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Re: procession etc.

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  • Cn. Tullius Grandis
    Ad fabulam quaerendam is not only correct, it s the best way to express this idea in Latin. Ad fabulam quaerendum , using the gerund rather than the
    Message 1 of 85 , Dec 1, 2007
      "Ad fabulam quaerendam" is not only correct, it's the best way to
      express this idea in Latin.

      "Ad fabulam quaerendum", using the gerund rather than the gerundive,
      is also possible. Here "fabulam" is the object of "quaerendum", not
      of the preposition "ad". However, Roman authors tended to avoid
      this construction except in specific cases. Allen and Greenough
      say: "The gerund with a direct object is practically limited to the
      Genitive and the Ablative (without a preposition); even in these
      cases the gerundive is commoner."

      I don't recall offhand any examples of a gerund with an objective
      genitive, like your "fabulae quaerendum". This may work in English
      (e.g., "the reading of poetry"), but it doesn't look grammatical to
      me in Latin, and it's not mentioned in the grammars I consulted
      (Gildersleeve and Lodge say, "As a verbal form, the Gerund, like the
      Infinitive, takes the same case as the verb."). Do you have
      citations?

      -Cn.

      --- In LatinChat-L@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Weimer"
      <Christopher.M.Weimer@...> wrote:
      >
      > Why isn't quaerendam right? I've seen that construction over and
      over
      > again, i.e. ad + noun + gerundive. If you were to change it to
      > quaerendum, then it would be "ad fabulae quaerendum" or more
      often "ad
      > quaerendum fabulae".
      >
      > However, good Ciceronian Latin would prefer:
      >
      > Senex quaerens fabulam legi facile (or faciliter) a puero tabernam
      > librariam intravit. (Romans didn't have bookstores, I do not
      believe)
      >
      > Or literally, "The old men, seeking a story to be easily read by a
      > child, entered the book-tavern."
      >
      > Chris Weimer
      >
      > --- In LatinChat-L@yahoogroups.com, "satvrninvs" <satvrninvs@>
      wrote:
      > >
      > > Nothing wrong with your phrase, except it should be
      > > "fabulam quaerendum," not "quaerendam," and "a
      > > puero." "Ab" would not be incorrect, but
      > > unnecessary. Or you might say, "...quae puero facile
      > > legenda esset." Puero in the dative here. Ablative
      > > of agent refers to a person; instrument to a thing.
      > > So since "pneumati" is neuter, "spiritus dei" might
      > > be considered a thing, not a person. in which case
      > > the ablative of instrument would be correct.
      > > As to "procession," Apuleius uses various words:
      > > festiva spectacula, pompa, oblectationes ludicrae.
      > > The one that seems to best convey what you're
      > > looKing for is "discursus religiosus."
      > >
      >
    • chjones60056
      ... I don t think it s grammatically incorrect, but in my experience the dative of the gerund is more common in prose with adjectives and nouns (and it s far
      Message 85 of 85 , Dec 18, 2007
        --- In LatinChat-L@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pkoden69@...> wrote:
        > Finally, I was read about the dative of the gerund can be used with
        > adjectives such as idoeneus. Can tha ad + gerund constuction be used
        > with an noun or adjective.
        >
        > In John 6: 52 of the Vulgate the ad constuction is used with the noun
        >
        > "litigabant ergo Iudaei ad invicem dicentes quomodo potest hic nobis
        > carnem suam dare ad manducandum"
        >
        > Can one say:
        >
        > "Aqua (or lympha) ex hoc flumine (or fluvio) non est idonea ad
        > bibiendum." instead of "...idonea bibiendo" ?

        I don't think it's grammatically incorrect, but in my experience the
        dative of the gerund is more common in prose with adjectives and nouns
        (and it's far more common in poetry than in prose). _Ad_ with
        gerund (or gerundive construction) is typically a direct substitute for
        a final clause.
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