloved Palestine,
            >from Rosh HaNikra in the north to Eilat in the south...from sea to river,
            >it
            >was all a land of Muslims... Palestine's borders, the promised Palestine,
            >is
            >from the sea to the river..." [Ahmad Abu Halabiya, Palestinian Television,
            >18
            >August 2000]
            >
            >"All of the agreements entered into [with Israel] are temporary, until the
            >decree comes from Allah and until the destiny from Allah is realized."
            >[Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi., Palestinian Television, 28 July 2000]
            >
            >"...The Muslims and Arabs must stand behind the Palestinian nation, which
            >is
            >the vanguard in the war against Allah's enemies. By the living Allah, the
            >Jews are Islam's enemies in this life time..." [Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu
            >Halabiah, Palestinian Television, 18 August 2000]
            >
            >"There are Hadiths (Islamic traditions attributed to the prophet Mohammed)
            >regarding our struggle against the Jews. And it is given: "The Day of
            >Resurrection will not arrive until the Muslims make war against the Jews
            >and
            >kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and
            >tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, Oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me,
            >come and kill him!' This Hadith clarifies to us the characteristics of the
            >campaign between us and the Jews. The tree and the rock do not say 'Oh,
            >Palestinian', 'Oh Arab', or 'Oh resident of the Middle East'. Rather they
            >say: 'Oh, Moslem, Servant of Allah'" [Dr. Muhammed Madi, Palestinian
            >Television, 30 March 2001]
            >
            >"The victory is coming, the victory is coming, the victory is coming! Allah
            >show us your marvels against the Jews! Show them a black day, like the day
            >of
            >A'ad and Tha'mud! [tribes that were defeated and destroyed]. Because they
            >boasted to us of their strength! Show us the prince against them, show them
            >a
            >black day! Allah, transform them into the Moslems' spoils of war! Allah,
            >transform them into our spoils of war!" [Dr. Muhammed Madi, Palestinian
            >Television, 13 April 2001]
            >
            >...I was hurt by a letter from an injured [rioter] in one of the hospitals
            >where he mentioned that a nurse said "anyone who throws rocks should go to
            >hell!" And I was hurt by several fathers that forbid their older children
            >to
            >participate in the processions, while this is their right. But when anyone
            >of
            >these [fathers] say [to their sons] 'Don't go, and whoever dies is a
            >carcass,
            >well then this is one of the most severe transgressions. Furthermore we are
            >hurt by some who think they are big but are in fact small, who exploit an
            >opportunity to harm the warriors and to mock them. A passive civilian, a
            >passive senior ranking individual, or a lazy official may disregard their
            >duty, but it is forbidden for them to humiliate the warriors or to mock the
            >wounded or to conjure up plots against the field-active generation
            >commanding
            >the Intifada. These destructive, abominable [individuals] harm us more than
            >the bullets of the occupation, because they constitute a fifth column. Our
            >nation must learn a lesson and take them to reckoning later on." [Al
            >Hayat-Al
            >Jadida, 27 October 2000] (Al Hayat-Al Jadida is the official daily
            >newspaper
            >of the Palestinian Authority)
            >
            >"The Martyr Wajdi Al-Hattab (9th grade) responded to the call of Allah and
            >achieved the Martyrdom that he yearned for, so that it would clear the way
            >for the liberation of Al Aksa and Palestine from the defilement of the
            >occupation. He would always say to his friends: 'When I become a Martyr,
            >give
            >out Kannafa [sweet cake]. He always spoke about his uncle who became a
            >Martyr
            >in southern Lebanon, and yearned to become a Martyr like him - and [now] he
            >attained what he yearned for. He reached the highest levels with Allah...
            >[Wajdi's gym teacher relates:] Wajdi asked me to give out Kannafa if he
            >becomes a Martyr... His classmates swore that they would continue in the
            >path
            >of Martyrdom until the liberation of Jerusalem..." [Al Hayat - Al Jadida, 9
            >November 2000] �
            >
            >"The danger of injury of the boy Saber Al-Ashkar (aged 18), paralysis and
            >permanent disability, just added to his mother's determination to encourage
            >her sons to participate in the Intifada riots.... and the fact of his
            >injury
            >by a live bullet did not cause her to mourn... She said that she had
            >[previously] lost her older son Iyad, and described him as the first flower
            >that appeared in her life. She is not interested in anything but
            >encouraging
            >her sons to self-sacrifice and Martyrdom for the land of Palestine..." [Al
            >Ayyam 1 November 2000]
            >
            >"A PATV broadcast conducted conversations with 2nd grade school children.
            >An
            >interviewer spoke with a child who had thrown stones [in the riots]:
            >Interviewer: "You threw stones at the army and injured your leg. Will you
            >throw again?"
            >Child: "Yes".
            >Interviewer: "You aren't afraid to die?"
            >Child: [embarrassed, hesitant]
            >Interviewer: [indicates "No" to the child by shaking her head in the
            >negative]
            >Child: "No." [PATV 19/10/00]
            >
            >[Headline]: "The Boy Martyr Karam Al-Kard [age 12] announced of his own
            >death
            >on the walls of his home" [article text] "Prior to his being injured...
            >Karam
            >announced his own death on the walls of his home and attributed to himself
            >Martyrdom and its honor, in his handwriting on the walls. The notice read:
            >'The Al-Kard family announces the death of its courageous Martyr Karam
            >Fat'he
            >Al-Kard..." [Al Hayat - Al Jadida, 30 November 2000]
            >
            >"The Martyr Wajdi [aged 14, said] to his father: 'I will bring you a
            >Shahada
            >(Martyrdom) that you will be proud of for the rest of your life'. His
            >mother
            >says: 'My son is not my son only, he belongs to his noble Palestinian
            >people... One of his friends said that the last words of the Martyr, that
            >he
            >repeated over and over, spoke of the significance of Martyrdom and on
            >becoming a Martyr." [Al Hayat - Al Jadida, 8 November 2000]
            >
            >"[He] sacrificed his son (aged 18) in order to redeem the homeland and
            >Jerusalem. He stated that becoming a Martyr is a tremendous source of pride
            >and a medal on his chest... he added that his son always spoke about
            >martyrdom and his desire to become a Martyr." [Al Hayat - Al Jadida, 9 Nov.
            >2000]
            >
            >The Martyr Muhammad Abu Tahoun wrote down his final words on his notebook:
            >'The Martyrs will attain Paradise, and I will be with them, Allah
            >willing...'". [Al Hayat - Al Jadida, 9 November 2000]
            >
            >"The father [of Mohammed Hiza' Halas, 23]: ... [He has] great pride that
            >his
            >progeny has become a Martyr .... With regard to his mother, she says that
            >her
            >offspring wished to become a Martyr and she anticipated it." [Al Hayat - Al
            >Jadida, 2 November 2000]
            >
            >"Our blood is a sign of our fighting for our precious Palestine" [A
            >teacher,
            >next to pupils on Palestinian Television, 2 November 2000]
            >
            >"What pushes our children and youth to the arenas of death?... [Ramadan
            >Saadi
            >Abd Rabbo, an injured 13-year-old, said:] 'my goal is not to be injured,
            >but
            >rather something higher: Martyrdom.'" [Al Hayat - Al Jadida, 8 November
            >2000]
            >
            >"The wounded 11-year-old, Amr Qarut, wants to win the honor of a Martyr's
            >death... and he insists on continuing the [violent] struggle." [Al Hayat -
            >Al
            >Jadida, 6 November 2000]
            >
            >"The wounded Sa'ed Awad Allah [aged 11], from the Jaballiya [refugee] camp
            >said: We are all potential Martyrs for Jerusalem and the Homeland" [Al
            >Hayat
            >- - Al Jadida, 6 November 2000]
            >
            >"We must battle until we achieve peace on our own and until our blood will
            >not be spilled for naught, we must battle and die in order to attain all
            >that
            >we want." [8-year-old girl Halah Badir] [Al Ayyam, 2 November 2000]
            >
            >"[22-year-old Tauzem Musa Abu Def's] brother... feels honor and pride from
            >his brother's becoming a Martyr, ...and added that he intends to continue
            >on
            >the path started by his brother." [Al Ayyam, 2 November 2000]
            >
            >" I will take my soul in my hand and toss it into the abyss of death. And
            >then either life that will gladden friends or death that will anger the
            >enemy. The honorable soul has two objectives: Achieving death and honor."
            >'Song of the Martyr' recited by schoolgirls. (the poem appears in 5th, 6th
            >and 12th grade PA school books) [PATV, 27 October 2000]
            >
            >Narrator: "... the heroine was shot ...and her pure blood flowing and her
            >pure spirit joyously going to her creator...." Girl's Mother: "I asked: who
            >is she that died? She told me - 'it's your daughter.' I said: 'Thank Allah,
            >thank Allah. We have a right to liberate our homeland and we will liberate
            >it. It is our honor to fall ... She would say "it doesn't matter, I will
            >die
            >for the redemption of the homeland", meaning - I want to die for the
            >redemption of the homeland... Intisar fell and it is an honor for us and an
            >honor for our children..." Relative of the family:..."Every time she heard
            >a
            >bang [she said] 'someone was shot, I hope that next time it will be me, I
            >want to die as a martyr'. [PA TV - Oct. 7, 1998]
            >
            >Mother of Muhammad ["martyred" in the riots]: "...I hope that all my
            >children
            >will be martyrs..." [PA TV - Sept. 9, 1998]
            >�
            >Then there is this transcript of a sermon broadcast over PA TV on August 3,
            >2001:
            >
            >"I heard a youth say, 'Oh, Sheikh, I am now 14 years old. I have 4 more
            >years
            >and then I will go to blow myself up among Allah's enemies, I will blow
            >myself up among the Jews.' " I said to him, 'Allah should let you merit
            >Martyrdom and let me merit Martyrdom'...
            >
            >"All weapons must be aimed at the Jews, at the enemies of Allah, the cursed
            >nation in the Koran, whom the Koran describes as monkeys and pigs,
            >worshippers of the calf and idol worshippers.
            >
            >"Allah shall make the Moslem rule over the Jew, we will blow them up in
            >Hadera, we will blow them up in Tel-Aviv and in Netanya in the
            >righteousness
            >of Allah against this rif-raff, we will fight against them and rule over
            >them
            >until the Jew will hide behind the trees and stones and the tree and stone
            >will say: 'Moslem! Servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, kill him!'
            >
            >"We will enter Jerusalem as conquerors, and Jaffa as conquerors, and Haifa
            >as
            >conquerors and Ashkelon as conquerors, we are certain that the victory is
            >quickly coming... as we bless anyone who rises against a soldier, we bless
            >all those who educate their children to Jihad and to Martyrdom, blessings
            >to
            >he who shot a bullet into the head of a Jew...
            >
            >[The preacher signs off his sermon]
            >"Allah, make for them [the Jews] a black day, like the day of A'ad and
            >Tha'mud! [tribes that were destroyed]
            >Allah, make for them a black day, like the day of A'ad and Tha'mud!
            >Allah, make for them a black day, like the day of A'ad and Tha'mud!"
            >
            >- --
            >All private email sent with PGP encryption. Email for key.
            >Homepage: http://www.macmanusnet.net
            >NMSU Libertarians: http://liberty.macmanusnet.net
            >It's time for Bill of Rights Enforcement!
            >"Bother!" said Pooh, as he pulled the cat off his face.
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          • Kedar Cohen
            There is no military solution to this problem. If what you say is true, there is no negotiated solution to this problem either. What we got here is an
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 10 3:50 PM
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              There is no military solution to this problem. If what you say is true,
              there is no negotiated solution to this problem either. What we got here is
              an impossible situation. There apparently nothing we can humanly do about
              this mess, or is there?

              If what you say is true, then Allah cannot be a God, he has to be a Devil.
              Only a Devil or a Demon would want to destory a whole race of people. So
              what we got here is a metaphysical problem. I doubt very much that Allah is
              a demon, so those people who say they are following the will of Allah, they
              must be mistaken or insane or both. So since there is no military, social
              or economic solution to this mess, we have to look for a metaphysical
              solution. So this is my metaphsical action: I call upon the LORDS OF KARMA
              to exact immediate karmic payback upon the fanactics within palastinian and
              zionist movements that everything in their lives goes crazy until they
              choose to emotionally and mentally grow up and connect to their own
              spiritual nature and seek a moral rational resolution to their differences.
              I also call up LORD MICHAEL, THE HASHMALIM, THE LORDS OF KARMA to bag them
              up and take them to a place where they can be reformed and where they can
              no longer do any harm to anyone else. I call upon GOD ALMIGHTY to bring the
              the political representatives of the Palastinians and Israel and their
              respective peoples to a place of mental and emotional peace and work out a
              moral rational arrangement that satisfies the Palastinian and Israeli
              people. I CALL UPON GOD ALMIGHTY to bring Sharon and Arafat to the
              negotiation table that results in the political recognation of a
              Palastinian State by Israel and the rest of the world. The Palastinian
              charter is revised deleting all refences to the death of all Jewish people
              all over the world. A rational moral arrangement is worked out that
              satisfied Palastine and Israel and their respective people. I thank you God
              for this rational moral resolution. I let go and Let God and so it is.

              At 01:53 PM 04/09/2002 -0600, you wrote:
              > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
              >Hash: SHA1
              >
              >On Tuesday 09 April 2002 02:07 am, Kedar Cohen wrote:
              > > Very funny analysis both of you Keven and Lloyd. What Sharon is doing is
              > > getting me very upset. My reaction is Oy Vey, when are the children of
              > > Abraham going to stop acting like spoiled brats and grow up and work out a
              > > moral rational resolution to their problems with each other?
              >
              >You'll have to ask the so-called "Palestinians" that, don't you think?
              >
              >Then again, it's the "Palestinians", not the Jews, who have:
              >
              >1) stated repeatedly that the total eradication of Israel is their goal;
              >2) stated repeatedly that any "agreements" made that do not include the total
              >eradication of Israel are merely "temporary" agreements; and
              >3) called for the murder of every Jew on earth - not just in Israel
              >
              >
              >"The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Muslims make war against
              >the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and
              >the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, Oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew
              >behind me, come and kill him!'" [Sheikh Muhammed Abd al Hadi La'afi,
              >Responsible for Religious Teaching and Instruction in the Office of the Wakf
              >in the official Palestinian Authorit newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 18, May
              >2001 and 27 April 2001, Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi Palestinian Television in
              >the main Friday sermons on 30 March 2001 and 13 April 2001.]
              >
              >"We the Palestinian nation, our fate from Allah is to be the vanguard in the
              >war against the Jews until the resurrection of the dead, as the prophet
              >Muhammad said: 'The resurrection of the dead will not arrive until you will
              >fight the Jews and kill them... ' We the Palestinians are the vanguard in
              >this undertaking and in this campaign, whether or not we want this..." [Dr.
              >Muhammed Ibrahim Madi, Palestinian Television, 28 July 2000]
              >
              >"Blessed is he who fights Jihad in the name of Allah, blessed is he who [goes
              >on] raids in the name of Allah, blessed is he who dons a vest of explosives
              >on himself or on his children and goes in to the depth of the Jews and says:
              >Allahu Akbar, Blessed be Allah. Like the collapse of the building upon the
              >heads of the Jews in their sinful dance-hall, I ask of Allah that we see the
              >Knesset collapsing on the heads of the Jews." [Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Madi,
              >Friday Sermon, Palestinian TV, June 8, 2001]
              >
              >"The battle with the Jews will surely come... the decisive Muslim victory is
              >coming without a doubt, and the prophet spoke about in more than one Hadith
              >and the Day of resurrection will not come without the victory of the
              >believers [the Muslims] over the descendents of the monkeys and pigs [the
              >Jews] and with their annihilation." [Sheikh Muhammed Abd Al Hadi La'afi,
              >Responsible for Religious Teaching and Instruction in the Office of the Wakf
              >in the official P.A. newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 18, May 2001]
              >
              >"The Jews are the Jews. There never was among them a supporter of peace. They
              >are all liars... the true criminals, the Jewish terrorists, that slaughtered
              >our children, that turned our wives into widows and our children into
              >orphans, and desecrated our holy places. They are terrorists. Therefore it is
              >necessary to slaughter them and murder them, according to the words of
              >Allah... it is forbidden to have mercy in your hearts for the Jews in any
              >place and in any land. Make war on them anyplace that you find yourself. Any
              >place that you encounter them - kill them. Kill the Jews and those among the
              >Americans that are like them... The Jews only understand might. Have no mercy
              >on the Jews, murder them everywhere..." [The preacher Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu
              >Halabiah, a member of the Palestinian Sharianic (Islamic religious law)
              >Rulings Council, and Rector of Advanced Studies, the Islamic University,
              >Palestinian Television, 13 October 2000]
              >
              >"The Islamic Land of Palestine is one and cannot be divided. There is no
              >difference between Haifa and Nablus, between Lod and Ramallah, between
              >Jerusalem and Nazareth. Dividing Palestine into cantons and giving
              >recognition to the occupation is prohibited by Sharia (Islamic religious
              >law), since Palestinian is Wakf [Islamic Trust] for all Muslims in the East
              >and in the West. No one has the right to give it up or to forsake it. The
              >liberation of Palestinian is mandatory obligation for all Muslims and not
              >only for our Palestinian nation." [Shiekh Yuosouf Abu Sneina, Official
              >Preacher of the Al Aqsa Mosque, Palestinian Radio , 30 April 1999]
              >
              >"We are discussing the current problems and when we speak about Jerusalem it
              >doesn't mean that we have forgotten about Hebron or about Jaffa or about
              >Acre....we are speaking about the curent problems that have priority at a
              >certain time. It doesn't mean that we have given up... We have announced a
              >number of times that from a religious point of view Palestine from the sea to
              >the river is Islamic." [Sheikh Ikrima Sabri, The Palestinian Authority
              >appointed Mufti of Jerusalem and Palestine, Palestinian Television, 11
              >January 2001]
              >
              >"Even if agreements were signed [regarding] Gaza and the West Bank, we will
              >not forget Haifa, Acre, Jaffa, the Galilee Triangle, and the Negev. It is
              >only a question of time..." [Dr. Ahmed Abu Halabiah, Palestinian Television,
              >13 October 2000]
              >
              >"It is forbidden for anyone, Arab, Palestinian or Muslim to forgo one grain
              >of soil of the land of Palestine, Jerusalem and Al Aksa ...whoever forgoes
              >even one grain of soil his sin is upon him, and all the sins of the
              >Palestinians, the Arabs and the Muslims, forever and ever..." [Shiekh Yuosouf
              >Abu Sneina, Official Preacher of the Al Aqsa Mosque, Palestinian Television,
              >8 September 2000]
              >
              >"...The Jews gathered from all ends of the earth in our beloved Palestine,
              >from Rosh HaNikra in the north to Eilat in the south...from sea to river, it
              >was all a land of Muslims... Palestine's borders, the promised Palestine, is
              >from the sea to the river..." [Ahmad Abu Halabiya, Palestinian Television, 18
              >August 2000]
              >
              >"All of the agreements entered into [with Israel] are temporary, until the
              >decree comes from Allah and until the destiny from Allah is realized."
              >[Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi., Palestinian Television, 28 July 2000]
              >
              >"...The Muslims and Arabs must stand behind the Palestinian nation, which is
              >the vanguard in the war against Allah's enemies. By the living Allah, the
              >Jews are Islam's enemies in this life time..." [Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu
              >Halabiah, Palestinian Television, 18 August 2000]
              >
              >"There are Hadiths (Islamic traditions attributed to the prophet Mohammed)
              >regarding our struggle against the Jews. And it is given: "The Day of
              >Resurrection will not arrive until the Muslims make war against the Jews and
              >kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and
              >tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, Oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me,
              >come and kill him!' This Hadith clarifies to us the characteristics of the
              >campaign between us and the Jews. The tree and the rock do not say 'Oh,
              >Palestinian', 'Oh Arab', or 'Oh resident of the Middle East'. Rather they
              >say: 'Oh, Moslem, Servant of Allah'" [Dr. Muhammed Madi, Palestinian
              >Television, 30 March 2001]
              >
              >"The victory is coming, the victory is coming, the victory is coming! Allah
              >show us your marvels against the Jews! Show them a black day, like the day of
              >A'ad and Tha'mud! [tribes that were defeated and destroyed]. Because they
              >boasted to us of their strength! Show us the prince against them, show them a
              >black day! Allah, transform them into the Moslems' spoils of war! Allah,
              >transform them into our spoils of war!" [Dr. Muhammed Madi, Palestinian
              >Television, 13 April 2001]
              >
              >...I was hurt by a letter from an injured [rioter] in one of the hospitals
              >where he mentioned that a nurse said "anyone who throws rocks should go to
              >hell!" And I was hurt by several fathers that forbid their older children to
              >participate in the processions, while this is their right. But when anyone of
              >these [fathers] say [to their sons] 'Don't go, and whoever dies is a carcass,
              >well then this is one of the most severe transgressions. Furthermore we are
              >hurt by some who think they are big but are in fact small, who exploit an
              >opportunity to harm the warriors and to mock them. A passive civilian, a
              >passive senior ranking individual, or a lazy official may disregard their
              >duty, but it is forbidden for them to humiliate the warriors or to mock the
              >wounded or to conjure up plots against the field-active generation commanding
              >the Intifada. These destructive, abominable [individuals] harm us more than
              >the bullets of the occupation, because they constitute a fifth column. Our
              >nation must learn a lesson and take them to reckoning later on." [Al Hayat-Al
              >Jadida, 27 October 2000] (Al Hayat-Al Jadida is the official daily newspaper
              >of the Palestinian Authority)
              >
              >"The Martyr Wajdi Al-Hattab (9th grade) responded to the call of Allah and
              >achieved the Martyrdom that he yearned for, so that it would clear the way
              >for the liberation of Al Aksa and Palestine from the defilement of the
              >occupation. He would always say to his friends: 'When I become a Martyr, give
              >out Kannafa [sweet cake]. He always spoke about his uncle who became a Martyr
              >in southern Lebanon, and yearned to become a Martyr like him - and [now] he
              >attained what he yearned for. He reached the highest levels with Allah...
              >[Wajdi's gym teacher relates:] Wajdi asked me to give out Kannafa if he
              >becomes a Martyr... His classmates swore that they would continue in the path
              >of Martyrdom until the liberation of Jerusalem..." [Al Hayat - Al Jadida, 9
              >November 2000]
              >
              >"The danger of injury of the boy Saber Al-Ashkar (aged 18), paralysis and
              >permanent disability, just added to his mother's determination to encourage
              >her sons to participate in the Intifada riots.... and the fact of his injury
              >by a live bullet did not cause her to mourn... She said that she had
              >[previously] lost her older son Iyad, and described him as the first flower
              >that appeared in her life. She is not interested in anything but encouraging
              >her sons to self-sacrifice and Martyrdom for the land of Palestine..." [Al
              >Ayyam 1 November 2000]
              >
              >"A PATV broadcast conducted conversations with 2nd grade school children. An
              >interviewer spoke with a child who had thrown stones [in the riots]:
              >Interviewer: "You threw stones at the army and injured your leg. Will you
              >throw again?"
              >Child: "Yes".
              >Interviewer: "You aren't afraid to die?"
              >Child: [embarrassed, hesitant]
              >Interviewer: [indicates "No" to the child by shaking her head in the negative]
              >Child: "No." [PATV 19/10/00]
              >
              >[Headline]: "The Boy Martyr Karam Al-Kard [age 12] announced of his own death
              >on the walls of his home" [article text] "Prior to his being injured... Karam
              >announced his own death on the walls of his home and attributed to himself
              >Martyrdom and its honor, in his handwriting on the walls. The notice read:
              >'The Al-Kard family announces the death of its courageous Martyr Karam Fat'he
              >Al-Kard..." [Al Hayat - Al Jadida, 30 November 2000]
              >
              >"The Martyr Wajdi [aged 14, said] to his father: 'I will bring you a Shahada
              >(Martyrdom) that you will be proud of for the rest of your life'. His mother
              >says: 'My son is not my son only, he belongs to his noble Palestinian
              >people... One of his friends said that the last words of the Martyr, that he
              >repeated over and over, spoke of the significance of Martyrdom and on
              >becoming a Martyr." [Al Hayat - Al Jadida, 8 November 2000]
              >
              >"[He] sacrificed his son (aged 18) in order to redeem the homeland and
              >Jerusalem. He stated that becoming a Martyr is a tremendous source of pride
              >and a medal on his chest... he added that his son always spoke about
              >martyrdom and his desire to become a Martyr." [Al Hayat - Al Jadida, 9 Nov.
              >2000]
              >
              >The Martyr Muhammad Abu Tahoun wrote down his final words on his notebook:
              >'The Martyrs will attain Paradise, and I will be with them, Allah
              >willing...'". [Al Hayat - Al Jadida, 9 November 2000]
              >
              >"The father [of Mohammed Hiza' Halas, 23]: ... [He has] great pride that his
              >progeny has become a Martyr .... With regard to his mother, she says that her
              >offspring wished to become a Martyr and she anticipated it." [Al Hayat - Al
              >Jadida, 2 November 2000]
              >
              >"Our blood is a sign of our fighting for our precious Palestine" [A teacher,
              >next to pupils on Palestinian Television, 2 November 2000]
              >
              >"What pushes our children and youth to the arenas of death?... [Ramadan Saadi
              >Abd Rabbo, an injured 13-year-old, said:] 'my goal is not to be injured, but
              >rather something higher: Martyrdom.'" [Al Hayat - Al Jadida, 8 November 2000]
              >
              >"The wounded 11-year-old, Amr Qarut, wants to win the honor of a Martyr's
              >death... and he insists on continuing the [violent] struggle." [Al Hayat - Al
              >Jadida, 6 November 2000]
              >
              >"The wounded Sa'ed Awad Allah [aged 11], from the Jaballiya [refugee] camp
              >said: We are all potential Martyrs for Jerusalem and the Homeland" [Al Hayat
              >- - Al Jadida, 6 November 2000]
              >
              >"We must battle until we achieve peace on our own and until our blood will
              >not be spilled for naught, we must battle and die in order to attain all that
              >we want." [8-year-old girl Halah Badir] [Al Ayyam, 2 November 2000]
              >
              >"[22-year-old Tauzem Musa Abu Def's] brother... feels honor and pride from
              >his brother's becoming a Martyr, ...and added that he intends to continue on
              >the path started by his brother." [Al Ayyam, 2 November 2000]
              >
              >" I will take my soul in my hand and toss it into the abyss of death. And
              >then either life that will gladden friends or death that will anger the
              >enemy. The honorable soul has two objectives: Achieving death and honor."
              >'Song of the Martyr' recited by schoolgirls. (the poem appears in 5th, 6th
              >and 12th grade PA school books) [PATV, 27 October 2000]
              >
              >Narrator: "... the heroine was shot ...and her pure blood flowing and her
              >pure spirit joyously going to her creator...." Girl's Mother: "I asked: who
              >is she that died? She told me - 'it's your daughter.' I said: 'Thank Allah,
              >thank Allah. We have a right to liberate our homeland and we will liberate
              >it. It is our honor to fall ... She would say "it doesn't matter, I will die
              >for the redemption of the homeland", meaning - I want to die for the
              >redemption of the homeland... Intisar fell and it is an honor for us and an
              >honor for our children..." Relative of the family:..."Every time she heard a
              >bang [she said] 'someone was shot, I hope that next time it will be me, I
              >want to die as a martyr'. [PA TV - Oct. 7, 1998]
              >
              >Mother of Muhammad ["martyred" in the riots]: "...I hope that all my children
              >will be martyrs..." [PA TV - Sept. 9, 1998]
              >
              >Then there is this transcript of a sermon broadcast over PA TV on August 3,
              >2001:
              >
              >"I heard a youth say, 'Oh, Sheikh, I am now 14 years old. I have 4 more years
              >and then I will go to blow myself up among Allah's enemies, I will blow
              >myself up among the Jews.' " I said to him, 'Allah should let you merit
              >Martyrdom and let me merit Martyrdom'...
              >
              >"All weapons must be aimed at the Jews, at the enemies of Allah, the cursed
              >nation in the Koran, whom the Koran describes as monkeys and pigs,
              >worshippers of the calf and idol worshippers.
              >
              >"Allah shall make the Moslem rule over the Jew, we will blow them up in
              >Hadera, we will blow them up in Tel-Aviv and in Netanya in the righteousness
              >of Allah against this rif-raff, we will fight against them and rule over them
              >until the Jew will hide behind the trees and stones and the tree and stone
              >will say: 'Moslem! Servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, kill him!'
              >
              >"We will enter Jerusalem as conquerors, and Jaffa as conquerors, and Haifa as
              >conquerors and Ashkelon as conquerors, we are certain that the victory is
              >quickly coming... as we bless anyone who rises against a soldier, we bless
              >all those who educate their children to Jihad and to Martyrdom, blessings to
              >he who shot a bullet into the head of a Jew...
              >
              >[The preacher signs off his sermon]
              >"Allah, make for them [the Jews] a black day, like the day of A'ad and
              >Tha'mud! [tribes that were destroyed]
              >Allah, make for them a black day, like the day of A'ad and Tha'mud!
              >Allah, make for them a black day, like the day of A'ad and Tha'mud!"
              >
              >- --
              >All private email sent with PGP encryption. Email for key.
              >Homepage: http://www.macmanusnet.net
              >NMSU Libertarians: http://liberty.macmanusnet.net
              >It's time for Bill of Rights Enforcement!
              >"Bother!" said Pooh, as he pulled the cat off his face.
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            • Amthyst114@aol.com
              In a message dated 4/11/02 7:24:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... Moroccan ... historical ... I m sorry that you have difficulty understanding basic concepts.
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 11 6:18 PM
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                In a message dated 4/11/02 7:24:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                kevin_carson@... writes:

                > They certainly have as much right to call themselves a nation as the
                > Zionists have to create a blood-and-soil myth of the "Jewish People." How
                > much sense does it make to claim that a blond-haired Yiddish speaker, a
                > swarthy Ladino speaker, a black-skinned Ethiopian Jew, and a brown
                Moroccan
                > Jew are descended from ancient Hebrews? The Zionist racialist myth of
                > claiming rights based on descent from ancient Hebrews bears less
                historical
                > scrutiny than Mussolini's myth of the resurrected Roman Empire. The
                > modern-day Palestinian Arab probably has more actual genetic material from
                > the ancient Hebrews

                I'm sorry that you have difficulty understanding basic concepts. DNA
                tests have been done - there are recessive genes that prove that while more
                diverse things like hair and eye color can and do drift over the centuries,
                there is more genetic commonalities between a fair-skinned Jew from the
                Ukraine and a dark Jew from Yemen, than there is between some Muslim Arabs,
                and the Muslim Arabs from two villages over.
                Your argument is based on a blatant untruth - the idea that Jews are
                recent interlopers, when in actuality they have always been there, in greater
                or lesser numbers, despite the shifting of empires over the centuries, have
                somehow stolen land from the so-called Palestinians, who are a recent people.
                The Palestinians, Arafat's romanticism aside, have no historical
                connection to where they are now squatting. They are the ones with "no
                history." They are made homeless and continually victimized by the despicable
                actions of their neighboring Arab nations.

                Sincerely,
                Jordanna
              • Robert G. Weber, Jr.
                Message text written by INTERNET:LeftLibertarian@yahoogroups.com ... ************************************************* Excellent analysis by whoever your are
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 11 10:35 PM
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                  Message text written by INTERNET:LeftLibertarian@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  *************************************************

                  Excellent analysis by whoever your are (SEK3, I suspect).
                  No name on the posting.

                  Bob Weber

                  [Not me, Bob! I haven't even read it yet. I have always been able to find the name of whoever submitted a posting. Is that just because I'm the List editor, er, Moderator? Anyone else getting "anonymous" postings from this eList? ---SEK3]
                  *************************************************


                  That's quite a long list of quotes, but since it doesn't include three
                  million people, I doubt if they're (severally or collectively) authorized
                  to speak for the Palestinian people.

                  But I wouldn't be surprised if these sentiments are pretty widespread.
                  If the Nazis had won WWII, and France were presently an occupied country,
                  with hundreds of "Free French" expatriates in refugee camps, I imagine the
                  Resistance today would be using some pretty ethnocentric rhetoric against
                  the Germans. And there might even be a few people strapping explosives to
                  themselves and walking into the local Biergarten. Growing up in refugee
                  camps does some pretty ugly things to the human psyche. I recall reading
                  that a sizable minority of Americans--around 30%, I think--favored
                  ethnically cleansing the Japanese Home Islands in 1945.

                  To take the Resistance analogy a little farther, if modern France was a
                  Nazi-occupied country, CNN and the other corporate media whores would be
                  tamely tagging along where the IDF gave them permission to go, and
                  obligingly filming what the Israelis wanted them to see. Which means TV
                  viewers in America would see a lot of pictures of kids throwing rocks, and
                  scenes of devastation after suicide bombings; but they wouldn't see the
                  brutality of an entire population being subjected to house-to-house
                  searches, detention, and even torture, without due process of law.

                  The irony of it is, European-style anti-semitism was almost unknown in the
                  Middle East until the beginning of large-scale Zionist settlement.
                  Traditionally, Judaism was viewed as a sort of religious heresy (qualifying

                  the Jews as "People of the Book") but the disapproval for the most part
                  lacked any virulent racialist overtones. It wasn't until the 1920s and
                  1930s that Arabic translations of "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" started
                  flying off the shelves.

                  And I wouldn't be surprised if you could find just as many similar quotes
                  from the fundamentalist settlers on the West Bank about exterminating the
                  "Canaanites" from "Judea and Samaria."

                  And don't forget the resort to terrorism by the Irgun and Stern Gang in
                  their war of national liberation against the British; it included terror
                  against Palestinian civilians as well. BTW, I think any meaningful
                  definition of terrorism would apply to any use of force against civilians to
                  frighten or demoralize a population, regardless of whether the violence was

                  committed by individuals, political organizations, or states. When a state
                  bombs water treatment facilities (like the U.S. in Iraq), or deliberately
                  targets the civilian infrastructure, terrorizes entire populations of
                  civilians, and shoots at media and Red Cross people trying to help, it's
                  pretty clear the "collateral damage" isn't accidental. It's cold-blooded
                  state policy. The butcher of Sabra knows exactly what he's doing.

                  I assume your putting "Palestinian" in quotes has something to do with the
                  official Zionist doctrine that there is no Palestinian people, and that the
                  proper homeland for them is in Jordan. It's true that before the Zionist
                  colonization of Palestine, the Palestinians had a pretty undeveloped sense
                  of national identity as a people distinct from the rest of greater Syria.
                  But they developed that sense of identity pretty quickly under foreign
                  occupation. Coupling that with the fact that they live within a
                  geographically defined area, I'd say that if they call themselves a people,
                  they are one.

                  They certainly have as much right to call themselves a nation as the
                  Zionists have to create a blood-and-soil myth of the "Jewish People." How
                  much sense does it make to claim that a blond-haired Yiddish speaker, a
                  swarthy Ladino speaker, a black-skinned Ethiopian Jew, and a brown Moroccan
                  Jew are descended from ancient Hebrews? The Zionist racialist myth of
                  claiming rights based on descent from ancient Hebrews bears less historical
                  scrutiny than Mussolini's myth of the resurrected Roman Empire. The
                  modern-day Palestinian Arab probably has more actual genetic material from
                  the ancient Hebrews. Practicing a later variant of the same religion as an
                  ancient people doesn't entitle you to a national homeland.

                  The neocons have argued recently that anyone who has a problem with Israel
                  is by definition anti-Semitic, for the same reason that somebody who hates
                  France (the only French national state) is anti-French. Well, I think the
                  Romany are entitled to a homeland; and a good place for it would be
                  Manhattan, with its capital right about where the offices of "Commentary"
                  magazine are now. And anyone opposed to a Romany homeland must be
                  anti-Gypsy.
                  <
                • Kevin Carson
                  We ve recently been chided for taking up space with off-topic Middle Eastern stuff, but I can t resist asking a some brief questions. In greater or lesser
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 12 7:18 AM
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                    We've recently been chided for taking up space with off-topic Middle Eastern
                    stuff, but I can't resist asking a some brief questions.

                    "In greater or lesser numbers" is a big qualifier. How MANY Jews were in
                    Palestine in, say, 1900, as opposed to 1940? I am aware that there were
                    sizable Jewish communities attached to the holy places before that (and the
                    Jordanian expulsion of them from Jerusalem was another injustice, by the
                    way)--but I suspect the absolute numbers were swelled considerably by the
                    Zionist settlement from Europe.

                    And what exactly is your evidence for the claim that Palestinians are recent
                    squatters in Palestine? It reminds me of the official historical myth of
                    another right-wing pariah state, South Africa, that the Afrikaners got there
                    first and then the Bantu came in.

                    Incidentally, I remember reading about a genetic study that found
                    similarities between native Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Arabs.

                    I usually manage to understand basic concepts (with some off days), but I
                    like to see some empirical evidence behind them.

                    >From: Amthyst114@...
                    >Reply-To: LeftLibertarian@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: LeftLibertarian@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: Re: [LeftLibertarian] Sharon Saving Agent Arafat
                    >Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 21:18:12 EDT
                    >
                    >In a message dated 4/11/02 7:24:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                    >kevin_carson@... writes:
                    >
                    > > They certainly have as much right to call themselves a nation as the
                    > > Zionists have to create a blood-and-soil myth of the "Jewish People."
                    >How
                    > > much sense does it make to claim that a blond-haired Yiddish speaker, a
                    > > swarthy Ladino speaker, a black-skinned Ethiopian Jew, and a brown
                    >Moroccan
                    > > Jew are descended from ancient Hebrews? The Zionist racialist myth of
                    > > claiming rights based on descent from ancient Hebrews bears less
                    >historical
                    > > scrutiny than Mussolini's myth of the resurrected Roman Empire. The
                    > > modern-day Palestinian Arab probably has more actual genetic material
                    >from
                    > > the ancient Hebrews
                    >
                    > I'm sorry that you have difficulty understanding basic concepts. DNA
                    >tests have been done - there are recessive genes that prove that while more
                    >diverse things like hair and eye color can and do drift over the centuries,
                    >there is more genetic commonalities between a fair-skinned Jew from the
                    >Ukraine and a dark Jew from Yemen, than there is between some Muslim Arabs,
                    >and the Muslim Arabs from two villages over.
                    > Your argument is based on a blatant untruth - the idea that Jews are
                    >recent interlopers, when in actuality they have always been there, in
                    >greater
                    >or lesser numbers, despite the shifting of empires over the centuries, have
                    >somehow stolen land from the so-called Palestinians, who are a recent
                    >people.
                    > The Palestinians, Arafat's romanticism aside, have no historical
                    >connection to where they are now squatting. They are the ones with "no
                    >history." They are made homeless and continually victimized by the
                    >despicable
                    >actions of their neighboring Arab nations.
                    >
                    >Sincerely,
                    >Jordanna
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >Community email addresses:
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                  • Victor Levis
                    ... You really don t get it, do you? Few, if any, of the people quoted grew up in refugee camps. You have it backwards. Israel is forced to deal harshly with
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 12 11:29 PM
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                      At 10:46 PM 4/10/2002 +0000, Kevin Carson wrote:

                      >That's quite a long list of quotes, but since it doesn't include three
                      >million people, I doubt if they're (severally or collectively) authorized to
                      >speak for the Palestinian people.
                      >
                      >But I wouldn't be surprised if these sentiments are pretty widespread.
                      >If the Nazis had won WWII, and France were presently an occupied country,
                      >with hundreds of "Free French" expatriates in refugee camps, I imagine the
                      >Resistance today would be using some pretty ethnocentric rhetoric against
                      >the Germans. And there might even be a few people strapping explosives to
                      >themselves and walking into the local Biergarten. Growing up in refugee
                      >camps does some pretty ugly things to the human psyche.

                      You really don't get it, do you? Few, if any, of the people quoted grew up
                      in refugee camps.

                      You have it backwards. Israel is forced to deal harshly with the threats
                      from people near its borders. Israel does not deal harshly with Egypt and
                      Jordan, who have ceased official hostilities against Israel.

                      Victor Levis


                      Freedom of Choice.......Responsibility for Actions.......Respect for Others
                    • Kevin Carson
                      ... No, they just grew up in their own country, under foreign occupation. ... So everything the Israelis do, by definition, is defensive--regardless of how the
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 13 11:41 AM
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                        >From: Victor Levis <viclevis@...>
                        >Reply-To: LeftLibertarian@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: LeftLibertarian@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: Re: [LeftLibertarian] Sharon Saving Agent Arafat
                        >Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 02:29:13 -0400
                        >
                        >At 10:46 PM 4/10/2002 +0000, Kevin Carson wrote:
                        >
                        > >That's quite a long list of quotes, but since it doesn't include three
                        > >million people, I doubt if they're (severally or collectively) authorized
                        >to
                        > >speak for the Palestinian people.
                        > >
                        > >But I wouldn't be surprised if these sentiments are pretty widespread.
                        > >If the Nazis had won WWII, and France were presently an occupied country,
                        > >with hundreds of "Free French" expatriates in refugee camps, I imagine
                        >the
                        > >Resistance today would be using some pretty ethnocentric rhetoric against
                        > >the Germans. And there might even be a few people strapping explosives
                        >to
                        > >themselves and walking into the local Biergarten. Growing up in refugee
                        > >camps does some pretty ugly things to the human psyche.
                        >
                        >You really don't get it, do you? Few, if any, of the people quoted grew up
                        >in refugee camps.

                        No, they just grew up in their own country, under foreign occupation.

                        >You have it backwards. Israel is forced to deal harshly with the threats
                        >from people near its borders. Israel does not deal harshly with Egypt and
                        >Jordan, who have ceased official hostilities against Israel.

                        So everything the Israelis do, by definition, is defensive--regardless of
                        how the Zionist state came to be there in the first place. The existing
                        system of power is a given, and resistance to it is, again by definition,
                        aggressive. By your logic, if the Germans had won WW II, the Nazi occupation
                        regime in France would be saying it is "forced to deal harshly with the
                        threats from people near its borders."

                        And by the way, by these same rules the Zionists were "aggressors" against
                        the British mandate, and the Brits were entitled to do anything necessary
                        because they were "forced to defend themselves."

                        Your argument sounds a lot like Jean Kirkpatrick and the other neocons who
                        always repeated the party line against "moral equivalence": "The Soviets are
                        the aggressors, and we're just defending the free world. They are the
                        arsonists, and we are the firemen."

                        And even stipulating that the Israelis are just "forced to defend
                        themselves," that doesn't justify Sharon's specific course of action. He is
                        deliberately targeting the water system and other civilian infrastructure,
                        and causing high casualties. At the same time, his thugs shoot at
                        journalists to make sure there are no witnesses, and shoot at anyone trying
                        to bring humanitarian aid to a civilian population that is out of food,
                        water and medicine. That is state TERRORISM. Again, the Butcher of Sabra
                        knows exactly what he is doing.

                        >Victor Levis
                        >
                        >
                        >Freedom of Choice.......Responsibility for Actions.......Respect for Others
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                      • Robert G. Weber, Jr.
                        Message text written by INTERNET:LeftLibertarian@yahoogroups.com ... In a message dated 4/11/02 7:24:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... How ... Moroccan ...
                        Message 11 of 13 , Apr 13 8:49 PM
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                          Message text written by INTERNET:LeftLibertarian@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          In a message dated 4/11/02 7:24:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                          kevin_carson@... writes:

                          > They certainly have as much right to call themselves a nation as the
                          > Zionists have to create a blood-and-soil myth of the "Jewish People."
                          How
                          > much sense does it make to claim that a blond-haired Yiddish speaker, a
                          > swarthy Ladino speaker, a black-skinned Ethiopian Jew, and a brown
                          Moroccan
                          > Jew are descended from ancient Hebrews? The Zionist racialist myth of
                          > claiming rights based on descent from ancient Hebrews bears less
                          historical
                          > scrutiny than Mussolini's myth of the resurrected Roman Empire. The
                          > modern-day Palestinian Arab probably has more actual genetic material
                          from
                          > the ancient Hebrews

                          I'm sorry that you have difficulty understanding basic concepts. DNA
                          tests have been done - there are recessive genes that prove that while more

                          diverse things like hair and eye color can and do drift over the centuries,

                          there is more genetic commonalities between a fair-skinned Jew from the
                          Ukraine and a dark Jew from Yemen, than there is between some Muslim Arabs,

                          and the Muslim Arabs from two villages over.
                          Your argument is based on a blatant untruth - the idea that Jews are
                          recent interlopers, when in actuality they have always been there, in
                          greater
                          or lesser numbers, despite the shifting of empires over the centuries, have

                          somehow stolen land from the so-called Palestinians, who are a recent
                          people.
                          The Palestinians, Arafat's romanticism aside, have no historical
                          connection to where they are now squatting. They are the ones with "no
                          history." They are made homeless and continually victimized by the
                          despicable
                          actions of their neighboring Arab nations.

                          Sincerely,
                          Jordanna<

                          ***************************

                          As Mike Holmes pointed out, at the level of libertarian philosophy
                          our only concern is with govenment policy in the matter. Although Holmes
                          would probably disagree, I say the only response by anyone anywhere close
                          to being a libertarian is "Get Out!" U.S. libertarians should be demanding
                          the Empire get out of the Middle East, and everywhere else. Israeli
                          libertarians should be demanding that Israel get out of the West Bank, and
                          cease all support for the Israeli colonies established therein.

                          Nonetheless, the topic of DNA research into our ancestry is a
                          fascinating subject. Here is the scoop. Because we reproduce sexually,
                          the genetic deck gets reshuffled every generation, hence sorting out the
                          ancestry of any person from their gene sequence, beyond a few generations
                          becomes an impossible task. It is impossible, from looking at the gene
                          sequence of a particular person, to even specify the race of that person.
                          However, within an isolated population certain mutations within the genome
                          which serve as markers will tend to accumulate. But not all within that
                          population will carry each marker and there is no way to tell if a
                          particular marker came from within the population or from outside. When a
                          population where there is a lot of migration or when one samples a large
                          area (like the Middle East!) markers will tend to diffuse away.

                          There are two exceptions to this. A person's mitochondrial DNA is
                          inherited strictly from the mother, and a male's Y chromosome comes
                          strictly from his father. Therefore, the mitochondrial DNA is a record of
                          the pure maternal line of any person, and the Y chromosome is a record of
                          the pure paternal line of any male. (But there's no independent record of
                          the paternal contribution to your mother's DNA in general, and no
                          independent record of the maternal contribution of your father's DNA in
                          general.) Because mitochondrial DNA mutates at a slow and uniform rate, it
                          works for tracing the various ancient maternal lines.

                          As it turns out, better than 95% of the European population is
                          descended from just seven pure maternal lines, seven women who lived
                          between about 50,000 years ago to about 10,000 years ago. The seven
                          maternal lines are fairly evenly, though not uniformly, distributed
                          throughout all of Europe. (There are some regional variations in
                          frequency). These seven women were all descended from an African woman,
                          given the name of "Lara" by geneticist Bryan Sykes, who also analyzed the
                          DNA of "Oetzi", the frozen mummy found the in Alps about ten years ago.
                          "Lara", in turn, is one of the 14 pure maternal lines found amongst
                          Africans, the 14 African maternal lines, in turn, all going back to
                          "Mitochondrial Eve" who lived about 150,000 years ago, from whom every
                          human's pure maternal line comes.

                          The second most numerous maternal line among Europeans, about one
                          in every six, is a woman called by Sykes "Jasmine" who lived in the Middle
                          East about 10,000 years ago. Jasmine is also the maternal ancestor of
                          almost half of all Bedouin Arabs.

                          I don't know of any studies done on European Jews or Middle Eastern
                          Jews but I suspect that the maternal lines of Middle Eastern Jews are very
                          similar to Bedouin Arabs. European Jews, I would suspect, look similar to
                          Europeans in general, but with a slightly higher percentage of "Jasmine".

                          The genetics of Arabs and Jews HAS become a matter of political
                          contention. The scientific journal, Human Immunology, ran an study by
                          Spanish geneticist Professor Antonio Arnaiz-Villena, of Complutense
                          University in Madrid, which showed little genetic difference between
                          Middle Eastern Jews and Palestinian Arabs. So much heat was put on the
                          journal that it retracted the article, urged those who had received the
                          issue to rip out the offending article (!!!), and pulled it from their
                          website. Sounds like they were really scared. See the story at:

                          http://www.observer.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4307083,00.html



                          Bob Weber
                        • Victor Levis
                          ... Oh, so you are switching your excuses now? The quotations listed earlier in the thread came from Arabs claiming that ALL of Palestine , from the sea to
                          Message 12 of 13 , Apr 13 10:08 PM
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                            At 06:41 PM 4/13/2002 +0000, Kevin Carson wrote:

                            >>From: Victor Levis <viclevis@...>
                            >>Reply-To: LeftLibertarian@yahoogroups.com
                            >>To: LeftLibertarian@yahoogroups.com
                            >>Subject: Re: [LeftLibertarian] Sharon Saving Agent Arafat
                            >>Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 02:29:13 -0400
                            >>
                            >>At 10:46 PM 4/10/2002 +0000, Kevin Carson wrote:
                            >>
                            >> >That's quite a long list of quotes, but since it doesn't include three
                            >> >million people, I doubt if they're (severally or collectively) authorized
                            >>to
                            >> >speak for the Palestinian people.
                            >> >
                            >> >But I wouldn't be surprised if these sentiments are pretty widespread.
                            >> >If the Nazis had won WWII, and France were presently an occupied country,
                            >> >with hundreds of "Free French" expatriates in refugee camps, I imagine
                            >>the
                            >> >Resistance today would be using some pretty ethnocentric rhetoric against
                            >> >the Germans. And there might even be a few people strapping explosives
                            >>to
                            >> >themselves and walking into the local Biergarten. Growing up in refugee
                            >> >camps does some pretty ugly things to the human psyche.
                            >>
                            >>You really don't get it, do you? Few, if any, of the people quoted grew up
                            >>in refugee camps.
                            >
                            >No, they just grew up in their own country, under foreign occupation.

                            Oh, so you are switching your excuses now?

                            The quotations listed earlier in the thread came from Arabs claiming that
                            ALL of "Palestine", from the sea to the river, is reserved for Muslims. Of
                            course such fascists would consider non-Muslims living their to be foreigners.

                            However, they were not occupiers. When Israel was formed, non-Jews had all
                            the rights of Jews in the country, including freedom of religion. Israeli
                            citizens could choose their day of rest, something not permitted to
                            Canadians, then OR NOW! Also, the towns under Israeli sovereignty were
                            almost all majority Jewish, while the towns under Palestinian control were
                            almost all majority Muslim. But the receiprocity stopped there. No civil
                            rights were guaranteed to those to be under Muslim rule.


                            >>You have it backwards. Israel is forced to deal harshly with the threats
                            >>from people near its borders. Israel does not deal harshly with Egypt and
                            >>Jordan, who have ceased official hostilities against Israel.
                            >
                            >So everything the Israelis do, by definition, is defensive--regardless of
                            >how the Zionist state came to be there in the first place. The existing
                            >system of power is a given, and resistance to it is, again by definition,
                            >aggressive. By your logic, if the Germans had won WW II, the Nazi occupation
                            >regime in France would be saying it is "forced to deal harshly with the
                            >threats from people near its borders."
                            >
                            >And by the way, by these same rules the Zionists were "aggressors" against
                            >the British mandate, and the Brits were entitled to do anything necessary
                            >because they were "forced to defend themselves."
                            >
                            >Your argument sounds a lot like Jean Kirkpatrick and the other neocons who
                            >always repeated the party line against "moral equivalence": "The Soviets are
                            >the aggressors, and we're just defending the free world. They are the
                            >arsonists, and we are the firemen."
                            >
                            >And even stipulating that the Israelis are just "forced to defend
                            >themselves," that doesn't justify Sharon's specific course of action. He is
                            >deliberately targeting the water system and other civilian infrastructure,
                            >and causing high casualties. At the same time, his thugs shoot at
                            >journalists to make sure there are no witnesses, and shoot at anyone trying
                            >to bring humanitarian aid to a civilian population that is out of food,
                            >water and medicine. That is state TERRORISM. Again, the Butcher of Sabra
                            >knows exactly what he is doing.

                            This latest intifada was sparked by a Jewish man walking on the Temple
                            Mount. No intifada, no terror against Muslims living in Muslim nations, was
                            ever committed because Muslims visited Al-Aqsa.

                            Ariel Sharon is certainly acting forcefully. And it would be a good idea
                            if he made the humanitarian gestures that the US made while overrunning
                            Afghanistan.

                            However, the latest violence against civilians was begun when Ehud Barak was
                            Prime Minister. Not everything is Sharon's fault.

                            Victor Levis


                            Freedom of Choice.......Responsibility for Actions.......Respect for Others
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